Jeremy Bamber Forum

OTHER HIGH PROFILE CASES => Other high profile cases => Topic started by: Steve_uk on January 11, 2021, 04:47:PM

Title: Should Lisa Montgomery be executed?
Post by: Steve_uk on January 11, 2021, 04:47:PM
She was given the death sentence for a most heinous crime (viewer discretion is advised and not for the squeamish) committed in Skidmore, Missouri in 2004. Is there a principle at stake here that if found sane you can be liable for execution, maybe you are against the death penalty on the statute book or are there mitigating circumstances for every individual who commits crime, however unspeakable it may be?

If President Trump has his way she will be executed tomorrow at Haute Terre, Indiana. https://www.pbs.org/video/a-mothers-justice-the-trials-of-lisa-montgomery-luo5in/
Title: Re: Should Lisa Montgomery be executed?
Post by: guest29835 on January 11, 2021, 05:07:PM
In my view she should be executed and I hope that she dies tomorrow.
Title: Re: Should Lisa Montgomery be executed?
Post by: Steve_uk on January 11, 2021, 05:30:PM
In my view she should be executed and I hope that she dies tomorrow.
I agree, but it does beg the question whether there are ever exculpatory circumstances in a capital crime. https://youtu.be/nfpVhtZBRFM
Title: Re: Should Lisa Montgomery be executed?
Post by: guest29835 on January 11, 2021, 06:26:PM
I agree, but it does beg the question whether there are ever exculpatory circumstances in a capital crime. https://youtu.be/nfpVhtZBRFM

If we define capital homicide as premeditated murder, then the range of circumstances that could exculpate an offender of moral blame in spite of legal guilt must be vanishingly small.  I suppose a mercy killing could be morally-condonable, if the subject is in genuine pain and distress and strongly wants to die.  Such killings are sometimes charged as murder.

There are certainly mitigating circumstances, though, that could justify commuting a death sentence, and here the mitigation is strong: brain damage, a psychophysiological disorder, and a history of abuse.  However, I am of the view that those factors have to be balanced against the brutality of the crime.  This isn't petty theft she is convicted of.  She did what she did.  She does deserve to die. 

The only point of regret is that she was convicted back in 2007, which means she has spent the last 13 years on death row.  In my view, that is wrong because it makes a mockery of the sentence and is an assault on the victim's dignity; it is also cruel to hold somebody in close confinement (normally death row is akin to maximum security) for very many years.  No matter what the offender has done, he or she is still a human being.   
Title: Re: Should Lisa Montgomery be executed?
Post by: Steve_uk on January 11, 2021, 07:18:PM
I suppose the lawyers would say she is receiving due process. Nobody is arguing that she should ever walk the streets a free woman again. The choice is between lifelong imprisonment, possibly in some kind of mental facility, or being killed by lethal injection.
Title: Re: Should Lisa Montgomery be executed?
Post by: Steve_uk on January 11, 2021, 07:21:PM
I thought they would have adjudicated on the state of her mental health a long time ago. https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/crime/article248409810.html
Title: Re: Should Lisa Montgomery be executed?
Post by: guest29835 on January 12, 2021, 02:46:AM
I suppose the lawyers would say she is receiving due process.

It's not due process.  Due process is when the courts guard the legal rights of the accused.  One thing to admire about the American criminal justice system is the way that due process has retained its vitality, but in the same way that it isn't always a practical reality due to abuses such as plea bargaining, etc., the principle can also be over-stretched.  This woman has had both procedural and substantive due process.  She's had her day in court and received a fair hearing.  She has had an opportunity to appeal.  The delays are down to a reluctance on the part of the system to follow-through on the penalty that justice demands.
Title: Re: Should Lisa Montgomery be executed?
Post by: nugnug on January 12, 2021, 12:22:PM
did she have those problems when she comited the crime or develop than later.
Title: Re: Should Lisa Montgomery be executed?
Post by: Steve_uk on January 12, 2021, 07:54:PM
It's not due process.  Due process is when the courts guard the legal rights of the accused.  One thing to admire about the American criminal justice system is the way that due process has retained its vitality, but in the same way that it isn't always a practical reality due to abuses such as plea bargaining, etc., the principle can also be over-stretched.  This woman has had both procedural and substantive due process.  She's had her day in court and received a fair hearing.  She has had an opportunity to appeal.  The delays are down to a reluctance on the part of the system to follow-through on the penalty that justice demands.
Well I would agree that the process of executing a Death Row inmate is far too lengthy. The prime candidate to my mind is Darlie Routier: if she doesn't die by lethal injection the death penalty punishment falls into disrepute.

Isn't the Lisa Montgomery case still due process though? Her final appeal would be for clemency from Donald Trump (she is due to be executed tonight 11pm GMT), which obviously is not going to succeed.

I don't know how this organization has got involved in the case but it has, so I would say there is still a process which is to be acknowledged by those charged with carrying the punishment out. http://www.oas.org/en/iachr/decisions/pdf/2020/91-20MC1048-20-US.pdf
Title: Re: Should Lisa Montgomery be executed?
Post by: Steve_uk on January 12, 2021, 08:03:PM
did she have those problems when she comited the crime or develop than later.
Who knows when her problems started, but probably from childhood when she learned to dissociate herself from the terrible abuse she endured. I'm assuming that she was judged fit to stand trial, which does now seem to be called into question with so many advocates stressing a serious mental condition.

I just wonder about this wicked crime and the link with her inability to have further children of her own. She already has four children and twelve grandchildren, but evidently was unable to find fulfilment with them, even though surely they were available to her to visit had she felt such a need.

Maybe the final say should be with the relatives of the murdered woman. My gut instinct is that the sentence of the court should be carried out, but I'm not qualified in the area of mental health to diagnose exactly what the defendant is suffering from.
Title: Re: Should Lisa Montgomery be executed?
Post by: guest29835 on January 12, 2021, 08:42:PM
Well I would agree that the process of executing a Death Row inmate is far too lengthy. The prime candidate to my mind is Darlie Routier: if she doesn't die by lethal injection the death penalty punishment falls into disrepute.

Isn't the Lisa Montgomery case still due process though? Her final appeal would be for clemency from Donald Trump (she is due to be executed tonight 11pm GMT), which obviously is not going to succeed.

I don't know how this organization has got involved in the case but it has, so I would say there is still a process which is to be acknowledged by those charged with carrying the punishment out. http://www.oas.org/en/iachr/decisions/pdf/2020/91-20MC1048-20-US.pdf

I disagree - not with you, but with them.  To me, this is not due process, it's just delay masquerading as due process because the people involved don't have the moral backbone to apply the penalty imposed by the court.  Disappointingly, I see they have granted her another stay.

Who knows when her problems started, but probably from childhood when she learned to dissociate herself from the terrible abuse she endured. I'm assuming that she was judged fit to stand trial, which does now seem to be called into question with so many advocates stressing a serious mental condition.

I just wonder about this wicked crime and the link with her inability to have further children of her own. She already has four children and twelve grandchildren, but evidently was unable to find fulfilment with them, even though surely they were available to her to visit had she felt such a need.

Maybe the final say should be with the relatives of the murdered woman. My gut instinct is that the sentence of the court should be carried out, but I'm not qualified in the area of mental health to diagnose exactly what the defendant is suffering from.

Her problems predated the offence, but I think one must weigh this against the brutality of the crime and bear in mind that there appears to be no dispute that she formed criminal intent.

I don't agree that families should have any say or influence, and I disagree with the use of victim impact statements in court, for instance.  I think that sort of thing is a dangerous development.  The whole point of the system is objectivity and detachment.  The prosecution is on behalf of the community-at-large, not the victim or the victim's family.
Title: Re: Should Lisa Montgomery be executed?
Post by: Steve_uk on January 14, 2021, 10:02:PM
It's over. https://eu.indystar.com/story/news/crime/2021/01/12/lisa-montgomery-execution-once-again-set-take-place/6635726002/
Title: Re: Should Lisa Montgomery be executed?
Post by: guest29835 on January 16, 2021, 04:16:AM
It's over. https://eu.indystar.com/story/news/crime/2021/01/12/lisa-montgomery-execution-once-again-set-take-place/6635726002/

Good.  It was wrong of them to defer this for so long.  They say justice delayed is justice denied, and it is very true, but justice has now been done.  Nevertheless, delaying execution in cases such as this makes a mockery of the system and must prolong the suffering of the victim's families, denying them finality.  Lisa Montgomery had exhaustive due process many years ago.  The punishment of death was right and deserved and needed to be carried out.  I'm glad they've finally now done the right thing.  Let us remember the victim, Bobbie Jo Stinnett. 

Let us also remember the impact of prolonged incarceration on the offender, a fallible human being like the rest of us.  Even if she was behind the legal moves to delay things, I still think the delay was an abuse and cruel on her.  I don't personally believe in any sort of supernatural god or divine power, but if there is a god, I hope He has forgiven Lisa Montgomery and she is now at peace.  She had problems in her life, which affected her judgement.  She rightly paid the price and now, please God, let her rest in peace.

All of this is tragic, but there is a happy ending to it: the child, who I won't name here as she guards her privacy, is still alive and thriving as a teenager.  I wish her a long and contented life.
Title: Re: Should Lisa Montgomery be executed?
Post by: Steve_uk on January 16, 2021, 03:22:PM
I'm a little disappointed that no member has offered the counter view: she had doubtless suffered abuse as a child (the latest is she had brain damage), the death penalty is inhumane and brutalizes society as a whole, it's not a deterrent etc. I suppose the uniqueness of the crime, its barbarity and premeditation made  it inevitable in a society which still retains the option of judicial killing that she would have been executed at some point.  If I recall rightly it was the late maggie whose hero was Clive Stafford-Smith, and I know had she been alive she would have contributed to this thread.
Title: Re: Should Lisa Montgomery be executed?
Post by: ngb1066 on January 16, 2021, 03:28:PM
I'm a little disappointed that no member has offered the counter view: she had doubtless suffered abuse as a child (the latest is she had brain damage), the death penalty is inhumane and brutalizes society as a whole, it's not a deterrent etc. I suppose the uniqueness of the crime, its barbarity and premeditation made  it inevitable in a society which still retains the option of judicial killing that she would have been executed at some point.  If I recall rightly it was the late maggie whose hero was Clive Stafford-Smith, and I know had she been alive she would have contributed to this thread.

Maggie might well have contributed and if so she would have expressed views as you suggest.  That is also my view.  I oppose capital punishment for a number of reasons.  However I have sympathy for the family of victims and fully understand the desire for vengeance.  I would no doubt have a similar view if a member of my family had been brutally murdered.  I knew one mass murderer well (a minimum of 6 victims, including two young children) and I would happily have seen him executed, but I accept that it would be wrong for society to do that.



Title: Re: Should Lisa Montgomery be executed?
Post by: Steve_uk on January 16, 2021, 04:05:PM
Maggie might well have contributed and if so she would have expressed views as you suggest.  That is also my view.  I oppose capital punishment for a number of reasons.  However I have sympathy for the family of victims and fully understand the desire for vengeance.  I would no doubt have a similar view if a member of my family had been brutally murdered.  I knew one mass murderer well (a minimum of 6 victims, including two young children) and I would happily have seen him executed, but I accept that it would be wrong for society to do that.
It's one of the criticisms of the death penalty that revenge is an emotion which often doesn't heal but festers. It's a paradox that most Western democracies have abolished it yet the electorate largely remained in favour. When I watch the quality of some of Roy Jenkins' videos on YouTube (the EEC debate with Tony Benn, the Northern Ireland crisis) I feel that but for his sheer force of personality and intellectual argument we might not have abolished hanging, legalized abortion and passed the Sexual Offences Act 1967, if I might lump those three together for a moment.
Title: Re: Should Lisa Montgomery be executed?
Post by: guest29835 on January 16, 2021, 05:45:PM
I'm a little disappointed that no member has offered the counter view: she had doubtless suffered abuse as a child (the latest is she had brain damage), the death penalty is inhumane and brutalizes society as a whole, it's not a deterrent etc. I suppose the uniqueness of the crime, its barbarity and premeditation made  it inevitable in a society which still retains the option of judicial killing that she would have been executed at some point.  If I recall rightly it was the late maggie whose hero was Clive Stafford-Smith, and I know had she been alive she would have contributed to this thread.

How I would address these points:

First, the general points.  I think the Americans (or at least, those states that do, as well as the federal system) are correct to retain the option to execute the worst murderers.  We should also have it restored here, though I would want a requirement of unanimity in jury decisions and other protections to be restored along with it.  It doesn't brutalise society.  What brutalises society is the criminal act. 

Keeping somebody in prison for decades on end is grotesque when that person grows into old age and is no longer a threat.  It has left the British system with a dilemma and it finishes with Colin Pitchfork, double child killer, talented artist and baker of exceedingly good cakes, sat on a bench in Bristol city centre munching on a rhubarb and custard bake from Greggs while trying to remember that he needs to pop into Boots for a prescription.  I would prefer that he had just been hanged in the first place. It would be a more dignified affair all round and provide finality to the families of the two victims. It would also have been kinder to him, actually.  I never forget that he is a human being and that prolonged incarceration involves existential suffering that we should not be seeking to inflict.

Turning to Lisa Montgomery, one red flag for me when looking at this case is the hyperbole that her defenders engage in, using buzzwords, politicised arguments and exaggeration to make a case for why she, as a woman, should not be executed.  They claim she was abused and was brain damaged, but there is no independent scientific or legal corroboration of this, to my knowledge.  I stand to be corrected if somebody can provide links to actual evidence, not just third party claims.

Let us say she was abused and raped.  There's no conclusive evidence that this ever occurred, but let's assume it is true.  Even if it did happen, this is not an excuse for murder and it is not a reason to mitigate punishment.

She may have been brain damaged; again the only evidence for this seems to be the claim of her mother who inflicted the brain damage on her.  Let's assume she is telling the truth.  It doesn't follow that she could not form the necessary criminal intent.  I accept that executing somebody who was without criminal intent in committing the act is wrong and would almost be tantamount to legalised murder, but to my knowledge, no argument was even advanced by her legal team that criminal intent was absent.  Instead, they tried to suggest that her problems were sufficient mitigation to justify commutation.  I've explained why I disagree with that: the premeditation involved in commission of the offence, and the brutality of the crime.  She must have known what she was doing.

We're told she was mentally-ill at the time of the offence.  (She was subsequently diagnosed with multiple mental disorders, but that's only after entering incarceration).  I've noticed that 'mentally-ill' is a term that's now used with undue latitude for any sort of mental or emotional issues that a person can have, and I also can't help but comment on the irony of the tacit crude sexism in this mitigation point.  Are we saying that women can't be mentally-ill without murdering somebody?  Let's assume she was mentally-ill, we have no specifics to guide us, and again the same observation as immediately above applies.  A mentally-ill person can form criminal intent.  I sympathise with people who have these issues, but it's not an excuse for murdering somebody.

There may be an argument that women should not be executed on the traditional ground that adult females are more akin to minors in their mental, intellectual and emotional disposition and lack full moral agency.  I'm not saying I agree with this argument, but feminism seems to advance the argument tacitly.  The irony is that it is feminist jurists and lawyers who believe that women are constructive minors.  That is essentially what they are saying when they appeal to chivalry and ask us not to support the execution of a convicted murderer who is female.

Where I do agree with her defenders is that her prolonged incarceration was a violation of human rights.  I am, in principle, opposed to unnecessary prolonged incarceration.  I regard it as cruel, regardless of what somebody has done.  In the case of Jeremy, keeping him in prison into his 60s when he began his sentence in his 20s is, to my mind, manifestly cruel given that he is not assessed as a significant threat to the community.  In the case of Lisa Montgomery, I think if somebody is sentenced to death following a fair trial and having had an opportunity to appeal and also ask for executive clemency, and assuming there is no remaining doubt about the essentials of the case, then the sentence must be carried out.  The reason the U.S. system drags it out for years is due to the pressure of well-meaning but misguided people who are abusing the vitality of the American due process protections.  That ought to stop.
Title: Re: Should Lisa Montgomery be executed?
Post by: guest29835 on January 16, 2021, 05:57:PM
It's one of the criticisms of the death penalty that revenge is an emotion which often doesn't heal but festers. It's a paradox that most Western democracies have abolished it yet the electorate largely remained in favour. When I watch the quality of some of Roy Jenkins' videos on YouTube (the EEC debate with Tony Benn, the Northern Ireland crisis) I feel that but for his sheer force of personality and intellectual argument we might not have abolished hanging, legalized abortion and passed the Sexual Offences Act 1967, if I might lump those three together for a moment.

It's not revenge.  It's a civic duty, a man's job, that nobody wants but that must be carried out at the instruction of a court following a fair trial.  It reflects the justice that an offender who has, with premeditation, deprived a fellow human being of their life without just cause should forfeit his own life.  Nobody seriously thinks that this is 'revenge'.  Nobody in their right mind takes glee in it.  It is just the right thing to do if we believe in holding responsible adults accountable for their own actions and if we accept that the worst criminal actions should have comparable consequences.  It provides finality and spares further suffering, and it is dignified and civilised.  The lack of a death penalty in this country if anything makes us uncivilised.

The result is what we have now: arguments about when Jeremy should be released, since we didn't have the moral backbone to hang him.  Should we wait until he's 65?  70?  80?  85?  90?  His whole life tariff is extinguished by operation of law at the age of 99.  Should we release him then, or could he attack somebody with a zimmer frame?  It's just absurd.

And you have the grotesque spectacle of Colin Pitchfork, model prisoner and double child killer, on a day out in Bristol city centre.  We can't blame the present prison system for this.  The dilemma they've been put in is caused by our cowardice in not wanting to inflict the right and proper punishment.  He should have been hung - clearly and obviously.

We're governed by teenagers now. 
Title: Re: Should Lisa Montgomery be executed?
Post by: David1819 on January 16, 2021, 06:33:PM
She entered the victims home under the false pretence of being a prospective buyer of the dog that was up for sale. She then strangled the victim before stealing her unborn child by cutting it out the womb.

Cant say I will lose any sleep from her execution.

Title: Re: Should Lisa Montgomery be executed?
Post by: ngb1066 on January 16, 2021, 07:15:PM
It's one of the criticisms of the death penalty that revenge is an emotion which often doesn't heal but festers. It's a paradox that most Western democracies have abolished it yet the electorate largely remained in favour. When I watch the quality of some of Roy Jenkins' videos on YouTube (the EEC debate with Tony Benn, the Northern Ireland crisis) I feel that but for his sheer force of personality and intellectual argument we might not have abolished hanging, legalized abortion and passed the Sexual Offences Act 1967, if I might lump those three together for a moment.

For once I agree with you.