Jeremy Bamber Forum

JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Adam on May 11, 2018, 06:02:PM

Title: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Adam on May 11, 2018, 06:02:PM
It has been suggested this month by Mike & Nigel, that Sheila had an accomplice.

Mike has suggested Ralph Bamber flew over from New Zealand & quickly flew back, as well as suggested a man called Jeff Blake. While Nigel suggested Sheila was grooming Helen Grimster in March 1985.

Are there any other suggestions on who Sheila's accomplice could have been ?
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on May 11, 2018, 06:08:PM
There's already a thread pertaining to this.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Nigel on May 11, 2018, 06:09:PM
My personal view is he is male and lived/lives within a 2 minute walk of White House Farm.

He was known to the BAMBER's, possibly from an early age.

I guess being a rural area that would narrow things down.

Were the BAMBER's neighbours questioned?
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Adam on May 11, 2018, 06:11:PM
There's already a thread pertaining to this.

This is specific to who.

And why would someone assist Sheila ?
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: David1819 on May 11, 2018, 06:14:PM
My personal view is he is male and lived/lives within a 2 minute walk of White House Farm.

I guess being a rural area that would narrow things down.

Were the BAMBER's neighbours questioned?

In several pages of her deranged writing not long before the massacre. She writes of a man named “Vincent” if I remember correctly.

I personally don’t think there was an accomplice. Nor does she need one.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Adam on May 11, 2018, 06:17:PM
My personal view is he is male and lived/lives within a 2 minute walk of White House Farm.

He was known to the BAMBER's, possibly from an early age.

I guess being a rural area that would narrow things down.

Were the BAMBER's neighbours questioned?

This rounds it down. WHF was very remote.

I believe the Foakes's & some farm workers lived nearby.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on May 11, 2018, 06:21:PM
In several pages of her deranged writing not long before the massacre. She writes of a man named “Vincent” if I remember correctly.

I personally don’t think there was an accomplice. Nor does she need one.





I think Vincent was in her head as the one she " took her orders from ".
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Nigel on May 11, 2018, 06:21:PM
This rounds it down. WHF was very remote.

I believe the Foakes's & some farm workers lived nearby.

Hi Adam,

Do you know if the 'Foakes's' & local (2 minute walk from WHF) farm workers were questioned?
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on May 11, 2018, 06:23:PM
Listen to the words of the song " Vincent " sung by Don McLean too !
Powerful words and appropriate to Sheila at the time.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on May 11, 2018, 06:29:PM
Hi Adam,

Do you know if the 'Foakes's' & local (2 minute walk from WHF) farm workers were questioned?





Doris Foakes was interviewed. Her statement is somewhere I think.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Adam on May 11, 2018, 06:29:PM
Hi Adam,

Do you know if the 'Foakes's' & local (2 minute walk from WHF) farm workers were questioned?

Didn't Leonard Foakes say he saw Sheila on the massacre day. And also say he heard Bamber drive off at 9.30pm ?

Don't know about farm workers.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Adam on May 11, 2018, 06:36:PM
Jeremy did tell the police a few weeks later,  Nevill may have said 'She' & not 'Sheila' on the phone.

The only woman I can think of who lived so near, is Dorothy Foakes.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Nigel on May 11, 2018, 06:41:PM
Didn't Leonard Foakes say he saw Sheila on the massacre day. And also say he heard Bamber drive off at 9.30pm ?

Don't know about farm workers.

Is LEONARD FOAKES the person DAVID BOUTFLOUR met at the end of driveway?
7mins 48 sec
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcTvqLk0MWU&t=517s

Also do the FOAKES's have a son?
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Adam on May 11, 2018, 06:44:PM
Is LEONARD FOAKES the person DAVID BOUTFLOUR met at the end of driveway?
7mins 48 sec
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcTvqLk0MWU&t=517s

Also do the FOAKES's have a son?

Could be. Don't know if they had a son.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on May 11, 2018, 07:22:PM
Wrong video-----------that was damning ! But I hope it remains where it is.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on May 12, 2018, 04:39:PM
Trouble is, when Sheila had said to AE/BW that " All people are bad and should be killed "--------it was meant as ALL who'd been present inside the farmhouse that night and not just one person. We don't know when this was said or how long from the tragedies.
 One thing we do know and that it never came up during the trial that this had been said.
This along with what Sheila had told Helen Grimster regarding suicide were two big hints that should never have been taken lightly and which set a precedent of what was to follow. It was obviously how Sheila felt.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on May 12, 2018, 04:53:PM
I reckon it was only days before the tragedy when Sheila was staying at WHF that she said those words to BW who in turn told AE. For reasons unknown people kept quiet about it and the suggestion had been that was why BW had " vanished " when due to be questioned after the tragedy as she'd possibly been told not to include what Sheila had said . Knowing how devious everyone was. I wouldn't trust them with my cat.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Steve_uk on May 12, 2018, 05:35:PM
David Boutflour doesn't interview well, which is not to say he is telling lies.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Nigel on May 12, 2018, 05:59:PM
'The accomplice' is a dog lover.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Nigel on May 12, 2018, 06:10:PM
'The accomplice' had been inside White House Farm, prior to the tragedy.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on May 12, 2018, 06:15:PM
David Boutflour doesn't interview well, which is not to say he is telling lies.





It's easy to sit back and waffle like he did as he thinks of where Jeremy is until he dies.
I wouldn't trust DB one iota with his supercilious self-satisfied persona.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Nigel on May 12, 2018, 06:20:PM
'The accomplice' had been inside White House Farm, prior to the tragedy.

Almost certainly he 'the accomplice' has been inside White House Farm since the tragedy.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on May 12, 2018, 06:26:PM
Now you're keeping us guessing Nigel. Although a murderer does return to the place of the crime it is said.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Nigel on May 12, 2018, 06:28:PM
'The accomplice' had a gun licence in 1985 and has good knowledge of the workings of a gun.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Adam on May 13, 2018, 10:45:AM
It's good that there is now support on Sheila having an accomplice.

Previous stances have been terrible.  There is no possibility a fully fit Nevill & June would do nothing apart from ring Jeremy. Then a shot Nevill just collapsed in the kitchen & there was no kitchen fight.

Sheila must have been very convincing in persuading her accomplice that her mother, father, brother & sons derseved to die. Espescially as the accomplice would not have been paid.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on May 13, 2018, 10:59:AM
Who were the " friends/acquaintances " who Sheila had befriended and whose objections were made clear when her parents showed disapproval ?
Who did Sheila let into the farmhouse that night ?

It was too easy to have blamed JB for the murders when clearly there were other issues going on.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on May 13, 2018, 11:02:AM
EP hadn't even scratched the surface. Shame on them !
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Adam on May 13, 2018, 11:04:AM
Who were the " friends/acquaintances " who Sheila had befriended and whose objections were made clear when her parents showed disapproval ?
Who did Sheila let into the farmhouse that night ?

It was too easy to have blamed JB for the murders when clearly there were other issues going on.

That is the big question. 'Who did Sheila let into the farm house that night' ?
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: mike tesko on May 13, 2018, 04:16:PM
It's good that there is now support on Sheila having an accomplice.

Previous stances have been terrible.  There is no possibility a fully fit Nevill & June would do nothing apart from ring Jeremy. Then a shot Nevill just collapsed in the kitchen & there was no kitchen fight.

Sheila must have been very convincing in persuading her accomplice that her mother, father, brother & sons derseved to die. Espescially as the accomplice would not have been paid.

There may have been a financial incentive, had Sheila survived, as a benefactor of the parents estate(s)..
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Nigel on May 13, 2018, 06:13:PM
SHEILA did not plan on luring JEREMY to WHF to his potential death at the hands of 'the accomplice'.

This was part of 'the accomplice's' modus operandi.

Hence why I am certain it was a type of 'honeytrap' scenario by 'the accomplice' on behalf of the RELATIVES.

A 'honeytrap' for SHEILA.

Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Adam on May 13, 2018, 06:33:PM
There may have been a financial incentive, had Sheila survived, as a benefactor of the parents estate(s)..

I thought the plan was for Sheila & her accomplice to kill 5 members of her family & assist Sheila commit suicide ?
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Adam on May 13, 2018, 06:35:PM
SHEILA did not plan on luring JEREMY to WHF to his potential death at the hands of 'the accomplice'.

This was part of 'the accomplice's' modus operandi.

Hence why I am certain it was a type of 'honeytrap' scenario by 'the accomplice' on behalf of the RELATIVES.

A 'honeytrap' for SHEILA.

Was the plan for Sheila & her accomplice to just kill everyone at WHF, then Sheila kill herself ?

What changed that made a fully fit Nevill call Jeremy ?
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Nigel on May 13, 2018, 06:39:PM
SHEILA did not plan on luring JEREMY to WHF to his potential death at the hands of 'the accomplice'.

This was part of 'the accomplice's' modus operandi.

Hence why I am certain it was a type of 'honeytrap' scenario by 'the accomplice' on behalf of the RELATIVES.

A 'honeytrap' for SHEILA.

The RELATIVES taking advantage of a deeply disturbed young women.
Using SHEILA for their own evil means.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Nigel on May 13, 2018, 07:32:PM
The RELATIVES taking advantage of a deeply disturbed young women.
Using SHEILA for their own evil means.

An extremely disturbed vulnerable young lady, used like a pawn in a chess game.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Steve_uk on May 13, 2018, 07:36:PM
An extremely disturbed vulnerable young lady, used like a pawn in a chess game.
Yes and the Life Master is banged up where he belongs.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on May 13, 2018, 07:40:PM
Didn't Roland Pargeter visit a psych who'd told him that 3 people had been responsible for the deaths ?

He could just have had a " Rolie  " too many ?
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Nigel on May 13, 2018, 07:45:PM
Yes and the Life Master is banged up where he belongs.

Not for long.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on May 13, 2018, 07:53:PM
What became of the loose bullet found in an envelope by Richard Wood-----in the garage where the Citroen was kept ? It's these little forgotten snippets that never came to light like fingerprinting of the said bullet.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Adam on May 14, 2018, 05:33:PM
Everything is falling into place. Thanks to Mike & Nigel -

Sheila had an accomplice. That man was Ralph Nevill.

Sheila & Ralph engaged in the fields a few hours before the massacre. Sheila was delivering sandwiches, Jeremy was on his tractor.

June was shot first.  A fully fit Nevill was then frog marched to the kitchen, to phone Jeremy & then Chelmsford police 16/26 minutes later.

The kitchen fight then took place. Nevill did not return upstairs.

Ralph slipped away unseen after realising the police were arriving before Jeremy.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Adam on May 14, 2018, 05:37:PM
David's theory that a sedated Sheila suddenly became an enraged GI Jane, bare footed in her nightie, at 3am has always been impossible to believe.

David claiming there was no kitchen fight & Nevill rang Jeremy after Sheila started shooting the twins, just made things worse.

Sheila had to have an accomplice.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: David1819 on May 14, 2018, 06:42:PM
David's theory that a sedated Sheila suddenly became an enraged GI Jane, bare footed in her nightie, at 3am has always been impossible to believe.

David claiming there was no kitchen fight & Nevill rang Jeremy after Sheila started shooting the twins, just made things worse.

Sheila had to have an accomplice.

Sheila was not “sedated”. The pathologist and the doctor both testified her dosage was low. You have been caught out in this lie enough times Adam.


Now I guess you will run and hide behind the moderators once again.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Adam on May 14, 2018, 06:59:PM
87.

Thereafter Sheila Caffell received monthly injections of Haloperidol, a drug used to treat agitated states which had anti-psychotic and tranquillising properties. It also has sedative side effects at the levels prescribed.


148.

Sheila Caffell, probably in a sedated state from her medication, was also shot in the bedroom.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Steve_uk on May 14, 2018, 08:13:PM
Sheila was not “sedated”. The pathologist and the doctor both testified her dosage was low. You have been caught out in this lie enough times Adam.


Now I guess you will run and hide behind the moderators once again.
There's no evidence she had much energy from the party the previous Saturday until her death the following Wednesday.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: David1819 on May 14, 2018, 09:16:PM
87.

Thereafter Sheila Caffell received monthly injections of Haloperidol, a drug used to treat agitated states which had anti-psychotic and tranquillising properties. It also has sedative side effects at the levels prescribed.


148.

Sheila Caffell, probably in a sedated state from her medication, was also shot in the bedroom.

That does not refute the detailed testimony of both doctors. The levels in her system at the time was low.

For the record you are also using the strawman.


"A straw man is a logical fallacy which occurs when a debater intentionally misrepresents their opponent's argument as a weaker version, and rebuts said version — rather than their opponent's genuine argument. Intentional strawmanning is usually done with a certain goal in mind, including:

1.Avoiding real debate against an opponent's real argument, because the misrepresenter risks losing in fair debate

2.Making the opponent's position appear ridiculous as a way of poisoning the well"
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Adam on May 14, 2018, 09:32:PM
David focusing on the poster again. Quoting something which is nothing to do with the COA. This time not 'gish gash', but something to do with 'straw man' I haven't read.

He can't dispute the COA's two sources.

He is lucky he is allowed to goad and focus on the guilter, rather than what the guilter posts.

Not sure why he believes he has to be the 'Blue Bamber fire fighter'.  Surfacing whenever a guilter posts & focusing on the guilter. Bamber wants nothing to do with him.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Adam on May 14, 2018, 11:20:PM
Everything is falling into place. Thanks to Mike & Nigel -

Sheila had an accomplice. That man was Ralph Nevill.

Sheila & Ralph engaged in the fields a few hours before the massacre. Sheila was delivering sandwiches, Jeremy was on his tractor.

June was shot first.  A fully fit Nevill was then frog marched to the kitchen, to phone Jeremy & then Chelmsford police 16/26 minutes later.

The kitchen fight then took place. Nevill did not return upstairs.

Ralph slipped away unseen after realising the police were arriving before Jeremy.

As Mike said, the police shot Sheila.

This means Sheila & her accomplice just planned to kill 5 members of  her family. Sheila planned to surrender to the police.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on May 16, 2018, 01:16:PM
Whoever committed these terrible crimes------it WASN'T Jeremy !!
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: mike tesko on June 06, 2018, 04:28:PM
That is the big question. 'Who did Sheila let into the farm house that night' ?

The scruffy looking, hunched man!
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Steve_uk on June 09, 2018, 12:21:PM
Could this thread be merged with "Sheila and one other were responsible" or are they both claiming two distinct things?
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on June 09, 2018, 12:26:PM
I suppose so really Steve.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: mike tesko on June 23, 2018, 09:07:AM
It has been suggested this month by Mike & Nigel, that Sheila had an accomplice.

Mike has suggested Ralph Bamber Ralph Neville, arrived at whf to work on the farm around the time that Sheila came to stay at the farmhouse for the last occasion! Ralph Neville left the UK on the morning of the shootings in a hurry..flew over from New Zealand South Friday.. & quickly flew back, as well as suggested a man called Jeff Blake. Jeff Blake's name came into the frame, by way of information supplied by a police informant...While Nigel suggested Sheila was grooming Helen Grimster in March 1985. Helen Grimshaw was a confidant of Sheila Caffell, she made a witness statement to Essex police confirming this and that...

Are there any other suggestions on who Sheila's accomplice could have been ?
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: mike tesko on June 23, 2018, 10:49:AM
As Mike said, the police shot Sheila.

This means Sheila & her accomplice just planned to kill 5 members of  her family. Sheila planned to surrender to the police.

Yes, Sheila and her accomplice planned and executed the other four victims, with Jeremy being the intended fifth victim - however, since Jeremy did not rush to the scene alone, but instead informed the police and his girlfriend that the was something wrong at the farm, Jeremy was spared the ordeal of being shot and killed! Hence why Sheila and her accomplice only killed the other four! Now, as to who shot and killed Sheila, well the evidence that armed police were responsible for initially shooting Sheila downstairs in the kitchen during an initial confrontation with Sheila, where she was shot in the neck and mistakenly presumed dead, a death explained away at the time as a suicide (by 7.45am), is well documented by reference to the contents of timed police radio message log contents, relayed from inside the farmhouse from the firearm officers, via the forward control point and the occupants of CA07 who are recorded as being the people who dispatched this information over the police radio to the control room back at Chelmsford police station!!

Jeremy Bamber, nor I have made any of this up, it is a fact clearly documented in the police files!!!

Furthermore, by 8.10am, police records confirm that there were only three bodies found upstairs...

Sheila Caffell's body could not have been present anywhere upstairs until 'after' 8.10am, and no amount of lying on the part of Essex police can suffice to alter that fact - Sheila was already mistakenly presumed dead downstairs in the kitchen, hers was the female body mentioned in individually timed police radio message log contents, at 7.35am, 7.37am, 7.38am, 7.42am, and 7.45am! Just to recap for argument's sake and for the purpose of being precise, Sheila's was the female body referred to on each of these occasions, she was supposed to be dead, she had supposedly committed suicide, but most of all, and rather significantly, her death was described in these uniquely timed police radio transmissions secondly, after the body of one dead male was mentioned!!!

It is considered on to be highly relevant, that in all these timed police radio messages and transmissions that reference was initially made to the discovery, or the find of the body of one dead male, followed by reference to the discovery, or the find of the body of one dead female! One dead male, One dead female, a murder and a suicide!

All of this (7.35am to 7.45am) occurring prior to 8.10am, by which time a further three dead bodies found upstairs!

The sequence with which armed police discovered the bodies of victims once they got into the farmhouse shortly after 7.30am, is therefore of the utmost importance and significance!

Two dead bodies in the kitchen upon entry 'the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female' (7.37am), not the body of one dead male mistakenly identified as the body of one dead female, since in the very next breath in a message passed at 7.38am ' One dead male, One dead female'. Then as if to confirm that what cops who entered the under seige farmhouse had found or been met by, at 7.45am a civilian operator with the Christian name 'Linda' contacted DS Davidson at his home address, and requested that he come on duty to the office immediately because police were dealing with an incident at whf involving two bodies, a murder, and a suicide!

Now, it must be true, that by 7.45am (some 25 minutes prior to the raid team inside the farmhouse going upstairs and finding the other three bodies), the firearm officers had already found  or reported the discovery of two dead bodies, one dead male, one dead female, a murder, and a suicide! Not only were staff back in the control room aware that two bodies had been found by 7.45am, but rather more specifically that the two bodies in question had been reference to the bodies of Neville Bamber, and Sheila Caffell', where Neville Bambers death was being talked about in terms of his death being treated as a murder, and Sheila Caffell's death mistakenly being spoken about in terms of it having been suicide! All of this, known about by 7.45am, some 25 minutes to the next all important police radio message which was passed at precisely 8.10am - 'after a thorough search, a further three bodies found upstairs, five dead in toral'!!!

Nothing could be clearer, the evidence is irrefutable, two bodies downstairs from 7.35am, onwards, the body of one dead male (Neville Bamber) and the body of one dead female (Sheila Caffell), a murder (Neville Bamber) and a suicide (Sheila Caffell), followed by at 8.10am the discovery of a further three bodies upstairs (the bodies of June Bamber, Nicholas Caffell and Daniel Caffell)...

At this juncture (8.10am) the firearms Operation Commander was PS Adams!

Then, the police operation went pearshaped, 'something extraordinary occurred' which the police at the scene had not bargained for - Sheila's body vanished from its original location downstairs in the kitchen!  The disappearance of Sheila's body from the kitchen as first alerted at 8.15am, caused a sudden change in leadership of the firearms operation, whereby PI Montgomery became the firearms Operation Commander (PS Adams demoted at 8.15am)...

From then on, the distribution regarding the body count downstairs (2) and upstairs (3), altered into only one body being downstairs ( Neville Bambers body) in the kitchen, and the other four bodies upstairs' (June Bamber, Sheila Caffell, Nicholas Caffell, and Daniel Caffell) in the bedrooms)...

The police are responsible for dishonestly presenting the facts regarding where each of the bodies of the five victims (collectively) were reported found to be present inside the farmhouse originally! Instead, they have presented the facts dishonestly by claiming that the bodies of the five victims were originally found where they ended up being placed after 8.15am, placed there by Senior police officers whilst performing an exercise known as 'informatives'...

Nothing could be clearer, the most distinguishing feature which I would suggest exposed the truth in this matter concerns the role of PS Adams and PI Montgomery who led the firearms operation at two different periods between 5am and say 9.00am, where PS Adams was the firearms Commander until 8.15am, however he was demoted and PI Montgomery became the Commander once the police operation inside the farmhouse went pearshaped because of the disappearance of Sheila's body from the kitchen, downstairs and the subsequent arrival of her body upstairs in time for the police surgeon, Dr Craig to pronounce Sheila as being dead at a time when her body was upstairs on the far side of the bed sporting what appeared to be only one bullet wound to her neck, with a rifle laying alongside her body!!!

Sheila's death, therefore, described as being present downstairs in the kitchen, hers being the second body found in sequence, her death also being referred to as a suicide by 7.45am, when PS Adams was the Commander of the firearms operation, and secondly, Sheila again being pronounced as being dead, this time by Dr Craig at 8.44am, her body being on the far side of the bed, with a rifle laid alongside her body, she only having what appeared to be a single bullet wound to her neck and PI Montgomery being the Commander of the firearms operation...

The key to resolving what really took place inside whf between 7.30am and let's say provisionally until 8.44am, will be discovered once the firearms logs held at DHQ are made available, which will contain full reports of how and for what reason the firearms officers were deployed to the scene and the duties performed throughout the entire armed police operation, as well as the reason why there became a change in leadership of the firearms operation at 8.15am?

More importantly, the identity of the firearms officer, or firearm officers, who called Sheila's death when her body had been present downstairs in the kitchen at, or between 7.35am and 7.45am, as referenced in the individually timed police radio contents and communications!

Ask yourselves, whether or not you believe that the police would make something up surrounding the death of a female by way of suicide downstairs in the kitchen, if there hadn't been a female body in the kitchen on those occasions (7.35am, 7.37am, 7.38am, 7.42am and 7.45am)?

There is no room for the ridiculous argument which has been put forward, concerning the possibility that police mistook the body of Neville Bamber for the body of a dead female, for the following reasons:-

(1) - this mistaken identity occurred when police officers were peering in through the kitchen window at a time when the armed police had not yet even entered the farmhouse, let alone got into the kitchen!

(2) - no sooner does the firearms officers enter the kitchen (7.35am), they report finding the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female (7.37am), if the body seen from outside the kitchen window had been the body of Neville Bamber, and not the body of a woman, once the firearms team entered the kitchen there would not have been mention of two bodies being present inside the kitchen, for example, the body of one dead male, followed by, and the body of one dead female - reference to there being the body of one dead female that was present in the kitchen at that point would have been unnecessary!

(3) - a minute later (7.38am) One dead male, One dead female - this second police radio communication confirming that there had been two bodies present downstairs in the kitchen by that stage. The first being reference to the body of Neville Bamber, and the second being a reference to the body of Sheila Caffell..

(4) - four minutes later at 7.42am, a request made from the scene, for the police surgeon, the divisional Detective chief Inspector and the Coroner's Officer to attend the scene involving the discovery of two dead bodies - this can only have been reference to the bodies of Neville Bamber, and his daughter Sheila Caffell because the firearms team had not even finished searching the downstairs part of the farmhouse at this stage...

(5) - 'Linda' a civilian operator working in the control room at Chelmsford police station contacted DS Davidson (7.45am) at his home address, requesting that he come on duty to the office because police are dealing with an incident at whf, involving two bodies, a murder, and a suicide - well, there it is in clear unambiguous language, two bodies found, not one body, one of the bodies referred to as a murder, the other body mentioned being a supposed suicide (Neville Bamber, and Sheila Caffell') their deaths called long before the firearms officers inside the farmhouse had even got up the mainstairs around 8.10am...

It can clearly be shown that reference to their having been two bodies downstairs in the kitchen as per these time police radio message log contents and police communication logs, that there was no mix up involving only one dead body, mistakenly identified as a female body or vice versa, since how could anybody realistically describe Neville Bambers death as a suicide?

Well, there it is...

Sheila Caffell was alive when the firearms officers went into the farmhouse (7.30 /7.35am), but she ended up dead on the floor of her parents bedroom upstairs, in possession of a rifle which at the time the armed police entered the farmhouse had been resting against a first floor box room window (7.15am, or there abouts)!

How had 'that' rifle at the box room window, managed to find its way into the possession of Sheila Caffell's body on the parents bedroom floor, by the time police are saying they originally found her body in possession of 'it' within 40 minutes or so if the first part of the operation after entry had been gained into the property?

The police radio message log contents confirm that all five bodies had been found by 8.10am...

So, how did the rifle get from the box room window onto the body of Sheila Caffell on the parents bedroom floor by 8.10am?

If the cops aren't responsible for bringing that gun to Sheila's body, then I am afraid that it can lead to only one conclusion - Sheila must have still been alive after Jeapes' and Brown saw the rifle at the box room window, and she shot herself upstairs whilst the police were already inside the farmhouse!

What's it to be?

Cops shot and killed Sheila then staged her death scene as a suicide, despite evidence already existing and it being on record as her death having been described as a suicide when her body was downstairs in the kitchen (from as early as 7.45am), or did Sheila shoot herself dead after taking possession of the rifle from the box room window and after shooting herself she fell naturally into the position that she ended up being photographed in?

But...

If Sheila had taken possession of the rifle at the box room window when police entered the farmhouse, and she then went into her parents bedroom and shot herself dead, falling naturally into position in possession of the rifle, and sporting two bullet wounds to her neck, how was it possible for Sheila to roll onto her right hand side into the recovery position so that blood could pool in the fold of her right arm, and stain that part of her nightdress with her own blood, before rolling herself back into the suppine position still with the rifle clutched on top of her body and the muzzle end of the guns barrel in close proximity to the two wounds on her throat, and with the fingers of her right hand resting near to the trigger mechanism?

Surely, the rifle would have fell off her body once her body was placed into the recovery position upon it's right hand side, would'nt it?

And, surely her right hand would not have remained resting on top of the trigger mechanism, nor would the muzzle end of the rifles barrel have remained as if glued on her body during the rolling sequence involved when somebody put Sheila's body into the recovery position, and rolled 'it' back out of it!!!

Sheila Caffell could not possibly have shot and killed herself, and her body be rolled over into the recovery position and back into the supine position, and her right hand remain resting on the trigger mechanism nor could the muzzle end of the guns barrel have remained in the position shown in the police photographs! The only logical conclusion that anybody can come to was that police were responsible for shooting Sheila Caffell dead, and that they staged her death scene, the police placed Sheila Caffell's body in the recovery position upon it's right hand side, and then the police placed Sheila's body back into the suppine position, after which they then planted the rifle which had been used to kill her, onto her body to make it appear as though she had committed suicide!

Case 'SOLVED'...
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Adam on June 23, 2018, 10:51:AM
Here is a summary of outside influence suggestions Mike -

Crispy fired the second shot into Sheila.

Nevill may have said 'She' rather than 'Sheila' on the phone.

A hit man team carried out the massacre.

One of the relatives carried out the massacre.

Sheila and Bamber committed the massacre together.

The massacre was committed by a hunched figure seen in the area.

Sheila shot herself once downstairs and was then shot again upstairs by the police.

Someone had a grudge against Nevill, who was a part time magistrate.

Bamber couldn't have committed the massacre alone. So had an accomplice. Who this could have been has never been suggested.

A man called Jeff Blake committed the massacre.

Helen Grimster.

Ralph Nevill.

One of the farm workers living in one of the properties on WHF.

Sheila was shot twice by the police.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: mike tesko on June 23, 2018, 11:17:AM
Here is a summary of outside influence suggestions Mike -

Crispy fired the second shot into Sheila. I beg your pardon, what? crispy shot Sheila? I don't think so!!!

Nevill may have said 'She' rather than 'Sheila' on the phone. Correct, and he could also have said 'he'..

A hit man team carried out the massacre. as suggested by Giovanni Dr Stefano in his article...

One of the relatives carried out the massacre. One of the relatives rifle, silencer, and ammunition was used in this shooting tragedy, and relatives and Essex police have lied about its presence at the scene at the material time!

Sheila and Bamber committed the massacre together. Jeremy had given shooting lessons to Sheila, which June Bamber spoke to her sister Pamela Boutflour about...

The massacre was committed by a hunched figure seen in the area. the hunched man could have been the accomplice...

Sheila shot herself once downstairs Shelagh did not shoot herself, he was shot in the kitchen during a struggle over possession of a rifle.. and was then shot again upstairs by the police. police have lied about where Sheila's body was originally pronounced as being dead, and she was eventually killed off by a bullet (PV/19) fired from a rifle which had been resting against the inside of a first floor box room window minutes before police claimed they found Sheila's body upstairs on the parents bedroom floor clutching that rifle - suggests in the strongest terms imaginable that police are responsible for Killing Sheila Caffell and staging her death scene as a suicide!

Someone had a grudge against Nevill, true, it's well documented, and also Peter Eaton thumped Neville Bamber over an argument about some land of his...who was a part time magistrate.

Bamber couldn't have committed the massacre alone. Bamber could not possibly have had anything to do with his sister's death, or staging her death scene asca suicide with the rifle from the first floor box room window.. So had an accomplice. Bamber isn't the killer, so he couldn't have had an accomplice..Who this could have been has never been suggested.

A man called Jeff Blake committed the massacre. Jeff Blake's name was put forward by a police informant as a possible suspect!

Helen Grimster. a confidant of Sheila Caffell who gave an insight into Sheila Caffell's odd behaviour and personality...

Ralph Nevill. he fled from South Africa wanted for questioning about the shooting of white farmers in that country, he arrived at whf to do casual work around the same time as Sheila, but fled the uK on the morning of the shootings...

One of the farm workers living in one of the properties on WHF. possession of two guns which were handed to Essex police after an appeal regarding the Bamber family massacre, one of these guns was capable of firing .22 ammunition, and the people who handed the weapons over refused to say who had given them the two guns!

Sheila was shot twice by the police. in the circumstances I have mentioned, yes the police were involved in both occasions that Sheila Caffell got shot...
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Adam on June 23, 2018, 08:15:PM
Thanks Mike.

It was Jeremy who suggested Crispy fired the second shot. As well as that Nevill may have said 'she' on the phone rather than Sheila. 

This was after the police suggested to him Sheila could not have fired her second shot.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: mike tesko on June 23, 2018, 08:28:PM
Thanks Mike.

It was Jeremy who suggested Crispy fired the second shot. As well as that Nevill may have said 'she' on the phone rather than Sheila. 

This was after the police suggested to him Sheila could not have fired her second shot.

I know this, but you incorrectly suggested that I had said that Crispy the dog had shot Sheila, which is absurd!

This is a forum that I set up to listen to everybodies opinion, with a view to exposing the truth in any given scenario...

I know with 100% certainty that Jeremy Bamber could not have shot his sister, and staged her death scene as a suicide on the parents bedroom floor, for the following reasons...
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: mike tesko on June 23, 2018, 08:38:PM
(1) - how did Jeremy place the anshuzt rifle at the first floor box room window, andcsfyetwatds stage his sister's death scene on the parents bedroom floor after the firearms team entered the farmhouse at 7.30am, or even after 8.10am?

Everything points to the firearms officers having shot Sheila dead, on the floor of the parents bedroom, after 8.44am, when the police surgeon, Dr Craig had pronounced Sheila as being dead, her body being on the far side of the bed, with a solitary bullet wound to her neck, and Sheila's body having the rifle which had killed her, alongside her body...

There are those amongst us, who are trying to manipulate the truth, by suggesting that at 8.44am Sheila had already got two bullet entry wounds to her throat, for whatever reason! But, this cannot be true!!!
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: mike tesko on June 23, 2018, 08:41:PM
(1) - how did Jeremy place the anshuzt rifle at the first floor box room window, andcsfyetwatds stage his sister's death scene on the parents bedroom floor after the firearms team entered the farmhouse at 7.30am, or even after 8.10am?

Everything points to the firearms officers having shot Sheila dead, on the floor of the parents bedroom, after 8.44am, when the police surgeon, Dr Craig had pronounced Sheila as being dead, her body being on the far side of the bed, with a solitary bullet wound to her neck, and Sheila's body having the rifle which had killed her, alongside her body...

There are those amongst us, who are trying to manipulate the truth, by suggesting that at 8.44am Sheila had already got two bullet entry wounds to her throat, for whatever reason! But, this cannot be true!!!

It cannot be true, because after 9.05am, when DS Stan Jones, and DC Mick Clark, visited the main bedroom the bodies of Sheila Caffell, and June Bamber were laid on the top of the bed side by side eachother with the gun on the bed, in-between both bodies, and that Sheila had by that stage got a Bible resting on top of her chest!!!
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: mike tesko on June 23, 2018, 08:44:PM
How can anyone dismiss what DS Stan Jones has gone on record as saying, that Sheila's body was laid on top of the bed when he visited the main bedroom  after 9.05am, with a single bullet wound to her neck, by that stage?
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: mike tesko on June 23, 2018, 08:47:PM
How can anyone dismiss what DS Stan Jones has gone on record as saying, that Sheila's body was laid on top of the bed when he visited the main bedroom  after 9.05am, with a single bullet wound to her neck, by that stage?

DS Jones account, matching the account given by the police surgeon, Dr Craig, that Sheila had only been shot once by 8.44am, and just after 9.05am according to DS Stan Jones...
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: mike tesko on June 23, 2018, 08:52:PM
Please, how could Jeremy have shot his sister on the second occasion, after 8.44am, or 9.05am, and staged his sisters body as a suicide at that time?
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: mike tesko on June 23, 2018, 08:54:PM
Please, how could Jeremy have shot his sister on the second occasion, after 8.44am, or 9.05am, and staged his sisters body as a suicide at that time?

'Impossible'...
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: mike tesko on June 23, 2018, 09:00:PM
Let's hit the nail on the head, so to speak - Sheila's body downstairs in the kitchen (7.35am, onwards) according to the contents of the timed police radio log messages, dead, apparently, by way of suicide! Sheila's body laid on top of the bed, alongside the body of June Bamber after 9.05am, as witnessed by DS Stan Jones, and DC Mick Clark, with a rifle resting on the bed in-between both bodies, and a Bible resting on Sheila's chest!

If this be true, Jeremy could not possibly have had anything to do with shooting his sister dead by way of the second shot, and nothing to do her body having been stage managed as a suicide!
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: David1819 on June 23, 2018, 09:47:PM
Let's hit the nail on the head, so to speak - Sheila's body downstairs in the kitchen (7.35am, onwards) according to the contents of the timed police radio log messages, dead, apparently, by way of suicide! Sheila's body laid on top of the bed, alongside the body of June Bamber after 9.05am, as witnessed by DS Stan Jones, and DC Mick Clark, with a rifle resting on the bed in-between both bodies, and a Bible resting on Sheila's chest!

If this be true, Jeremy could not possibly have had anything to do with shooting his sister dead by way of the second shot, and nothing to do her body having been stage managed as a suicide!

(https://imghost.io/images/2018/06/21/coll2b.jpg)
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on June 23, 2018, 09:54:PM
I wonder why it was thought to be the body of a woman ? What position would nevill have been in to indicate that he'd looked like a woman ? He wasn't even found lying on the floor was he ?
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on June 23, 2018, 09:56:PM
Nevill's size when in the chair would have said it was a man's build ?
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Steve_uk on June 23, 2018, 10:32:PM
I wonder why it was thought to be the body of a woman ? What position would nevill have been in to indicate that he'd looked like a woman ? He wasn't even found lying on the floor was he ?
I think because they could only see long straggly hair and I assume not a full view from just peering in gingerly at the window.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: mike tesko on June 24, 2018, 12:35:AM
(https://imghost.io/images/2018/06/21/coll2b.jpg)
this is out of sequence, since reference is being made to a police officer looking through the kitchen window prior to entry into the farmhouse, once the police got into the farmhouse, they reported the find of two bodies not one! For example, as per the timed police radio log (3.37am), the raid team found the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female, a fact repeated at 7.38am, and mention of the two bodies in another police message timed at7.42am, as two dead bodies, referenced at 7.45am, as a murder, and a suicide!

Anybody throwing in reference to the sighting through the kitchen window of Neville Bambers body which was supposedly mistaken for the body of a dead female, a mistake not rectified once the police got into the kitchen, does not stand up to scrutiny because, once the firearms officers entered the kitchen, they still mentioned a presence of two dead bodies, the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female, a murder, and a suicide! If the sighting of Neville Bambers body through the kitchen window had been true which had led to some sort of confusion  as to the identity of the body in the kitchen, why did members of the firearms team not rectify that mistake at an earlier stage?

Additionally, how was it possible to describe Neville Bambers death as a suicide, by 7.45am?
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: mike tesko on June 24, 2018, 12:39:AM
You should not be able to prosecute anybody based purely on speculation!!
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on June 24, 2018, 09:18:AM
I think because they could only see long straggly hair and I assume not a full view from just peering in gingerly at the window.






But there was never a description of the colour of hair. Both women were dark-haired, Nevill had been fair. One of the first descriptions of a person is the colour of their hair. His hair wasn't that long when you see the " silhouetted " outline of him.

Women's hair I'd have described as straggly.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on June 24, 2018, 09:22:AM
I think because they could only see long straggly hair and I assume not a full view from just peering in gingerly at the window.







Also I've said this before that when looking through a window you tend to look across/along and not downwards. If you do look downwards for the reason you can't enter you'd see clearly that it was a man or a woman-----if blocking the entrance.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Jane on June 24, 2018, 10:27:AM





But there was never a description of the colour of hair. Both women were dark-haired, Nevill had been fair. One of the first descriptions of a person is the colour of their hair. His hair wasn't that long when you see the " silhouetted " outline of him.

Women's hair I'd have described as straggly.


I think "straggly" is an eminently accurate description of hair on the head of someone who has been subjected to such a severe beating that their brain has been exposed and blood has flowed. The length of hair which would have fallen forwards, according to the style Nevill favoured, and far removed from the style adopted by members of police, could have been 10-15 inches in length. At first glance it could easily have been mistaken for that of a woman.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on June 24, 2018, 10:49:AM

I think "straggly" is an eminently accurate description of hair on the head of someone who has been subjected to such a severe beating that their brain has been exposed and blood has flowed. The length of hair which would have fallen forwards, according to the style Nevill favoured, and far removed from the style adopted by members of police, could have been 10-15 inches in length. At first glance it could easily have been mistaken for that of a woman.






Firstly,for hair to appear straggly it has to be a certain length or it can't be described in that way. I don't think that Nevill had the hair length that would have " fallen forward ". Older pics gives him the look of having longer length hair but we're talking a few years later,when he was 60 in fact.
IF Nevill's hair had appeared straggly then that would have indicated wet hair-----showered ??
But where was the description ? A person with fair/dark hair ?
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on June 24, 2018, 10:51:AM
There was NO other description-------bleeding/injured/on the floor/on a chair ?
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on June 24, 2018, 10:53:AM
If the officer saw enough of a person then he'd have been able to describe her/him. It's what they're trained for.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on June 24, 2018, 10:57:AM
If he'd seen the dog that they'd heard barking then he'd have described seeing a small fluffy dog as opposed to an Alsation. It's all about accuracy--------and EP weren't, by any stretch accurate.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on June 24, 2018, 10:58:AM
Under normal circumstances you'd probably agree with me,but---------------
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Caroline on June 24, 2018, 11:30:AM





Firstly,for hair to appear straggly it has to be a certain length or it can't be described in that way. I don't think that Nevill had the hair length that would have " fallen forward ". Older pics gives him the look of having longer length hair but we're talking a few years later,when he was 60 in fact.
IF Nevill's hair had appeared straggly then that would have indicated wet hair-----showered ??
But where was the description ? A person with fair/dark hair ?

Then you would be wrong! Nevil had haor that the combed over the thinning patch and when his head was forward, the hair hung down. I have seen a high res picture of Nevil's body and the hair was definitely long.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Caroline on June 24, 2018, 11:31:AM
If the officer saw enough of a person then he'd have been able to describe her/him. It's what they're trained for.

He didn't see 'enough' of him. His head was shoved in a coal scuttle and not even the police come with X-Ray eyes.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Caroline on June 24, 2018, 11:33:AM
There was NO other description-------bleeding/injured/on the floor/on a chair ?

He wasn't standing at the window taking notes.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on June 24, 2018, 11:34:AM
Then you would be wrong! Nevil had haor that the combed over the thinning patch and when his head was forward, the hair hung down. I have seen a high res picture of Nevil's body and the hair was definitely long.






Half a dozen comb-over strands doesn't equate to a full head of long hair.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Caroline on June 24, 2018, 11:35:AM
Under normal circumstances you'd probably agree with me,but---------------

No.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Caroline on June 24, 2018, 11:37:AM
If he'd seen the dog that they'd heard barking then he'd have described seeing a small fluffy dog as opposed to an Alsation. It's all about accuracy--------and EP weren't, by any stretch accurate.

No one needed to see the dog to know it wasn't an Alsatian - it was heard barking.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on June 24, 2018, 11:37:AM
He didn't see 'enough' of him. His head was shoved in a coal scuttle and not even the police come with X-Ray eyes.






So if the head was hidden how was the length of the hair seen ? Plus he had the build of a male ?
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on June 24, 2018, 11:38:AM
He wasn't standing at the window taking notes.







No--the notes were supposed to be in his head,weren't they ? Unless his memory was impaired.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on June 24, 2018, 11:40:AM
No.







Pedants don't usually.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on June 24, 2018, 11:42:AM
No one needed to see the dog to know it wasn't an Alsatian - it was heard barking.






Exactly,that's my argument concerning visual descriptions.So why couldn't they differentiate between a male/female person seen through a window ?
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Jane on June 24, 2018, 11:48:AM





Firstly,for hair to appear straggly it has to be a certain length or it can't be described in that way. I don't think that Nevill had the hair length that would have " fallen forward ". Older pics gives him the look of having longer length hair but we're talking a few years later,when he was 60 in fact.
IF Nevill's hair had appeared straggly then that would have indicated wet hair-----showered ??
But where was the description ? A person with fair/dark hair ?

Oh! FCS, Lookout!!! The guy was a POLICEMAN, not a West End hair stylist. You can 'thin' what you like, but in my, too many years to say, time as a hairdresser, a hairdressing tutor, and an examiner, I DO know what I'm talking about. It's also a given, that men of his class, never, EVER change -providing the don't loose their hair- the hairstyle they adopt in their school days. I also know the difference between hair which is blood soaked and hair which is wet. Without seeing it, I KNOW Nevill's hair to have been blood soaked. I CAN'T because I wasn't there, categorically state that it was wet from being just washed.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Jane on June 24, 2018, 11:52:AM





Half a dozen comb-over strands doesn't equate to a full head of l  hair.

Nevill had   a rather luxurious head of hair.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on June 24, 2018, 11:57:AM
Oh! FCS, Lookout!!! The guy was a POLICEMAN, not a West End hair stylist. You can 'thin' what you like, but in my, too many years to say, time as a hairdresser, a hairdressing tutor, and an examiner, I DO know what I'm talking about. It's also a given, that men of his class, never, EVER change -providing the don't loose their hair- the hairstyle they adopt in their school days. I also know the difference between hair which is blood soaked and hair which is wet. Without seeing it, I KNOW Nevill's hair to have been blood soaked. I CAN'T because I wasn't there, categorically state that it was wet from being just washed.
[/quote


So I'm right in saying that blood-soaked hair would have appeared flat to the head and not long ? Coupled with the head itself hidden inside the scuttle------why wasn't it described this way on looking inside ??
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Jane on June 24, 2018, 12:01:PM
There was NO other description-------bleeding/injured/on the floor/on a chair ?

From his position, he'd hardly have been able to see what his injuries were but as people don't normally sit like that, it was reasonable to assume that there were some.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Jane on June 24, 2018, 12:07:PM
Oh! FCS, Lookout!!! The guy was a POLICEMAN, not a West End hair stylist. You can 'thin' what you like, but in my, too many years to say, time as a hairdresser, a hairdressing tutor, and an examiner, I DO know what I'm talking about. It's also a given, that men of his class, never, EVER change -providing the don't loose their hair- the hairstyle they adopt in their school days. I also know the difference between hair which is blood soaked and hair which is wet. Without seeing it, I KNOW Nevill's hair to have been blood soaked. I CAN'T because I wasn't there, categorically state that it was wet from being just washed.
[/quote


So I'm right in saying that blood-soaked hair would have appeared flat to the head and not long ? Coupled with the head itself hidden inside the scuttle------why wasn't it described this way on looking inside ??



No. The beating would have splayed out the hair which was probably seen as hanging over the coal scuttle. All this would have given the illusion of there being more hair than there might have been. As for the "Why's"? I guess he wasn't too concerned about a pedant picking holes in his statement 30 odd years later.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on June 24, 2018, 12:08:PM
From his position, he'd hardly have been able to see what his injuries were but as people don't normally sit like that, it was reasonable to assume that there were some.







Only the original files pertaining to the murder/suicide will tell us the truth about this.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Caroline on June 24, 2018, 12:23:PM

So I'm right in saying that blood-soaked hair would have appeared flat to the head and not long ? Coupled with the head itself hidden inside the scuttle------why wasn't it described this way on looking inside ??

No! You are NOT right. You haven't seen the picture of him so why are you trying to change the facts of it? The hair was LONG!
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on June 24, 2018, 12:27:PM
No! You are NOT right. You haven't seen the picture of him so why are you trying to change the facts of it? The hair was LONG!







I'm visualising the silhouetted pic that we have-------don't wish to see the pic in its entirety btw !!
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Caroline on June 24, 2018, 12:30:PM






Only the original files pertaining to the murder/suicide will tell us the truth about this.

His statement is in the archives on the forum.

It seems that any evidence available here and now is denied in favour of some 'other evidence' that remains hidden. No matter what is posted to prove certain facts, there will always be the mantra that 'what really happened, is hidden'. It's like playing "I've got a secret" - a game popular with primary school kids and 9 out of 10 times, they don't really have a secret anyway.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on June 24, 2018, 12:33:PM
His statement is in the archives on the forum.

It seems that any evidence available here and now is denied in favour of some 'other evidence' that remains hidden. No matter what is posted to prove certain facts, there will always be the mantra that 'what really happened, is hidden'. It's like playing "I've got a secret" - a game popular with primary school kids and 9 out of 10 times, they don't really have a secret anyway.






It's certainly no " secret " and I'm not treating it as such. It's called injustice !
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Caroline on June 24, 2018, 12:34:PM






I'm visualising the silhouetted pic that we have-------don't wish to see the pic in its entirety btw !!

Good! Because I can't post it. His hair isn't long and straggly though and it's not wet. It is long and kind of bushy. Someone having a quick glance might mistake it for the curly(ish) hair of a middle-aged woman.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Jane on June 24, 2018, 12:37:PM
Good! Because I can't post it. His hair isn't long and straggly though and it's not wet. It is long and kind of bushy. Someone having a quick glance might mistake it for the curly(ish) hair of a middle-aged woman.

It was bushy, Caroline. It had a very strong curl which would have taken up the length somewhat but created volume.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Caroline on June 24, 2018, 12:37:PM





It's certainly no " secret " and I'm not treating it as such. It's called injustice !

What is? The FACT that he mistook Nevil for a woman and then corrected himself? The injustice is repeating that he lied when you have no evidence to prove he did. If he said he thought Nevil was female initially, and the logs show this and it's in his (and other raid team members statements), who are you to call him a liar?
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on June 24, 2018, 12:46:PM
Good! Because I can't post it. His hair isn't long and straggly though and it's not wet. It is long and kind of bushy. Someone having a quick glance might mistake it for the curly(ish) hair of a middle-aged woman.






What I'd meant to say is that I DON'T want to see such a pic------just so that you and others don't get the impression that I'm the " namesake " of what that " thing " on red has called me !! Disgraceful !! Anyway I still fail to see how anyone could mistake male/female with their head hidden in a scuttle if that's how he'd been found. Most newspapers of the day had said the hall but who am I to argue ?



Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on June 24, 2018, 12:57:PM
--------------off outside to watch the match.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: David1819 on June 24, 2018, 01:09:PM


Only the original files pertaining to the murder/suicide will tell us the truth about this.

We already know the truth about this. PC Collins mistook Nevill’s body for that of a dead woman and reported it down the radio. While one of his colleagues made the correct observation and reported a dead male. Thus the radio receivers have the impression that one dead man and one dead woman are spotted downstairs.


Rather simple really.  :-\

Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: David1819 on June 24, 2018, 01:14:PM
Show this to a stranger and ask them if its a dead old man or a dead old woman. You will get mixed results.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Steve_uk on June 24, 2018, 01:34:PM
I thought it was a pedal bin on fire..
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Jane on June 24, 2018, 01:43:PM
I thought it was a pedal bin on fire..

I thought it was one of those vacuum cleaners called Henry.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Steve_uk on June 24, 2018, 02:20:PM
Actually I owe David an apology for creating a new thread on Darlene Gentry when he had already covered it. But maybe he can explain what exactly we are supposed to be looking for in this vacuum cleaner pedal bin picture.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Caroline on June 24, 2018, 02:27:PM
Actually I owe David an apology for creating a new thread on Darlene Gentry when he had already covered it. But maybe he can explain what exactly we are supposed to be looking for in this vacuum cleaner pedal bin picture.

Seriously Steve? You can't see Nevil's head?   ???
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: David1819 on June 24, 2018, 02:37:PM
Well there we go. Jane J has just mistook Nevill for a Henry Hoover and Steve has just mistook Nevill for a bin on fire.



Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Steve_uk on June 24, 2018, 03:04:PM
Seriously Steve? You can't see Nevil's head?   ???
Is that his arm on the left of the picture?
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Jane on June 24, 2018, 03:14:PM
Actually I owe David an apology for creating a new thread on Darlene Gentry when he had already covered it. But maybe he can explain what exactly we are supposed to be looking for in this vacuum cleaner pedal bin picture.

Well, to summarize. Lookout, according to her, could have told exactly what gender of person was laying dead in that kitchen, and feels the need to strongly criticize the policeman who couldn't. Yet, we, who know the picture well couldn't tell that it was neither pedal bin on fire nor vacuum cleaner.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on June 24, 2018, 03:24:PM
Well, to summarize. Lookout, according to her, could have told exactly what gender of person was laying dead in that kitchen, and feels the need to strongly criticize the policeman who couldn't. Yet, we, who know the picture well couldn't tell that it was neither pedal bin on fire nor vacuum cleaner.






I'm not even going to study any picture knowing what it's about ! I've passed it.Don't even feel comfortable with it even if you do.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Jane on June 24, 2018, 03:34:PM





I'm not even going to study any picture knowing what it's about ! I've passed it.Don't even feel comfortable with it even if you do.

The point isn't about you and your allegedly delicate sensitivities, Lookout. It's about what a policeman thought he saw when he glanced through a window.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on June 24, 2018, 04:07:PM
The point isn't about you and your allegedly delicate sensitivities, Lookout. It's about what a policeman thought he saw when he glanced through a window.



 


Which had been entered/written several times,particularly when entering ? Thought's no good !!
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Jane on June 24, 2018, 04:13:PM


 


Which had been entered/written several times,particularly when entering ? Thought's no good !!

From that distance, he couldn't swear to be accurate. He wouldn't have realized his mistake until he was inside.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: lookout on June 24, 2018, 04:47:PM
From that distance, he couldn't swear to be accurate. He wouldn't have realized his mistake until he was inside.







Distance ? Through a downstairs window ? Wasn't the light on too ?
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Jane on June 24, 2018, 05:01:PM






Distance ? Through a downstairs window ? Wasn't the light on too ?

Variables will include angles, body's distance from window, shadows cast by light. Not forgetting how long it had been since the windows were cleaned. Jeez! How long are you going to keep this up? You weren't there. You didn't see what he saw. You have his statement. You can't change it. Get over it.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Caroline on June 24, 2018, 05:32:PM
Is that his arm on the left of the picture?

Yes.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Harry on June 26, 2018, 09:14:AM
We already know the truth about this. PC Collins mistook Nevill’s body for that of a dead woman and reported it down the radio. While one of his colleagues made the correct observation and reported a dead male. Thus the radio receivers have the impression that one dead man and one dead woman are spotted downstairs.


Rather simple really.  :-\

"We already know the truth about this. PC Collins mistook Nevill’s body for that of a dead woman and reported it down the radio."

Yeah and we know that the soles of Sheila's feet were "spotlessly clean" because a bunch of coppers said so in their statements.

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/10/12/article-2456759-18B3E01000000578-139_634x268.jpg)

What you are basically saying is that what the police say in there later statements is proof that any discrepancies with earlier reports can be attributed to those reports being mistaken.

You go further than one against one comparisons. You steadfastly maintain that the statements are honest even when there is repeated corroboration of the reports. That is the typical thinking of guilty supporters. Because they are committed to supporting the police.

Your motives are different. Since you got to be aquainted with his lawyers you have brought your own opinions in line with their outdated position.

Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Caroline on June 26, 2018, 09:34:AM
"We already know the truth about this. PC Collins mistook Nevill’s body for that of a dead woman and reported it down the radio."

Yeah and we know that the soles of Sheila's feet were "spotlessly clean" because a bunch of coppers said so in their statements.

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/10/12/article-2456759-18B3E01000000578-139_634x268.jpg)

What you are basically saying is that what the police say in there later statements is proof that any discrepancies with earlier reports can be attributed to those reports being mistaken.

You go further than one against one comparisons. You steadfastly maintain that the statements are honest even when there is repeated corroboration of the reports. That is the typical thinking of guilty supporters. Because they are committed to supporting the police.

Your motives are different. Since you got to be aquainted with his lawyers you have brought your own opinions in line with their outdated position.

The logs support his statement but don't let that stop you from flogging a dead horse.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: David1819 on June 26, 2018, 04:39:PM
"We already know the truth about this. PC Collins mistook Nevill’s body for that of a dead woman and reported it down the radio."

Yeah and we know that the soles of Sheila's feet were "spotlessly clean" because a bunch of coppers said so in their statements.

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/10/12/article-2456759-18B3E01000000578-139_634x268.jpg)

What you are basically saying is that what the police say in there later statements is proof that any discrepancies with earlier reports can be attributed to those reports being mistaken.

You go further than one against one comparisons. You steadfastly maintain that the statements are honest even when there is repeated corroboration of the reports. That is the typical thinking of guilty supporters. Because they are committed to supporting the police.

Your motives are different. Since you got to be aquainted with his lawyers you have brought your own opinions in line with their outdated position.


Two shell casings found beside Sheila, Absence of a blood trail and the bloodstiain patterns on Sheila's dress all coroborate PC Collins claim that he was mistaken.  A Police discrepancy on another subject (Sheila's feet) is nothing but a false equivalence.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: Zoso on June 30, 2018, 10:27:AM
I have moved the Peterson stuff to Other High Profile Cases because we were taking over the topic. David may be interested in my last post though  ;D - It's a whole new goading opportunity for him!
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: mike tesko on October 03, 2018, 12:47:PM
"We already know the truth about this. PC Collins mistook Nevill’s body for that of a dead woman and reported it down the radio." this is not true, since PC Collins and PC Delgado did not look through the kitchen window at all, it was the laundry room window on the other side of the door that they look through! The red team which included Commons and Delgado commenced its approach from the corner of red/white of the promises, the six man Riddim went beyond the kitchen window to the door, after which PC Collins and PC Delgado went to the window beyond that door and peered in to the laundry! the body of the woman was seen in the laundry, through the laundry window! As such they could not have mistaken the body of Nevill Bamber for the body of a woman, because Neville Bambers body was not in the laundry, his body was in the kitchen and could not be seen from the vantage point of Collins and Delgado standing outside the laundry window Looking In...

Yeah and we know that the soles of Sheila's feet were "spotlessly clean" because a bunch of coppers said so in their statements.

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/10/12/article-2456759-18B3E01000000578-139_634x268.jpg)

What you are basically saying is that what the police say in there later statements is proof that any discrepancies with earlier reports can be attributed to those reports being mistaken.

You go further than one against one comparisons. You steadfastly maintain that the statements are honest even when there is repeated corroboration of the reports. That is the typical thinking of guilty supporters. Because they are committed to supporting the police.

Your motives are different. Since you got to be aquainted with his lawyers you have brought your own opinions in line with their outdated position.
Title: Re: Who was Sheila's accomplice ?
Post by: mike tesko on October 04, 2018, 06:22:PM
(https://imghost.io/images/2018/06/21/coll2b.jpg)

Collins and Delgado did not look through the kitchen window they looked through the laundry window which they inadvertently called the kitchen. In point of fact the six Man raid team commenced its approach to the door from the corner of red/white of the premises. The 6 of them on their way to the door that they were going to force open all went past the kitchen window without peering into it! When they got to the door 4 of them stayed at the door will PC Collins and PC Delgado went to the window beyond the door which was the laundry room window! it was the Laundry room window which Collins and Delgado looked into and reported seeing the body of a woman behind the door! There is no evidence that PC Collins or Pc Delgado or both of them had  looked into the kitchen window before the officers had arrived at the door! The the red teams start Point was from the corner of red/white of the premises, not the corner of white/green! This is confirmed by wpc Julia Jeapes', who had taken up Collins position at the corner of red/white in her role as a containment officer!