Jeremy Bamber Forum

JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: mike tesko on January 30, 2011, 06:41:PM

Title: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: mike tesko on January 30, 2011, 06:41:PM
Sheila's right arm, and right hand, too flexible at time photographed - for Sheila to have been already dead by at least seven hours, prior to these photographs being taken

No rigor Mortis - angle of arm altered, shape of right hand changed, and twisted into a different pose, position of bible disturbed...

One thing is certain, it was not Jeremy Bamber who disturbed Sheila's body and he did not stage manage it, to make out a false case for Sheila to have committed suicide...


These images establish beyond any shadow of doubt, that Jeremy got the blame for doing the very things police at the scene were and are responsible for doing...


Please click on image to enlarge...
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: mike tesko on January 30, 2011, 06:59:PM
CCRC do not need to waste any more time, in referring this case, and these convictions, back to the court of appeal - the general public have now seen enough evidence for everyone to know that Jeremy did not receive a fair trial and that his convictions are unsafe...

Refer this case back to the court of appeal, now - otherwise a delay in doing so, will only serve to undermine the integrity of the criminal justice system, and destabilize the confidence which the public has in our police, and the courts, and our Home Secretary...

How much evidence does the CCRC, and the appellate court need to be convinced that Jeremy is the victim of arguably the worst miscarriage of justice there has ever been in Britain...

You have my vote, Jeremy - the worm has begun to turn...
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: mike tesko on January 30, 2011, 07:07:PM
Not only has gun, arm, hand and bible been moved, but body has been slightly displaced, as well...

Please click on image to enlarge...
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: mike tesko on January 30, 2011, 07:37:PM
Request for Bible Photographs by Solicitor, Paul Terzean, rejected by Essex police, who told him that no such photographs existed, and the bible had been destroyed...

We now know why Essex police, did not want Jeremy's solicitor at the time of his trial in October 1986, to see any pictures showing the bible next to, and on the body of Sheila - because it would have alerted him to the fact that Sheila's right arm, hand, and the gun, had been moved whilst PC Bird was taking pictures, contrary to what the police told the court, along the lines that nobody, moved, or touched, anything, until after PC Bird, had taken all of his photographs, in each room...

Anyone who sees these images side by side, or overlaid, one atop the other, cannot help but come to the conclusion that Sheila had not been dead from as long ago as 3am, over seven hours previously - without rigor mortis having set in...

Please click on image to enlarge...
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: mike tesko on January 30, 2011, 09:33:PM
Mystery men at scene between 9:00am and 9:22am

These men were responsible for why Sheila's body had to be stage managed - re-staging took place, during the aforementioned period, and directly afterwards, whilst SOC had been given control of the crime scene, from 10 O'clock, onwards...

A further group of mystery men, arrived at the scene to carry out duties inside the farmhouse, between 10:35am, and 11:35am...

The stage managing of Sheila's body in the bedroom, was an ongoing feature, which became recorded in crime scene photographs which PC Bird (SOC) started to take between 10 am, and about 1pm. This was the reason why over 358 pictures were excluded from the wrongly named MASTER COPY ALBUM, which only had 223 photographs of the 581 pictures that were taken during the investigation...

The missing 358 photographs were kept in a top secret album, which became known as THE SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM contained images, which served to confirm that police were guilty of stage managing the scene, and in particular, the body of Sheila Caffell in the bedroom, to make out a case for Sheila having taken her own life there - even though she had taken her own life there...

The circumstances of how Sheila took her own life in the bedroom, were altered with a view to showing that police found her already dead in the bedroom, not that she was still alive after they forced their way into the farmhouse, and that she had originally been found downstairs, presumed to be dead, regained consciousness, fled upstairs and after taking control of a loaded rifle that was leaning up against the bedroom window, how she had actually killed herself by use of it...
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: mike tesko on January 30, 2011, 09:56:PM
Conclusive proof that Sheila had not been dead very long at the time PC Bird (SOC) photographed her body in situ on the bedroom floor, next to her parents bed

Rigor Mortis had not yet set in, and Sheila's right arm, and her right hand, was too flexible and loose, for her to have already been dead for over seven hours - and blood which was photographed running and leaking and pouring from the two wounds on her throat, and out of the corner of her mouth, was too fresh looking for Sheila's heart to have stopped beating more than seven hours previously...

Please click on image to enlarge...
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: cazbub on January 31, 2011, 05:42:PM
The inconsistencies in this case are ridiculous. The Police were obviously out of their depth and disturbed vital evidence in their initial entry into the farmhouse.
I have only recently become aware of this case, as I wasn't born when it happened, but I am fascinated by the amount of evidence witheld from Jeremys trial. I ahve just read the book Blood Relations, which led me to this site after a bit of googling.
In the above photo of Shelia the blood is clearly still fresh/wet, therefore there is no way she could have been lying dead inside the farmhouse for 6/7 hours.
You're doing a fantastic job Mike, I sincerely hope Jeremy gets the retrial he deserves.
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Kaldin on February 01, 2011, 09:11:AM
Readers who are unfamiliar with this case should note that, unusually, no official time of death was given for any of the victims at WHF.

Yes, I find that a bit odd that they couldn't pinpoint it a bit better. Do they even know who died first? I would have thought they could tell that by studying the scene and the blood spatter.
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: cazbub on February 01, 2011, 03:50:PM
"Posted by: Carry2
Readers who are unfamiliar with this case should note that, unusually, no official time of death was given for any of the victims at WHF."

I understand this, however if Jeremy comitted the murders, there is no way Sheila's blood could still be wet, as he was outside with the Police for a number of hours. Is this not correct?
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Kaldin on February 01, 2011, 05:29:PM
"Posted by: Carry2
Readers who are unfamiliar with this case should note that, unusually, no official time of death was given for any of the victims at WHF."

I understand this, however if Jeremy comitted the murders, there is no way Sheila's blood could still be wet, as he was outside with the Police for a number of hours. Is this not correct?

That's the theory of the defence, yes. 

Jeremy called the police at around 3.30 am - that's clear enough. The police arrived at the farm at 3.48 and Jeremy arrived after them. That means the family were dead by 3.30 at the very latest, but most likely earlier than that. The police broke into the house at 7.38. If Sheila died before 3.30 she'd been lying there for well over 4 hours. I don't know much about how long it takes blood to stop running or to dry, but I presume an expert witness could tell. They only have the photos to go on now though.
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: bb2010 on February 01, 2011, 05:34:PM
I would like to have seen the photos of the blood on the other victims so I could compare before asserting that one seemed fresher than the others.
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Kaldin on February 01, 2011, 05:36:PM
I would like to have seen the photos of the blood on the other victims so I could compare before asserting that one seemed fresher than the others.

Yes. I haven't seen any photos of the other victims at all.
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: cazbub on February 01, 2011, 05:37:PM
Cant seem to find any reference to photos of any of the others anywhere, only Sheila. Which in itself is strange, surely they must exist?

Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: bb2010 on February 01, 2011, 05:39:PM
They do. Do you think they should be posted? I have seen one of June.
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: cazbub on February 01, 2011, 05:42:PM
Yes, most definitely! How else can armchair investigators like ourselves try to decipher the situation!
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Kaldin on February 01, 2011, 05:44:PM
Yes, most definitely! How else can armchair investigators like ourselves try to decipher the situation!

Exactly! I can't help feeling there's something really simple that everyone has missed. All info available would be good.
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: tom on February 01, 2011, 07:13:PM
Ask the police to release the 200 photo's they are withholding !!
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: andrea on February 01, 2011, 10:53:PM
also there is no dis colouration of sheilas skin, after seven hours they sould be
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: mike tesko on February 01, 2011, 11:01:PM
also there is no dis colouration of sheilas skin, after seven hours they sould be
-------------------------------------------------

Good point...
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Kaldin on February 01, 2011, 11:05:PM
Was it 7 hours? If she had been killed between 3 am and 3.30 say, it might be less than that. At what time was her body discovered?
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: mike tesko on February 01, 2011, 11:07:PM
Was it 7 hours? If she had been killed between 3 am and 3.30 say, it might be less than that. At what time was her body discovered?
-------------------------------

First photographs were taken at, and from, 10 O'clock, so photographs of Sheila could have been taken at 10:30am to 11am, or later...

Time might have been greater...
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: shonapugs on February 01, 2011, 11:11:PM
Mike, when you visited the farmhouse in 1990, did the family grant you permission? Did you meet them? I have a huge problem with the fact that they moved in so quickly after the shootings, although I know they wanted to continue the tenancy. I read somewhere that , years later, the lampshade in the kitchen which had been broken on the night of the murders, had yet to be replaced. A constant reminder, if one was needed, of the tragedy. No wonder their poor children (allegedly) suffered nightmares.
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Kaldin on February 01, 2011, 11:13:PM
Was it 7 hours? If she had been killed between 3 am and 3.30 say, it might be less than that. At what time was her body discovered?
-------------------------------

First photographs were taken at, and from, 10 O'clock, so photographs of Sheila could have been taken at 10:30am to 11am, or later...

Time might have been greater...

OK - ta. I think that photo might make a difference actually. The blood does appear to be quite fresh. Time will tell.
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Kaldin on February 01, 2011, 11:14:PM
Mike, when you visited the farmhouse in 1990, did the family grant you permission? Did you meet them? I have a huge problem with the fact that they moved in so quickly after the shootings, although I know they wanted to continue the tenancy. I read somewhere that , years later, the lampshade in the kitchen which had been broken on the night of the murders, had yet to be replaced. A constant reminder, if one was needed, of the tragedy. No wonder their poor children (allegedly) suffered nightmares.

I think it's totally bizarre. Who would want to live in a house where five violent deaths occurred?
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: shonapugs on February 01, 2011, 11:18:PM
Kaldin, I find it equally bizarre that Julie Mugford volunteered to identify all of the bodies, and apparently afterwards did not seem particularly upset, she just asked if she could smoke.
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: mike tesko on February 01, 2011, 11:19:PM
Mike, when you visited the farmhouse in 1990, did the family grant you permission? Did you meet them? I have a huge problem with the fact that they moved in so quickly after the shootings, although I know they wanted to continue the tenancy. I read somewhere that , years later, the lampshade in the kitchen which had been broken on the night of the murders, had yet to be replaced. A constant reminder, if one was needed, of the tragedy. No wonder their poor children (allegedly) suffered nightmares.

I think it's totally bizarre. Who would want to live in a house where five violent deaths occurred?
-----------------------------------

I just turned up, and went to knock on the door with a view to speaking to them, but there was no-one home, so I looked in through the window to see if i could see anyone there, and that's what I had gone there for, with a view to asking their permission to view the kitchen window from the vantage point of inside the kitchen...

I later attended a shareholders meeting with a friend of mine, hoping to be able to sit in on the meeting which was held at Osea road camp site, but I was not allowed to participate - but I was made a nice cup of tea by the relatives whilst I waited outside on the car park...
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Kaldin on February 01, 2011, 11:22:PM
Kaldin, I find it equally bizarre that Julie Mugford volunteered to identify all of the bodies, and apparently afterwards did not seem particularly upset, she just asked if she could smoke.

Julie Mugford's whole behaviour was altogether bizarre in my opinion. I didn't know she had offered to identify the bodies though.
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: shonapugs on February 01, 2011, 11:41:PM
Kaldin, I realise that someone had to identify the bodies, but as Mike has remarked in a previous post, the fact that it was Julie Mugford is disturbing. You certainly have a comprehensive grasp of the facts, but unfortunately I find that the more I learn, the less I seem to understand. The sequence of shots, and any forensic evidence from under Sheila and Ralph's fingernails would be massively important pieces of the jigsaw.
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Kaldin on February 01, 2011, 11:47:PM
Kaldin, I realise that someone had to identify the bodies, but as Mike has remarked in a previous post, the fact that it was Julie Mugford is disturbing. You certainly have a comprehensive grasp of the facts, but unfortunately I find that the more I learn, the less I seem to understand. The sequence of shots, and any forensic evidence from under Sheila and Ralph's fingernails would be massively important pieces of the jigsaw.

I know what you mean. There is so much information out there and so much speculation that it's very difficult to understand what the actual facts are. Also, I don't have access to all of it. The sequence of shots and evidence from under fingernails would indeed be very interesting. Mind you, if there had been anything under their nails, the defence would have brought that up at the trial because it would have been very important to them.

Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: shonapugs on February 01, 2011, 11:55:PM
I think that the Guardian video, currently on JB's website, shows an image of Ralph's body if you freeze it as it begins to show the kitchen scene.
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: andrea on February 01, 2011, 11:57:PM
julie mugford offered to view the bodies in the mortuary. to she if she could "commumnicate" with sheila...strange
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Pete0001 on February 01, 2011, 11:59:PM
Again this is another problem... the amount of information.

The most black and white events can be twisted and bent all out of shape if you look hard enough.

Without a shadow of doubt alot of errors where made... some just due to human error and mean nothing to the case as it stands... other mistakes may have lead to the imprisonment of an innocent man.

I couldn't say if I think he is innocent or not... but i do feel he was convicted on very shakey evidence and did not receive a fair trial.
The evidence that damns him is no longer available to test (moderator and blood/hair).. and the deffence have proved that alot of the points the prosecution made about Sheila not being able to shoot herself with the rifle (moderator on or off) is simply not true. They have questioned the photographs taken and submitted and the appaulling logs kept of what was a very high profile case.
Guilty or not I can't say.. but this kind of conviction can't be allowed to stand... the Police made far too many errors and the prosecution misled on far too many points for it to have been a fair trial.

Just my opinion
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Kaldin on February 02, 2011, 12:07:AM
Again this is another problem... the amount of information.

The most black and white events can be twisted and bent all out of shape if you look hard enough.

Without a shadow of doubt alot of errors where made... some just due to human error and mean nothing to the case as it stands... other mistakes may have lead to the imprisonment of an innocent man.

I couldn't say if I think he is innocent or not... but i do feel he was convicted on very shakey evidence and did not receive a fair trial.
The evidence that damns him is no longer available to test (moderator and blood/hair).. and the deffence have proved that alot of the points the prosecution made about Sheila not being able to shoot herself with the rifle (moderator on or off) is simply not true. They have questioned the photographs taken and submitted and the appaulling logs kept of what was a very high profile case.
Guilty or not I can't say.. but this kind of conviction can't be allowed to stand... the Police made far too many errors and the prosecution misled on far too many points for it to have been a fair trial.

Just my opinion

I pretty much agree with you. I'm not sure about his guilt or innocence either, which is why I'm quite persistent when Mike claims something - I want to know where the proof is.  ;D

Like you, I think the investigation was so shoddy, and the witholding of evidence was so appalling that it must be looked at again very thoroughly. No more messing about, no more hiding of evidence, no more dismissing of facts as irrelevant. It would be really useful if they could cross-examine some of the police officers again to clear up this business about two bodies allegedly being seen in the kitchen too.
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Kaldin on February 02, 2011, 12:14:AM
I think that the Guardian video, currently on JB's website, shows an image of Ralph's body if you freeze it as it begins to show the kitchen scene.

Had a look at that but I can't see a body there.
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: cazbub on February 02, 2011, 11:56:AM
Completely agree with Pete0001 and Kaldin, very shoddy investigation and too much evidence was witheld to allow a fair trial.

I also cannot decide if he's guilty or innocent, there simply isn't enough proof either way in my opinion, it's all speculation. What IF this happened, what IF that happened!

Also think that cross examining the police officers about this two bodies on entry to the building is needed. If Sheila was in the kitchen, then moved unnoticed upstairs it is very odd.
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Kaldin on February 02, 2011, 12:25:PM
Completely agree with Pete0001 and Kaldin, very shoddy investigation and too much evidence was witheld to allow a fair trial.

I also cannot decide if he's guilty or innocent, there simply isn't enough proof either way in my opinion, it's all speculation. What IF this happened, what IF that happened!

Also think that cross examining the police officers about this two bodies on entry to the building is needed. If Sheila was in the kitchen, then moved unnoticed upstairs it is very odd.

I can't decide either, and I agree there isn't enough proof either way. I'm trying to go on what's likely based on the evidence, but there always seems to be a sticking point with every theory.

They really need to sort out this business of there allegedly being two bodies in the kitchen. I find it very hard to believe that she shot herself in the kitchen and then went upstairs and shot herself again when the police were in the house.
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: cazbub on February 02, 2011, 12:37:PM
So do I, it seems ludicrous! The police would surely have heard her moving about, as someone with a gunshot wound wouldn't be able to sneak about quietly.
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Pete0001 on February 02, 2011, 12:48:PM
So do I, it seems ludicrous! The police would surely have heard her moving about, as someone with a gunshot wound wouldn't be able to sneak about quietly.

Exactly theres so much talk of people walking around after being shot, in some cases multiple times, without concern of how messy that would have most likely been not to mention painful.
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: cazbub on February 02, 2011, 01:00:PM
In my opinion, if I was shot, I'd put my hand to the injured part of my body, therefore smearing blood onto my hands and onto any surfaces I touched. If Neville was shot 4 times upstairs, then went downstairs you'd think there would be at least some sort of a blood trail tracing his path. Same goes with Sheila moving from the kitchen, upstairs- there would surely be some sort of blood spatters on the floor from where she has been.

Too much talk of people moving about, wounded and bleeding with no real evidence (that I can see) to back it up. All seems like far fetched explanations
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Kaldin on February 02, 2011, 01:22:PM
In my opinion, if I was shot, I'd put my hand to the injured part of my body, therefore smearing blood onto my hands and onto any surfaces I touched. If Neville was shot 4 times upstairs, then went downstairs you'd think there would be at least some sort of a blood trail tracing his path. Same goes with Sheila moving from the kitchen, upstairs- there would surely be some sort of blood spatters on the floor from where she has been.

Too much talk of people moving about, wounded and bleeding with no real evidence (that I can see) to back it up. All seems like far fetched explanations

There seems to be remarkably little blood around for so many injuries - or at least there is very little information on it.  You'd expect Neville to at least transfer blood to the wall when he was going down the stairs to the kitchen after he was shot in the bedroom.

I did find this bit in the appeal document.

Quote
Wallpaper from the hallway to the left-hand side of the kitchen door was found, on examination, to be stained with human blood consistent with the blood grouping shared by Nevill Bamber and the twin boys. Since the boys seem to have been shot in their beds, it is a clear inference that this was Mr. Bamber's blood.


I'm not sure what that means. It looks like they mean there was blood on the wall in the hall just outside the kitchen door to the hall. That suggests that Neville came down the main stairs to go to the kitchen after he was shot, not the back stairs to the kitchen. There's no mention of any other blood on the walls though, or on the stair rail.
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: cazbub on February 02, 2011, 01:36:PM
Ah well I suppose that shows that he did move downstairs after he was shot. Although why there is no mention of any blood on the stair rail is still odd.  Does anyone know if there was blood on the phone in the kitchen, alleged to have been used to call Jeremy and the police?

If not Neville would have been too ing and fro ing up and down the stairs while his daughter was running about with a gun!
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Kaldin on February 02, 2011, 01:46:PM
Ah well I suppose that shows that he did move downstairs after he was shot. Although why there is no mention of any blood on the stair rail is still odd.  Does anyone know if there was blood on the phone in the kitchen, alleged to have been used to call Jeremy and the police?

If not Neville would have been too ing and fro ing up and down the stairs while his daughter was running about with a gun!

I know a bit about that from the appeal document. Apparently, the telephone in the kitchen had no visible blood on it. The prosecution obviously thought that meant that Neville had not phoned Jeremy or there would have been blood on it. It didn't seem to occur to the defence that Neville might have phoned Jeremy before he was shot.

There was a suggestion at the appeal that the police had replaced the receiver and therefore wiped off any blood, but that theory was dismissed.

There was some blood on the surface about a foot from the phone apparently, but I'm not sure of the relevance of that.
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: mike tesko on February 02, 2011, 06:29:PM
In my opinion, if I was shot, I'd put my hand to the injured part of my body, therefore smearing blood onto my hands and onto any surfaces I touched. If Neville was shot 4 times upstairs, then went downstairs you'd think there would be at least some sort of a blood trail tracing his path. Same goes with Sheila moving from the kitchen, upstairs- there would surely be some sort of blood spatters on the floor from where she has been.

Too much talk of people moving about, wounded and bleeding with no real evidence (that I can see) to back it up. All seems like far fetched explanations
-----------------------------------------------------

Hang on a minute, lets get the fact right, (1) there is no blood trail from the main bedroom leading all the way downstairs to where Ralph Bambers body ended up, and so any suggestion that he was shot up to four times in the bedroom, cannot be seriously entertained. None of Ralph Bambers blood was found to be present at all inside the main bedroom, and so, as i say, or at least as I am trying to point out, I urge anyone who is remotely interested in the truth surrounding this feature of the case, to think long and hard and ask yourself if Ralph could have been shot up to four times in the bedroom and leave no microscopic trace of blood at all, anywhere in the bedroom, to suggest or to confirm that he had even been there in the bedroom at all, at the time the shootings started?

(2) as for Sheila having bled all the say upstairs, after, and if, she had been shot downstairs, beforehand - it is not true that there would necessarily be any blood spilled on the route taken by Sheila, if the wound had developed a clotted plug of dried blood which sealed the bullet wound entry hole. It would only take some 10 to 15 minutes or so, for the wound to the side of her neck to stop bleeding, and the entry hole to become sealed by a plug of clotted blood, and if that is what happened there would not be any blood pouring out all over the place, contaminating everything and anything in Sheila's wake, en route to the bedroom upstairs...

The smear of "O" type blood found on wallpaper on the main stairs, might not necessarily have been the blood from Ralph as everyone is assuming, since, the two child victims also had "O" type blood, and the bloodstained wall paper could just as easily have been blood from them...

Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Pete0001 on February 02, 2011, 07:41:PM


(2) as for Sheila having bled all the say upstairs, after, and if, she had been shot downstairs, beforehand - it is not true that there would necessarily be any blood spilled on the route taken by Sheila, if the wound had developed a clotted plug of dried blood which sealed the bullet wound entry hole. It would only take some 10 to 15 minutes or so, for the wound to the side of her neck to stop bleeding, and the entry hole to become sealed by a plug of clotted blood, and if that is what happened there would not be any blood pouring out all over the place, contaminating everything and anything in Sheila's wake, en route to the bedroom upstairs...


But would you agree though that for blood to clot sufficiently to stop any kind of bleeding from a gun shot wound, the wound would have to be left alone to clot.
I've cut my finger whilst cutting, fallen over and cut my knee, banged my head and low ceilings... grabbing the injured area for the majority of people is a basic natural reflex.
Its hard to accept (although I'm not saying its not what happened) that after taking a bullet to the neck the victim didn't interfere with the wound and just left it to clot.
Just an opinion as the whole scenario is speculation.
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Kaldin on February 02, 2011, 07:53:PM
In my opinion, if I was shot, I'd put my hand to the injured part of my body, therefore smearing blood onto my hands and onto any surfaces I touched. If Neville was shot 4 times upstairs, then went downstairs you'd think there would be at least some sort of a blood trail tracing his path. Same goes with Sheila moving from the kitchen, upstairs- there would surely be some sort of blood spatters on the floor from where she has been.

Too much talk of people moving about, wounded and bleeding with no real evidence (that I can see) to back it up. All seems like far fetched explanations
-----------------------------------------------------

Hang on a minute, lets get the fact right, (1) there is no blood trail from the main bedroom leading all the way downstairs to where Ralph Bambers body ended up, and so any suggestion that he was shot up to four times in the bedroom, cannot be seriously entertained. None of Ralph Bambers blood was found to be present at all inside the main bedroom, and so, as i say, or at least as I am trying to point out, I urge anyone who is remotely interested in the truth surrounding this feature of the case, to think long and hard and ask yourself if Ralph could have been shot up to four times in the bedroom and leave no microscopic trace of blood at all, anywhere in the bedroom, to suggest or to confirm that he had even been there in the bedroom at all, at the time the shootings started?

(2) as for Sheila having bled all the say upstairs, after, and if, she had been shot downstairs, beforehand - it is not true that there would necessarily be any blood spilled on the route taken by Sheila, if the wound had developed a clotted plug of dried blood which sealed the bullet wound entry hole. It would only take some 10 to 15 minutes or so, for the wound to the side of her neck to stop bleeding, and the entry hole to become sealed by a plug of clotted blood, and if that is what happened there would not be any blood pouring out all over the place, contaminating everything and anything in Sheila's wake, en route to the bedroom upstairs...

The smear of "O" type blood found on wallpaper on the main stairs, might not necessarily have been the blood from Ralph as everyone is assuming, since, the two child victims also had "O" type blood, and the bloodstained wall paper could just as easily have been blood from them...

What about the 13 cartridge cases found in the bedroom? I have a problem with that too, but I haven't seen any evidence that those cartridges were not there.

The blood on the wall is unlikely to have come from the boys as they were shot in their beds.
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: mike tesko on February 02, 2011, 07:58:PM


(2) as for Sheila having bled all the say upstairs, after, and if, she had been shot downstairs, beforehand - it is not true that there would necessarily be any blood spilled on the route taken by Sheila, if the wound had developed a clotted plug of dried blood which sealed the bullet wound entry hole. It would only take some 10 to 15 minutes or so, for the wound to the side of her neck to stop bleeding, and the entry hole to become sealed by a plug of clotted blood, and if that is what happened there would not be any blood pouring out all over the place, contaminating everything and anything in Sheila's wake, en route to the bedroom upstairs...


But would you agree though that for blood to clot sufficiently to stop any kind of bleeding from a gun shot wound, the wound would have to be left alone to clot.
I've cut my finger whilst cutting, fallen over and cut my knee, banged my head and low ceilings... grabbing the injured area for the majority of people is a basic natural reflex.
Its hard to accept (although I'm not saying its not what happened) that after taking a bullet to the neck the victim didn't interfere with the wound and just left it to clot.
Just an opinion as the whole scenario is speculation.
------------------------------------------------------------

I agree that it would be a natural instinctive reaction, for someone in Sheila's position, at the time she was shot in the side of the neck (bullet PV/20 - the original fragmented bullet), to force one of her hands or the fingers of one of her hands, onto and into the location or place where she was shot in the throat...

This is precisely the point I have been trying to make, since I feel that Sheila did precisely that at the time she was initially shot in the neck at a time when she was downstairs in the region of the kitchen...

I strongly suspect / believe, that when Sheila tried to take her own life (and failed) downstairs, that the fingers of her right hand, went immediately to the position on her neck where the bullet had penetrated the surface of the skin, and she pressed her fingers against, or over, or upon, the non fatal bullet entry wound, as she lay upon her right side, and that blood ran down the fingers of her right hand, and other parts of her hand, including the top part of her right hand, and pooled in the fold of her arm, and thus stained the top right hand side of her nightdress, whilst she then may have become temporarily unconscious, and over a period of time, say half an hour or more, or at least certainly just, after 8:10am, and by that stage, the non fatal wound had become sealed with a plug of clotted blood which prevented any further blood leaking, or running, or pouring from it, so that when she did regain consciousness, later, and she stood up, and walked about, and made her way upstairs to the main bedroom, that no blood from the original wound dripped or leaked or poured onto any carpet or article as she made her way en route to the main bedroom, to prove or confirm that she did make that journey...

No-one as yet provided a detailed explanation for how and when the triangular bloodstain got there on the top right side of her nightdress, well this is my explanation for how this could have happened...

Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Kaldin on February 02, 2011, 08:04:PM


(2) as for Sheila having bled all the say upstairs, after, and if, she had been shot downstairs, beforehand - it is not true that there would necessarily be any blood spilled on the route taken by Sheila, if the wound had developed a clotted plug of dried blood which sealed the bullet wound entry hole. It would only take some 10 to 15 minutes or so, for the wound to the side of her neck to stop bleeding, and the entry hole to become sealed by a plug of clotted blood, and if that is what happened there would not be any blood pouring out all over the place, contaminating everything and anything in Sheila's wake, en route to the bedroom upstairs...


But would you agree though that for blood to clot sufficiently to stop any kind of bleeding from a gun shot wound, the wound would have to be left alone to clot.
I've cut my finger whilst cutting, fallen over and cut my knee, banged my head and low ceilings... grabbing the injured area for the majority of people is a basic natural reflex.
Its hard to accept (although I'm not saying its not what happened) that after taking a bullet to the neck the victim didn't interfere with the wound and just left it to clot.
Just an opinion as the whole scenario is speculation.
------------------------------------------------------------

I agree that it would be a natural instinctive reaction, for someone in Sheila's position, at the time she was shot in the side of the neck (bullet PV/20 - the original fragmented bullet), to force one of her hands or the fingers of one of her hands, onto and into the location or place where she was shot in the throat...

This is precisely the point I have been trying to make, since I feel that Sheila did precisely that at the time she was initially shot in the neck at a time when she was downstairs in the region of the kitchen...

I strongly suspect / believe, that when Sheila tried to take her own life (and failed) downstairs, that the fingers of her right hand, went immediately to the position on her neck where the bullet had penetrated the surface of the skin, and she pressed her fingers against, or over, or upon, the non fatal bullet entry wound, as she lay upon her right side, and that blood ran down the fingers of her right hand, and other parts of her hand, including the top part of her right hand, and pooled in the fold of her arm, and thus stained the top right hand side of her nightdress, whilst she then may have become temporarily unconscious, and over a period of time, say half an hour or more, or at least certainly just, after 8:10am, and by that stage, the non fatal wound had become sealed with a plug of clotted blood which prevented any further blood leaking, or running, or pouring from it, so that when she did regain consciousness, later, and she stood up, and walked about, and made her way upstairs to the main bedroom, that no blood from the original wound dripped or leaked or poured onto any carpet or article as she made her way en route to the main bedroom, to prove or confirm that she did make that journey...

No-one as yet provided a detailed explanation for how and when the triangular bloodstain got there on the top right side of her nightdress, well this is my explanation for how this could have happened...

I would expect her to have put up her left hand as it's kind of awkward using your right hand - try it.

I agree that the triangular blood stain is odd - as if she was sitting up slightly and leaning to the right when she was shot. Perhaps she was and then slid to the floor later.
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: mike tesko on February 02, 2011, 08:47:PM


(2) as for Sheila having bled all the say upstairs, after, and if, she had been shot downstairs, beforehand - it is not true that there would necessarily be any blood spilled on the route taken by Sheila, if the wound had developed a clotted plug of dried blood which sealed the bullet wound entry hole. It would only take some 10 to 15 minutes or so, for the wound to the side of her neck to stop bleeding, and the entry hole to become sealed by a plug of clotted blood, and if that is what happened there would not be any blood pouring out all over the place, contaminating everything and anything in Sheila's wake, en route to the bedroom upstairs...


But would you agree though that for blood to clot sufficiently to stop any kind of bleeding from a gun shot wound, the wound would have to be left alone to clot.
I've cut my finger whilst cutting, fallen over and cut my knee, banged my head and low ceilings... grabbing the injured area for the majority of people is a basic natural reflex.
Its hard to accept (although I'm not saying its not what happened) that after taking a bullet to the neck the victim didn't interfere with the wound and just left it to clot.
Just an opinion as the whole scenario is speculation.
------------------------------------------------------------

I agree that it would be a natural instinctive reaction, for someone in Sheila's position, at the time she was shot in the side of the neck (bullet PV/20 - the original fragmented bullet), to force one of her hands or the fingers of one of her hands, onto and into the location or place where she was shot in the throat...

This is precisely the point I have been trying to make, since I feel that Sheila did precisely that at the time she was initially shot in the neck at a time when she was downstairs in the region of the kitchen...

I strongly suspect / believe, that when Sheila tried to take her own life (and failed) downstairs, that the fingers of her right hand, went immediately to the position on her neck where the bullet had penetrated the surface of the skin, and she pressed her fingers against, or over, or upon, the non fatal bullet entry wound, as she lay upon her right side, and that blood ran down the fingers of her right hand, and other parts of her hand, including the top part of her right hand, and pooled in the fold of her arm, and thus stained the top right hand side of her nightdress, whilst she then may have become temporarily unconscious, and over a period of time, say half an hour or more, or at least certainly just, after 8:10am, and by that stage, the non fatal wound had become sealed with a plug of clotted blood which prevented any further blood leaking, or running, or pouring from it, so that when she did regain consciousness, later, and she stood up, and walked about, and made her way upstairs to the main bedroom, that no blood from the original wound dripped or leaked or poured onto any carpet or article as she made her way en route to the main bedroom, to prove or confirm that she did make that journey...

No-one as yet provided a detailed explanation for how and when the triangular bloodstain got there on the top right side of her nightdress, well this is my explanation for how this could have happened...

I would expect her to have put up her left hand as it's kind of awkward using your right hand - try it.

I agree that the triangular blood stain is odd - as if she was sitting up slightly and leaning to the right when she was shot. Perhaps she was and then slid to the floor later.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This was looked at in some detail in 2003, and the suggestion that Sheila could have used the fingers of her left hand to put them at the wound on the right side of her neck or throat, would have resulted in a differently configured bloodstain on the opposite side of her nightdress - if she used the fingers of her right hand, blood would run down along the fingers of her right hand or the right hand, and pool in to void which was cerated in the fold of her right hand, and stain the corresponding portion of her nightdress - this is almost certainly what did take place, she used the fingers of her right hand to grasp the non fatal wound on the right side of her neck, and this was the source for why and how the triangular bloodstain on the upper right hand side of her nightdress, came into being...

You are not telling me that the police at the scene, (and Later) did not realize the significance of that triangular bloodstain on the top right hand side of her nightdress, and wonder how it got there?

It could not have got there, if Sheila used the fingers of her left hand, because there is no blood at all on her left hand, and there is no corresponding bloodstain on the top left hand side of the nightdress. or across her chest, to support such a suggestion. What we have got, if we believe or accept that the police found Sheila's body, as it is shown, undisturbed on the bedroom floor, by the side of the bed, with the gun upon the body, is an anomaly relating to the position of the triangular bloodstain on the upper right hand side of her nightdress, that cannot be reconciled with any idea that she took her own life and her right hand ended up on the gun in the region of the trigger, if it had been holding the wound site on the right hand side of her neck, after she was fatally shot, in the main bedroom?

I hope I am making myself clear to you, when I say this...

Please explain to me, if you can, how Sheila could have used the fingers of her right hand, to clutch at the wound on her throat and by the time she fell back onto the floor (if this is what you believe) and that her right hand fell so conveniently upon the rifle in the region of the trigger, as shown in the stage managed photographs?

There is no other explanation which could account for the presence of the triangular bloodstain which can be seen on the top upper right of Sheila's nightdress, other then, Sheila did use the fingers of her right hand to grasp at the wound on her neck / throat, and this took place before she was fatally shot under the chin, and this bears out the fact that Sheila was not shot twice in quick succession, as alleged by the prosecution during Jeremy's trial...

The triangular bloodstain on the upper part of Sheila's nightdress is not linked or associated with the fatal wound she inflicted upon herself under the chin in the bedroom - the blood runs in a totally different direction than the direction of the blood which can be seen to be leaking, and running, and pouring, from the two wounds upon her throat and neck...

Sheila was shot once downstairs, and once upstairs, and what is more, the police substituted the fragmented bullet (PV/20) which wounded her downstairs, for a whole bullet, (PV/20), so that the ballistic expert, could link both bullets, to the same gun...



Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Kaldin on February 02, 2011, 10:20:PM


This was looked at in some detail in 2003, and the suggestion that Sheila could have used the fingers of her left hand to put them at the wound on the right side of her neck or throat, would have resulted in a differently configured bloodstain on the opposite side of her nightdress - if she used the fingers of her right hand, blood would run down along the fingers of her right hand or the right hand, and pool in to void which was cerated in the fold of her right hand, and stain the corresponding portion of her nightdress - this is almost certainly what did take place, she used the fingers of her right hand to grasp the non fatal wound on the right side of her neck, and this was the source for why and how the triangular bloodstain on the upper right hand side of her nightdress, came into being...

You are not telling me that the police at the scene, (and Later) did not realize the significance of that triangular bloodstain on the top right hand side of her nightdress, and wonder how it got there?

It could not have got there, if Sheila used the fingers of her left hand, because there is no blood at all on her left hand, and there is no corresponding bloodstain on the top left hand side of the nightdress. or across her chest, to support such a suggestion. What we have got, if we believe or accept that the police found Sheila's body, as it is shown, undisturbed on the bedroom floor, by the side of the bed, with the gun upon the body, is an anomaly relating to the position of the triangular bloodstain on the upper right hand side of her nightdress, that cannot be reconciled with any idea that she took her own life and her right hand ended up on the gun in the region of the trigger, if it had been holding the wound site on the right hand side of her neck, after she was fatally shot, in the main bedroom?

I hope I am making myself clear to you, when I say this...

Please explain to me, if you can, how Sheila could have used the fingers of her right hand, to clutch at the wound on her throat and by the time she fell back onto the floor (if this is what you believe) and that her right hand fell so conveniently upon the rifle in the region of the trigger, as shown in the stage managed photographs?

There is no other explanation which could account for the presence of the triangular bloodstain which can be seen on the top upper right of Sheila's nightdress, other then, Sheila did use the fingers of her right hand to grasp at the wound on her neck / throat, and this took place before she was fatally shot under the chin, and this bears out the fact that Sheila was not shot twice in quick succession, as alleged by the prosecution during Jeremy's trial...

The triangular bloodstain on the upper part of Sheila's nightdress is not linked or associated with the fatal wound she inflicted upon herself under the chin in the bedroom - the blood runs in a totally different direction than the direction of the blood which can be seen to be leaking, and running, and pouring, from the two wounds upon her throat and neck...

Sheila was shot once downstairs, and once upstairs, and what is more, the police substituted the fragmented bullet (PV/20) which wounded her downstairs, for a whole bullet, (PV/20), so that the ballistic expert, could link both bullets, to the same gun...

I agree the blood could have got there that way, although there doesn't appear to be much blood on her right hand. There are those trickles around her right wrist though, so that could account for those.

If that is what happened, obviously she stopped holding the wound before she decided to shoot herself again. If it did happen, that scenario could apply whether she shot herself once in the kitchen or twice in the bedroom.

There is another explanation though. If you look at the picture of Sheila you'll see that she's lying in a very awkward position. Her legs are reasonably straight but her head is twisted to the right. I don't think that is the position she was in when she was shot - either by herself or another person. You wouldn't lie down like that if you were going to shoot yourself. It's possible that she was sitting up with her left side against the bed leaning slightly to the right, and she shot herself. The blood ran to the right and down over her nightdress. She then shoots herself again and this time succeeds and falls back and her head hits the cabinet and twists to her right. That's how her head might have ended up at the funny angle.

If someone else shot her then she almost certainly didn't put up her right hand to the first wound but the above scenario could still apply in theory.

I do agree that her position and the blood stain are very odd. Once things seems to be for sure. That blood did not run in that direction onto her nightdress when she was lying on the floor in that position - it would have gone down the side of her neck.

Whatever the truth, I do find it hard to believe that she just sat there whilst someone put a gun to her throat.

Was she at all drugged up or sedated or anything?

Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Pete0001 on February 02, 2011, 10:24:PM
Another point that strikes me is... For everyone to believe that it was suicide the shots to her neck would have to be fired at the right angle...

One wrongly angled shot and the idea that it was suicide is blown apart.

IF Jeremy had killed her to make it look like suicide it was a massive risk that he could get those shots right... surely not an easy task... one wrong shot, defence wounds etc and his plan is useless...
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: bb2010 on February 02, 2011, 10:34:PM


This was looked at in some detail in 2003, and the suggestion that Sheila could have used the fingers of her left hand to put them at the wound on the right side of her neck or throat, would have resulted in a differently configured bloodstain on the opposite side of her nightdress - if she used the fingers of her right hand, blood would run down along the fingers of her right hand or the right hand, and pool in to void which was cerated in the fold of her right hand, and stain the corresponding portion of her nightdress - this is almost certainly what did take place, she used the fingers of her right hand to grasp the non fatal wound on the right side of her neck, and this was the source for why and how the triangular bloodstain on the upper right hand side of her nightdress, came into being...

You are not telling me that the police at the scene, (and Later) did not realize the significance of that triangular bloodstain on the top right hand side of her nightdress, and wonder how it got there?

It could not have got there, if Sheila used the fingers of her left hand, because there is no blood at all on her left hand, and there is no corresponding bloodstain on the top left hand side of the nightdress. or across her chest, to support such a suggestion. What we have got, if we believe or accept that the police found Sheila's body, as it is shown, undisturbed on the bedroom floor, by the side of the bed, with the gun upon the body, is an anomaly relating to the position of the triangular bloodstain on the upper right hand side of her nightdress, that cannot be reconciled with any idea that she took her own life and her right hand ended up on the gun in the region of the trigger, if it had been holding the wound site on the right hand side of her neck, after she was fatally shot, in the main bedroom?

I hope I am making myself clear to you, when I say this...

Please explain to me, if you can, how Sheila could have used the fingers of her right hand, to clutch at the wound on her throat and by the time she fell back onto the floor (if this is what you believe) and that her right hand fell so conveniently upon the rifle in the region of the trigger, as shown in the stage managed photographs?

There is no other explanation which could account for the presence of the triangular bloodstain which can be seen on the top upper right of Sheila's nightdress, other then, Sheila did use the fingers of her right hand to grasp at the wound on her neck / throat, and this took place before she was fatally shot under the chin, and this bears out the fact that Sheila was not shot twice in quick succession, as alleged by the prosecution during Jeremy's trial...

The triangular bloodstain on the upper part of Sheila's nightdress is not linked or associated with the fatal wound she inflicted upon herself under the chin in the bedroom - the blood runs in a totally different direction than the direction of the blood which can be seen to be leaking, and running, and pouring, from the two wounds upon her throat and neck...

Sheila was shot once downstairs, and once upstairs, and what is more, the police substituted the fragmented bullet (PV/20) which wounded her downstairs, for a whole bullet, (PV/20), so that the ballistic expert, could link both bullets, to the same gun...

I agree the blood could have got there that way, although there doesn't appear to be much blood on her right hand. There are those trickles around her right wrist though, so that could account for those.

If that is what happened, obviously she stopped holding the wound before she decided to shoot herself again. If it did happen, that scenario could apply whether she shot herself once in the kitchen or twice in the bedroom.

There is another explanation though. If you look at the picture of Sheila you'll see that she's lying in a very awkward position. Her legs are reasonably straight but her head is twisted to the right. I don't think that is the position she was in when she was shot - either by herself or another person. You wouldn't lie down like that if you were going to shoot yourself. It's possible that she was sitting up with her left side against the bed leaning slightly to the right, and she shot herself. The blood ran to the right and down over her nightdress. She then shoots herself again and this time succeeds and falls back and her head hits the cabinet and twists to her right. That's how her head might have ended up at the funny angle.

If someone else shot her then she almost certainly didn't put up her right hand to the first wound but the above scenario could still apply in theory.

I do agree that her position and the blood stain are very odd. Once things seems to be for sure. That blood did not run in that direction onto her nightdress when she was lying on the floor in that position - it would have gone down the side of her neck.

Whatever the truth, I do find it hard to believe that she just sat there whilst someone put a gun to her throat.

Was she at all drugged up or sedated or anything?


Sedation is mentioned in the 2002 Appeal paragraph 148

"Sheila Caffell, probably in a sedated state from her medication, was also shot in the bedroom. "
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: bb2010 on February 02, 2011, 10:36:PM
Another point that strikes me is... For everyone to believe that it was suicide the shots to her neck would have to be fired at the right angle...

One wrongly angled shot and the idea that it was suicide is blown apart.

IF Jeremy had killed her to make it look like suicide it was a massive risk that he could get those shots right... surely not an easy task... one wrong shot, defence wounds etc and his plan is useless...

With reference to the last paragraph - the first shot wasn't right, the second one was?
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Kaldin on February 02, 2011, 10:37:PM
Another point that strikes me is... For everyone to believe that it was suicide the shots to her neck would have to be fired at the right angle...

One wrongly angled shot and the idea that it was suicide is blown apart.

IF Jeremy had killed her to make it look like suicide it was a massive risk that he could get those shots right... surely not an easy task... one wrong shot, defence wounds etc and his plan is useless...

I agree, and it's one of the things which makes me doubt his guilt. It was a huge gamble. He couldn't be sure she would just sit there and let him do it.
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Pete0001 on February 02, 2011, 10:38:PM
Wasn't right to kill her.. but could still have been of the correct angle..
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: mike tesko on February 02, 2011, 10:41:PM


This was looked at in some detail in 2003, and the suggestion that Sheila could have used the fingers of her left hand to put them at the wound on the right side of her neck or throat, would have resulted in a differently configured bloodstain on the opposite side of her nightdress - if she used the fingers of her right hand, blood would run down along the fingers of her right hand or the right hand, and pool in to void which was cerated in the fold of her right hand, and stain the corresponding portion of her nightdress - this is almost certainly what did take place, she used the fingers of her right hand to grasp the non fatal wound on the right side of her neck, and this was the source for why and how the triangular bloodstain on the upper right hand side of her nightdress, came into being...

You are not telling me that the police at the scene, (and Later) did not realize the significance of that triangular bloodstain on the top right hand side of her nightdress, and wonder how it got there?

It could not have got there, if Sheila used the fingers of her left hand, because there is no blood at all on her left hand, and there is no corresponding bloodstain on the top left hand side of the nightdress. or across her chest, to support such a suggestion. What we have got, if we believe or accept that the police found Sheila's body, as it is shown, undisturbed on the bedroom floor, by the side of the bed, with the gun upon the body, is an anomaly relating to the position of the triangular bloodstain on the upper right hand side of her nightdress, that cannot be reconciled with any idea that she took her own life and her right hand ended up on the gun in the region of the trigger, if it had been holding the wound site on the right hand side of her neck, after she was fatally shot, in the main bedroom?

I hope I am making myself clear to you, when I say this...

Please explain to me, if you can, how Sheila could have used the fingers of her right hand, to clutch at the wound on her throat and by the time she fell back onto the floor (if this is what you believe) and that her right hand fell so conveniently upon the rifle in the region of the trigger, as shown in the stage managed photographs?

There is no other explanation which could account for the presence of the triangular bloodstain which can be seen on the top upper right of Sheila's nightdress, other then, Sheila did use the fingers of her right hand to grasp at the wound on her neck / throat, and this took place before she was fatally shot under the chin, and this bears out the fact that Sheila was not shot twice in quick succession, as alleged by the prosecution during Jeremy's trial...

The triangular bloodstain on the upper part of Sheila's nightdress is not linked or associated with the fatal wound she inflicted upon herself under the chin in the bedroom - the blood runs in a totally different direction than the direction of the blood which can be seen to be leaking, and running, and pouring, from the two wounds upon her throat and neck...

Sheila was shot once downstairs, and once upstairs, and what is more, the police substituted the fragmented bullet (PV/20) which wounded her downstairs, for a whole bullet, (PV/20), so that the ballistic expert, could link both bullets, to the same gun...

I agree the blood could have got there that way, although there doesn't appear to be much blood on her right hand. There are those trickles around her right wrist though, so that could account for those.

If that is what happened, obviously she stopped holding the wound before she decided to shoot herself again. If it did happen, that scenario could apply whether she shot herself once in the kitchen or twice in the bedroom.

There is another explanation though. If you look at the picture of Sheila you'll see that she's lying in a very awkward position. Her legs are reasonably straight but her head is twisted to the right. I don't think that is the position she was in when she was shot - either by herself or another person. You wouldn't lie down like that if you were going to shoot yourself. It's possible that she was sitting up with her left side against the bed leaning slightly to the right, and she shot herself. The blood ran to the right and down over her nightdress. She then shoots herself again and this time succeeds and falls back and her head hits the cabinet and twists to her right. That's how her head might have ended up at the funny angle.

If someone else shot her then she almost certainly didn't put up her right hand to the first wound but the above scenario could still apply in theory.

I do agree that her position and the blood stain are very odd. Once things seems to be for sure. That blood did not run in that direction onto her nightdress when she was lying on the floor in that position - it would have gone down the side of her neck.

Whatever the truth, I do find it hard to believe that she just sat there whilst someone put a gun to her throat.

Was she at all drugged up or sedated or anything?
--------------------------------------------------------

Quite a bit of blood which had originally been present upon the fingers of Sheila's right hand were transferred at some point, onto the front lower part of her light blue nightdress, and might help to explain why there does not appear to be a significant amount of blood on the fingers of her right hand when it was photographed...
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Pete0001 on February 02, 2011, 10:44:PM
Wasn't right to kill her.. but could still have been of the correct angle..

What I mean is.. once the gun barrel passes a certain angle there would be serious doubt, even more doubt as to whether she could do that... also had the person that shot Sheila shot her elsewhere on her body or accidently misjudged the shots then the whole "make it look like suicide" plan would be ruined and leaves the gun person with a real big problem..... that's a massive gamble after having shot the whole family.. everything before those last shots to Sheila hinged on how authentic the shooter made those injuries appear.

Big gamble...
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Kaldin on February 02, 2011, 10:46:PM



Sedation is mentioned in the 2002 Appeal paragraph 148

"Sheila Caffell, probably in a sedated state from her medication, was also shot in the bedroom. "

Hmmmmm, she was having injections of haloperidol I think. I did read that her dose had been reduced. I don't know how drowsy that would make her, but I'll have a read about that.
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Kaldin on February 02, 2011, 10:50:PM


Quite a bit of blood which had originally been present upon the fingers of Sheila's right hand were transferred at some point, onto the front lower part of her light blue nightdress, and might help to explain why there does not appear to be a significant amount of blood on the fingers of her right hand when it was photographed...

I read something about a hand print on her nightdress. Didn't the prosecution try to introduce that as evidence at the 2002 appeal?
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Kaldin on February 02, 2011, 10:51:PM
Wasn't right to kill her.. but could still have been of the correct angle..

What I mean is.. once the gun barrel passes a certain angle there would be serious doubt, even more doubt as to whether she could do that... also had the person that shot Sheila shot her elsewhere on her body or accidently misjudged the shots then the whole "make it look like suicide" plan would be ruined and leaves the gun person with a real big problem..... that's a massive gamble after having shot the whole family.. everything before those last shots to Sheila hinged on how authentic the shooter made those injuries appear.

Big gamble...

Absolutely - I agree.
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Tricksy on February 02, 2011, 10:59:PM
Another point that strikes me is... For everyone to believe that it was suicide the shots to her neck would have to be fired at the right angle...

One wrongly angled shot and the idea that it was suicide is blown apart.

IF Jeremy had killed her to make it look like suicide it was a massive risk that he could get those shots right... surely not an easy task... one wrong shot, defence wounds etc and his plan is useless...

Hi. I'm a newbie. I remember this case when it happened. I have to say, that at this point I am not sure of Jeremy Baber's innocence or guilt, as I do believe I don't know enough about the case to make that judgement.

However, I do think that there is a legitimate claim for him to receive a new trial, what with details being withheld from the prosecution by the defence and the Police. The Police also seemed to have made several cock ups in the investigation.

I agree with your point re: Shelia. I read in the 2002 appeal that she was taking Haloperidol, by means of a monthly injection. I don't know much about this drug, but it would be interesting to know at what dosage she was taking it and any potential side affects.

I agree with what you said about Bamber having to have taken a hell of a risk to make it look like a suicide.

My question is regarding the gun/shootings. Now it is a given that Jeremy was a good shot with a gun. There is some debate as to whether or not Shelia had ever shot a gun. My question is, if any one on here has handled a gun, how easy do you think it would be to shoot and make it look like the person handling the gun was not experienced (if you actually were an experienced shooter)?

I may be barking up the wrong tree here or being incredibly dense, but I am someone who has never handled a gun, so I just wondered how easy this would be to stage?
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Kaldin on February 02, 2011, 11:05:PM
Another point that strikes me is... For everyone to believe that it was suicide the shots to her neck would have to be fired at the right angle...

One wrongly angled shot and the idea that it was suicide is blown apart.

IF Jeremy had killed her to make it look like suicide it was a massive risk that he could get those shots right... surely not an easy task... one wrong shot, defence wounds etc and his plan is useless...

Hi. I'm a newbie. I remember this case when it happened. I have to say, that at this point I am not sure of Jeremy Baber's innocence or guilt, as I do believe I don't know enough about the case to make that judgement.

However, I do think that there is a legitimate claim for him to receive a new trial, what with details being withheld from the prosecution by the defence and the Police. The Police also seemed to have made several cock ups in the investigation.

I agree with your point re: Shelia. I read in the 2002 appeal that she was taking Haloperidol, by means of a monthly injection. I don't know much about this drug, but it would be interesting to know at what dosage she was taking it and any potential side affects.

I agree with what you said about Bamber having to have taken a hell of a risk to make it look like a suicide.

My question is regarding the gun/shootings. Now it is a given that Jeremy was a good shot with a gun. There is some debate as to whether or not Shelia had ever shot a gun. My question is, if any one on here has handled a gun, how easy do you think it would be to shoot and make it look like the person handling the gun was not experienced (if you actually were an experienced shooter)?

I may be barking up the wrong tree here or being incredibly dense, but I am someone who has never handled a gun, so I just wondered how easy this would be to stage?

Hello!

I've never handled a gun in my life so I don't know much about them. One thing that strikes me about all this though is that every single shot hit someone. There were 25 wounds and 25 empty cases. I know they were reasonably close-range shots but even so ....

Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: mike tesko on February 02, 2011, 11:08:PM
Another point that strikes me is... For everyone to believe that it was suicide the shots to her neck would have to be fired at the right angle...

One wrongly angled shot and the idea that it was suicide is blown apart.

IF Jeremy had killed her to make it look like suicide it was a massive risk that he could get those shots right... surely not an easy task... one wrong shot, defence wounds etc and his plan is useless...

Hi. I'm a newbie. I remember this case when it happened. I have to say, that at this point I am not sure of Jeremy Baber's innocence or guilt, as I do believe I don't know enough about the case to make that judgement.

However, I do think that there is a legitimate claim for him to receive a new trial, what with details being withheld from the prosecution by the defence and the Police. The Police also seemed to have made several cock ups in the investigation.

I agree with your point re: Shelia. I read in the 2002 appeal that she was taking Haloperidol, by means of a monthly injection. I don't know much about this drug, but it would be interesting to know at what dosage she was taking it and any potential side affects.

I agree with what you said about Bamber having to have taken a hell of a risk to make it look like a suicide.

My question is regarding the gun/shootings. Now it is a given that Jeremy was a good shot with a gun. There is some debate as to whether or not Shelia had ever shot a gun. My question is, if any one on here has handled a gun, how easy do you think it would be to shoot and make it look like the person handling the gun was not experienced (if you actually were an experienced shooter)?

I may be barking up the wrong tree here or being incredibly dense, but I am someone who has never handled a gun, so I just wondered how easy this would be to stage?

Hello!

I've never handled a gun in my life so I don't know much about them. One thing that strikes me about all this though is that every single shot hit someone. There were 25 wounds and 25 empty cases. I know they were reasonably close-range shots but even so ....
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

most shots were inflicted or discharged either at close contact, or contact, so you could hardly miss, no matter how proficient a shot you might think you are...

The other shots which struck a victim - that were fired from a greater distance, how do you know that such bullets struck the intended target, or part of the victims body, that it was intended to hit or strike?
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Tricksy on February 02, 2011, 11:14:PM


Hello!

I've never handled a gun in my life so I don't know much about them. One thing that strikes me about all this though is that every single shot hit someone. There were 25 wounds and 25 empty cases. I know they were reasonably close-range shots but even so ....

Hi.  :D Thanks for coming back to me on this.

You make a fair point, the shots did all hit. I know there was talk of Shelia having been on a shooting holiday.

Its a difficult one. If Bamber had been shooting, I would have expected him to have produced more fatal wounding in less shots.

However, if he were staging the shooting so that it looked like Shelia, I would have expected far more pot shots if you like. You make the incredibly good point that all shots wounded the victims. If I were to shoot a gun, given my lack of experience, I think I would have peppered the walls, the floor, that sort of thing.

So either Shelia had some shooting experience. Or the shots were staged?
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Tricksy on February 02, 2011, 11:17:PM
Another point that strikes me is... For everyone to believe that it was suicide the shots to her neck would have to be fired at the right angle...

One wrongly angled shot and the idea that it was suicide is blown apart.

IF Jeremy had killed her to make it look like suicide it was a massive risk that he could get those shots right... surely not an easy task... one wrong shot, defence wounds etc and his plan is useless...

Hi. I'm a newbie. I remember this case when it happened. I have to say, that at this point I am not sure of Jeremy Baber's innocence or guilt, as I do believe I don't know enough about the case to make that judgement.

However, I do think that there is a legitimate claim for him to receive a new trial, what with details being withheld from the prosecution by the defence and the Police. The Police also seemed to have made several cock ups in the investigation.

I agree with your point re: Shelia. I read in the 2002 appeal that she was taking Haloperidol, by means of a monthly injection. I don't know much about this drug, but it would be interesting to know at what dosage she was taking it and any potential side affects.

I agree with what you said about Bamber having to have taken a hell of a risk to make it look like a suicide.

My question is regarding the gun/shootings. Now it is a given that Jeremy was a good shot with a gun. There is some debate as to whether or not Shelia had ever shot a gun. My question is, if any one on here has handled a gun, how easy do you think it would be to shoot and make it look like the person handling the gun was not experienced (if you actually were an experienced shooter)?

I may be barking up the wrong tree here or being incredibly dense, but I am someone who has never handled a gun, so I just wondered how easy this would be to stage?

Hello!

I've never handled a gun in my life so I don't know much about them. One thing that strikes me about all this though is that every single shot hit someone. There were 25 wounds and 25 empty cases. I know they were reasonably close-range shots but even so ....
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

most shots were inflicted or discharged either at close contact, or contact, so you could hardly miss, no matter how proficient a shot you might think you are...

The other shots which struck a victim - that were fired from a greater distance, how do you know that such bullets struck the intended target, or part of the victims body, that it was intended to hit or strike?

I have to say, I don't know how close the shots were fired from. I have read some of the case but not all of it.

It was just something I was mulling around in my own head.
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Kaldin on February 02, 2011, 11:31:PM


Hello!

I've never handled a gun in my life so I don't know much about them. One thing that strikes me about all this though is that every single shot hit someone. There were 25 wounds and 25 empty cases. I know they were reasonably close-range shots but even so ....

Hi.  :D Thanks for coming back to me on this.

You make a fair point, the shots did all hit. I know there was talk of Shelia having been on a shooting holiday.

Its a difficult one. If Bamber had been shooting, I would have expected him to have produced more fatal wounding in less shots.

However, if he were staging the shooting so that it looked like Shelia, I would have expected far more pot shots if you like. You make the incredibly good point that all shots wounded the victims. If I were to shoot a gun, given my lack of experience, I think I would have peppered the walls, the floor, that sort of thing.

So either Shelia had some shooting experience. Or the shots were staged?

Yes! I think that if Sheila did it there would have been pot shots because she must have been in a bit of a state, and if Jeremy did it he would have done some pot shots too to make it look like Sheila did it.
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: mike tesko on February 02, 2011, 11:41:PM


Hello!

I've never handled a gun in my life so I don't know much about them. One thing that strikes me about all this though is that every single shot hit someone. There were 25 wounds and 25 empty cases. I know they were reasonably close-range shots but even so ....

Hi.  :D Thanks for coming back to me on this.

You make a fair point, the shots did all hit. I know there was talk of Shelia having been on a shooting holiday.

Its a difficult one. If Bamber had been shooting, I would have expected him to have produced more fatal wounding in less shots.

However, if he were staging the shooting so that it looked like Shelia, I would have expected far more pot shots if you like. You make the incredibly good point that all shots wounded the victims. If I were to shoot a gun, given my lack of experience, I think I would have peppered the walls, the floor, that sort of thing.

So either Shelia had some shooting experience. Or the shots were staged?
------------------------------------------

With respect, if you pulled the trigger of the gun, and the end of the barrel was in a contact, or close contact position, I doubt very much that you would miss theb, target, or pepper the walls, as you put it...
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Tricksy on February 02, 2011, 11:47:PM
I bet you I would!

Based on my experiences from firing air rifles alone, many years ago, I am useless!  ;)
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Kaldin on February 02, 2011, 11:51:PM


Hello!

I've never handled a gun in my life so I don't know much about them. One thing that strikes me about all this though is that every single shot hit someone. There were 25 wounds and 25 empty cases. I know they were reasonably close-range shots but even so ....

Hi.  :D Thanks for coming back to me on this.

You make a fair point, the shots did all hit. I know there was talk of Shelia having been on a shooting holiday.

Its a difficult one. If Bamber had been shooting, I would have expected him to have produced more fatal wounding in less shots.

However, if he were staging the shooting so that it looked like Shelia, I would have expected far more pot shots if you like. You make the incredibly good point that all shots wounded the victims. If I were to shoot a gun, given my lack of experience, I think I would have peppered the walls, the floor, that sort of thing.

So either Shelia had some shooting experience. Or the shots were staged?
------------------------------------------

With respect, if you pulled the trigger of the gun, and the end of the barrel was in a contact, or close contact position, I doubt very much that you would miss theb, target, or pepper the walls, as you put it...

Presumably the victims weren't just standing there - well not Neville or June anyway. In the kitchen if there was a fight, the chances of a few bullets going astray would be quite high in my opinion.
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Tricksy on February 02, 2011, 11:58:PM
Kaldin, thats what I would have thought too.

In a scuffle, I would have expected shots in the ceiling or walls, etc.
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: mike tesko on February 03, 2011, 12:14:AM


Hello!

I've never handled a gun in my life so I don't know much about them. One thing that strikes me about all this though is that every single shot hit someone. There were 25 wounds and 25 empty cases. I know they were reasonably close-range shots but even so ....

Hi.  :D Thanks for coming back to me on this.

You make a fair point, the shots did all hit. I know there was talk of Shelia having been on a shooting holiday.

Its a difficult one. If Bamber had been shooting, I would have expected him to have produced more fatal wounding in less shots.

However, if he were staging the shooting so that it looked like Shelia, I would have expected far more pot shots if you like. You make the incredibly good point that all shots wounded the victims. If I were to shoot a gun, given my lack of experience, I think I would have peppered the walls, the floor, that sort of thing.

So either Shelia had some shooting experience. Or the shots were staged?
------------------------------------------

With respect, if you pulled the trigger of the gun, and the end of the barrel was in a contact, or close contact position, I doubt very much that you would miss theb, target, or pepper the walls, as you put it...

Presumably the victims weren't just standing there - well not Neville or June anyway. In the kitchen if there was a fight, the chances of a few bullets going astray would be quite high in my opinion.
-----------------------------

Not if there were no more bullets left in the guns ammunition magazine - since, after the first ten (10) bullets had been discharged from the gun, it needed to be reloaded. You could hardly fire off a few loose shots into the ceiling if there were no bullets in the gun to discharge from it...
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: mike tesko on February 03, 2011, 12:19:AM
Kaldin, thats what I would have thought too.

In a scuffle, I would have expected shots in the ceiling or walls, etc.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
If, as alleged by the prosecution, any struggle ensued in the kitchen between Ralph and his killer, there would be no more bullets left in the gun by the time the shooter got downstairs into the kitchen with a view to reloading the gun with bullets, that were situated on the kitchen worktop, close to the phone...

You would not be able to fire loose bullets into the ceiling, because there were no more bullets in the gun until it was reloaded...

It should be borne in mind that the only opportunity for the shooter to become engaged in some sort of a struggle with Ralph Bamber, was at a time when the gun needed to be reloaded with bullets...





Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Kaldin on February 03, 2011, 12:20:AM


Hello!

I've never handled a gun in my life so I don't know much about them. One thing that strikes me about all this though is that every single shot hit someone. There were 25 wounds and 25 empty cases. I know they were reasonably close-range shots but even so ....

Hi.  :D Thanks for coming back to me on this.

You make a fair point, the shots did all hit. I know there was talk of Shelia having been on a shooting holiday.

Its a difficult one. If Bamber had been shooting, I would have expected him to have produced more fatal wounding in less shots.

However, if he were staging the shooting so that it looked like Shelia, I would have expected far more pot shots if you like. You make the incredibly good point that all shots wounded the victims. If I were to shoot a gun, given my lack of experience, I think I would have peppered the walls, the floor, that sort of thing.

So either Shelia had some shooting experience. Or the shots were staged?
------------------------------------------

With respect, if you pulled the trigger of the gun, and the end of the barrel was in a contact, or close contact position, I doubt very much that you would miss theb, target, or pepper the walls, as you put it...

Presumably the victims weren't just standing there - well not Neville or June anyway. In the kitchen if there was a fight, the chances of a few bullets going astray would be quite high in my opinion.
-----------------------------

Not if there were no more bullets left in the guns ammunition magazine - since, after the first ten (10) bullets had been discharged from the gun, it needed to be reloaded. You could hardly fire off a few loose shots into the ceiling if there were no bullets in the gun to discharge from it...

According to you, Neville was only shot once before the gun had to be reloaded. Obviously, I meant after the gun had been reloaded with ten more bullets. Neville would still have been in a position to fight with his attacker.

Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Kaldin on February 03, 2011, 12:21:AM

If, as alleged by the prosecution, any struggle ensued in the kitchen between Ralph and his killer, there would be no more bullets left in the gun by the time the shooter got downstairs into the kitchen with a view to reloading the gun with bullets, that were situated on the kitchen worktop, close to the phone...

You would not be able to fire loose bullets into the ceiling, because there were no more bullets in the gun until it was reloaded...

It should be borne in mind that the only opportunity for the shooter to become engaged in some sort of a struggle with Ralph Bamber, was at a time when the gun needed to be reloaded with bullets...

And what happened after that? Neville just stood there and let someone shoot him?
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: mike tesko on February 03, 2011, 12:58:AM

If, as alleged by the prosecution, any struggle ensued in the kitchen between Ralph and his killer, there would be no more bullets left in the gun by the time the shooter got downstairs into the kitchen with a view to reloading the gun with bullets, that were situated on the kitchen worktop, close to the phone...

You would not be able to fire loose bullets into the ceiling, because there were no more bullets in the gun until it was reloaded...

It should be borne in mind that the only opportunity for the shooter to become engaged in some sort of a struggle with Ralph Bamber, was at a time when the gun needed to be reloaded with bullets...

And what happened after that? Neville just stood there and let someone shoot him?
--------------------------------------------------------------------

He did not, no, there was the struggle that everyone has been talking about, at the end of which Ralph may have gone back upstairs to tend to June and the children, without knowing that all three were already dead...
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: bb2010 on February 03, 2011, 09:19:AM
Remind me -

Hadn't Ralph taken a beating with the butt end of the rifle?
Didn't the butt end of the rifle get broken?

Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Kaldin on February 03, 2011, 10:46:AM
Remind me -

Hadn't Ralph taken a beating with the butt end of the rifle?
Didn't the butt end of the rifle get broken?

The rifle did get broken, but it's not clear how.

From the Appeal document:

Quote
The stock was damaged, with a piece of wood missing. The broken piece of wood found on the floor in the kitchen was the missing part of the stock.
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: bb2010 on February 03, 2011, 11:05:AM
Thanks Kaldin

Yes, had another look at the appeal document and it answers my question. Paragraphs 41 & 42

"There were two wounds to the right side and two to the top of the head. If not immediately fatal, the combined effect of these four injuries would have been immediate unconsciousness and incapacitation. There was a wound to the left side of the lip and another to the left part of the lower jaw. This injury caused severe fracturing of the jaw, of the teeth in that area and damaged soft tissue in the neck and the larynx. These features of this particular injury and the resultant flow of blood into the mouth meant, in the pathologist's opinion, that Nevill Bamber would not have been able to engage in purposeful talk. There were also gunshot wounds to the left shoulder and a grazing wound above the left elbow.
The examination of Nevill Bamber's body also revealed black eyes and a broken nose, linear bruising to the cheeks, lacerations to the head, linear type bruising to the right forearm, bruising to the left wrist and forearm and three circular burn type marks to the back. The linear marks were consistent with Mr Bamber having been struck with a long blunt object, possibly a gun."
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Kaldin on February 03, 2011, 11:13:AM
I'm not saying that Neville wasn't hit with the gun, but if the piece of wood got broken when he was struck with it, that must have been a very severe blow, unless the wood was already a bit loose.  Is it not more likely that the piece of wood broke off when a solid piece of furniture was struck during the struggle?

If it did happen when Neville was struck, it sounds as if the gun was turned round at some point and the butt was used to attack him.

Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: cazbub on February 03, 2011, 12:01:PM
Right, I'm getting confused now. It seems as though Sheila and Ralth were running up and down the stairs, seems very odd! Surely if your daughter had "gone berserk" with a gun, you wouldn't be faffing about running up and down the stairs whilst she's reloading the guns she's already been shooting with.

With regard to the butt of the gun, the attacker would surely have used it when there is no ammunition left in the gun, to knock Neville out in order to reload it? Just a thought.
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: bb2010 on February 03, 2011, 12:12:PM
Remember that 'daughter gone beserk' is only something that Jeremy said that Ralph said.

Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: cazbub on February 03, 2011, 12:15:PM
Yes, true. But if Sheila was in the house with a gun, surely Neville wouldnt be leaving his wife on her own and letting Sheila out of his sight. Whether she'd been shooting or not she was clearly mentally unstable.
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: bb2010 on February 03, 2011, 12:33:PM
Perhaps Ralph didn't have a choice?
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Kaldin on February 03, 2011, 01:32:PM
Right, I'm getting confused now. It seems as though Sheila and Ralth were running up and down the stairs, seems very odd! Surely if your daughter had "gone berserk" with a gun, you wouldn't be faffing about running up and down the stairs whilst she's reloading the guns she's already been shooting with.

With regard to the butt of the gun, the attacker would surely have used it when there is no ammunition left in the gun, to knock Neville out in order to reload it? Just a thought.

Absolutely. This is something I can't get my head round. If Neville had been found in the bedroom with June it would all be so much easier but he wasn't. He was in the kitchen when he died, but there were only four cartridges there, so at some point he was shot elsewhere - in the bedroom according to the reports.

The butt of the gun could have been used for that purpose, but even so - would that break the butt?
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: bb2010 on February 03, 2011, 01:48:PM
We know he was in his pyjamas when found in the kitchen. If we assume that he started upstairs, and may have been shot there, how many bullet cases do we need to find?

For example, we know that there were gunshot wounds to his left shoulder. Do we know how many? Do we know if the grazing wound above the left elbow was caused by a bullet?

Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Kaldin on February 03, 2011, 02:34:PM
We know he was in his pyjamas when found in the kitchen. If we assume that he started upstairs, and may have been shot there, how many bullet cases do we need to find?

For example, we know that there were gunshot wounds to his left shoulder. Do we know how many? Do we know if the grazing wound above the left elbow was caused by a bullet?

He had eight bullet wounds altogether. As I understand it, these were:

Right side of head - 2
Top of head - 2
Lip - 1
Jaw - 1
Left shoulder - 1 or 2.

I'm not sure about the last one either because in the Appeal document it says this:

Quote
There were also gunshot wounds to the left shoulder and a grazing wound above the left elbow.


That implies there was more than one shot to his left shoulder, but it also implies that one of the shots grazed his arm just above the elbow.

In any case, he had eight wounds from the gun. Four cartridges were found in the kitchen (including one on the back stairs), so four of the shots were in the kitchen. In the bedroom they found 13 cartridges, so he was presumably shot four times there as well.

Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: bb2010 on February 03, 2011, 02:39:PM
So can we assume that he took four non fatal shots in the bedroom and either made it downstairs by himself or was forced downstairs by the shooter? Remember he may be being held by the shooter when he is in the bedroom (ref the gouge marks on his arm).

Do we then need him to go back upstairs again?
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Kaldin on February 03, 2011, 02:49:PM
So can we assume that he took four non fatal shots in the bedroom and either made it downstairs by himself or was forced downstairs by the shooter? Remember he may be being held by the shooter when he is in the bedroom (ref the gouge marks on his arm).

Do we then need him to go back upstairs again?

Well I have assumed that he was shot four times first in the bedroom, then he was shot four times in the kitchen where he died. It doesn't make sense any other way.

However, according to Mike, he was shot at least once in the kitchen before he was shot in the bedroom. Now that really confuses me.  ???
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: bb2010 on February 03, 2011, 02:50:PM
And me.
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: cazbub on February 03, 2011, 04:06:PM
And me!

With those gunshot wounds, one would assume that with wounds to a shoulder/arm he would be able to get donstairs easily enough, whether by himself or forced by the killer. But if there were two other shots in the bedroom, where did these ones hit? Which were the fatal wounds he recieved, to the head I assume?
Title: Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
Post by: Kaldin on February 03, 2011, 04:22:PM
And me!

With those gunshot wounds, one would assume that with wounds to a shoulder/arm he would be able to get donstairs easily enough, whether by himself or forced by the killer. But if there were two other shots in the bedroom, where did these ones hit? Which were the fatal wounds he recieved, to the head I assume?

It was said that the head wounds were fatal in combination, so I don't know if each one would have killed one.

If he was shot four times upstairs in the shoulder and face, he could have gone to the kitchen - he couldn't have phoned anyone though - he couldn't speak.

This alleged double marked bullet in the kitchen has really thrown a spanner in the works.