Jeremy Bamber Forum

JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Roch on July 09, 2017, 07:01:PM

Title: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 09, 2017, 07:01:PM
It is claimed that after Sheila received the first shot, she managed to get blood from the resulting wound upon her arm at several places.  These drops of blood from her wound somehow formed streams upon her arm. 

In the position that Sheila would have originally been in after having received the first gunshot wound -  how would she have had to move her arm, in order for the drops of blood to land at the positions shown in the crime scene images?  Has anybody tried to replicate this movement with their own arm / neck?


(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4390;image)

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18728;image)

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4392;image)

After the blood had dripped upon her arm (bearing in mind that this is supposed to have happened at all the places shown) - how did she keep her arm at an even level and avoid any arm rotation so that the blood drops nearly all travel in same direction on her lower arm / wrist? 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 09, 2017, 07:16:PM
I suppose the prosecution did not have to prove what position Jeremy and Sheila were allegedly in when the fatal shots were fired?

If the assumed she was sitting up , then he laid her down you would think the blood would be running down her arms , because the blood would not have arrived  on her arms after being laid flat ?


Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 09, 2017, 07:19:PM
It is claimed that after Sheila received the first shot, she managed to get blood from the resulting wound upon her arm at several places.  These drops of blood from her wound somehow formed streams upon her arm. 

In the position that Sheila would have originally been in after having received the first gunshot wound -  how would she have had to move her arm, in order for the drops of blood to land at the positions shown in the crime scene images?  Has anybody tried to replicate this movement with their own arm / neck?


(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4390;image)

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18728;image)

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4392;image)

After the blood had dripped upon her arm (bearing in mind that this is supposed to have happened at all the places shown) - how did she keep her arm at an even level and avoid any arm rotation so that the blood drops nearly all travel in same direction on her lower arm / wrist?

No, but I have tried to get my hand to stay on my lap in the position Sheila was found - once you rellax your arm, it falls to th floor.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 09, 2017, 07:34:PM
Well surely her arm would have relaxed whether or not Jeremy had placed it there?

So could that mean her hand was placed in her lap way after she was shot?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 09, 2017, 07:51:PM
Could they be trails from inside the arm where we are not seeing the original wounds?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 09, 2017, 08:23:PM
Liquid dropping down finds its own levels.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 09, 2017, 09:45:PM
Could they be trails from inside the arm where we are not seeing the original wounds?

Do you think that's what the dots and streams look like?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 09, 2017, 09:51:PM
Do you think that's what the dots and streams look like?

I can't work out if the blobs are the beginning or the end of the trail? But I can't work out how they are the beginning ?

It's all very odd . I remember Alias meentioning it several times.

In the prosecution scenario he shot her sitting up and then pulled her straight so how would her arm be so affected because she was supposed to be totally submissive at the time?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 09, 2017, 11:15:PM
I can't work out if the blobs are the beginning or the end of the trail? But I can't work out how they are the beginning ?

It's all very odd . I remember Alias meentioning it several times.

In the prosecution scenario he shot her sitting up and then pulled her straight so how would her arm be so affected because she was supposed to be totally submissive at the time?

People have argued she would have immediately fell back after the first shot.  Also that she didn't retain consciousness. If she didn't retain consciousness, how could she have positioned her arm underneath the neck and moved it around to receive various drips of blood?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on July 09, 2017, 11:52:PM
People have argued she would have immediately fell back after the first shot.  Also that she didn't retain consciousness. If she didn't retain consciousness, how could she have positioned her arm underneath the neck and moved it around to receive various drips of blood?
I thought Vanezis said the first shot was a flesh would and as it hadn't damaged vital organs she could have been conscious afterwards and even moved around for a period. I can't explain the drips nor the position of her left arm and await an explanation from members.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 10, 2017, 11:55:AM
I thought Vanezis said the first shot was a flesh would and as it hadn't damaged vital organs she could have been conscious afterwards and even moved around for a period. I can't explain the drips nor the position of her left arm and await an explanation from members.

My understanding is that on this forum, those who support the conviction have Sheila as receiving the non-fatal shot in a partially upright position, falling back and and then receiving the fatal second shot. In between, she has to move her arm in various positions under her first wound, in order to get the blood drops on her arm.     
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 10, 2017, 12:03:PM
My understanding is that on this forum, those who support the conviction have Sheila as receiving the non-fatal shot in a partially upright position, falling back and and then receiving the fatal second shot. In between, she has to move her arm in various positions under her first wound, in order to get the blood drops on her arm.   

There was no non-fatal shot, the first shot would have been fatal, just not immediately so.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 10, 2017, 12:07:PM
People have argued she would have immediately fell back after the first shot.  Also that she didn't retain consciousness. If she didn't retain consciousness, how could she have positioned her arm underneath the neck and moved it around to receive various drips of blood?

She couldn't but she didn't have to if someone else did it for her. Your argument backs up a staged scene.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 10, 2017, 12:20:PM
If it could be argued that Sheila and June died more or less simultaneously then I'd have said that the " droplets " on Sheila's arms were the result of June's injuries dropping/dripping onto Sheila before June succumbed.
I'm following the droplets of blood which were found around the area where Sheila was which had been found to belong to June------as well as those found on the carpet near a window.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 10, 2017, 12:28:PM
She couldn't but she didn't have to if someone else did it for her. Your argument backs up a staged scene.

So you think Jeremy moved her arm underneath her first wound?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 10, 2017, 12:31:PM
She couldn't but she didn't have to if someone else did it for her. Your argument backs up a staged scene.


So in the staged scene how did drops of blood in a line arrive on her arm in the first place ?

We have to think how that could happen before the movement comes into play?

Are the droplets the source or the end of the running blood?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 10, 2017, 12:38:PM
Was that blood on Sheila's arm tested,or proved that it was hers ?

Jeremy could have had a nose-bleed with the sheer exertion of moving bodies. :o
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 10, 2017, 12:46:PM
Was that blood on Sheila's arm tested,or proved that it was hers ?

Jeremy could have had a nose-bleed with the sheer exertion of moving bodies. :o


Hmm. Not UNbelievable. Worthy of consideration.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 10, 2017, 03:53:PM
Here we go.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 10, 2017, 05:27:PM
Here we go.

Yes it's very interesting what he suggests.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 10, 2017, 05:57:PM
Can we remember the position where it was later shown that a person of her height and with a gun that length could shoot themselves? THat is without the silencer ?

I do remember there were some photos somewhere ?

If she had put her hand up to her throats you would think the blood would run straight down her arm to her elbow.

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 10, 2017, 06:11:PM
Can we remember the position where it was later shown that a person of her height and with a gun that length could shoot themselves? THat is without the silencer ?

I do remember there were some photos somewhere ?

If she had put her hand up to her throats you would think the blood would run straight down her arm to her elbow.

Would that not depend on A) how much she bled in as opposed to out. B) how long before the second shot?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 10, 2017, 06:18:PM
Would that not depend on A) how much she bled in as opposed to out. B) how long before the second shot?


I am not saying it will show anything just interested in how close to the wounds her hands and arms would have been .




Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 10, 2017, 06:21:PM
Vanezis is expressing almost the opposite of my question. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 10, 2017, 06:23:PM
It was the second photo I was thinking of where the inside of her arm is pointing up
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 10, 2017, 06:31:PM
It was the second photo I was thinking of where the inside of her arm is pointing up

How would the rifle have ended up laying neatly across her if she'd employed the action in the second picture for the final shot. HOW after the first shot and the damage it did, would she have managed to take the second shot?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 10, 2017, 07:21:PM
How would the rifle have ended up laying neatly across her if she'd employed the action in the second picture for the final shot. HOW after the first shot and the damage it did, would she have managed to take the second shot?

No one has managed to say what position Jeremy got into either to shoot her at the angles that resulted or why she did not put her hands up to defend herself so it's all conjecture is it not?

I never said this is what happened I just was interested in where blood might have ended up .

Can you explain the blood trails and the change in directions ?


Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 10, 2017, 07:42:PM
No one has managed to say what position Jeremy got into either to shoot her at the angles that resulted or why she did not put her hands up to defend herself so it's all conjecture is it not?

I never said this is what happened I just was interested in where blood might have ended up .

Can you explain the blood trails and the change in directions ?

Perhaps she did and that's where the cuts on her hands came from (if they are indeed cuts).
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on July 10, 2017, 07:46:PM
Here we go.
What do you deduce from this Sherlock?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 10, 2017, 07:47:PM
Perhaps she did and that's where the cuts on her hands came from (if they are indeed cuts).


so what made the cuts in that scenario?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 10, 2017, 07:52:PM

so what made the cuts in that scenario?

There are also linear marks (which could be just smears) similar to those on Nevill - so, it would be the barrel of the rifle in this scenario.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 10, 2017, 08:03:PM
It was the second photo I was thinking of where the inside of her arm is pointing up





This is probably how Sheila chipped the nail and varnish off her toe.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on July 10, 2017, 08:08:PM




This is probably how Sheila chipped the nail and varnish off her toe.
But that was found in the kitchen wasn't it, not the master bedroom?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 10, 2017, 08:20:PM
But that was found in the kitchen wasn't it, not the master bedroom?





Well it would fit in with the scenario that she was seen in the kitchen. Those cops couldn't count could they ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 10, 2017, 08:24:PM




This is probably how Sheila chipped the nail and varnish off her toe.

I am not saying that is how she did it . It's just looking at blood flow possibilities .

There was the statement that she could have been conscious between shots possibly  so there is no definitive sequence of what may possibly had happened  .
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 10, 2017, 08:35:PM
I am not saying that is how she did it . It's just looking at blood flow possibilities .

There was the statement that she could have been conscious between shots possibly  so there is no definitive sequence of what may possibly had happened  .





I doubt very much that Sheila moved after the first shot at all,but someone else's blood could have dropped onto her.
Though saying that,June with all her injuries managed to walk to the window,then around the area where Sheila lay,as they were her droplets,so it wasn't impossible for June's blood to have also dropped onto Sheila. Large enough drops would land on Sheila's arm and naturally run down creating the blood pattern.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 10, 2017, 08:59:PM
Perhaps she did and that's where the cuts on her hands came from (if they are indeed cuts).

That is revealing. You are more amenable to accepting there are cuts on her hand, if the cause implicates Jeremy.  If the cause doesn't implicate Jeremy, then the marks remain smears only.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 10, 2017, 09:05:PM
That is revealing. You are more amenable to accepting there are cuts on her hand, if the cause implications Jeremy.  If the cause doesn't implicate Jeremy, then the marks remain smears only.

Probably because I am as certain that Jeremy is guilty as you are that he isn't. I don't see where you have given the same credence that you are asking me to show? I don't see where you have been amenable to the cuts (if indeed they) being caused by Jeremy. By the way - I haven't accepted that they are cuts.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 10, 2017, 09:15:PM
Pity there are no pictures of the rest of the trail  on the inside of her arm
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 10, 2017, 09:20:PM
What do you deduce from this Sherlock?

It shows that Vanezis suggests a scenario for the blood trails that is opposite to the scenario in my question.  My question is about how the dark spots of blood fell on Sheila's arm. According to Vanezis - the dark spots are where the blood flow ends.  Look at the photos closely and consider that.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 10, 2017, 09:32:PM
Probably because I am as certain that Jeremy is guilty as you are that he isn't. I don't see where you have given the same credence that you are asking me to show? I don't see where you have been amenable to the cuts (if indeed they) being caused by Jeremy. By the way - I haven't accepted that they are cuts.

Because I don't think it's credible to suggest that a rifle barrel or sound moderator caused the cuts on her hand.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 10, 2017, 09:33:PM
What does he mean by where the blood flow ends ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 10, 2017, 09:39:PM
Because I don't think it's credible to suggest that a rifle barrel or sound moderator caused the cuts on her hand.

I am not sure they are cuts but you don't know what caused them you're making assumption that go with your theory - same thing you're accusing me of.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 10, 2017, 09:42:PM
Probably because they are circular weapons and at least one wound is small and rectangular .
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 10, 2017, 09:43:PM
If you look at the photos you see the dark spots on Sheila's arm with what appears to be a trail of blood from them.
In your opinion is the dark spot where the old trail begins or ends?  Think that is what Roch is asking.

We can't see the complete trail which is a bit of a problem .
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 10, 2017, 10:05:PM
Probably because they are circular weapons and at least one wound is small and rectangular .

Jan did you think the marks on Sheila's hand look like scratch and gauge marks they did to me  and others but some posters don't see them we are divided.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 10, 2017, 10:11:PM
Jan did you think the marks on Sheila's hand look like scratch and gauge marks they did to me  and others but some posters don't see them we are divided.

Yes some of them I think do or someone could have gripped hard and made nail marks .


The blood drips on the arms seem the oddest though they sort of look like they happened at the same time but I can't think how they got there and then flowed in that direction .



Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 10, 2017, 10:26:PM
There looks to be bruising on her upper arm,but I'm not sure. I think it rests on whether there were other marks on her body such as cuts if she'd been half-dressed.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 11, 2017, 12:15:AM
Vanezis is expressing almost the opposite of my question.

I'm not sure what you are trying to find out.

Those streams of blood IMO are almost certainly caused by the 1st gunshot wound.

Vanezis has stated that the blood staining suggests she was sitting upwards while both shots were fired and she then fell backwards.

Prof Bernard Knight believes that due to the amount of blood down her arm/dress it was not a quick "Bang Bang" but some time gap between the shots.

According to a study of multiple gunshot suicide. The 1st wound would give Sheila 10-15 seconds before she passes out from blood loss.

So she could have sat up for several seconds before pushing the trigger again.

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 11, 2017, 06:51:AM
I'm not sure what you are trying to find out.

Those streams of blood IMO are almost certainly caused by the 1st gunshot wound.

Vanezis has stated that the blood staining suggests she was sitting upwards while both shots were fired and she then fell backwards.

Prof Bernard Knight believes that due to the amount of blood down her arm/dress it was not a quick "Bang Bang" but some time gap between the shots.

According to a study of multiple gunshot suicide. The 1st wound would give Sheila 10-15 seconds before she passes out from blood loss.

So she could have sat up for several seconds before pushing the trigger again.

See Post 39.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 11, 2017, 11:17:AM
There looks to be bruising on her upper arm,but I'm not sure. I think it rests on whether there were other marks on her body such as cuts if she'd been half-dressed.






Again,studying what appear to be " bruises ",looking more closely it looks like a partial " hand or fingers " impression. Can anyone else see this on Sheila's upper arm ? If it is, then the position of the print could indicate that Sheila herself had somehow used her own right hand palm facing upwards to enable to do this,which in turn would have had that arm slightly turned to the left allowing a blood flow to follow in that direction.
Because of the darker colour of the " blood spots ",venous as opposed to arterial,would tell me that it came from a jugular injury,so gained from a sitting position as Sheila would at first have sat,crouched,right arm across her chest with fingers on her upper left arm as blood fell from her wound onto her arm,as in a folded arms position.
It's damned hard to describe on here,but it would account for the blood patterns on her arm.

I just picture this sad figure,sitting in a crouched position,arms folded,exhausted, and dying from her wounds, hence the gathering of blood in the neck area because her head would have been bent forward,but without the rifle on her body ! 
Sheila would not have lain down on her own as she'd been leaning against the bedside cabinet !     
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 11, 2017, 12:23:PM
I can see what you are saying about the blood flow under her arm Lookout .

I find it hard to imagine either scenario really

Jeremy crouching holding the gun in both hands and getting at the right angle to make it look like suicide but without her fighting back or moving or him disturbing anything in that small cluttered room ?

Or how she held that long rifle to kill herself . OK its proven she could do it with her foot but would she know that ? could she have done it without using her foot without the silencer on?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 11, 2017, 01:00:PM
I can see what you are saying about the blood flow under her arm Lookout .

I find it hard to imagine either scenario really

Jeremy crouching holding the gun in both hands and getting at the right angle to make it look like suicide but without her fighting back or moving or him disturbing anything in that small cluttered room ?

Or how she held that long rifle to kill herself . OK its proven she could do it with her foot but would she know that ? could she have done it without using her foot without the silencer on?





Firstly,there was no doubt in my mind that there were struggles going on between the three adults,mum,dad and Sheila. All three had fingernail gouges on them,obviously by trying to retrieve the rifle from Sheila. IF Jeremy had been there too,he'd have had them,no mistaking that as he'd have been hard-pushed against the manic strength of his sister.

Sheila would have found a way of shooting herself,but certainly not with her toe on the trigger. The girl had a long reach anyway being 5.8 so her arms length would have been in keeping/proportion with her overall body size.

I believe she was in a sitting position when this was" accomplished",as the bullet went upwards. Her head then bent which would have stemmed the flow of blood,and the pressure would also have stopped due to vascular shock and that's why the blood had pooled in the crook of her neck. Because she was against the cabinet,she'd have maintained that sitting position until such times as she'd been placed where we see her.

Those darker spots on her arm,as I've said,would have dropped from the neck wound ( jugular ) while in the sitting position. It's the only way they'd have got there otherwise. If she'd been lying down when she shot herself,those spots wouldn't have been there.

Nobody but herself could have shot her in that position. With two shots,you can NEVER make it look like suicide------Jeremy would have known that as it's common sense,a child would realise it. The fact that the rifle was semi-automatic and comparatively new would make it sensitive to a second firing to those who weren't accustomed to using them and because the shots to her neck were pretty close together,it would make this possible.

No way do I believe that Jeremy had any part in this,nor did he know or even realise it could happen.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 11, 2017, 01:01:PM
There looks to be bruising on her upper arm,but I'm not sure. I think it rests on whether there were other marks on her body such as cuts if she'd been half-dressed.
I can see bruising higher up her arm as though the arm has been grabbed and pulled or scraped as well as a few gouge marks that have bled, I think my pics on this  'dyslexic' tablet are really clear, not much use otherwise! :)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 11, 2017, 01:04:PM
I can see bruising higher up her arm as though the arm has been grabbed and pulled or scraped as well as a few gouge marks that have bled, I think my pics on this 'dyslexic' tablet are really clear, not much use otherwise! :)





Thank goodness for that. I was hoping I wasn't seeing things :)) :)) Those pics tell a story on their own,they're brilliant thanks to Roch.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 11, 2017, 01:05:PM
I can see what you are saying about the blood flow under her arm Lookout .

I find it hard to imagine either scenario really

Jeremy crouching holding the gun in both hands and getting at the right angle to make it look like suicide but without her fighting back or moving or him disturbing anything in that small cluttered room ?

Or how she held that long rifle to kill herself . OK its proven she could do it with her foot but would she know that ? could she have done it without using her foot without the silencer on?
I find the blood under her arm hard to fathom. To me it has always looked as though she lay on her right side at some point, as if in the recovery position but I don't accept Mike's theory that the police shot her.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 11, 2017, 01:12:PM
Even on the pics,the running blood veers to the right. Then of course it would if she's been moved from the sitting position she was in her head would have" lolled" to one side during the handling of her to a flat position as we see in the pics.
However,to enable her to have been put into a lying position,Sheila must have been malleable enough to do so,without her having any RM. So a more or less immediate death before anyone had entered the farmhouse.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 11, 2017, 01:20:PM
I have a feeling that Scott Lomax,in his book,had stated that the rifle had been about 18" away from Sheila when it was found,which would be positioned between both Sheila and June.

Why so precise ? Why not 2' away ? 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 11, 2017, 01:35:PM
I have a feeling that Scott Lomax,in his book,had stated that the rifle had been about 18" away from Sheila when it was found,which would be positioned between both Sheila and June.

Why so precise ? Why not 2' away ?

I cant see that to be honest - no blood on the bed in that position ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 11, 2017, 01:58:PM
I cant see that to be honest - no blood on the bed in that position ?





On the floor.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 11, 2017, 02:22:PM

Oh ? I thought you meant they were on the bed with the rifle between them?


On the floor.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 11, 2017, 02:31:PM






Yes,I thought you were thinking on the bed,as until we see or know for sure, otherwise,it was on the floor.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 11, 2017, 03:01:PM




Thank goodness for that. I was hoping I wasn't seeing things :)) :)) Those pics tell a story on their own,they're brilliant thanks to Roch.

Hi Lookout- I didn't provide anything - the images are from the forum.  If anyone should be thanked for these particular images - it is probably Ewen Smith / GDS / Mike.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 11, 2017, 03:45:PM
Hi Lookout- I didn't provide anything - the images are from the forum.  If anyone should be thanked for these particular images - it is probably Ewen Smith / GDS / Mike.





I should have said thanks as a reminder after having already seen the pics a number of years back. One needs a refresher now and again in order to go over a few things, periodically.

Obviously first shown by Mike,as with all or most that are presented here by him.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 11, 2017, 03:54:PM
What does he mean by where the blood flow ends ?

Literally stops. 

Vanezis claimed that the ‘runs’ of blood on Sheila’s lower arm were from her neck wound.  He claimed that the darker spots, were in effect, where the runs came to an end, i.e. stopped flowing any further on her arm.  The darker spots are supposed to be caused by the blood having collected in one place, due to the run not flowing any further.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 11, 2017, 04:04:PM
Literally stops. 

Vanezis claimed that the ‘runs’ of blood on Sheila’s lower arm were from her neck wound.  He claimed that the darker spots, were in effect, where the runs came to an end, i.e. stopped flowing any further on her arm.  The darker spots are supposed to be caused by the blood having collected in one place, due to the run not flowing any further.





The blood spots are darker because they came from the jugular vein where the blood is darker than that from an artery.
Because Sheila's arm would have been raised ( across her chest ) the blood from her neck would naturally have dropped onto her arm and run down the sides. Sheila would have to have been sitting up for this to happen.
I don't get where he says " the runs came to an end ". Of course they would if her heart wasn't pumping sufficiently enough for it to carry on running. Vascular shock leading to unconsciousness would have put paid to that.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 11, 2017, 04:19:PM




The blood spots are darker because they came from the jugular vein where the blood is darker than that from an artery.
Because Sheila's arm would have been raised ( across her chest ) the blood from her neck would naturally have dropped onto her arm and run down the sides. Sheila would have to have been sitting up for this to happen.
I don't get where he says " the runs came to an end ". Of course they would if her heart wasn't pumping sufficiently enough for it to carry on running. Vascular shock leading to unconsciousness would have put paid to that.

Wow lookout your post is very impressive bet you were an excellent nurse.  Well done.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 11, 2017, 04:29:PM
Literally stops. 

Vanezis claimed that the ‘runs’ of blood on Sheila’s lower arm were from her neck wound.  He claimed that the darker spots, were in effect, where the runs came to an end, i.e. stopped flowing any further on her arm.  The darker spots are supposed to be caused by the blood having collected in one place, due to the run not flowing any further.
Imo, the blood could not stop running like that.  Sheila was a young woman her blood would be quite fluid. Not sure if  a side effect of Haldol is that it thinned the blood but either way it's highly unlikely Sheila's blood would be sticky enough to behave in that way. To me and because my pics on my tablet seem to be clearer than most, they're certainly clearer than on my laptop, the source of the blood is from the darker, thicker spots and those marks  appear to be cuts or tears made by sharp nails or something similar.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 11, 2017, 04:42:PM
Imo, the blood could not stop running like that.  Sheila was a young woman her blood would be quite fluid. Not sure if  a side effect of Haldol is that it thinned the blood but either way it's highly unlikely Sheila's blood would be sticky enough to behave in that way. To me and because my pics on my tablet seem to be clearer than most, they're certainly clearer than on my laptop, the source of the blood is from the darker, thicker spots and those marks  appear to be cuts or tears made by sharp nails or something similar.






Which would coincide with the " impressed " hand mark on her upper arm if the darker areas are indeed injuries. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 11, 2017, 04:49:PM





Which would coincide with the " impressed " hand mark on her upper arm if the darker areas are indeed injuries.
Just checked, while Haloperidol is not a blood thinner per se it seems you need to tell your doctor if you are prescribed it while you on blood thinners.  That surely points to the fact that it has some blood thinning properties which would support the fact Sheila's blood would be fluid and not thick or sticky enough to stop running and dry the way it was claimed.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 11, 2017, 04:51:PM
Imo, the blood could not stop running like that.  Sheila was a young woman her blood would be quite fluid. Not sure if  a side effect of Haldol is that it thinned the blood but either way it's highly unlikely Sheila's blood would be sticky enough to behave in that way. To me and because my pics on my tablet seem to be clearer than most, they're certainly clearer than on my laptop, the source of the blood is from the darker, thicker spots and those marks  appear to be cuts or tears made by sharp nails or something similar.

Maggie great post from you too :)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 11, 2017, 05:04:PM
Maggie great post from you too :)
Hi Susan, Sheila would be even more likely to bleed from small wounds if her blood was slightly thinner than someone her age not taking  Haloperidol. Neil and June are obviously older and many older people, especialy 30 years ago tended to have stickier blood which means they may not bleed from small wounds, as we see with Nevill.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 11, 2017, 05:23:PM




The blood spots are darker because they came from the jugular vein where the blood is darker than that from an artery.
Because Sheila's arm would have been raised ( across her chest ) the blood from her neck would naturally have dropped onto her arm and run down the sides. Sheila would have to have been sitting up for this to happen.
I don't get where he says " the runs came to an end ". Of course they would if her heart wasn't pumping sufficiently enough for it to carry on running. Vascular shock leading to unconsciousness would have put paid to that.

He claimed at trial that the darker spots were at the end of the runs of blood.  Not the beginning.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 11, 2017, 06:08:PM
He claimed at trial that the darker spots were at the end of the runs of blood.  Not the beginning.





I don't agree with him.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 11, 2017, 06:19:PM




I don't agree with him.

If anybody doesn't agree with him then two things happen.

Firstly, they place themselves in opposition to the pathologist's findings expressed at trial (obviously). 

Secondly, they are faced with solving the question at the beginning of this thread.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 11, 2017, 06:23:PM
If anybody doesn't agree with him then two things happen.

Firstly, they place themselves in opposition to the pathologist's findings expressed at trial (obviously). 

Secondly, they are faced with solving the question at the beginning of this thread.




Okay.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 11, 2017, 06:30:PM




I don't agree with him.
Nor me lookout.  I cannot agree because it makes no sense and I can see she has small wounds probably caused by something sharp like finger nails.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 11, 2017, 06:31:PM
Firstly,where was the pic taken ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 11, 2017, 06:45:PM
He claimed at trial that the darker spots were at the end of the runs of blood.  Not the beginning.

So does that mean we are not seeing the start of the blood trails as they are on the other side of the arm?

Btw could you look at my last question on my post on rifle in window thread ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 11, 2017, 07:04:PM
He claimed at trial that the darker spots were at the end of the runs of blood.  Not the beginning.

I agree with him.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 11, 2017, 07:15:PM
That they hadn't run any further because her life had ended ?
I still say that the dark spots came from the jugular vein,which is darker blood anyway than that from an artery.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 11, 2017, 07:17:PM
I agree with him.

His suggestion poses different questions that are also interesting and worth exploring.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 11, 2017, 07:18:PM
That they hadn't run any further because her life had ended ?
I still say that the dark spots came from the jugular vein,which is darker blood anyway than that from an artery.

No more blood pumping the trail have to end somewhere.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 11, 2017, 07:19:PM
That they hadn't run any further because her life had ended ?
I still say that the dark spots came from the jugular vein,which is darker blood anyway than that from an artery.

But then the only people you DO agree with are those who say Jeremy is innocent. Even that's probably the ONLY thing you agree with them about.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 11, 2017, 07:19:PM
It wasn't photographed as it had happened------on the carpet. No blood beneath to give any clues ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 11, 2017, 07:21:PM
It wasn't photographed as it had happened------on the carpet. No blood beneath to give any clues ?

Obviously not.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 11, 2017, 07:29:PM
I agree with him.

So if the photos show the end of the trails you are agreeing that the beginning is on the other side of the arm that we can not see?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 11, 2017, 07:36:PM
So if the photos show the end of the trails you are agreeing that the beginning is on the other side of the arm that we can not see?

I think the trails are from her hand. I think Bamber made the palm print on the bible from blood on her hand, placed the bible on her lap leaving the stain of bloodied finger marks on her nightdress, which ended in a straight line (because of the bible). I think it thought it looked too staged and he wouldn't have been able to stage the rifle. I think he changed his mind and put the bible on the floor - upturned.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 11, 2017, 07:41:PM
I think the trails are from her hand. I think Bamber made the palm print on the bible from blood on her hand, placed the bible on her lap leaving the stain of bloodied finger marks on her nightdress, which ended in a straight line (because of the bible). I think it thought it looked too staged and he wouldn't have been able to stage the rifle. I think he changed his mind and put the bible on the floor - upturned.

I was talking about the trails that go around her arms in several places . Are you talking about the same thing?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 11, 2017, 07:55:PM
I was talking about the trails that go around her arms in several places . Are you talking about the same thing?

Yes, running down from her hand, ending where the darkest spots are.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 11, 2017, 08:02:PM
How would it run from her hand/s if it had been said that they were clean ? How could it form that " pattern " if it ran from her hands anyway ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 11, 2017, 08:40:PM
How would it run from her hand/s if it had been said that they were clean ? How could it form that " pattern " if it ran from her hands anyway ?

It's just trails Lookout, not a replication of the Sistine Chapel ceiling.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 11, 2017, 08:46:PM
It's just trails Lookout, not a replication of the Sistine Chapel ceiling.

So her arm is up and one trail runs down and then round her arms in several trails ?

That is a bit of an assumption without seeing the other side of her arm ?

Perhaps the Sistine chapel is tattooed n the other side?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 11, 2017, 09:36:PM
I think the trails are from her hand. I think Bamber made the palm print on the bible from blood on her hand, placed the bible on her lap leaving the stain of bloodied finger marks on her nightdress, which ended in a straight line (because of the bible). I think it thought it looked too staged and he wouldn't have been able to stage the rifle. I think he changed his mind and put the bible on the floor - upturned.

That would mean her palm was bloodstained - according to prosecution, it was not.  Also doesn't explain why he placed the bible over a large distinctive bloodstain on the carpet. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 11, 2017, 09:39:PM
No more blood pumping the trail have to end somewhere.

Surely that would mean the trail would fade away? Here it has thickened in a specific area. Literally stopped in its tracks.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 11, 2017, 09:47:PM
It's just trails Lookout, not a replication of the Sistine Chapel ceiling.

But there are four lines on her wrist. How could that happen?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 11, 2017, 10:09:PM
But there are four lines on her wrist. How could that happen?

How could it not?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 11, 2017, 10:11:PM
Some of us did an experiment on the blood trail using red pint and got the same effect. The pictures are still on the forum (I think).
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 11, 2017, 10:15:PM
How could it not?

Well you're saying it came from her hand?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 11, 2017, 10:35:PM
 Only if Sheila's arm was across her chest ( in a sitting position ) head bent, which would have restricted the blood flow from her injuries. It may have come from her mouth,as it would drip out if her head had been bent over.

If you sit up,put your arm across your chest,head bent forward,and if your mouth contained blood it would eke out,particularly if Sheila was gasping and not able to expel it in the normal way.

When she'd been placed in the lying down position the overflow from the restricted neck position would have then pooled as her head and neck rested on the floor,as she hadn't been dead long enough for the wound to have been plugged or halted by LM. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 11, 2017, 11:26:PM
That would mean her palm was bloodstained - according to prosecution, it was not.  Also doesn't explain why he placed the bible over a large distinctive bloodstain on the carpet.

According to the prosecution, there were no cuts on her hand either _ can't answer why Jeremy would put the bible over the stain, perhaps to give them impression the stain was caused by the carpet blood - which is what the 2002 appeal argued (although that can't be true).

This is how I think the nightdress and the bible became stained.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 12, 2017, 01:22:AM
Well you're saying it came from her hand?

And?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 12, 2017, 02:03:AM
Blood is a non Newtonian fluid (does not follow Newton's law of viscosity)

Blood has adhesive properties and it does not go from fluid to dry. depending on the amount It quickly turns into a semi fluid gel that gets less and less fluid until it eventually becomes completely dry.

Blood can be fluid and remain still without gravity moving it.   
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 12, 2017, 02:12:AM
According to the prosecution, there were no cuts on her hand either _ can't answer why Jeremy would put the bible over the stain, perhaps to give them impression the stain was caused by the carpet blood - which is what the 2002 appeal argued (although that can't be true).

This is how I think the nightdress and the bible became stained.

There is no corresponding blood from the wrist or the forearm.

I have a clear photo where I can see most of the inside of Sheila's upper fingers. There is no blood  :-\
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 12, 2017, 02:55:AM
There is no corresponding blood from the wrist or the forearm.

I have a clear photo where I can see most of the inside of Sheila's upper fingers. There is no blood  :-\

Good for you, but aren't you also one of those people that ask others to post proof? I'm not saying it's not the case BUT, I'm sure you don't like blind faith either.

There is a lot being claimed at he moment and if it all points to an innocent Jeremy, why wouldn't you post it? I just don't get it!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 12, 2017, 03:29:AM
Good for you, but aren't you also one of those people that ask others to post proof? I'm not saying it's not the case BUT, I'm sure you don't like blind faith either.

There is a lot being claimed at he moment and if it all points to an innocent Jeremy, why wouldn't you post it? I just don't get it!

I have not been reading 90% of the forum lately. I've been signing in intermittently. You would have to ask who ever is claiming what.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 12, 2017, 07:03:AM
According to the prosecution, there were no cuts on her hand either _ can't answer why Jeremy would put the bible over the stain, perhaps to give them impression the stain was caused by the carpet blood - which is what the 2002 appeal argued (although that can't be true).

This is how I think the nightdress and the bible became stained.

I doubt that Bamber thought too much about where he put June's bible. As long as it was very near Sheila. To give the murder/suicide a religious slant.

The bible wasn't just near Sheila. It was touching her.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 12, 2017, 09:29:AM
Blood is a non Newtonian fluid (does not follow Newton's law of viscosity)

Blood has adhesive properties and it does not go from fluid to dry. depending on the amount It quickly turns into a semi fluid gel that gets less and less fluid until it eventually becomes completely dry.

Blood can be fluid and remain still without gravity moving it.

Is this your possible explanation for the darker spots? 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Harry on July 12, 2017, 09:52:AM
I think the trails are from her hand. I think Bamber made the palm print on the bible from blood on her hand, placed the bible on her lap leaving the stain of bloodied finger marks on her nightdress, which ended in a straight line (because of the bible). I think it thought it looked too staged and he wouldn't have been able to stage the rifle. I think he changed his mind and put the bible on the floor - upturned.

I am not sure that your attempt to form a "Jeremy did it" scenario out of your previous position on the bible question really works.  People can read your main post on the subject and make up their own minds. You have given your reasons for thinking it would have been impossible for Jeremy to have placed the bible on the floor and that it must have somebody other than Jeremy, namely the police.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4616.msg191520.html#msg191520

From your Post number 271:

This is a FACT and not a scenario or a what if or even a maybe. It is also something that the 2002 appeal got completely WRONG when they stated

"The largest area of blood seems to
have got onto the Bible when it came into contact with a pool of blood
beside the body. As already observed the Bible must have been shut
whilst the blood was wet. It does not seem very likely that it was still
wet hours after the event when the police might have handled it. If this
is so, it was shut by someone and then reopened to lie beside the body
after Sheila Caffell had been shot"


The stain COULD NOT have been from the carpet because it is on the wrong page of the open bible!! It is obviously a hand print.

But think about this ..... The COA state categorically that the blood must have been 'wet' when the bible was closed and opened later by the 'killer' before being placed on the floor over the stain next to Sheila. So, IF it was placed there by Jeremy just after shooting Sheila the pool of blood would have to be wet at the time it was placed there  - so why is there no stain on the page that would have been face down on top of the blood? The stain MUST have been dry when the bible was placed there and as such could not have been placed there by Jeremy Bamber. The COA were WRONG and as such, this point should still be valid in future submissions!!

It also begs the question of who placed the bible on top of the blood stain (and why) - because it wasn't Jeremy and it wasn't Jeremy because it was placed there when the stain was dry. It proves that the scene was staged, but more importantly, that it was staged by someone OTHER  than Jeremy Bamber!!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 12, 2017, 10:24:AM
Blood is a non Newtonian fluid (does not follow Newton's law of viscosity)

Blood has adhesive properties and it does not go from fluid to dry. depending on the amount It quickly turns into a semi fluid gel that gets less and less fluid until it eventually becomes completely dry.

Blood can be fluid and remain still without gravity moving it.
The behaviour of blood depends on it's velocity, unsticky, healthy blood or blood thinned by anti coagulants will run freely and copiously and have a lower clotting rate while blood from an older person, particularly if they have a high clotting rate will be thicker and stickier, more likely to congeal rather than flow.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 12, 2017, 10:25:AM
Who placed the bible on Sheila's arm & on top of blood,  if the crime scene was staged but it wasn't Bamber ?

Don't tell me it was bungling EP again.  After seeing two bodies in the kitchen, knocking over everything upon entrance, not noticing Sheila go upstairs before shooting her.  Then moving her off the bed,  pulling her legs, putting a rifle across her & a bible on her.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 12, 2017, 03:02:PM
I am not sure that your attempt to form a "Jeremy did it" scenario out of your previous position on the bible question really works.  People can read your main post on the subject and make up their own minds. You have given your reasons for thinking it would have been impossible for Jeremy to have placed the bible on the floor and that it must have somebody other than Jeremy, namely the police.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4616.msg191520.html#msg191520

From your Post number 271:

This is a FACT and not a scenario or a what if or even a maybe. It is also something that the 2002 appeal got completely WRONG when they stated

"The largest area of blood seems to
have got onto the Bible when it came into contact with a pool of blood
beside the body. As already observed the Bible must have been shut
whilst the blood was wet. It does not seem very likely that it was still
wet hours after the event when the police might have handled it. If this
is so, it was shut by someone and then reopened to lie beside the body
after Sheila Caffell had been shot"


The stain COULD NOT have been from the carpet because it is on the wrong page of the open bible!! It is obviously a hand print.

But think about this ..... The COA state categorically that the blood must have been 'wet' when the bible was closed and opened later by the 'killer' before being placed on the floor over the stain next to Sheila. So, IF it was placed there by Jeremy just after shooting Sheila the pool of blood would have to be wet at the time it was placed there  - so why is there no stain on the page that would have been face down on top of the blood? The stain MUST have been dry when the bible was placed there and as such could not have been placed there by Jeremy Bamber. The COA were WRONG and as such, this point should still be valid in future submissions!!

It also begs the question of who placed the bible on top of the blood stain (and why) - because it wasn't Jeremy and it wasn't Jeremy because it was placed there when the stain was dry. It proves that the scene was staged, but more importantly, that it was staged by someone OTHER  than Jeremy Bamber!!


Oh yes I can, because you can't actually tell if the bible is on top of the blood or not. This was the COA's suggestion, not mine - I was pointing out they THEY were incorrect about the stain coming from the carpet.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 12, 2017, 09:09:PM
Who placed the bible on Sheila's arm & on top of blood,  if the crime scene was staged but it wasn't Bamber ?

Don't tell me it was bungling EP again.  After seeing two bodies in the kitchen, knocking over everything upon entrance, not noticing Sheila go upstairs before shooting her.  Then moving her off the bed,  pulling her legs, putting a rifle across her & a bible on her.

? But they did report two bodies in the kitchen? They did admit that they probably knocked over chairs etc when they went in? They did call out to sheila when they went in? They did move her hand at least during the photos? Early officers said they did not see the rifle on the body and that the bible was in a different position , specifically at waist height away from the body?

You see all you have said has come from EP , not posters ? So how on earth is the truth supposed to be found? You are blaming the wrong people in your sarcastic posts .
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 18, 2017, 10:54:PM
You aren't in the least bit interested in anything Roch had to say.  You denied point blank that Sheila had scratches and cuts on her hand which could be seen on the photo put up by Bill or that the marks on her arm from photos in the archives just maybe have been nail marks which had bled. Why should anyone bother to say anymore about it if people are just going to ridicule it? 
I thought the debate was about the truth not about scoring points.

Yes.  I cannot imagine Roch would be so gullible as to make such claims unless he was absolutely certain in his own mind that what he had seen was valid and worth supporting.  He's not a fool.
Anyone can accept there may be something in it but argue that even if they can see the marks there may be other reasons why Sheila was marked other than her being guilty of the killings, that is fair enough as we are all free to have our own opinions but I believe the claims still deserved serious consideration.

Maggie - just wanted to say thanks for your support and recognition of the wounds regarding the right hand of Sheila. 

I know you worked this out for your self already - but for the benefit of anybody interested..  If you look properly at the images on the forum of her right arm, it becomes obvious that some of the darker spots on her arm just dont look right - within the context of the claim that they represent an accumulation of blood at the end of 'runs' from her neck wound.  Some of them stop completely dead in their tracks - as if they were phyisically impeded from travelling further - ie. by obstructions - yet there are no such obstructions present.  The reason for this seeming anomally, is that the dark spots are actually the source (or in some cases very cose to the source) of the blood runs.  They have nothing to do with the neck wound.  Her right arm was attacked in a desperate life or death struggle. 

Sheila's right arm would have been extremely raw - though I get the sense that she 'did not feel it'.  It would most certainly have been felt the following day - had she survived in a conscious state and without pain relief.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 19, 2017, 12:03:AM
Some of them stop completely dead in their tracks - as if they were phyisically impeded from travelling further - ie. by obstructions - yet there are no such obstructions present.

That's what blood can do. Its a non-newtonian fluid.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 19, 2017, 12:39:AM
That's what blood can do. Its a non-newtonian fluid.

Don't really like agreeing with you but in this instance .....
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 19, 2017, 06:22:AM
Maggie - just wanted to say thanks for your support and recognition of the wounds regarding the right hand of Sheila. 

I know you worked this out for your self already - but for the benefit of anybody interested..  If you look properly at the images on the forum of her right arm, it becomes obvious that some of the darker spots on her arm just dont look right - within the context of the claim that they represent an accumulation of blood at the end of 'runs' from her neck wound.  Some of them stop completely dead in their tracks - as if they were phyisically impeded from travelling further - ie. by obstructions - yet there are no such obstructions present.  The reason for this seeming anomally, is that the dark spots are actually the source (or in some cases very cose to the source) of the blood runs.  They have nothing to do with the neck wound.  Her right arm was attacked in a desperate life or death struggle. 

Sheila's right arm would have been extremely raw - though I get the sense that she 'did not feel it'.  It would most certainly have been felt the following day - had she survived in a conscious state and without pain relief.

Hopefully you will answer my questions soon about the rifle and whether the evidence you saw in March 2017 is with Bamber's legal team. Something me, Susan & the rest of the forum would be interested to know.

I did ask these questions several times & created a thread called 'Roch's suggestion yesterday that Bamber should have used a different weapon '. So not sure why Maggie said I'm not interested in what you have to say. In the same post I was attacked for having an opinion thst Sheila's hand had smudged blood rather than scratches. After one of Bill's brief & rare forum visits.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 19, 2017, 07:58:AM
That's what blood can do. Its a non-newtonian fluid.

In the image you have shown, the runs appear to be of equal viscosity along their length. They are not essentially fainter trails that end in a darker accumulation, like a 'spot'.  The man's back also has considerably larger breadth and surface area for the blood to travel - in comparison to Sheila's arm. We also don't know the nature the wound which caused those runs.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 19, 2017, 04:50:PM
In the image you have shown, the runs appear to be of equal viscosity along their length. They are not essentially fainter trails that end in a darker accumulation, like a 'spot'.  The man's back also has considerably larger breadth and surface area for the blood to travel - in comparison to Sheila's arm. We also don't know the nature the wound which caused those runs.

It is blood from the neck wound. Sheila had to put her arm out in order to push the trigger and that's how the blood got there.

Incase you missed it. I posted CCTV footage the other day of a man committing suicide with a rifle. He lands in the same position as Sheila with the gun in same position also. For some daft reason it was removed as 'inappropriate' despite the forum having a library full of even more gory and graphic content.  :-\
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 19, 2017, 05:13:PM
It is blood from the neck wound. Sheila had to put her arm out in order to push the trigger and that's how the blood got there.

Incase you missed it. I posted CCTV footage the other day of a man committing suicide with a rifle. He lands in the same position as Sheila with the gun in same position also. For some daft reason it was removed as 'inappropriate' despite the forum having a library full of even more gory and graphic content.  :-\

So are you saying she was in a sitting position and leant forward to pull the trigger?

That makes sense and links up with a post alias made ages ago about the same pattern appearing when someone had a nose bleed onto their arm .
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 19, 2017, 05:50:PM
It is blood from the neck wound. Sheila had to put her arm out in order to push the trigger and that's how the blood got there.

Incase you missed it. I posted CCTV footage the other day of a man committing suicide with a rifle. He lands in the same position as Sheila with the gun in same position also. For some daft reason it was removed as 'inappropriate' despite the forum having a library full of even more gory and graphic content.  :-\
Sorry you believe it was 'daft' to remove a CCTV video of a young man shooting himself to death but that is just a matter of judgement.

It is true it showed the rifle falling onto his body in a similar position to the rifle on Sheila's body.

I don't think anyone would object if you put up a link to the video as long as you included a warning.


I do not agree with you that the blood trails in the photo you posted up compare with those on Sheila's arm.  I used to believe this was so, in fact I supported Alias and Caroline in a discussion a few years ago however I am now certain that the blood trails on Sheila's arm are from cuts to the skin and nothing to do with her neck wound. 
 
I do agree Sheila may have instinctively put her hand to her neck after the first shot which would account for blood on her hand as mentioned by Vanezis in his first handwritten statement and maybe the bloodied finger marks on her nightie.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 19, 2017, 09:19:PM
It is blood from the neck wound. Sheila had to put her arm out in order to push the trigger and that's how the blood got there.

Firstly, how did the above action lead to the formation of numerous runs on her arm?  Secondly, the circumferance of her arm is certainly not significant in size - so why did the runs not continue until they dripped from her arm?   

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4390;image)

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18728;image)

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4392;image)

Thirdly, how did the runs manage to travel underneath her arm and round to the other side (some of the lower runs must have began on the underside of her arm - yet they terminate almost on the top of her arm?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on July 19, 2017, 09:55:PM
I might not dispute with you that Sheila pulled the trigger, but with her brother's force guiding her.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 19, 2017, 10:08:PM
Firstly, how did the above action lead to the formation of numerous runs on her arm?  Secondly, the circumferance of her arm is certainly not significant in size - so why did the runs not continue until they dripped from her arm?   

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4390;image)

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18728;image)

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4392;image)

Thirdly, how did the runs manage to travel underneath her arm and round to the other side (some of the lower runs must have began on the underside of her arm - yet they terminate almost on the top of her arm?
Never seen blood run upwards before. Imo the blood obviously runs away from the source which is the dark spot or wound.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 19, 2017, 10:29:PM
I might not dispute with you that Sheila pulled the trigger, but with her brother's force guiding her.

Are you not disputing with David or with me?  I assume with him - as he is a staunch advocate of both shots being suicide related.

It's difficult to mentally place Jeremy in to a scenario, where he physically coerces a Sheila with fighting and scuffling wounds upon her person.

If we take the line of David and others as an alternative - then presumably Jeremy would have also had runs of blood upon his person?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 19, 2017, 10:32:PM
Never seen blood run upwards before.

Maybe it's further defiance of Newton's laws  ;)

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on July 19, 2017, 10:41:PM
Are you not disputing with David or with me?  I assume with him - as he is a staunch advocate of both shots being suicide related.

It's difficult to mentally place Jeremy in to a scenario, where he physically coerces a Sheila with fighting and scuffling wounds upon her person.

If we take the line of David and others as an alternative - then presumably Jeremy would have also had runs of blood upon his person?
She was an exhausted, disoriented woman who had admittedly progressed from knowing that something was wrong with her (when she first ventured into suggesting professional help for herself by asking Colin to make an appointment with a psychiatrist) to having episodes which she couldn't control and didn't understand but which were not physically directed against other people, only a notion that others may have been responsible for the way she had ended up.

Jeremy might well have got blood on his person, some of which he washed off in the upstairs bathroom at White House Farm, where Ann Eaton found the shower head out of place; the other specks of blood had seeped into his jumper, which was discovered in the wardrobe at Bourtree Cottage a month after the killings, but which were too badly degraded for forensic scientist Dr. Hayward to analyse.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 19, 2017, 11:34:PM
She was an exhausted, disoriented woman who had admittedly progressed from knowing that something was wrong with her (when she first ventured into suggesting professional help for herself by asking Colin to make an appointment with a psychiatrist) to having episodes which she couldn't control and didn't understand but which were not physically directed against other people, only a notion that others may have been responsible for the way she had ended up.

Jeremy might well have got blood on his person, some of which he washed off in the upstairs bathroom at White House Farm, where Ann Eaton found the shower head out of place; the other specks of blood had seeped into his jumper, which was discovered in the wardrobe at Bourtree Cottage a month after the killings, but which were too badly degraded for forensic scientist Dr. Hayward to analyse.
I cannot really come to terms with a Sheila who was somehow influenced to kill her family.  How could th a t happen?  She either was capable of murdering or not. She was sick, that is true and she had exhibited real strength and survival against her horrible illness and the horrible drugs she had to take so she was not a pushover who could be bullied against her will.  Whatever happened I believe she deserves respect for her courage in trying to overcome her illness.

If Sheila killed it could have been because she had suffered too much, had just had enough and she snapped OR her medication was not right for her, we are all individuals who react differently to drugs, so it is quite possible that her withdrawn behaviour was a precursor to a psychotic episode where she fought and killed what she saw as her enemies, attackers and tormentors.  OR Jeremy Bamber killed them all and emerged without a scratch.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 20, 2017, 08:00:AM
I cannot really come to terms with a Sheila who was somehow influenced to kill her family.  How could th a t happen?  She either was capable of murdering or not. She was sick, that is true and she had exhibited real strength and survival against her horrible illness and the horrible drugs she had to take so she was not a pushover who could be bullied against her will.  Whatever happened I believe she deserves respect for her courage in trying to overcome her illness.

If Sheila killed it could have been because she had suffered too much, had just had enough and she snapped OR her medication was not right for her, we are all individuals who react differently to drugs, so it is quite possible that her withdrawn behaviour was a precursor to a psychotic episode where she fought and killed what she saw as her enemies, attackers and tormentors.  OR Jeremy Bamber killed them all and emerged without a scratch.

But we don't know that he "emerged without a scratch", do we? I can't believe, as there was always going to be the length of the rifle between him and them, there'd have been many, especially if he'd worn protective clothes -I'm NOT talking wet suits- and I don't believe there'd have been any he couldn't have either hidden until they'd got to healing point OR passed off as something which had happened at work. He had the time to deal with any scratch which MAY have occurred.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 20, 2017, 08:48:AM
But we don't know that he "emerged without a scratch", do we? I can't believe, as there was always going to be the length of the rifle between him and them, there'd have been many, especially if he'd worn protective clothes -I'm NOT talking wet suits- and I don't believe there'd have been any he couldn't have either hidden until they'd got to healing point OR passed off as something which had happened at work. He had the time to deal with any scratch which MAY have occurred.
I take your point Jane however he can't have had any wounds similar to Sheila on his hands and lower arms, they would have been impossible to hide. I am debating from a mind set of belief that the 'blood smears' on Sheila's arm and hand are in fact scratches, scrapes, cuts.  From that point of view it is difficult to believe that anyone could cause such injuries to another without being equally marked by a young woman with long sharp nails fighting for her life   The argument he wore gloves cannot work if he was able to inflict such injuries.
I'm not interested in being in guilty or innocent camp however I am sure those marks on Sheila aren't just blood smears from her neck.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 20, 2017, 09:29:AM
I take your point Jane however he can't have had any wounds similar to Sheila on his hands and lower arms, they would have been impossible to hide. I am debating from a mind set of belief that the 'blood smears' on Sheila's arm and hand are in fact scratches, scrapes, cuts.  From that point of view it is difficult to believe that anyone could cause such injuries to another without being equally marked by a young woman with long sharp nails fighting for her life   The argument he wore gloves cannot work if he was able to inflict such injuries.
I'm not interested in being in guilty or innocent camp however I am sure those marks on Sheila aren't just blood smears from her neck.

The pathologist said Sheila didn't have any injurires.

The 40 pictures show running blood & blood smudges on Sheila. Not injuries.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 20, 2017, 09:35:AM
The pathologist said Sheila didn't have any injurires.

The 40 pictures show running blood & blood smudges on Sheila. Not injuries.
But as I have said before, my pics must be clearer than yours Adam
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 20, 2017, 10:30:AM
Never seen blood run upwards before. Imo the blood obviously runs away from the source which is the dark spot or wound.

But it would be running upward if those dark spots are injuries (which I don't believe they are).
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 20, 2017, 10:39:AM
But as I have said before, my pics must be clearer than yours Adam

I respect that you believe they are injuries however, why didn't Vanezis refer to them in his original notes? His notes were written before any conspiracy grew legs. He mentioned the old cut on her abdomen - why would he mention that and not the 'lacerations' on her arm?

She had blood on her palm which made the print on the bible the trails on her arm lead from her palm to form the trails and the dark spots are just where the blood trail came to an end the the blood thickened and dried.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 20, 2017, 12:56:PM
I respect that you believe they are injuries however, why didn't Vanezis refer to them in his original notes? His notes were written before any conspiracy grew legs. He mentioned the old cut on her abdomen - why would he mention that and not the 'lacerations' on her arm?

She had blood on her palm which made the print on the bible the trails on her arm lead from her palm to form the trails and the dark spots are just where the blood trail came to an end the the blood thickened and dried.
I don't have an  explanation, or inside information. Roch has given at least some of his explanation no doubt based on more info and discussions.
One of the reasons I changed from innocent to guilty was the difficulty in believing why there was a cover up and even if there was it seemed impossible to hold it together for 30 years.. Another was the repetitive, unproven and easily dismissed arguments for innocence. For all that I am in no doubt that Sheila has marks on her hand and arm which indicate that she was in a struggle with someone with sharp nails long enough to scratch and pierce the skin on her right arm.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 20, 2017, 01:26:PM
But it would be running upward if those dark spots are injuries (which I don't believe they are).

What makes you say that?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 20, 2017, 01:42:PM
She was an exhausted, disoriented woman who had admittedly progressed from knowing that something was wrong with her (when she first ventured into suggesting professional help for herself by asking Colin to make an appointment with a psychiatrist) to having episodes which she couldn't control and didn't understand but which were not physically directed against other people, only a notion that others may have been responsible for the way she had ended up.

Jeremy might well have got blood on his person, some of which he washed off in the upstairs bathroom at White House Farm, where Ann Eaton found the shower head out of place; the other specks of blood had seeped into his jumper, which was discovered in the wardrobe at Bourtree Cottage a month after the killings, but which were too badly degraded for forensic scientist Dr. Hayward to analyse.

so although the police were at his house with him almost immediately you think he had washed his clothes ?  and not got rid of them on his way back to the house ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 20, 2017, 01:47:PM
I don't have an  explanation, or inside information. Roch has given at least some of his explanation no doubt based on more info and discussions.
One of the reasons I changed from innocent to guilty was the difficulty in believing why there was a cover up and even if there was it seemed impossible to hold it together for 30 years.. Another was the repetitive, unproven and easily dismissed arguments for innocence. For all that I am in no doubt that Sheila has marks on her hand and arm which indicate that she was in a struggle with someone with sharp nails long enough to scratch and pierce the skin on her right arm.

Maggie I was adamant Jeremy was innocent as so much was said about his behaviour which I agree was dreadful after the funerals but this did not make him guilty and I was not offered one piece of concrete evidence that he was guilty.  I did at one stage think maybe he was guilty but I never felt really comfortable about it as I saw no real evidence he was so I was so to speak in no mans land  until I saw the pic of Sheila's arm and hands and saw scratches and gauge marks I had at last seen some concrete evidence Sheila was involved in a struggle with somebody with sharp nails.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 20, 2017, 02:09:PM
so although the police were at his house with him almost immediately you think he had washed his clothes ?  and not got rid of them on his way back to the house ?

How does "almost immediately" correspond with the possibility of him getting back to the house after midnight and waiting until nearly 3.30 before calling the police? There was time to do a weeks worth of washing in that time. The police didn't get to his house until breakfast time. IF they'd noticed washing in the machine -and given that it was a murder enquiry in which this witness was seen as a victim rather than a suspect, it was extremely unlikely- it could easily have been explained away as yesterdays farm clothes.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 20, 2017, 02:44:PM
Sorry you believe it was 'daft' to remove a CCTV video of a young man shooting himself to death but that is just a matter of judgement.

It is true it showed the rifle falling onto his body in a similar position to the rifle on Sheila's body.

I don't think anyone would object if you put up a link to the video as long as you included a warning.


Ok fair enough. But since this entire forum's focus comes down to studying either a suicide or a staged suicide with a rifle I think its not only appropriate but also important.

The link is below. (NSFL)

https://gfycat.com/GloriousHeavenlyBuck (https://gfycat.com/GloriousHeavenlyBuck)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 20, 2017, 07:15:PM
What makes you say that?

If Sheila was standing when she was injured, how could the blood go around her wrist and not straight down? I can't picture any scenario in my mind that would the the blood gong around her arm down to her wrists but if blood was on her palm, it would follow that path - I know because I tried it some time ago (not with blood I might add)  and got the same effect.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 20, 2017, 09:46:PM
Ok fair enough. But since this entire forum's focus comes down to studying either a suicide or a staged suicide with a rifle I think its not only appropriate but also important.

The link is below. (NSFL)

https://gfycat.com/GloriousHeavenlyBuck (https://gfycat.com/GloriousHeavenlyBuck)

Yes I can see how that is relevant.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 20, 2017, 10:01:PM
Yes I can see how that is relevant.

Its remarkable. If you look at how he falls, it could explain how Sheila got a large amount of blood running down her right side and armpit.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 20, 2017, 10:29:PM
If Sheila was standing when she was injured, how could the blood go around her wrist and not straight down? I can't picture any scenario in my mind that would the the blood gong around her arm down to her wrists but if blood was on her palm, it would follow that path - I know because I tried it some time ago (not with blood I might add)  and got the same effect.

I think it would be the angle and tilt of her arm that would be the deciding factor in the direction of the runs.  There are wounds upon her right arm, hand and trigger finger. 

Might she have gripped the weapon defensively - and sustained the wounds as a result of attempts to prise it from her grip?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 20, 2017, 10:37:PM
Its remarkable. If you look at how he falls, it could explain how Sheila got a large amount of blood running down her right side and armpit.

Perhaps it is remarkable and relevant.  However the shot in question exits via top of his skull  - could it have been a higher calibre weapon?  If so, might that equate with a more pronounced convulsive reaction?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 20, 2017, 11:07:PM
I respect that you believe they are injuries however, why didn't Vanezis refer to them in his original notes? His notes were written before any conspiracy grew legs. He mentioned the old cut on her abdomen - why would he mention that and not the 'lacerations' on her arm?

She had blood on her palm which made the print on the bible the trails on her arm lead from her palm to form the trails and the dark spots are just where the blood trail came to an end the the blood thickened and dried.

How do we know all of his notes survived? 

You were right when you originally posted that 'lacerations' was an exaggerated term for these wounds.

If /when you see clearer images - you will see that the trails are fainter / less viscous than the spots.   
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 20, 2017, 11:48:PM

Jeremy might well have got blood on his person, some of which he washed off in the upstairs bathroom at White House Farm, where Ann Eaton found the shower head out of place

Her detection skills knew no bounds.  God forbid Ann Eaton find something amiss... she reminds me of Jack Black and his dog Silver (Viz).


the other specks of blood had seeped into his jumper, which was discovered in the wardrobe at Bourtree Cottage a month after the killings, but which were too badly degraded for forensic scientist Dr. Hayward to analyse.

Placing Jeremy in to a guilty scenario that now includes Sheila's mauled arm, is no longer plain sailing.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 21, 2017, 12:24:AM
How do we know all of his notes survived? 

You were right when you originally posted that 'lacerations' was an exaggerated term for these wounds.

If /when you see clearer images - you will see that the trails are fainter / less viscous than the spots.

I know  ;)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 21, 2017, 12:39:AM
Perhaps it is remarkable and relevant.  However the shot in question exits via top of his skull  - could it have been a higher calibre weapon?  If so, might that equate with a more pronounced convulsive reaction?

If we put Sheila into the same stance as the poor sod in the video, you can see how the blood could get on her forearm.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 21, 2017, 08:32:AM
I know  ;)
I think I may have used the term 'lacerations' by mistake.  Too much medical jargon in my head, it was the wrong word to use at that time but wasn't intended to mislead. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 21, 2017, 08:41:AM
How do we know all of his notes survived? 

You were right when you originally posted that 'lacerations' was an exaggerated term for these wounds.

If /when you see clearer images - you will see that the trails are fainter / less viscous than the spots.

I know the notes on Sheila survived, they're on the forum and cuts to the arm aren't mentioned.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 21, 2017, 09:28:AM
I know the notes on Sheila survived, they're on the forum and cuts to the arm aren't mentioned.

Here are his notes on Sheila's upper limbs, why would he mention an OLD scar on her left hand but leave out new injuries to her right hand and arm? These notes were written during the autopsy - it doesn't make any sense for him to leave out such information. My conclusion is that the CT have jumped the gun and just not thought things through. Venezis had no reason to lie, certainly NOT at that point (in you believe in the conspiracy).
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 21, 2017, 12:41:PM
Ok fair enough. But since this entire forum's focus comes down to studying either a suicide or a staged suicide with a rifle I think its not only appropriate but also important.

The link is below. (NSFL)

https://gfycat.com/GloriousHeavenlyBuck (https://gfycat.com/GloriousHeavenlyBuck)

A question

The shots were obviously close to  the throat , but so you know if there would still have been a blood splatter ?

And if so surely that would indicate exactly the position she was in when shot?

So for example if she was sat with her head against the bedside cabinet - or shot in that position - you would think there would be blood on the cabinet either side to where her head had been?

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 21, 2017, 01:18:PM
A question

The shots were obviously close to  the throat , but so you know if there would still have been a blood splatter ?

And if so surely that would indicate exactly the position she was in when shot?

So for example if she was sat with her head against the bedside cabinet - or shot in that position - you would think there would be blood on the cabinet either side to where her head had been?

That would only apply if the bullet created an exit wound at the top of the head
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 21, 2017, 01:31:PM
I done an experiment with an acrylic based oil.

Conclusion - It runs for a second or two then stops. The blob at the end is thicker than the trail.

lol
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 21, 2017, 01:45:PM
I done an experiment with an acrylic based oil.

Conclusion - It runs for a second or two then stops. The blob at the end is thicker than the trail.

lol
Have you taken into account that everyone's blood is different?. A person on anti coagulant medication could have very thin blood which runs like water. A person who is older may have a higher clotting rate and be in danger of a stroke they would have thick sticky blood which barely runs but clots quickly. There are many clotting rates in between. Sheila was young and also on Haldon which thins the blood therefore her blood would have a low clotting rate and much less likely to clot in that way. it would be far more likely to just trail off as the source ie the wound stopped bleeding.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 21, 2017, 01:58:PM
Have you taken into account that everyone's blood is different?. A person on anti coagulant medication could have very thin blood which runs like water. A person who is older may have a higher clotting rate and be in danger of a stroke they would have thick sticky blood which barely runs but clots quickly. There are many clotting rates in between. Sheila was young and also on Haldon which thins the blood therefore her blood would have a low clotting rate and much less likely to clot in that way. it would be far more likely to just trail off as the source ie the wound stopped bleeding.

Yes. This oil is very thin. But I think the hairs on my arm took a toll on the streams momentum  ;D
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 21, 2017, 02:26:PM
Ok fair enough. But since this entire forum's focus comes down to studying either a suicide or a staged suicide with a rifle I think its not only appropriate but also important.

The link is below. (NSFL)

https://gfycat.com/GloriousHeavenlyBuck (https://gfycat.com/GloriousHeavenlyBuck)

Is this how you are suggesting Sheila shot herself with the silencer on ?

The man in the video looks about 6 feet. Not sure if the prosecution was wrong in saying Sheila couldn't reach the trigger with the silencer attached. 

Don't know why she would put the silencer away after the first shot. Which was a long journey downstairs. Would have been easier to take it off beforehand.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 21, 2017, 03:19:PM
Is this how you are suggesting Sheila shot herself with the silencer on ?

The man in the video looks about 6 feet. Not sure if the prosecution was wrong in saying Sheila couldn't reach the trigger with the silencer attached. 

Don't know why she would put the silencer away after the first shot. Which was a long journey downstairs. Would have been easier to take it off beforehand.

 ::)

That's not the modern consensus.

https://streamable.com/f1vb6 (https://streamable.com/f1vb6)

Like you say, experts cant be wrong!  ;)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on July 21, 2017, 06:48:PM
I haven't watched the video, but it's possible that Jeremy shot his sister as she was about to sit down by the cabinet, so the angle as depicted in #148 would have been similar.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 21, 2017, 08:08:PM
I done an experiment with an acrylic based oil.

Conclusion - It runs for a second or two then stops. The blob at the end is thicker than the trail.

lol

I admire your tenacity David. 

I think what you have done is to drop the oil on your palm or wrist while carefully rotating your wrist / lower arm to direct the flow of the oil.  If I am wrong in this then please correct me - nevertheless - you are barking up the wrong tree.

It should be born in mind, that the images of Sheila's arm are of very low quality on this forum. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 21, 2017, 08:13:PM
"The idea that he could invent a tale of a killing spree by a mentally disturbed woman to be lent credibility by further violent episodes over the following decades is hard to credit."

Is this referring to JB? - I have argued this on here for years.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 21, 2017, 08:14:PM
If it could be argued that Sheila and June died more or less simultaneously then I'd have said that the " droplets " on Sheila's arms were the result of June's injuries dropping/dripping onto Sheila before June succumbed.
I'm following the droplets of blood which were found around the area where Sheila was which had been found to belong to June------as well as those found on the carpet near a window.

June Bambers 'A' type blood, and Neville Bambers 'O' type blood were found upon Sheila Caffells nightdress!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 21, 2017, 08:17:PM
June Bambers 'A' type blood, and Neville Bambers 'O' type blood were found upon Sheila Caffells nightdress!

Now, is that just a coincidence?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 21, 2017, 08:19:PM
June Bambers 'A' type blood, and Neville Bambers 'O' type blood were found upon Sheila Caffells nightdress!

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 21, 2017, 08:35:PM
Here are his notes on Sheila's upper limbs, why would he mention an OLD scar on her left hand but leave out new injuries to her right hand and arm? These notes were written during the autopsy - it doesn't make any sense for him to leave out such information. My conclusion is that the CT have jumped the gun and just not thought things through. Venezis had no reason to lie, certainly NOT at that point (in you believe in the conspiracy).

I can't read it - other than upper limbs, bilateral and no other marks.  Vanezis may indeed have had no reason to lie at the outset.

Either there are notes missing (and her upper limbs were described at more than one point in his notes) - or the notes have possibly to some extent been re-written.

I think the opposite is true of the CT - they have not rushed to this at all in my view.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 21, 2017, 08:41:PM
I can't read it - other than upper limbs, bilateral and no other marks.  Vanezis may indeed have had no reason to lie at the outset.

Either there are notes missing (and her upper limbs were described at more than one point in his notes) - or the notes have possibly to some extent been re-written.

I think the opposite is true of the CT - they have not rushed to this at all in my view.

Hi Roch

am I correct in thinking in that the first report Vanezis did when it was a murders/suicide he said Sheila,s palm were blood stained and there was a palm print on her nightie then when Jeremy was charged with murder his report was different and he said Sheila's hands were clean.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 21, 2017, 08:46:PM
Hi Roch

am I correct in thinking in that the first report Vanezis did when it was a murders/suicide he said Sheila,s palm were blood stained and there was a palm print on her nightie then when Jeremy was charged with murder his report was different and he said Sheila's hands were clean.

Susan, I think the police / prosecution claimed her palms were free from blood.  Vanezis' post mortem notes seem to contradict this.  I do not know what was said by Vanezis at trial - regarding her palms per se.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 21, 2017, 08:53:PM
Susan, I think the police / prosecution claimed her palms were free from blood.  Vanezis' post mortem notes seem to contradict this.  I do not know what was said by Vanezis at trial - regarding her palms per se.

Roch I am not sure but I remember Caroline saying in  his second report when Jeremy was charged with murder he said Sheila's hands were clean.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 21, 2017, 09:00:PM
Roch I am not sure but I remember Caroline saying in  his second report when Jeremy was charged with murder he said Sheila's hands were clean.

Possibly - but I think her point is that in his handwritten notes, he doesnt mention Sheila having any marks on her upper limbs.  Presumably his handwritten notes don't mention the gouges and scrapes upon her right hand either.  Yet you have seen them for your self.   :-\
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on July 21, 2017, 09:17:PM
Possibly - but I think her point is that in his handwritten notes, he doesnt mention Sheila having any marks on her upper limbs.  Presumably his handwritten notes don't mention the gouges and scrapes upon her right hand either.  Yet you have seen them for your self.   :-\
They're consistent with Jeremy manhandling her to the floor, not to anyone who has been in combat with the two adults at the Farm.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 21, 2017, 09:24:PM
They're consistent with Jeremy manhandling her to the floor, not to anyone who has been in combat with the two adults at the Farm.
They look very much to me to have been caused by someone trying to grab at her right hand and arm. Maybe she was holding something someone else wanted. If they are consistent with someone manhandling her to the floor why hide it? 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 21, 2017, 09:55:PM
They look very much to me to have been caused by someone trying to grab at her right hand and arm. Maybe she was holding something someone else wanted. If they are consistent with someone manhandling her to the floor why hide it?

Maggie quite right why hide it !!!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 21, 2017, 10:02:PM
They're consistent with Jeremy manhandling her to the floor, not to anyone who has been in combat with the two adults at the Farm.

All three adult victims have fight wounds.  Jeremy has no wounds. 

Which scenario are the above circumstances most consistent with?

(A)  Jeremy fought with all three adults separately - without waking up the twins (unless
       they were killed first) and without sustaining any injuries himself.

(B)  Jeremy fought a combination of two or three adults at the same time - without waking up the
       twins and without sustaining any injuries himself.

(C)  Sheila fought with the other two adults either sperately or in combination - without waking up the
       twins (unless they were killed first).  Jeremy sustains no injuries himself - because he isn't present.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 21, 2017, 10:13:PM
All three adult victims have fight wounds.  Jeremy has no wounds. 

Which scenario are the above circumstances most consistent with?

(A)  Jeremy fought with all three adults separately - without waking up the twins (unless
       they were killed first) and without sustaining any injuries himself.

(B)  Jeremy fought a combination of two or three adults at the same time - without waking up the
       twins and without sustaining any injuries himself.

(C)  Sheila fought with the other two adults either sperately or in combination - without waking up the
       twins (unless they were killed first).  Jeremy sustains no injuries himself - because he isn't present.
It is clear to see Nevill has scratches on his forearms as well as gouge marks. The black marks are very like Sheil's black marks except each of her marks has a trail of blood running from them. Very probably because her blood would be less sticky and have a lower clotting rate due to her age plus Haloperidol has some blood thinning side effects. In comparison Nevill's marks clotted at the source probably due to his blood being stickier with a higher clotting rate.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on July 21, 2017, 10:15:PM
All three adult victims have fight wounds.  Jeremy has no wounds. 

Which scenario are the above circumstances most consistent with?

(A)  Jeremy fought with all three adults separately, without waking up the twins (unless
       they were killed first) and without sustaining any injuries himself.

(B)  Jeremy fought a combination of two or three adults at the same time - without waking up the
       twins and without sustaining any injuries himself.

(C)  Sheila fought with the other two adults either sperately or in combination, without waking up the
       twins (unless they were killed first).  Jeremy sustains no injuries himself - because he isn't present.
None of them, but Scenario A comes closest. Jeremy may have crept into the twins' room initially and shot them once each in the head to incapacitate, he then moved to the master bedroom where June was shot in bed and Nevill may have sustained the damage to arm or larynx there. Both tried to get downstairs, Nevill in an attempt to use the telephone and Jeremy to reload, which he succeeds in doing. He finishes Nevill off with more bullets, bashes him over the head with the rifle, goes back upstairs where he finds June has edged her way out of bed towards the door. He lashes out with his fist by giving her a black eye, then shoots her right between the eyes. He goes back into the twins room and in an arc pattern completes bullets to the head.

He is then in the position to enter Sheila's room, wake her up as she had done to him one Christmas as adolescents, and lead a disoriented young woman in a matter of seconds to her death.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 21, 2017, 11:28:PM
It is clear to see Nevill has scratches on his forearms as well as gouge marks. The black marks are very like Sheil's black marks except each of her marks has a trail of blood running from them. Very probably because her blood would be less sticky and have a lower clotting rate due to her age plus Haloperidol has some blood thinning side effects. In comparison Nevill's marks clotted at the source probably due to his blood being stickier with a higher clotting rate.

Yes there was a big debate about Nevill's arm a few years ago.  I can remember Alias and Patti being involved.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 21, 2017, 11:40:PM
Yes there was a big debate about Nevill's arm a few years ago.  I can remember Alias and Patti being involved.
I remember the discussion as well. Those marks have always looked like nail injuries to me, particularly as there are scratch marks as well. The official line is that the wounds were caused by the rifle end but that has never sounded convincing to me. I would think Nevill's forearms were weather beaten from working outside in all weather's and therefore his skin would be tough and resilient.  Those wounds were caused by tearing or gouging with something sharp imo.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 21, 2017, 11:58:PM
I repeated the experiment with the same make of oil. However this time I mixed it with acrylic thinner. About 30/70 mix.

You can see one stream change direction as I lifted up my arm to take a photo from underneath.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 22, 2017, 12:10:AM
Is this referring to JB? - I have argued this on here for years.

Yes  :)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 22, 2017, 12:13:AM
I haven't watched the video, but it's possible that Jeremy shot his sister as she was about to sit down by the cabinet, so the angle as depicted in #148 would have been similar.

Many things are possible in the steve_uk universe.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on July 22, 2017, 12:15:AM
I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here. David has made an attempt to replicate the blood flow on Sheila's arms, but what do you deduce from this? Maggie has brought up the marks on Nevill's arm, where skin has been torn off by some force. However Sheila's nails were reported to be intact. There was a small amount of toe nail varnish noticed on the kitchen floor by Peter Sutherst, but this doesn't prove much.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on July 22, 2017, 12:17:AM
Many things are possible in the steve_uk universe.
I believe you posted an inappropriate video during the week, which was sensibly removed by the moderators. I have consciously decided not to view your new black and white video lest this too is in bad taste.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 22, 2017, 08:11:AM
I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here. David has made an attempt to replicate the blood flow on Sheila's arms, but what do you deduce from this? Maggie has brought up the marks on Nevill's arm, where skin has been torn off by some force. However Sheila's nails were reported to be intact. There was a small amount of toe nail varnish noticed on the kitchen floor by Peter Sutherst, but this doesn't prove much.

Forty pictures on the site show no injuries on Sheila's arms, legs, shoulders, hands, feet & neck. The pathologist said she had no marks.

Lookout has said all the marks Bill said he has seen are by coincidence under Sheila's nightdress. Meaning Sheila committed the massacre naked or in underwear. Roch is saying Vanezis was part of the industrial frame.

It is good that the industrial frame is being looked at.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 22, 2017, 09:20:AM
Yes there was a big debate about Nevill's arm a few years ago.  I can remember Alias and Patti being involved.

Hi Roch

what great posters Alias and Patti were and not forgetting tyler wish they were back on the forum.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 22, 2017, 09:27:AM
I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here. David has made an attempt to replicate the blood flow on Sheila's arms, but what do you deduce from this? Maggie has brought up the marks on Nevill's arm, where skin has been torn off by some force. However Sheila's nails were reported to be intact. There was a small amount of toe nail varnish noticed on the kitchen floor by Peter Sutherst, but this doesn't prove much.
Well all nails are not equally strong,  some are weak and bend and tear,  some are very strong, mine are very strong and would not be damaged by scratching and grabbing at another person's arm.
In the instance of Sheila's injuries it is not the strength of her nails that is in question but rather someone else's.   
We have been told there were no marks on Sheila's hand and arm when there definitely are therefore it is not too much of a stretch of imagination to question whether all or some of her nails were actually intact. I am not trying to build a conspiracy theory but rather expanding thought processes from the photographic evidence of injuries to her hand.  I might add that because your computer image is not clear does not mean the injuries to her arm don't exist.  The photo put up of Sheila's hand is clear enough to at least throw up some questions even if you struggle to equate this with your own opinion
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 22, 2017, 09:59:AM
All three adult victims have fight wounds.  Jeremy has no wounds. 

Which scenario are the above circumstances most consistent with?

(A)  Jeremy fought with all three adults separately - without waking up the twins (unless
       they were killed first) and without sustaining any injuries himself.

(B)  Jeremy fought a combination of two or three adults at the same time - without waking up the
       twins and without sustaining any injuries himself.

(C)  Sheila fought with the other two adults either sperately or in combination - without waking up the
       twins (unless they were killed first).  Jeremy sustains no injuries himself - because he isn't present.

Simple, he shot the twins first - still don't beleve Sheila has the kind of marks you're suggesting but even if she did, they don't have to be finger nail injuries, that's a complete assumption and with a rifle to seperate him from his victims, why would Jeremy sustain any remarks?

I will translate Venezis's written notes.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 22, 2017, 10:27:AM
Forty pictures on the site show no injuries on Sheila's arms, legs, shoulders, hands, feet & neck. The pathologist said she had no marks.

Lookout has said all the marks Bill said he has seen are by coincidence under Sheila's nightdress. Meaning Sheila committed the massacre naked or in underwear. no it doesn't mean that she was naked at all, anybody can receive injuries on their skin beneath clothing worn by them! Oh, and Sheila was not wearing any panties or a bra' when cops staged her body on the main bedroom floor with the rifle from the bedroom window! Sheila did have marks upon various parts of her body, she had bruising around her throat, she had blood and marks on her right arm, she had blood on her hands and fingers, she had blood on her feet, and she had spots of Neville Bambers blood (O type), and spots of June Bambers blood (A type) on her nightdress! Roch is saying Vanezis was part of the industrial frame.

It is good that the industrial frame is being looked at.

The reason there was traces of Neville Bambers 'O' type blood found on her nightdress is self explanatory! Sheila struggled with him after she shot him and then killed him!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 22, 2017, 10:29:AM
Neville Bambers 'O' type blood was present upon Sheila Caffells nightdress because she shot him and struggled with him before she finished him off!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 22, 2017, 10:35:AM
Notes for Sheila

"Upper limbs - Red nail varnish on Nails, old scar back of left hand bilateral. Two scars beneath either breast. No other marks
Abdomen, stretch marks, small dressing on graze, left lumber area. Tampon in place."

Compared with what was notes about Nevil.
"Upper limb, loss of skin on palm of right hand, near 5th digit. There is a collection of bruises on right forearm, characteristics of end of barrel of rifle. Area bruising 2" by 4" slight bruising around elbow.

Upper limb, bruising of wrist and forearm

Wound 4" above left elbow - bruising - ? - 1/2"
grazing and bruising upper point of biceps 1" a further wound with slight bruising around 3/16" near
point of shoulder, on point of shoulder linear graze, 2".

The details given to marks on Nevil as opposed to Sheila and written on the day of the murders, PROVE there were no injuries to Sheila's right hand/arm. If there had been they would have been described here. He even described OLD scars and the slight graze covered by the dressing, it is beyond reason to suggest he would have described new abrasions on her arms and hands had they been present given the detail applied to wounds on Nevil.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 22, 2017, 10:41:AM
Neville Bambers 'O' type blood was present upon Sheila Caffells nightdress because she shot him and struggled with him before she finished him off!

On each of the entries for the nightdress, the blood group is stated as A not O.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 22, 2017, 10:54:AM
On each of the entries for the nightdress, the blood group is stated as A not O.

Do you know what " means?
The use of " means it is still referring to the same item (19 the nightdress)...

What other item could it possibly be referring to?


There is no other item listed on this lab' document, only item 19...
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 22, 2017, 10:58:AM
Anyway, we'll let Jeremy's campaign team get to the bottom of this, somebody is going to have to give an answer to this new development!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 22, 2017, 10:59:AM
Do you know what " means?
The use of " means it is still referring to the same item (19 the nightdress)...

What other item could it possibly be referring to?


There is no other item listed on this lab' document, only item 19...

Except double quotes aren't present on that document. In the description column various codes are mentioned only two specifically relate to the nightdress, BOTH indicate that A blood type was discovered when tested. I have no idea what the other items relate to but they don't relate to the nightdress.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 22, 2017, 11:00:AM
We've had a trick of light used as an excuse, a trick of police radio messages, a trick of bodies downstairs and upstairs, and I guess the guilty camp are going to be suggesting that what we are dealing with here is a trick of blood!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 22, 2017, 11:04:AM
Except double quotes aren't present on that document. In the description column various codes are mentioned only two specifically relate to the nightdress, BOTH indicate that A blood type was discovered when tested. I have no idea what the other items relate to but they don't relate to the nightdress.

They do relate to the nightdress, because of the " underneath reference to the nightdress, item 19, what else can the entry relate to?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 22, 2017, 11:06:AM
Notes for Sheila

"Upper limbs - Red nail varnish on Nails, old scar back of left hand bilateral. Two scars beneath either breast. No other marks
Abdomen, stretch marks, small dressing on graze, left lumber area. Tampon in place."

Compared with what was notes about Nevil.
"Upper limb, loss of skin on palm of right hand, near 5th digit. There is a collection of bruises on right forearm, characteristics of end of barrel of rifle. Area bruising 2" by 4" slight bruising around elbow.

Upper limb, bruising of wrist and forearm

Wound 4" above left elbow - bruising - ? - 1/2"
grazing and bruising upper point of biceps 1" a further wound with slight bruising around 3/16" near
point of shoulder, on point of shoulder linear graze, 2".

The details given to marks on Nevil as opposed to Sheila and written on the day of the murders, PROVE there were no injuries to Sheila's right hand/arm. If there had been they would have been described here. He even described OLD scars and the slight graze covered by the dressing, it is beyond reason to suggest he would have described new abrasions on her arms and hands had they been present given the detail applied to wounds on Nevil.
I really don't know why you bother Caroline, a person who has been involved in and invited all over the world because of his expertise in Pathology, not a blemish on his career, has either failed to spot 28 cuts/lacerations or he's as bent as nine bob note.  I don't think posters realise, the body would have been washed of blood during and after the autopsy, yet we have posters saying they can defiantly see grazing from pictures that would have been available at trial, I suppose they can read a body picture better than Vanezis and it's given them an excuse to change back to innocent from when PH wrote his book ha ha.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 22, 2017, 11:12:AM
I really don't know why you bother Caroline, a person who has been involved in and invited all over the world because of his expertise in Pathology, not a blemish on his career, has either failed to spot 28 cuts/lacerations or he's as bent as nine bob note.  I don't think posters realise, the body would have been washed of blood during and after the autopsy, yet we have posters saying they can defiantly see grazing from pictures that would have been available at trial, I suppose they can read a body picture better than Vanezis and it's given them an excuse to change back to innocent from when PH wrote his book ha ha.

The blood experts did not miss the presence of Neville Bambers 'O' type blood found on Sheila Caffells nightdress, that's for sure! Neville Bambers was the only 'O' type blood of the three adult victims! It was found on Sheila's nightdress! Marks in blood or bruising were present upon the arms of Neville Bamber and Sheila Caffell consistent with them both having struggled with one another at some point! Sheila definitely had bruising to her neck! You can scoff all you like!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 22, 2017, 11:15:AM
I really don't know why you bother Caroline, a person who has been involved in and invited all over the world because of his expertise in Pathology, not a blemish on his career, has either failed to spot 28 cuts/lacerations or he's as bent as nine bob note.  I don't think posters realise, the body would have been washed of blood during and after the autopsy, yet we have posters saying they can defiantly see grazing from pictures that would have been available at trial, I suppose they can read a body picture better than Vanezis and it's given them an excuse to change back to innocent from when PH wrote his book ha ha.

That is correct. Vanezis would have performed his work on Sheila minus her nightdress. So Lookout's suggestion that all of Sheila's cuts were underneath her nightie has to be dismissed.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 22, 2017, 11:16:AM
That is correct. Vanezis would have performed his work on Sheila minus her nightdress. So Lookout's suggestion that all of Sheila's cuts were underneath her nightie has to be dismissed.

Incorrect!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 22, 2017, 11:19:AM
Incorrect!
So they perform an autopsy on fully clothed victims and don't look underneath garments?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 22, 2017, 11:21:AM
The blood experts did not miss the presence of Neville Bambers 'O' type blood found on Sheila Caffells nightdress, that's for sure! Neville Bambers was the only 'O' type blood of the three adult victims! It was found on Sheila's nightdress! Marks in blood or bruising were present upon the arms of Neville Bamber and Sheila Caffell consistent with them both having struggled with one another at some point! Sheila definitely had bruising to her neck! You can scoff all you like!

The document you posted shows that blood on the nightdress was A not O.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 22, 2017, 11:21:AM
Incorrect!

How is that incorrect?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 22, 2017, 11:25:AM
This is the same Peter Venezis who removed a piece of badly fragmented bullet (PV/20) from Sheila's neck during autopsy performed by him on 7 August 1985, a bullet which by 20 September 1985, had become transformed into a whole bullet, so the the prosecutions ballistic expert (Fletcher) could associate it (PV/20) and the other bullet (PV/19) recovered from Sheila Caffells brain to and with the anshuzt rifle! Why hasn't Venezis come forward to say that the piece of badly fragmented bullet which was the original PV/20 exhinit was not a whole bullet? When any of you can work out why this has happened and why Venezis has been kept out of the loop, I would be really interested to hear from you!

Bullets don't grow from being a piece of badly fragmented bullet, into a whole bullet in a month and a half duration! If they did our mi!itary would be very interested in knowing about this technique and it would save to ernments billions of pounds or dollars in budget!

A growing bullet, eh, what?

Oh, 'a trick of bullets', I get the gist now..
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 22, 2017, 11:31:AM
The document you posted shows that blood on the nightdress was A not O.

It shows 'A' and 'O' type blood, anyway we'll leave it to the lab' experts to explain to Jeremy's campaign team! I'm confident that I am right, there is no other item mentioned or listed on the lab' documents t only Sheila Caffells nightdress! They definitely detected 'O' type blood on the nightdress, it says so on the document. Only Neville Bamber had 'O' type blood! It doesn't matter a jot to me whether you choose to ignore the significance of this or not!  Let the experts sort it out, and I am sure they will in due course!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 22, 2017, 11:35:AM
This is the same Peter Venezis who removed a piece of badly fragmented bullet (PV/20) from Sheila's neck during autopsy performed by him on 7 August 1985, a bullet which by 20 September 1985, had become transformed into a whole bullet, so the the prosecutions ballistic expert (Fletcher) could associate it (PV/20) and the other bullet (PV/19) recovered from Sheila Caffells brain to and with the anshuzt rifle! Why hasn't Venezis come forward to say that the piece of badly fragmented bullet which was the original PV/20 exhinit was not a whole bullet? When any of you can work out why this has happened and why Venezis has been kept out of the loop, I would be really interested to hear from you!

Bullets don't grow from being a piece of badly fragmented bullet, into a whole bullet in a month and a half duration! If they did our mi!itary would be very interested in knowing about this technique and it would save to ernments billions of pounds or dollars in budget!

A growing bullet, eh, what?

Oh, 'a trick of bullets', I get the gist now..
Out of what Loop? As late as 2001 he was awarded  £750,000, Crown Office Grant April 2000/2001. For the  provision and development of Forensic Pathology Services in the West of Scotland.  I wish I was in the same bloody loop. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 22, 2017, 11:35:AM
So they perform an autopsy on fully clothed victims and don't look underneath garments?

I meant it's incorrect what you said about what Lookout had said! Of course a person can receive injuries to their body beneath clothing, or in this case beneath a flimsy looking nightdress, without damaging the nightdress!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 22, 2017, 11:37:AM
All this started because very infrequent poster Bill made a rare & brief visit to the forum, & said he has seen 28 scratches on Sheila. Then left.

Supporters have to jump on this as there is not much else to go on.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 22, 2017, 11:40:AM
It shows 'A' and 'O' type blood, anyway we'll leave it to the lab' experts to explain to Jeremy's campaign team! I'm confident that I am right, there is no other item mentioned or listed on the lab' documents t only Sheila Caffells nightdress! They definitely detected 'O' type blood on the nightdress, it says so on the document. Only Neville Bamber had 'O' type blood! It doesn't matter a jot to me whether you choose to ignore the significance of this or not!  Let the experts sort it out, and I am sure they will in due course!

I am also confident that I am right.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 22, 2017, 11:41:AM
Out of what Loop? As late as 2001 he was awarded  £750,000, Crown Office Grant April 2000/2001. For the  provision and development of Forensic Pathology Services in the West of Scotland.  I wish I was in the same bloody loop.

I am not bothered what he was awarded, or how highly he is rated, he needs to step up to the mark and make a big issue about the piece of badly fragmented bullet (exhibit PV/29) which he took from Sheila's neck, during an autopsy he performed on the corpse of Sheila Caffell, and he needs to refute the fact stated by the ballistic expert that by 20 September it could have been a whole bullet! I'm not bothered whether Venezis is related to the Queen of Sheba, or whatever! He needs to refute the suggestion that exhibit PV/20 was a whole bullet, because it wasn't! Somebody switched it, and Venezis in all his pomp and glory needs to be refuting such a suggestion!!

But I expect that he won't..
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 22, 2017, 11:42:AM
I am also confident that I am right.

Good, we'll wait and see then!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 22, 2017, 11:43:AM
All this started because very infrequent poster Bill made a rare & brief visit to the forum, & said he has seen 28 scratches on Sheila. Then left.

Supporters have to jump on this as there is not much else to go on.
Yes, it will be great to see them in Jeremy's next submission, but again I suppose it will be a cover up by the CCRC again I don't think they are in the loop?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 22, 2017, 11:45:AM
I am not bothered what he was awarded, or how highly he is rated, he needs to step up to the mark and make a big issue about the piece of badly fragmented bullet (exhibit PV/29) which he took from Sheila's neck, during an autopsy he performed on the corpse of Sheila Caffell, and he needs to refute the fact stated by the ballistic expert that by 20 September it could have been a whole bullet! I'm not bothered whether Venezis is related to the Queen of Sheba, or whatever! He needs to refute the suggestion that exhibit PV/20 was a whole bullet, because it wasn't! Somebody switched it, and Venezis in all his pomp and glory needs to be refuting such a suggestion!!

But I expect that he won't..
You said he was out of the loop?  What loop?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 22, 2017, 11:47:AM
Mike, here you suggested (back in 2012) that the list of abbreviations relate to samples taken from  the nightdress http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3285.msg128816.html#msg128816

Were that the case, the document would have been headed nightdress instead the 'nightdress' forms part of the list indicating that the other entries relate to other items.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 22, 2017, 12:00:PM
Mike, here you suggested (back in 2012) that the list of abbreviations relate to samples taken from  the nightdress http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3285.msg128816.html#msg128816

Were that the case, the document would have been headed nightdress instead the 'nightdress' forms part of the list indicating that the other entries relate to other items.

The other entries you refer to, were samples taken from the nightdress, which tested positive for 'A' type blood on 4 occasions, and tested positive for 'O' type blood on five separate occasions! In any event we have the signature of the expert confirming that 'A' and 'O' blood was found to be present on the nightdress! As you know, only Neville Bamber was the only adult victims with 'O' type blood, albeit both child victims also shared 'O' type blood! Technically speaking therefore, Neville Bambers, Daniel and Nicholas Caffells bloods could have all been found on Sheila's nightdress!

At least two different types of 'O' blood were found to be present on Sheila's nightdress, namely 003 and 002+
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 22, 2017, 12:10:PM
This suggests the the 'O' type blood found on Sheila's nightdress came from at least two but possibly three different sources! I believe this is capable of suggesting that 'O' type blood found on Sheila's nightdress originated from at least two of the four victims that she was responsible for shooting!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 22, 2017, 12:42:PM
I really don't know why you bother Caroline, a person who has been involved in and invited all over the world because of his expertise in Pathology, not a blemish on his career, has either failed to spot 28 cuts/lacerations or he's as bent as nine bob note.  I don't think posters realise, the body would have been washed of blood during and after the autopsy, yet we have posters saying they can defiantly see grazing from pictures that would have been available at trial, I suppose they can read a body picture better than Vanezis..

Yes, this is well realised.  I have absolutely no doubt Vanezis would have seen the cuts and abrasions after the washing away of blood. It would be impossible for him not to have seen them.

Unless I saw the exact photos used at trial, then I don't agree with your specific point on that.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 22, 2017, 12:50:PM
Yes, it will be great to see them in Jeremy's next submission, but again I suppose it will be a cover up by the CCRC again I don't think they are in the loop?

Not sure if it will be in next submission - but if people on here are a snapshot of society.. and people on here can pretend they can't see nail gouges on a human hand - then why should the CCRC be concerned about rejecting such submissions?  To some extent, they can rely upon the pretenders to shore them up.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 22, 2017, 01:46:PM
All this started because very infrequent poster Bill made a rare & brief visit to the forum, & said he has seen 28 scratches on Sheila. Then left.

Supporters have to jump on this as there is not much else to go on.
Well Adam, I was not a 'supporter' I have nothing to prove, am not naive or a fool but I do recognise what my eyes see.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 22, 2017, 02:04:PM
Not sure if it will be in next submission - but if people on here are a snapshot of society.. and people on here can pretend they can't see nail gouges on a human hand - then why should the CCRC be concerned about rejecting such submissions?  To some extent, they can rely upon the pretenders to shore them up.
Does that make me corrupt, pretend I like that ha ha.  What would I pretend for, so everyone who can't see what Roch can see is either pretending or corrupt.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 22, 2017, 02:08:PM
Does that make me corrupt, pretend I like that ha ha.  What would I pretend for, so everyone who can't see what Roch can see is either pretending or corrupt.

I do not believe you are corrupt and have never intimated that you are.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 22, 2017, 02:19:PM
I do not believe you are corrupt and have never intimated that you are.
Well I'm not ptretending I can assure you
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 22, 2017, 02:22:PM
I do not believe you are corrupt and have never intimated that you are.
I know you don't think I'm corrupt, you think that those involved in the cover up are corrupt or pretending?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 22, 2017, 04:21:PM
Yes, this is well realised.  I have absolutely no doubt Vanezis would have seen the cuts and abrasions after the washing away of blood. It would be impossible for him not to have seen them.

Unless I saw the exact photos used at trial, then I don't agree with your specific point on that.

They are not cuts. The only ones that look like cuts are the small marks near the thumb.

Which is rather interesting. Because while holding the weapon they would be in this position (give or take)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 22, 2017, 04:44:PM
Well all nails are not equally strong,  some are weak and bend and tear,  some are very strong, mine are very strong and would not be damaged by scratching and grabbing at another person's arm.
In the instance of Sheila's injuries it is not the strength of her nails that is in question but rather someone else's.   
We have been told there were no marks on Sheila's hand and arm when there definitely are therefore it is not too much of a stretch of imagination to question whether all or some of her nails were actually intact. I am not trying to build a conspiracy theory but rather expanding thought processes from the photographic evidence of injuries to her hand.  I might add that because your computer image is not clear does not mean the injuries to her arm don't exist.  The photo put up of Sheila's hand is clear enough to at least throw up some questions even if you struggle to equate this with your own opinion

Maggie great post I know your computer image of the marks on Sheila's hands is much clearer than mine and you can see the marks very clearly I accept that cos I know you well enough to not make it up.  The image on mine is very grainy so others who cannot see them may have the same problem as me In view of this I am willing to discuss the scratches and gouges but it seems some are not. NGB has seen them and that is good enough for me you Roch and NGB what more proof  do I need.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 22, 2017, 05:00:PM
They are not cuts. The only ones that look like cuts are the small marks near the thumb.

Which is rather interesting. Because while holding the weapon they would be in this position (give or take)

The image you have posted up shows fingernail gouges and scrapes, plus an angled cut on her trigger finger, from compression against a machined part.  There are very small wounds near the base of her thumb, if that's what you are referring to.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 22, 2017, 05:04:PM
I know you don't think I'm corrupt, you think that those involved in the cover up are corrupt or pretending?

By definition, if somebody is involved in a cover up, they might be considered corrupt (if there is some benefit or reward involved).  I suppose it is possible to be involved without necessarily being 'corrupt' per se.  However, their integrity might be called in to question.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 22, 2017, 07:18:PM
Maggie great post I know your computer image of the marks on Sheila's hands is much clearer than mine and you can see the marks very clearly I accept that cos I know you well enough to not make it up.  The image on mine is very grainy so others who cannot see them may have the same problem as me In view of this I am willing to discuss the scratches and gouges but it seems some are not. NGB has seen them and that is good enough for me you Roch and NGB what more proof  do I need.
Thank you for your support susan. Going by the images on my laptop I can certainly see how grainy the images can be which helps me to understand people's difficulty with the blood tasils on Sheila's arm.  For some unexpected reason the pics on my clapped out tablet are very clear which has made it possible for me to see the dark spots with the blood trails far more clearly.  I do think the pic Roch put up of sheila's hand is clear enough to see there are marks etc. on her hand.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 22, 2017, 07:28:PM
By definition, if somebody is involved in a cover up, they might be considered corrupt (if there is some benefit or reward involved).  I suppose it is possible to be involved without necessarily being 'corrupt' per se.  However, their integrity might be called in to question.
The jury was shown different photos of Sheila  with the blood staining to her hands kneck etc then they was shown photos of Sheila CLEANED up and told to compare the photos

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7638.0;attach=44888
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 22, 2017, 07:35:PM
Thank you for your support susan. Going by the images on my laptop I can certainly see how grainy the images can be which helps me to understand people's difficulty with the blood tasils on Sheila's arm.  For some unexpected reason the pics on my clapped out tablet are very clear which has made it possible for me to see the dark spots with the blood trails far more clearly.  I do think the pic Roch put up of sheila's hand is clear enough to see there are marks etc. on her hand.

Maggie I can see the scratches and gauge marks and the wee mark between the finger and thumb maybe caused by holding the rifle to me it is obvious that Sheila fought with somebody and I would have to guess another female because mens finger nails are not sharp and are much shorter especially nails belonging to a farmer.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on July 22, 2017, 08:16:PM
I'm just not seeing this so someone will have to point it out to me.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 22, 2017, 08:45:PM
I'm just not seeing this so someone will have to point it out to me.

Steve sorry I am unable to do this maybe Roch can help.  Jeremy may have been a cold fish if he was raised without being shown love that would have affected the way he was I am sure June loved him but don't think she was one for showing emotions just the feeling I get I maybe wrong of course she was a good woman but wrapped up in her religion.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 22, 2017, 09:21:PM
Thank you for your support susan. Going by the images on my laptop I can certainly see how grainy the images can be which helps me to understand people's difficulty with the blood tasils on Sheila's arm.  For some unexpected reason the pics on my clapped out tablet are very clear which has made it possible for me to see the dark spots with the blood trails far more clearly.  I do think the pic Roch put up of sheila's hand is clear enough to see there are marks etc. on her hand.
Any chance you can take a photo of the picture on your tablet and show us the clearer pictures Maggie?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on July 22, 2017, 09:27:PM
Steve sorry I am unable to do this maybe Roch can help.  Jeremy may have been a cold fish if he was raised without being shown love that would have affected the way he was I am sure June loved him but don't think she was one for showing emotions just the feeling I get I maybe wrong of course she was a good woman but wrapped up in her religion.
Yes and we see a pattern with June Bamber and Margaret Bain.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 22, 2017, 09:37:PM
Yes and we see a pattern with June Bamber and Margaret Bain.

Steve indeed we do.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 22, 2017, 10:21:PM
The jury was shown different photos of Sheila  with the blood staining to her hands kneck etc then they was shown photos of Sheila CLEANED up and told to compare the photos

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7638.0;attach=44888

I read the document (as much as I could make it out).  It seems to be all about Sheila's neck?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 22, 2017, 10:33:PM
I read the document (as much as I could make it out).  It seems to be all about Sheila's neck?
If you read the one before it Roch, it follows on from talking about Sheila's hands, you could be right but there is a dash (punctuation mark) after he has talked about cleaning up?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 23, 2017, 09:30:AM
I read the document (as much as I could make it out).  It seems to be all about Sheila's neck?
The one before clearly shows he is talking about the hands,

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7638.0;attach=44887

This then follows next page.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7638.0;attach=44888

The jury were clearly shown before and after clean up photos of Sheila's body, they also were shown close up pictures of Sheila's hands because they discussed the nicotine staining and the BLOOD smearing on her hand that you and supporters claim to be mark. The Jury were also shown close up pictures of left and right hands to show nicotine staining to the right hand.  It was Bird who took the photos while Vanezis carried out the autopsy, he held all the negatives, the photos Vanzesis used at trial were put into different coloured files, the ones showing private parts would be put into pii I would have thought?

Another thing I find in Vanzesis honesty, he is openly critical of the police for not calling a pathologist to the crime scene, he also says he would have called ballistics as well and recomended that this was the future practice to do so.

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 23, 2017, 10:22:AM
The one before clearly shows he is talking about the hands,

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7638.0;attach=44887

This then follows next page.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7638.0;attach=44888

The jury were clearly shown before and after clean up photos of Sheila's body, they also were shown close up pictures of Sheila's hands because they discussed the nicotine staining and the BLOOD smearing on her hand that you and supporters claim to be mark. The Jury were also shown close up pictures of left and right hands to show nicotine staining to the right hand.  It was Bird who took the photos while Vanezis carried out the autopsy, he held all the negatives, the photos Vanzesis used at trial were put into different coloured files, the ones showing private parts would be put into pii I would have thought?

Another thing I find in Vanzesis honesty, he is openly critical of the police for not calling a pathologist to the crime scene, he also says he would have called ballistics as well and recomended that this was the future practice to do so.

Where does it say anywhere in those extracts, that the jury were shown close up images of the hands before and after cleansing?  It sounds like they may have been shown a close up of Sheila's neck, before and after cleansing - hence the reference to Sheila's chin.   How do we even know what level of quality the photographs or images used at trial were?

Some people have been members of this forum for seven years - and they still from time to time learn something new about case, gain an alternative understanding about a certain aspect or change their opinion about this or that.  They notice different things in images after viewing them over and over again or after being prompted by the enquiries of a fellow member.

In a trial - with an enforced jury of 'non-case experts', viewing images of which we do not know the quality, while simultaneously being led through the preprepared question and answer sessions between Arlidge, Drake and Vanezis - it is possible for a portion of that jury to simply believe what they were being shown and told - without really understanding what this was or the implications of what it meant.  The members of the jury in 1986 were not selected from members of this forum - with the benefit of everything that is known in 2017. 

With regards to her hand alone - you wish to second guess from a sparsely worded transcript from 1986 - instead of allowing your own eyes to recognise what is in front of them.  Since when do runs or smears of blood penetrate the human skin?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 23, 2017, 11:33:AM
Where does it say anywhere in those extracts, that the jury were shown close up images of the hands before and after cleansing?  It sounds like they may have been shown a close up of Sheila's neck, before and after cleansing - hence the reference to Sheila's chin.   How do we even know what level of quality the photographs or images used at trial were?

Some people have been members of this forum for seven years - and they still from time to time learn something new about case, gain an alternative understanding about a certain aspect or change their opinion about this or that.  They notice different things in images after viewing them over and over again or after being prompted by the enquiries of a fellow member.

In a trial - with an enforced jury of 'non-case experts', viewing images of which we do not know the quality, while simultaneously being led through the preprepared question and answer sessions between Arlidge, Drake and Vanezis - it is possible for a portion of that jury to simply believe what they were being shown and told - without really understanding what this was or the implications of what it meant.  The members of the jury in 1986 were not selected from members of this forum - with the benefit of everything that is known in 2017. 

With regards to her hand alone - you wish to second guess from a sparsely worded transcript from 1986 - instead of allowing your own eyes to recognise what is in front of them.  Since when do runs or smears of blood penetrate the human skin?
I suggest you read the whole court testimony, I think your right, I would sooner take the word of Vanezis and his court testimony, than the word of someone who knows "F" all about pathology and how a autopsy is performed and what happens at a trial, who then  calls a man corrupt looking at the same photo I am looking at.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 23, 2017, 11:42:AM
I suggest you read the whole court testimony, I think your right, I would sooner take the word of Vanezis and his court testimony, than the word of someone who knows "F" all about pathology and how a autopsy is performed and what happens at a trial, who then  calls a man corrupt looking at the same photo I am looking at.

I think we should keep things civil as possible.  As when things degenrate to trading blows - nothing good comes of it for anyone involved.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 23, 2017, 12:00:PM
I think we should keep things civil as possible.  As when things degenrate to trading blows - nothing good comes of it for anyone involved.
Well it would be nice to not accuse posters of pretending they cannot see what you see.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 23, 2017, 12:20:PM
Well it would be nice to not accuse posters of pretending they cannot see what you see.

Well it would be nice to not accuse posters of pretending they cannot see what you see.

OK, I retract the term 'pretend'. 

Here is my reasoning for my approach on this: 

Visually, it's very clear to me what is a cut and what is a smear.  I go by my own eyes and not by a preprepared trial argument, set-up for the purpose of aiding a conviction to be obtained.  A smear and a run of blood cannot incise human skin.  I think people are viewing things while simulataneously blocking out what they are seeing - because of the opinion given by Vanezis in court (or for that matter his notes - which I concur - is more tricky, at least in theory - i.e. on the premise the notes are complete and 100% genuine).

Drake was the judge in the Carl Bridgewater case and another controversial case in the 1970's.  Vanezis has also given expert testimony in another case where a man served 7 years in prison before being released upon appeal.   I do not view these people as 'gods'.  They are not infallable.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 23, 2017, 12:32:PM
Where does it say anywhere in those extracts, that the jury were shown close up images of the hands before and after cleansing?  It sounds like they may have been shown a close up of Sheila's neck, before and after cleansing - hence the reference to Sheila's chin.   How do we even know what level of quality the photographs or images used at trial were?

Some people have been members of this forum for seven years - and they still from time to time learn something new about case, gain an alternative understanding about a certain aspect or change their opinion about this or that.  They notice different things in images after viewing them over and over again or after being prompted by the enquiries of a fellow member.

In a trial - with an enforced jury of 'non-case experts', viewing images of which we do not know the quality, while simultaneously being led through the preprepared question and answer sessions between Arlidge, Drake and Vanezis - it is possible for a portion of that jury to simply believe what they were being shown and told - without really understanding what this was or the implications of what it meant.  The members of the jury in 1986 were not selected from members of this forum - with the benefit of everything that is known in 2017. 

With regards to her hand alone - you wish to second guess from a sparsely worded transcript from 1986 - instead of allowing your own eyes to recognise what is in front of them.  Since when do runs or smears of blood penetrate the human skin?

Venezis is being questioned about the blood trails on Sheila's arms, the questioner is pointing to a particular photograph which he is clearly looking at, because he states that "they look as if", and if he is scrutinising it then so will the jury. They would all have a copy of the photographs for reference. The pictures they had wouldn't have been copies of copies and nor would they have been grainy - but not one of them or anyone else looking at the original CS photographs (including the defence) came up up with the notion that they are injuries and I say again, there is no reason why Venezis would not have included such injuries in his original notes given the detail he afforded to those on Nevil. No one has given a good reason for him not to mention these marks and are happy to basically label him a liar.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 23, 2017, 12:35:PM
Well it would be nice to not accuse posters of pretending they cannot see what you see.

I'm with you Justice, I don't see it either but I DO SEE that Venezis didn't mention any abrasions or cuts on Sheila's hand/arm but mentioned old scars and went into great detail about those on Nevil's body. There is a cloud in the sky that looks a bit like an elephant - it's still a cloud though!  ;) ;D
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 23, 2017, 12:37:PM
This suggests the the 'O' type blood found on Sheila's nightdress came from at least two but possibly three different sources! I believe this is capable of suggesting that 'O' type blood found on Sheila's nightdress originated from at least two of the four victims that she was responsible for shooting!

Hi Mike, we need to know what those symbols mean in the column headings, I know the B where the left side extends stand for 'beta' not sure what the other symbol means but I have seen it before. Once you know what they stand for, we can find out what the tests mean.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 23, 2017, 12:38:PM
By definition, if somebody is involved in a cover up, they might be considered corrupt (if there is some benefit or reward involved).  I suppose it is possible to be involved without necessarily being 'corrupt' per se.  However, their integrity might be called in to question.

What cover up was Venezis involved in on the 7th August 1985?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 23, 2017, 12:41:PM
OK, I retract the term 'pretend'. 

Here is my reasoning for my approach on this: 

Visually, it's very clear to me what is a cut and what is a smear.  I go by my own eyes and not by a preprepared trial argument, set-up for the purpose of aiding a conviction to be obtained.  A smear and a run of blood cannot incise human skin.  I think people are viewing things while simulataneously blocking out what they are seeing - because of the opinion given by Vanezis in court (or for that matter his notes - which I concur - is more tricky, at least in theory - i.e. on the premise the notes are complete and 100% genuine).

Drake was the judge in the Carl Bridgewater case and another controversial case in the 1970's.  Vanezis has also given expert testimony in another case where a man served 7 years in prison before being released upon appeal.   I do not view these people as 'gods'.  They are not infallable.

Vanezis testimony was actually favourable to Jeremy. But its just not apparent to layman person. Its most likely he was pressured by Ainsley and CO but come trial he tried to elicit the truth without making it obvious hoping the Jury would pic up on it or that at least his testimony stays on record for future revision.

As for the 'cuts' there are two others near the forearm that resemble superficial scratches. As opposed to the streams of blood on top of the arm.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 23, 2017, 12:46:PM
Venezis is being questioned about the blood trails on Sheila's arms, the questioner is pointing to a particular photograph which he is clearly looking at, because he states that "they look as if", and if he is scrutinising it then so will the jury. They would all have a copy of the photographs for reference. The pictures they had wouldn't have been copies of copies and nor would they have been grainy - but not one of them or anyone else looking at the original CS photographs (including the defence) came up up with the notion that they are injuries and I say again, there is no reason why Venezis would not have included such injuries in his original notes given the detail he afforded to those on Nevil. No one has given a good reason for him not to mention these marks and are happy to basically label him a liar.

Yes I've read all that.  Nobody on here can provide proof regarding the quality of the images used or how close-up the images of her right hand or arm were.  In my opinion, the best interests of police and prosecution would have been served by not showing really clear close-ups of the right hand or right arm.

Your stance always seems to be 'nobody has given him a good reason why he would lie'.  You should instead use your own eyes.  It is patently clear the the two marks on the back of her hand and the one on the inside of her index are not just smears. 

Dripped smears dont just begin from nowhere, underneath or on top of a crescent-like cut.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 23, 2017, 12:49:PM
What cover up was Venezis involved in on the 7th August 1985?

I didn't say that he was - however - I am not 100% that his notes are 100% genuine. 

I feel the same way about Juie Mugford's 'diary'.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 23, 2017, 12:51:PM
Vanezis testimony was actually favourable to Jeremy. But its just not apparent to layman person. Its most likely he was pressured by Ainsley and CO but come trial he tried to elicit the truth without making it obvious hoping the Jury would pic up on it or that at least his testimony stays on record for future revision.

As for the 'cuts' there are two others near the forearm that resemble superficial scratches. As opposed to the streams of blood on top of the arm.

What are the two small marks diagonally up from the section you have highlighted?  Presumably 'smears'?

Smears without any source adjacent to them or around them?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 23, 2017, 12:55:PM
Vanezis testimony was actually favourable to Jeremy. But its just not apparent to layman person. Its most likely he was pressured by Ainsley and CO but come trial he tried to elicit the truth without making it obvious hoping the Jury would pic up on it or that at least his testimony stays on record for future revision.

As for the 'cuts' there are two others near the forearm that resemble superficial scratches. As opposed to the streams of blood on top of the arm.
I have to agree with you David, Vanezis performed the autopsy when it was thought Sheila had committed the murders and took her own life, also I cannot pick up anywhere in his hand written notes where he mentions cuts/grazing to Sheila, I must say though I can't read it all.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 23, 2017, 12:59:PM
I have to agree with you David, Vanezis performed the autopsy when it was thought Sheila had committed the murders and took her own life, also I cannot pick up anywhere in his hand written notes where he mentions cuts/grazing to Sheila, I must say though I can't read it all.

And you won't because there weren't any - I too have my own eyes.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 23, 2017, 01:19:PM
Yes I've read all that.  Nobody on here can provide proof regarding the quality of the images used or how close-up the images of her right hand or arm were.  In my opinion, the best interests of police and prosecution would have been served by not showing really clear close-ups of the right hand or right arm.

Your stance always seems to be 'nobody has given him a good reason why he would lie'.  You should instead use your own eyes.  It is patently clear the the two marks on the back of her hand and the one on the inside of her index are not just smears. 

Dripped smears dont just begin from nowhere, underneath or on top of a crescent-like cut.
We don't know how many times Bamber moved Sheila's hand position to set the scene for suicide position, or we don't know if or how Sheila used her hand to stop flow of blood after the first shot and how it ran onto her hands, we can only guess, the main question is can one see cuts or abrasions?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 23, 2017, 01:24:PM
And you won't because there weren't any - I too have my own eyes.

There are several.  I havent even mentioned the top of her arm.  We're still on the lower arm / hand  :))

There are incisions without any source.  A dripped volume of blood from a neck wound, does not cause  incisions on human skin - leaving absolutely no blood around the incisions. 

Reasons have already been given for Vanezis to cooperate with police.  He may even have done so while simultaneously trying to be helpful to JB (as David suggests).  People are complex creatures.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 23, 2017, 01:27:PM
I'm with you Justice, I don't see it either but I DO SEE that Venezis didn't mention any abrasions or cuts on Sheila's hand/arm but mentioned old scars and went into great detail about those on Nevil's body. There is a cloud in the sky that looks a bit like an elephant - it's still a cloud though!  ;) ;D
The problem I have and you will be the same as me Caroline, I want to see it, I really do, but I'm afraid I really cannot see anything other than blood smearing.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 23, 2017, 01:33:PM
I didn't say that he was - however - I am not 100% that his notes are 100% genuine. 

I feel the same way about Juie Mugford's 'diary'.

I am 100% certain that they are, but once again, for you to be right, another piece of evidence had to be engineered because you have no explanation why he would leave such abrasions out of his notes because in fact, he wouldn't.

Mugford didn't ever state that she kept a diary of events as they unfolded, the diary was written after the events.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 23, 2017, 01:35:PM
The problem I have and you will be the same as me Caroline, I want to see it, I really do, but I'm afraid I really cannot see anything other than blood smearing.

Yes, if it's there, I'd like to see it. Clearly there is no pictures that shows with 100% clarity that they are cuts or that picture would have been posted. I can see how people might believe they are cuts but the evidence doesn't support that - at all.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 23, 2017, 01:37:PM
The problem I have and you will be the same as me Caroline, I want to see it, I really do, but I'm afraid I really cannot see anything other than blood smearing.
Why would Vanezis and the police release these photos to trial, if, for one minute they contradicted or jeopardised their prosecution, it would have been quite simple to say, Sheila sustained cuts fighting Bamber off
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 23, 2017, 01:44:PM
I have to agree with you David, Vanezis performed the autopsy when it was thought Sheila had committed the murders and took her own life, also I cannot pick up anywhere in his hand written notes where he mentions cuts/grazing to Sheila, I must say though I can't read it all.

I think you've misunderstood me.

Vanesiz knew then and knows to this day that Sheila took her own life. And tried to get that across to the court and Jury without showing conspicuous defiance to the authorities who put pressure on him. Either due to integrity or trying to cover his arse from any future inquest.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 23, 2017, 01:48:PM
Why would Vanezis and the police release these photos to trial, if, for one minute they contradicted or jeopardised their prosecution, it would have been quite simple to say, Sheila sustained cuts fighting Bamber off

But that's the whole point isn't it.  We dont know how clear the photographs were at trial.  They cannot have been crystal clear close-ups - otherwise Drake and Arlidge simply wouldn't have been able to facilitate the choreographed questioning of Vanezis regarding smears. 

Several weeks ago, several people pm'd me to state they could not believe that there were members trying to say the marks on the back of her hand were not nail gouges and were in fact just smears.  It cannot be a coincidence that the members who were denying the gouges - are all hardline guilters?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 23, 2017, 01:53:PM
I think you've misunderstood me.

Vanesiz knew then and knows to this day that Sheila took her own life. And tried to get that across to the court and Jury without showing conspicuous defiance to the authorities who put pressure on him. Either due to integrity or trying to cover his arse from any future inquest.

No I understood you perfectly.  That being said - he also cooperated with police to conceal her wounds - nicks, incisions, gouges, scrapes, abrasions.  Jeremy Bamber could not have been convicted if Sheila Caffell can be shown to have such wounds - as it would bring in to play the prospect of a fight between all three adults in the farmhouse. 

As I tried to imtimate before - perhaps he played a double game?  People are complex and some have consciences that gnaw at them.  Miller, for example, was in the thick of all the wrong doing - and yet apparently he became an advocate for human rights.  Private penance?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 23, 2017, 01:55:PM
I think you've misunderstood me.

Vanesiz knew then and knows to this day that Sheila took her own life. And tried to get that across to the court and Jury without showing conspicuous defiance to the authorities who put pressure on him. Either due to integrity or trying to cover his arse from any future inquest.
What I was agreeing to, I thought Vanezis gave a honest autopsy, how you interpret his autopsy is another thing, I didn't misunderstand you I meerley pointed out the autopsy was carried out when it was suspected murder suicide.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 23, 2017, 02:01:PM
Why would Vanezis and the police release these photos to trial, if, for one minute they contradicted or jeopardised their prosecution, it would have been quite simple to say, Sheila sustained cuts fighting Bamber off

Reading what's being said here by some -the vicious besmirching of the names of all those associated with Jeremy's conviction- I can only think they've been gripped by a virulent paranoia. Accusations of an expert witness, of no small standing, jeopardizing his future by falsifying notes and allegedly covering up/hiding from the jury the existence of potentially significant wounds whilst taking the trouble to highlight minor marks for ANY reason, let alone for NO reason, is beyond comprehension.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 23, 2017, 02:20:PM
Reading what's being said here by some -the vicious besmirching of the names of all those associated with Jeremy's conviction- I can only think they've been gripped by a virulent paranoia. Accusations of an expert witness, of no small standing, jeopardizing his future by falsifying notes and allegedly covering up/hiding from the jury the existence of potentially significant wounds whilst taking the trouble to highlight minor marks for ANY reason, let alone for NO reason, is beyond comprehension.

Jane, you are sarting to sound like you have stepped of an Enid Blyton story.  Five go mad in Tolleshunt D'Arcy

The local Vicar is a paragon of virtue (no sexual foibles - not even any saucy nun jokes).  The police constable cycles through the village keeping a watchful eye over any would be miscreants (outsiders).  Tea and iced buns in the afternoon etc.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 23, 2017, 02:28:PM
But that's the whole point isn't it.  We dont know how clear the photographs were at trial.  They cannot have been crystal clear close-ups - otherwise Drake and Arlidge simply wouldn't have been able to facilitate the choreographed questioning of Vanezis regarding smears. 

Several weeks ago, several people pm'd me to state they could not believe that there were members trying to say the marks on the back of her hand were not nail gouges and were in fact just smears.  It cannot be a coincidence that the members who were denying the gouges - are all hardline guilters?
Well credit due to the posters who can see what I and the jury and Vanezis and other posters fail to see.  So even though they cannot believe we cannot see them, please excuse me for passing them off for smears because it's not through thinking Bamber guilty.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 23, 2017, 02:28:PM
The 'case related photographs' thread on this forum has 40 pictures of Sheila. There are no scratches on her feet, legs, shoulders, arms, hands, neck & face.

After 32 years supporters are now saying the blood smears on her hand are scratches.

Some supporters agree there are no visible scratches in the photographs & claim they are all underneath her undamaged nightie.

The pathologist inspected Sheila minus her nightie & reported no scratches. He is now being accused of lying.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 23, 2017, 02:31:PM
Jane, you are sarting to sound like you have stepped of an Enid Blyton story.  Five go mad in Tolleshunt D'Arcy

The local Vicar is a paragon of virtue (no sexual foibles - not even any saucy nun jokes).  The police constable cycles through the village keeping a watchful eye over any would be miscreants (outsiders).  Tea and iced buns in the afternoon etc.

Then, as I fully accept that we're all coloured by our own frames of reference, I can only wonder at the dark, dirty and devious ones which may have coloured yours. I actually do know Vicars who are paragons of virtue and policemen I can trust. I'm truly sorry that your world is devoid of them.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 23, 2017, 02:33:PM
To be fair Vanesis has to be included in the industrial frame.

I just can't understand how it would have benefitted Bamber if he had said Sheila had scratches when the prosecution could display photos which would have discredited this.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 23, 2017, 03:05:PM
Well credit due to the posters who can see what I and the jury and Vanezis and other posters fail to see.  So even though they cannot believe we cannot see them, please excuse me for passing them off for smears because it's not through thinking Bamber guilty.

You cannot say the jurors failed to see - because you do not know what images they were shown.  They cannot have been shown clear close-up images of gouges.  This would have defeated the object of putting Bamber on trial in the first place. 

How does a smear related to a neck wound, start or end at a crescent-like incision?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 23, 2017, 03:11:PM
Then, as I fully accept that we're all coloured by our own frames of reference, I can only wonder at the dark, dirty and devious ones which may have coloured yours. I actually do know Vicars who are paragons of virtue and policemen I can trust. I'm truly sorry that your world is devoid of them.

I strongly suggest you read back over my posts regarding the police I have come across in my line of work.  I've had nothing but praise for them.

Since you shifted stance - all of a sudden the police - every last one of them - have become the salt of the earth.  Like we dont live in a world were coppers tell porkies and pathologists might be ambitious?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 23, 2017, 03:13:PM
June was shot up to 7 times in bed. Twice in the head, once in the throat, twice in the chest, once in the stomach & once in the knee.

If Sheila was so 'crazy' even Nevill couldn't control her, there is no way a woman shot 7 times would have any success scratching Sheila.

This claim is not going anywhere.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 23, 2017, 03:26:PM
I strongly suggest you read back over my posts regarding the police I have come across in my line of work.  I've had nothing but praise for them.

Since you shifted stance - all of a sudden the police - every last one of them - have become the salt of the earth.  Like we dont live in a world were coppers tell porkies and pathologists might be ambitious?


"LIKE we don't" but neither do we assume that they're all out for personal gain when they make decisions we don't agree with.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 23, 2017, 03:34:PM
What are the two small marks diagonally up from the section you have highlighted?  Presumably 'smears'?

Smears without any source adjacent to them or around them?

Any takers?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 23, 2017, 04:17:PM
But that's the whole point isn't it.  We dont know how clear the photographs were at trial.  They cannot have been crystal clear close-ups - otherwise Drake and Arlidge simply wouldn't have been able to facilitate the choreographed questioning of Vanezis regarding smears. 

Several weeks ago, several people pm'd me to state they could not believe that there were members trying to say the marks on the back of her hand were not nail gouges and were in fact just smears.  It cannot be a coincidence that the members who were denying the gouges - are all hardline guilters?

Why not when we're doing that now?

I would bet that the people who PM'd you are hard line innocent supporters and couple of fence sitters. Works both ways however, I'm not pretending not to see them, I don't see them and think this is all just a little hype. The evidence from Venezis's notes proves they aren't injuries.

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 23, 2017, 04:19:PM
I strongly suggest you read back over my posts regarding the police I have come across in my line of work.  I've had nothing but praise for them.

Since you shifted stance - all of a sudden the police - every last one of them - have become the salt of the earth.  Like we dont live in a world were coppers tell porkies and pathologists might be ambitious?

I have no reason to like the police, in fact someone close to me was fitted up by an unscrupulous member of the CID. However, that's one bad apple which wouldn't lead to the whole tree being chopped down.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 23, 2017, 04:20:PM
Any takers?

Post the picture you're referring to.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 23, 2017, 04:28:PM
Why not when we're doing that now?

I would bet that the people who PM'd you are hard line innocent supporters and couple of fence sitters. Works both ways however, I'm not pretending not to see them, I don't see them and think this is all just a little hype. The evidence from Venezis's notes proves they aren't injuries.

The evidence from the crime scene images contradicts Vanezis' testimony.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 23, 2017, 04:29:PM
Not sure why posters would PM Roch & say they believe the photographs show scratches.

They can quite easily agree on the main board.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 23, 2017, 04:30:PM
Post the picture you're referring to.

Follow the link back to David's post and then enlarge the image in question.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 23, 2017, 04:36:PM
The evidence from the crime scene images contradicts Vanezis' testimony.

In your unqualified opinion.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 23, 2017, 04:40:PM
In your unqualified opinion.

A gouge is a gouge. A scrape is a scrape.  An incision is an incision. A graze is a graze.  A nick is nick.  Broken skin is broken skin.  I don't need seven years to study medicine to have an opinion.  My mother as a nurse and my father was a doctor - does that count?  ;)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 23, 2017, 04:40:PM
Any takers?

It's just dried blood, from where? How would I know?  :-\ but again, they don't look like injuries.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 23, 2017, 04:42:PM
It's just dried blood, from where? How would I know?  :-\ but again, they don't look like injuries.

Because they can't look like injuries - because they're not allowed to be injuries.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 23, 2017, 04:54:PM
A gouge is a gouge. A scrape is scrape is a scrape. An incision is an incision. A graze is a graze. A nick is nick. Broken skin is broken skin.  I don't need seven years to study medicine to have an opinion. My mother as a nurse and my father was a doctor - does that count?  ;)

And Venezis would have been all too familiar with those terms and readily able to describe such injuries had they been present on her actual body at the time she was in front of him. He was well able to describe such injuries on Nevil. You don't need to study any kind of medicine but you should know the limitations of using photographic imagery to draw such conclusions, after all, we're looking at the same photographs but seeing very different things - that wouldn't be so if we were looking at the actual body of Sheila Cafell, we can't do that but Venezis did and he has no reason to lie - especially on the day of the autopsy!

We are BOTH influenced by what we already believe - you claim that us hard line 'guilters' are somehow deliberately denying that such injuries exist but that you and other hard line innocent supporters are somehow free from your own already held beliefs which; have no influence on what you are seeing. I have shown you Venezis's notes which he made DURING Sheila's autopsy and your only explanation for why he makes no mention of injuries to her arm and hand are that his notes must not be genuine?  ??? Could it not simply be that you're actually seeing what you want to see? Just like you're accusing others of doing?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 23, 2017, 04:55:PM
Because they can't look like injuries - because they're not allowed to be injuries.

Because they can only look like injuries - because you want them to be?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 23, 2017, 05:04:PM
Because they can't look like injuries - because they're not allowed to be injuries.

Roch
I am led to believe many more than you see the injuries and I would hazard a guess they have superior equipment for examining the injuries than you or me.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 23, 2017, 05:06:PM
And Venezis would have been all too familiar with those terms and readily able to describe such injuries had they been present on her actual body at the time she was in front of him. He was well able to describe such injuries on Nevil. You don't need to study any kind of medicine but you should know the limitations of using photographic imagery to draw such conclusions, after all, we're looking at the same photographs but seeing very different things - that wouldn't be so if we were looking at the actual body of Sheila Cafell, we can't do that but Venezis did and he has no reason to lie - especially on the day of the autopsy!

We are BOTH influenced by what we already believe - you claim that us hard line 'guilters' are somehow deliberately denying that such injuries exist but that you and other hard line innocent supporters are somehow free from your own already held beliefs which; have no influence on what you are seeing. I have shown you Venezis's notes which he made DURING Sheila's autopsy and your only explanation for why he makes no mention of injuries to her arm and hand are that his notes must not be genuine?  ??? Could it not simply be that you're actually seeing what you want to see? Just like you're accusing others of doing?

But, as yet, has given no credible explanation as to WHY a man of Vanezis' standing should want to lie. Here's a few suggestions A) He thought it might be fun, after a life of following rules? B) His assistant found out he'd been at the drugs cabinet and threatened to expose him if he didn't? -(doesn't answer what was in it for the assistant but it's ANOTHER conspirator to add to the list. C) He didn't like Jeremy? D) The police asked him to as a favour? I really can't think of any other reasons. This makes the suggestion even more unbelievable.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 23, 2017, 05:06:PM
June was shot up to 7 times in bed. Twice in the head, once in the throat, twice in the chest, once in the stomach & once in the knee.

If Sheila was so 'crazy' even Nevill couldn't control her, there is no way a woman shot 7 times would have any success scratching Sheila.

This claim is not going anywhere.

 ::)

If June was shot twice in the head whilst in bed how did she manage to get to the door?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 23, 2017, 05:16:PM
Roch
I am led to believe many more than you see the injuries and I would hazard a guess they have superior equipment for examining the injuries than you or me.

No one can examine any injuries - just photographs.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 23, 2017, 05:17:PM
Because they can only look like injuries - because you want them to be?

Really?  :)) If the two small marks in question are not injuries - then what are they and how where they formed?  If these marks where on any other person, other than Sheila Caffell, you would be saying they were some kind of wound.  But because they are on Sheila Caffell's arm, you can't bring your self to do it.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 23, 2017, 05:22:PM
Really?  :)) If the two small marks in question are not injuries - then what are they and how where they formed?  If these marks where on any other person, other than Sheila Caffell, you would be saying they were some kind of wound.  But because they are on Sheila Caffell's arm, you can't bring your self to do it.

When I have asked you to explain things you have told me it's not up to you to do so. Given that I was not at the scene nor a fly on the wall, I couldn't possibly tell you how dried blood came to rest there. But please don't tell me what I would or would do in other circumstances - by saying that you are suggesting that I am lying. Sorry I can't see what you see but I'm not into conspiracy theories so don't see liars around every corner!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 23, 2017, 05:23:PM
No I understood you perfectly.  That being said - he also cooperated with police to conceal her wounds - nicks, incisions, gouges, scrapes, abrasions.  Jeremy Bamber could not have been convicted if Sheila Caffell can be shown to have such wounds - as it would bring in to play the prospect of a fight between all three adults in the farmhouse. 

As I tried to imtimate before - perhaps he played a double game?  People are complex and some have consciences that gnaw at them.  Miller, for example, was in the thick of all the wrong doing - and yet apparently he became an advocate for human rights.  Private penance?

Vanezis testimony contradicts a fight with Nevill. It was assumed to have taken place because the police did not admit to creating the mess as it would contradict Julie's testimony.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 23, 2017, 05:26:PM
Sorry I can't see what you see but I'm not into conspiracy theories so don't see liars around every corner!

Care to remind us of your position on the sound moderator?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on July 23, 2017, 05:28:PM
Vanezis testimony contradicts a fight with Nevill. It was assumed to have taken place because the police did not admit to creating the mess as it would contradict Julie's testimony.
How can Vanezis possibly know to what extent there was a struggle that morning?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 23, 2017, 05:31:PM
::)

If June was shot twice in the head whilst in bed how did she manage to get to the door?

Because they were bullets for shooting rabbits. However there was no possibility she would be able to give a 'crazy' Sheila scratches after receiving 7 of them. Maybe crawl a few feet. Where was Nevill ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 23, 2017, 05:37:PM
Because they were bullets for shooting rabbits. However there was no possibility she would be able to give a 'crazy' Sheila scratches. Where was Nevill ?

It does not matter how the ammunition was marketed. Both bullets went deep into the brain, the same make and model bullet that killed Sheila instantly via entering her brain.

So I shall again. If June was shot twice in the head whilst in bed, how did she manage to get to the door?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 23, 2017, 05:42:PM
It does not matter how the ammunition was marketed. Both bullets went deep into the brain, the same make and model bullet that killed Sheila instantly via entering her brain.

So I shall again. If June was shot twice in the head whilst in bed, how did she manage to get to the door?

There is no possibility of a woman shot up to seven times while asleep bed, in the head, throat, chest, knee & stomach giving a 'crazy' Sheila scratches. Which is why the pathologist said there was none.

June crawled a few feet. Bamber may have shot her once again when he returned upstairs.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on July 23, 2017, 05:54:PM
It does not matter how the ammunition was marketed. Both bullets went deep into the brain, the same make and model bullet that killed Sheila instantly via entering her brain.

So I shall again. If June was shot twice in the head whilst in bed, how did she manage to get to the door?
But there were injuries to lower neck, right forearm, chest and knee. The head injuries could have come later.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 23, 2017, 06:10:PM
Care to remind us of your position on the sound moderator?

I wouldn't care to respond to anything you ask me.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 23, 2017, 06:30:PM
49. DC Hammersley, the Scenes of Crimes Officer placed plastic bags over Sheila Caffell's hands and feet before her body was removed from the farmhouse. He saw some blood staining to the back of the right hand, but apart from that the hands, to his eye were clean and the nails intact. The deceased's feet were also free from blood staining and from any debris such as sugar.


So it was just a smudge of blood on the back of Sheila's hand.

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 23, 2017, 06:31:PM
How can Vanezis possibly know to what extent there was a struggle that morning?
Steve, did Colin visit Sheila in the mortuary, does he mention any other injuries to Sheila's hands?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 23, 2017, 06:33:PM
49. DC Hammersley, the Scenes of Crimes Officer placed plastic bags over Sheila Caffell's hands and feet before her body was removed from the farmhouse. He saw some blood staining to the back of the right hand, but apart from that the hands, to his eye were clean and the nails intact. The deceased's feet were also free from blood staining and from any debris such as sugar.


So it was just a smudge of blood on the back of Sheila's hand.
Thats another one who must have been in the industrial frame as well. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Lucy522 on July 23, 2017, 06:35:PM
Steve, did Colin visit Sheila in the mortuary, does he mention any other injuries to Sheila's hands?

Hi justice, no he didn't, only Julie saw them
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 23, 2017, 06:38:PM
Hi justice, no he didn't, only Julie saw them
Ok thanks Lucy, I didn't know if he paid his respects before burial?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 23, 2017, 06:41:PM
49. DC Hammersley, the Scenes of Crimes Officer placed plastic bags over Sheila Caffell's hands and feet before her body was removed from the farmhouse. He saw some blood staining to the back of the right hand, but apart from that the hands, to his eye were clean and the nails intact. The deceased's feet were also free from blood staining and from any debris such as sugar.


So it was just a smudge of blood on the back of Sheila's hand.

Obviously he lied also  ::)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 23, 2017, 06:45:PM
No one can examine any injuries - just photographs.

Sorry I should have said photographs.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on July 23, 2017, 06:50:PM
Steve, did Colin visit Sheila in the mortuary, does he mention any other injuries to Sheila's hands?
No I don't think so. There's no mention of it in the books. He was probably in too much shock to register anything.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 23, 2017, 06:53:PM
No I don't think so. There's no mention of it in the books. He was probably in too much shock to register anything.
Ok thanks Steve.

This is Hammersley's court statement, for those who think they did not have photos of the hands at trial, they even had enlargements.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5817.0;attach=37846

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5817.0;attach=37847

But I suppose innocent posters have  a much clearer picture than what was offered at trial?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 23, 2017, 07:04:PM
Obviously Bill's suggestion that the back of Sheila's hand was scratched, has been dismissed.

Many posters believe the photo's show it was a smudge. Vanezis says there were no scratches on Sheila. And the COA & Hammersley say it was just a blood mark.

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 23, 2017, 07:06:PM
Onto Bill's suggestion he has seen pictures of 28 scratches on Sheila. Which must be under her undamaged nightdress.

Once Bill posts the pictures of course.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on July 23, 2017, 07:16:PM
Ok thanks Steve.

This is Hammersley's court statement, for those who think they did not have photos of the hands at trial, they even had enlargements.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5817.0;attach=37846

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5817.0;attach=37847

But I suppose innocent posters have  a much clearer picture than what was offered at trial?
So I'm assuming the jewellery was a ring, which was taken from her finger? When did this occur?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 23, 2017, 07:26:PM
So I'm assuming the jewellery was a ring, which was taken from her finger? When did this occur?
I can only think the finger/hand was photographed twice before being put into a bag, one with the ring on, the other with the ring off?  Or it was photographed again in the mortuary, it's within the same day anyway Steve.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 23, 2017, 08:58:PM
Obviously Bill's suggestion that the back of Sheila's hand was scratched, has been dismissed.

Many posters believe the photo's show it was a smudge. Vanezis says there were no scratches on Sheila. And the COA & Hammersley say it was just a blood mark.
Here is another one who says it's blood staining.  Professor Herbert Leon McDonnell

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=264.0;attach=20300;image
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 23, 2017, 08:58:PM
How can Vanezis possibly know to what extent there was a struggle that morning?


I've already explained this numerous times.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8533.0.html (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8533.0.html)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 23, 2017, 09:08:PM
Ok thanks Steve.

This is Hammersley's court statement, for those who think they did not have photos of the hands at trial, they even had enlargements.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5817.0;attach=37846

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5817.0;attach=37847

But I suppose innocent posters have  a much clearer picture than what was offered at trial?

Can I please ask why you keep going on about photos at trial regarding Sheila's hand/s.  You yourself were allowed a close-up view of Sheila's right hand on this forum.  Your response was to launch in to attacks and rail against the person who allowed you to see the image.   Why do you prefer to hang off the back of Hammersley's word - instead of just using your own eyes to view the image in question?   :-\
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 23, 2017, 09:16:PM
Ok thanks Steve.

This is Hammersley's court statement, for those who think they did not have photos of the hands at trial, they even had enlargements.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5817.0;attach=37846

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5817.0;attach=37847

But I suppose innocent posters have  a much clearer picture than what was offered at trial?

Indeed.

Having a long nail on one thumb with a much shorter nail on the other with the rear nail plate white on one finger and red on the other is not by most standards well manicured.

The claim that her nails were perfect come from same people that claim her feet were spotless yet the photos of her feet contradict this.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 23, 2017, 09:17:PM
Here is another one who says it's blood staining.  Professor Herbert Leon McDonnell

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=264.0;attach=20300;image

It doesn't refer to the back of Sheila's right hand.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 23, 2017, 09:19:PM
Obviously he lied also  ::)

Wasn't there questions about whether he was actually at the scene?  I can't remember whether this was resolved.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Lucy522 on July 23, 2017, 09:20:PM
Ok thanks Lucy, I didn't know if he paid his respects before burial?

No he didn't see Sheila or the boys at all, x
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 23, 2017, 09:24:PM
But, as yet, has given no credible explanation as to WHY a man of Vanezis' standing should want to lie.

A credible explanation was given here: http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8513.0.html

He probably didn't want to lie.  He also probably didn't want to impede the police from making sure a multiple murderer didn't get 'off the hook'. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 23, 2017, 09:25:PM
Onto Bill's suggestion he has seen pictures of 28 scratches on Sheila. Which must be under her undamaged nightdress.

Once Bill posts the pictures of course.

Adam it was discussed on the forum that a blood stain was on the edge of the cereal bowl at the breakfast table and it seemed it was the blood from Sheila's right thumb at that time Lookout had already spotted the marks on Sheila's right hand she often posted in relation to this but she was scoffed at and she was right after all she spotted other things and it seems she was right again
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 23, 2017, 09:25:PM
No he didn't see Sheila or the boys at all, x
Thanks Lucy, rather surprised at that, unless he was advised not to?  Having said that, whenever I've visited the Chapel of rest I've had it on my mind for weeks, it's not nice.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 23, 2017, 09:28:PM
Thats another one who must have been in the industrial frame as well.

Was he at the scene?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on July 23, 2017, 09:30:PM
Indeed.

Having a long nail on one thumb with a much shorter nail on the other with the rear nail plate white on one finger and red on the other is not by most standards well manicured.

The claim that her nails were perfect come from same people that claim her feet were spotless yet the photos of her feet contradict this.
They are hardly hands which one could surmise have been in contact with another person either.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 23, 2017, 09:34:PM
I wouldn't care to respond to anything you ask me.

Grievances notwithstanding, you can hardly pick and choose yourself, which aspect of the case is a 'conspiracy theory' within your own stance - if you are going to use that very term in a derogatory manner against 'supporters'.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 23, 2017, 09:37:PM
Can I please ask why you keep going on about photos at trial regarding Sheila's hand/s.  You yourself were allowed a close-up view of Sheila's right hand on this forum.  Your response was to launch in to attacks and rail against the person who allowed you to see the image.   Why do you prefer to hang off the back of Hammersley's word - instead of just using your own eyes to view the image in question?   :-\
Because my eyes tell me it's blood smearing, this is what the forum is about discussing evidence and dismissing evidence, if there is a way forward with your new evidence so be it, but what I've seen there isn't, don't put your theories on here if you don't want them to be discussed.  Or do you want everyone to dismiss clear evidence, that without a shadow of doubt, backed up with numerous first hand account witnesses who clearly back my eyes against your eyes.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 23, 2017, 09:39:PM
When I have asked you to explain things you have told me it's not up to you to do so. Given that I was not at the scene nor a fly on the wall, I couldn't possibly tell you how dried blood came to rest there. But please don't tell me what I would or would do in other circumstances - by saying that you are suggesting that I am lying. Sorry I can't see what you see but I'm not into conspiracy theories so don't see liars around every corner!

But according to you / Vanezis et al, any dried blood upon her, is supposed to be from her neck wounds -  transfered as 'runs' or 'smears'.   Are you of the opinion that these two small marks (that David inadvertantly pointed out) are the same?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 23, 2017, 09:42:PM
Because my eyes tell me it's blood smearing, this is what the forum is about discussing evidence and dismissing evidence, if there is a way forward with your new evidence so be it, but what I've seen there isn't, don't put your theories on here if you don't want them to be discussed.  Or do you want everyone to dismiss clear evidence, that without a shadow of doubt, backed up with numerous first hand account witnesses who clearly back my eyes against your eyes.

Then as I have already asked - please tell me which kind of transferred smear begins or ends with a crescent-like incision?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 23, 2017, 09:51:PM
It doesn't refer to the back of Sheila's right hand.
No he refers to the staining or smears on the radius area of the arm between the elbow and wrist.  his eyes see same as me staining.  This being your first picture for discussion in your belief them being grazes/ cuts scratches etc.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 23, 2017, 09:58:PM
Then as I have already asked - please tell me which kind of transferred smear begins or ends with a crescent-like incision?
Roch, who knows what happened in the final execution of Sheila, how she positioned her hand after one shot, how Bamber position her hand to replica suicide, I'm not qualified to judge how blood runs/stops etc, I'm not really qualified to study photos if it comes to that, but my eyes tell me it's blood smearing and I cannot see others who are 100 times more qualified than me making it up, I'm sorry if I thought for one minute they were scratches I would say so.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 23, 2017, 10:03:PM
Roch, who knows what happened in the final execution of Sheila, how she positioned her hand after one shot, how Bamber position her hand to replica suicide, I'm not qualified to judge how blood runs/stops etc, I'm not really qualified to study photos if it comes to that, but my eyes tell me it's blood smearing and I cannot see others who are 100 times more qualified than me making it up, I'm sorry if I thought for one minute they were scratches I would say so.

OK, thanks for your candour.  I appreciate it.  You know what it is though -  I get the feeling that if I backed down an accepted defeat - and conceded they must be smears... privately, some of you wouldnt accept it. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Lucy522 on July 23, 2017, 10:19:PM
Thanks Lucy, rather surprised at that, unless he was advised not to?  Having said that, whenever I've visited the Chapel of rest I've had it on my mind for weeks, it's not nice.

In his book he said he wanted to remember them all how they were, which I guess is understandable, he soent.some time in church with the boys on the day of the funeral and read them a story when the coffins were closed,
Doesn't bear thinking about:-(
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 23, 2017, 10:27:PM
Roch, the last thing I would want was for you to back down, you love it and I love it.  It's great your bringing new topics to debate for us all in between my games of chess.  The great thing about debating on a forum, you can switch off anytime you want.  Your right, if you backed down and said they were smears I wouldn't believe you and I would argue they were grazes ha ha.

Roch's simply trying to run with Bill's unsourced claim.

I don't recall anyone ever saying before on the forum Sheila had abrasions on her body. The 40 photo's don't show it. And the COA, Hammersley, Vanezis & Mcdonnell don't mention any.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 23, 2017, 10:31:PM
In his book he said he wanted to remember them all how they were, which I guess is understandable, he soent.some time in church with the boys on the day of the funeral and read them a story when the coffins were closed,
Doesn't bear thinking about:-(
So sad Lucy, I don't know how he coped with it.  I watched the Sarah Payne documentary the other day, I've had my problems over the last few years but it's nothing to what they have had to endure.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 23, 2017, 10:39:PM
June crawled a few feet. Bamber may have shot her once again when he returned upstairs.

You cannot crawl once you are dead.

The police's own documents note two "episodes" of gunfire in the main bedroom. Plus the lab found June's AK-2.1 blood enzymes on the carpet and the sock on the other side of the room.

Like you say, they don't make false evidence  ;)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 23, 2017, 10:50:PM
You cannot crawl once you are dead.

The police's own documents note two "episodes" of gunfire in the main bedroom. Plus the lab found June's AK-2.1 blood enzymes on the carpet and the sock on the other side of the room.

Like you say, they don't make false evidence  ;)


43. 'Mrs Bamber was bare footed and dressed in a nightdress. She had received seven gunshot wounds, of which one to her forehead and one to the right side of the head would have caused death very quickly. She also suffered shots to the right side of the lower part of her neck, the right forearm, two injuries to the right side of the chest and to the right knee. There was a great deal of blood on her body and clothing and from its pattern, it appeared that at some stage of the attack she had been in an upright position.'

Ok. June was perhaps shot 5 times in bed. In the throat, forearm, knee & twice in the chest.  Which explains why her bed is covered in blood.

There is no possibility June then started scratching a 'crazy' Sheila who a man 8 stone heavier & 9 inches taller couldn't control.

Anyway the optimistic scratch marks claim made by Bill has been dismissed. There are too many sources & photo's refuting this.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on July 23, 2017, 10:52:PM
You cannot crawl once you are dead.

The police's own documents note two "episodes" of gunfire in the main bedroom. Plus the lab found June's AK-2.1 blood enzymes on the carpet and the sock on the other side of the room.

Like you say, they don't make false evidence  ;)
Wasn't there an advert in the 1980s by Norwich Union with the slogan: "We don't make a drama out of a crisis"..

Jeremy shot his parents initially in the bedroom, then on return shot June between the eyes.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Lucy522 on July 23, 2017, 10:54:PM
So sad Lucy, I don't know how he coped with it.  I watched the Sarah Payne documentary the other day, I've had my problems over the last few years but it's nothing to what they have had to endure.
I've got it on record but not emotionally ready to watch it right now lol, little boy blue had me and the hubby in tears, im sure with every baby I've had I've turned more and more emotional!!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 23, 2017, 11:10:PM

Wait while you've got Grandchildren it's even worse Lucy.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 23, 2017, 11:22:PM
You cannot crawl once you are dead.

The police's own documents note two "episodes" of gunfire in the main bedroom. Plus the lab found June's AK-2.1 blood enzymes on the carpet and the sock on the other side of the room.

Like you say, they don't make false evidence  ;)

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8415.msg401067.html#msg401067

You're own diagrammed thread has June getting shot 5 times in bed.

Obviously there was no possibility of June scratching Sheila after these shots.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 07:34:AM
Wasn't there an advert in the 1980s by Norwich Union with the slogan: "We don't make a drama out of a crisis"..

Jeremy shot his parents initially in the bedroom, then on return shot June between the eyes.

Jeremy Bamber shot no-one - Neville Bambers blood type 'O',  the twins blood type 'O', and June Bambers blood type 'A', were all present upon Sheila Caffells nightdress, lab' exhibit 19..

Nightdress 'A' 301
Control
Nightdress 'A' 2+02
Control
JF192 'O' 003
BB9 'O' 003
BB12 'A' 2+03
BB16 'A' 2+02
BB20 'O' 003
BB21 'O' 002+
BB25 'O' 003


The blood expert even signed the record off as being true! On the 6th September 1985! This was the day before Jeremy's first arrest, and explains why after his arrest he was released without being charged in connection with the murders! It also explains why DCS Kineally promptly reported to top brass that he was satisfied that Sheila was responsible for shooting the other four victims dead, and then, hem, hem, hem, she shot herself! The document I have posted up was not disclosed to the defence during the trial! It was also not made available to the defence blood expert, or mentioned to the jury! Cops and CPS, and their blood expert John Hayward all knew that arguably the blood from all five victims (including Sheila herself) was found to be present upon the nightdress being worn at the time she died! The blood of the other victims was found on her nightdress because she shot them all..

This was why after his first arrest cops had to release Jeremy without charge, because cops knew it was compelling evidence in support of Sheila Caffell being the killer of the other four victims!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 08:03:AM
This was why the silencer evidence became so pivotal in Jeremy Bambers re-arrest, prosecution, conviction and sentence. Relatives and cops introduced the silencer evidence on 11th September 1985, with blood in it, and paint on it! At the same time, they got rid of the lab' records which show that it was contaminated with Neville Bambers 'O' type blood, the twins 'O' type blood, and June Bambers 'A' type blood!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 24, 2017, 08:10:AM
Can I please ask why you keep going on about photos at trial regarding Sheila's hand/s.  You yourself were allowed a close-up view of Sheila's right hand on this forum.  Your response was to launch in to attacks and rail against the person who allowed you to see the image.   Why do you prefer to hang off the back of Hammersley's word - instead of just using your own eyes to view the image in question?   :-\
I can understand your frustration, but at the end of the day all we have to go on is the evidence available to us, for Jeremy to win an appeal based on this evidence, he would have to prove it wasn't available to defence and people have lied in their evidence and covered up the fact that the blood smearing was infact scratches.  Going over court transcripts testimonies and photo's available is what the CCRC would do anyway, forget the part what I can see, it doesn't matter what I can see, it's what people that matters can see.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 08:26:AM
This was why the silencer evidence became so pivotal in Jeremy Bambers re-arrest, prosecution, conviction and sentence. Relatives and cops introduced the silencer evidence on 11th September 1985, with blood in it, and paint on it! At the same time, they got rid of the lab' records which show that it was contaminated with Neville Bambers 'O' type blood, the twins 'O' type blood, and June Bambers 'A' type blood!

This analysis of the blood on the nightdress worn by Sheila on the night of the shootings contradicts the suggestion that the blood from the silencer was unique to her, unless someone deliberately contaminated it with her blood!  This is because of the blood types found to be present on her nightdress supports the fact that she did shoot the other four victims! Blood from the victims that she shot spattered back, spurted, or dripped on her nightdress where it was discovered on the 6th September 1985! With this in mind, and Sheila being the shooter of the other four victims, how then could she have shot herself with that silencer fitted to the end of the family owned anshuzt rifle, and permit her blood to be forced back into the end of the silencer, killing herself and then unscrewing the silencer and managing to take it all the way downstairs to conceal it in the gun cupboard in the den, and then go back upstairs and lay down dead again on the bedroom floor with the silencerless rifle in her possession? She couldn't and she didn't! Sheila Caffell did not shoot herself! Jeremy Bamber did not shoot her! The police did!

Coming back to the silencer, who supposedly found it and when the key blood group evidence came to light!

DS 'Stan' Jones returned to the farmhouse during the late morning of 7 August 1985, from Jeremy's cottage where both he and DC 'Mick' Clark had been taking Jeremy's first witness statement! Jones took possession of a silencer on that occasion, which was initially labelled 'SBJ/1'! He eventually handed this silencer to DCI 'Taff' Jones who retained it on top of his desk at Witham police station until evening of 9th August 1985, at which stage Jones and Jones took the silencer in question back to the farmhouse and left it in the gun cupboard! What cops didn't appreciate however, was that there existed two identical looking Parker hale silencers at the farmhouse, one belonging to Anthony Pargeters Bruno bolt action rifle, and a second one belonging to Neville Bambers Anshuzt semi automatic rifle! The only difference between both was the internal design including one of the two silencers having 17 baffles, a flat washer, and screw thread Knut! The other had fewer baffles! The former belonged to Anthony Pargeter, the latter one to Neville Bamber! The first had been purchased by Anthony Pargeter in 1980, and the second purchased by Neville Bamber in late November 1984!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 24, 2017, 08:32:AM
I can understand your frustration, but at the end of the day all we have to go on is the evidence available to us, for Jeremy to win an appeal based on this evidence, he would have to prove it wasn't available to defence and people have lied in their evidence and covered up the fact that the blood smearing was infact scratches.  Going over court transcripts testimonies and photo's available is what the CCRC would do anyway, forget the part what I can see, it doesn't matter what I can see, it's what people that matters can see.

In other words - EP can stretch the truth by claiming that images were made available at trial, which were of sufficient clarity to allow the defence to see the wounds and challenge accordingly.  The CCRC will take their word (as they always do in this case) and reject any submissions regarding this topic.  This amounts to keeping him in prison 'on a technicality'.

They can keep him in on a technicality - but what they will not be able to do is stop people at large from learning that:

Sheila Caffell had fight injuries

Nevill Bamber had fight injuries

June Bamber had fight injuries

Jeremy Bamber had no injuries whatsoever.

JB can die in prison.. but people will draw their own conclusions.  This is not a case that paints the authorities in a good light.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 08:43:AM
This analysis of the blood on the nightdress worn by Sheila on the night of the shootings contradicts the suggestion that the blood from the silencer was unique to her, unless someone deliberately contaminated it with her blood!  This is because of the blood types found to be present on her nightdress supports the fact that she did shoot the other four victims! Blood from the victims that she shot spattered back, spurted, or dripped on her nightdress where it was discovered on the 6th September 1985! With this in mind, and Sheila being the shooter of the other four victims, how then could she have shot herself with that silencer fitted to the end of the family owned anshuzt rifle, and permit her blood to be forced back into the end of the silencer, killing herself and then unscrewing the silencer and managing to take it all the way downstairs to conceal it in the gun cupboard in the den, and then go back upstairs and lay down dead again on the bedroom floor with the silencerless rifle in her possession? She couldn't and she didn't! Sheila Caffell did not shoot herself! Jeremy Bamber did not shoot her! The police did!

Coming back to the silencer, who supposedly found it and when the key blood group evidence came to light!

DS 'Stan' Jones returned to the farmhouse during the late morning of 7 August 1985, from Jeremy's cottage where both he and DC 'Mick' Clark had been taking Jeremy's first witness statement! Jones took possession of a silencer on that occasion, which was initially labelled 'SBJ/1'! He eventually handed this silencer to DCI 'Taff' Jones who retained it on top of his desk at Witham police station until evening of 9th August 1985, at which stage Jones and Jones took the silencer in question back to the farmhouse and left it in the gun cupboard! What cops didn't appreciate however, was that there existed two identical looking Parker hale silencers at the farmhouse, one belonging to Anthony Pargeters Bruno bolt action rifle, and a second one belonging to Neville Bambers Anshuzt semi automatic rifle! The only difference between both was the internal design including one of the two silencers having 17 baffles, a flat washer, and screw thread Knut! The other had fewer baffles! The former belonged to Anthony Pargeter, the latter one to Neville Bamber! The first had been purchased by Anthony Pargeter in 1980, and the second purchased by Neville Bamber in late November 1984!

On 10 August 1985, the relatives recovered one of the two silencers!

This was subsequently collected by DS 'Stan' Jones from 'Peter' Eaton on the evening of 12 August 1985! On the following morning, Jones gave the silencer to DI 'Ron' Cook, after being advised to do so by PI 'Bob' Miller! Cook took possession of the said silencer, and noticing that it did not have an exhibit label, he duly attached one, and gave it the exhibit reference of 'SJ/1'! Cook explained to the COLP investigators years later, that the reason he originally gave it the exhibit reference of 'SJ/1' was because he didn't know that 'Stan' Jones had a middle name, and although Jones offered him no explanation regarding where the silencer was from, Cook remembered that on the first morning of the police investigation that DS Jones had returned to the farmhouse (before midday) after the second SOCO team had taken control of the scene (at around 10 am) and he had taken possession of a silencer! Cook therefore thought it was that silencer, and that 'Stan' Jones was the finder!

On 11th September 1985, relatives found the second silencer at the farmhouse, (this would later be referred to as a 'Sound Moderator' to distinguish it from the other identical silencer) concealed in the same gun cupboard as the other one! This was duly handed over to DC Oakey by Ann Eaton on that same date! It was provisionally given the exhibit reference of 'AE/1', was subsequently altered to 'CAE/1', and was eventually referred to as exhibit 'DRB/1'...
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 24, 2017, 08:44:AM
I can understand your frustration, but at the end of the day all we have to go on is the evidence available to us, for Jeremy to win an appeal based on this evidence, he would have to prove it wasn't available to defence and people have lied in their evidence and covered up the fact that the blood smearing was infact scratches.  Going over court transcripts testimonies and photo's available is what the CCRC would do anyway, forget the part what I can see, it doesn't matter what I can see, it's what people that matters can see.

AHH! The voice of sweet reason. It matters, not a JOT, what we, here, on this forum see -or believe we can see. We witter on about a phone call from Nevill to the police, -always bearing in mind that as negatives can't be proved, the police can't prove they DIDN'T receive a call from him- and about how it "wuz the fuzz wot dun it" to Sheila, and more recently -and reminiscent of the visions of Our Lady at Lourdes- Sheila is said to bear wounds only visible to believers, and which remain concealed to others. As Justice SO sensibly and reasonably says "..................forget the part what I can see, it doesn't matter what I can see, it's what people that matters can see".
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 24, 2017, 08:47:AM
45. Dr Vanezis gave evidence that there was no evidence of any other mark or injury to Sheila Caffell's body such as might be suffered during a fight or in a scuffle.

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 08:50:AM
On 10 August 1985, the relatives recovered one of the two silencers!

This was subsequently collected by DS 'Stan' Jones from 'Peter' Eaton on the evening of 12 August 1985! On the following morning, Jones gave the silencer to DI 'Ron' Cook, after being advised to do so by PI 'Bob' Miller! Cook took possession of the said silencer, and noticing that it did not have an exhibit label, he duly attached one, and gave it the exhibit reference of 'SJ/1'! Cook explained to the COLP investigators years later, that the reason he originally gave it the exhibit reference of 'SJ/1' was because he didn't know that 'Stan' Jones had a middle name, and although Jones offered him no explanation regarding where the silencer was from, Cook remembered that on the first morning of the police investigation that DS Jones had returned to the farmhouse (before midday) after the second SOCO team had taken control of the scene (at around 10 am) and he had taken possession of a silencer! Cook therefore thought it was that silencer, and that 'Stan' Jones was the finder!

On 11th September 1985, relatives found the second silencer at the farmhouse, (this would later be referred to as a 'Sound Moderator' to distinguish it from the other identical silencer) concealed in the same gun cupboard as the other one! This was duly handed over to DC Oakey by Ann Eaton on that same date! It was provisionally given the exhibit reference of 'AE/1', was subsequently altered to 'CAE/1', and was eventually referred to as exhibit 'DRB/1'.

On 14 September 1985, DS Davidson (SOCO) and DS Eastwood (SOCO) were tasked with fingerprinting the 'Sound Moderator' ('AE/1', 'CAE/1', 'DRB/1')..
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 24, 2017, 08:52:AM
147. The precise sequence of the killings was unclear. June Bamber was shot whilst still lying in bed but had managed to get up and walk a few steps before she collapsed and died by the main bedroom door.

Nevill Bamber was also shot in the bedroom but was able to get downstairs into the kitchen where there was a violent struggle before he was overwhelmed and then shot a number of times in the head.

The children had been shot in their beds as they slept.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 24, 2017, 08:53:AM
In other words - EP can stretch the truth by claiming that images were made available at trial, which were of sufficient clarity to allow the defence to see the wounds and challenge accordingly.  The CCRC will take their word (as they always do in this case) and reject any submissions regarding this topic.  This amounts to keeping him in prison 'on a technicality'.

They can keep him in on a technicality - but what they will not be able to do is stop people at large from learning that:

Sheila Caffell had fight injuries

Nevill Bamber had fight injuries

June Bamber had fight injuries

Jeremy Bamber had no injuries whatsoever.

JB can die in prison.. but people will draw their own conclusions.  This is not a case that paints the authorities in a good light.
Im sure, if the images you or Bill have and they wasn't available at trial, will have to be looked at and if without a shadow of doubt show scratches, this then could form a basis and would cause concern.  I personally feel that the photo's were available at trial and the evidence was discussed and it's become even more evident reading court transcripts.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 08:56:AM
On 14 September 1985, DS Davidson (SOCO) and DS Eastwood (SOCO) were tasked with fingerprinting the 'Sound Moderator' ('AE/1', 'CAE/1', 'DRB/1')..

On 20th September 1985, the 'Sound Moderator' was submitted to the lab' to be checked for blood and fibers!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 24, 2017, 08:56:AM
AHH! The voice of sweet reason. It matters, not a JOT, what we, here, on this forum see -or believe we can see. We witter on about a phone call from Nevill to the police, -always bearing in mind that as negatives can't be proved, the police can't prove they DIDN'T receive a call from him- and about how it "wuz the fuzz wot dun it" to Sheila, and more recently -and reminiscent of the visions of Our Lady at Lourdes- Sheila is said to bear wounds only visible to believers, and which remain concealed to others. As Justice SO sensibly and reasonably says "..................forget the part what I can see, it doesn't matter what I can see, it's what people that matters can see".
Why thanks Jane, coming from my tutor has made my day.  I've been painting pictures in my sleep xx  ;)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 24, 2017, 08:57:AM
256. The issue of the absence of sugar on Sheila's feet was of minimal significance in the trial. In the summing up all the references to Sheila Caffell's feet were to the absence of blood rather than sugar. In the prosecution case summary it was said:

"The only blood to be found on the body was that of Sheila Caffell nor was there any debris or blood on the soles of her feet" and in their closing speech: "Compare Sheila to June. June is covered in blood, blood on her feet".

------------

I know supporters will put up a picture of a foot. With barely visible red marks. But the COA is saying June & her feet were covered in blood. Although she only walked a few steps. Sheila wasn't although she had travelled around the house.

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 24, 2017, 08:57:AM
Im sure, if the images you or Bill have and they wasn't available at trial, will have to be looked at and if without a shadow of doubt show scratches, this then could form a basis and would cause concern.  I personally feel that the photo's were available at trial and the evidence was discussed and it's become even more evident reading court transcripts.

Mike used to claim the images used at trial were poor quality - I do not know where he got that information from.  Mike - if you are reading this - can you elaborate?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 09:01:AM
The 'Sound Moderator' ('DRB/1') was not even present at Huntingdon Lab' when blood was supposed to have been found inside it on 12 September 1985, because as the official document shows it did not get sent to the lab' until 20 September 1985! So where did the flake of blood come from which the prosecutions blood expert analysed on 12th, 13th, 18th and 19th September 1985?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 24, 2017, 09:02:AM
AHH! The voice of sweet reason. It matters, not a JOT, what we, here, on this forum see -or believe we can see. We witter on about a phone call from Nevill to the police, -always bearing in mind that as negatives can't be proved, the police can't prove they DIDN'T receive a call from him- and about how it "wuz the fuzz wot dun it" to Sheila, and more recently -and reminiscent of the visions of Our Lady at Lourdes- Sheila is said to bear wounds only visible to believers, and which remain concealed to others. As Justice SO sensibly and reasonably says "..................forget the part what I can see, it doesn't matter what I can see, it's what people that matters can see".

The wounds were not only visible to believers.  So you can put that claim in the trash for starters.  And I suggest that if you cant tell what a fingernail gouge looks like on somebody's hand - then you should try and explain how a neck wound, spurting copious amounts of blood, can cause a smear on the back of a hand, right next to a crescent shaped incision?  You cannot explain it and you will not explain it - that being said - can you please spare us from reading more of your drivel about it?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 09:05:AM
The 'Sound Moderator' ('DRB/1') was not even present at Huntingdon Lab' when blood was supposed to have been found inside it on 12 September 1985, because as the official document shows it did not get sent to the lab' until 20 September 1985! So where did the flake of blood come from which the prosecutions blood expert analysed on 12th, 13th, 18th and 19th September 1985?

I do not believe that the first silencer ('SBJ/1', 'SJ/1) was returned to the lab' on 30 August 1985, under an exhibit reference of 'DB/1'. I believe a flake of blood was submitted in its place! This being the same flake of blood the expert examined on the aforementioned dates!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 24, 2017, 09:06:AM
The wounds were not only visible to believers.  So you can put that claim in the trash for starters.  And I suggest that if you cant tell what a fingernail gouge looks like on somebody's hand - then you should try and explain how a neck wound, spurting copious amounts of blood, can cause a smear on the back of a hand, right next to a crescent shaped incision?  You cannot explain it and you will not explain it - that being said - can you please spare us from reading more of your drivel about it?

Hmm! Methinks I touched a nerve ;)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 24, 2017, 09:08:AM
Im sure, if the images you or Bill have and they wasn't available at trial, will have to be looked at and if without a shadow of doubt show scratches, this then could form a basis and would cause concern.  I personally feel that the photo's were available at trial and the evidence was discussed and it's become even more evident reading court transcripts.

If it was available at trial it can still be used via arguing ineffective counsel.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 24, 2017, 09:11:AM
Hmm! Methinks I touched a nerve ;)

No you don't  ;)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 24, 2017, 09:12:AM
Hmm! Methinks I touched a nerve ;)

Possibly - but if you are just going to constantly mock and dismiss - why don't you put your money where your mouth is and explain it?  If we who can see it are so brainwashed and stupid - then enlighten us all?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 24, 2017, 09:13:AM
In other words - EP can stretch the truth by claiming that images were made available at trial, which were of sufficient clarity to allow the defence to see the wounds and challenge accordingly.  The CCRC will take their word (as they always do in this case) and reject any submissions regarding this topic.  This amounts to keeping him in prison 'on a technicality'.

They can keep him in on a technicality - but what they will not be able to do is stop people at large from learning that Sheila Caffell had fight injuries; Nevill Bamber had fight injuries; June Bamber had fight injuries; Jeremy Bamber had no injuries whatsoever.

JB can die in prison.. but people will draw their own conclusions.  This is not a case that paints the authorities in a good light.
I would hope in the above scenario public pressure would have some influence.  However, it's true the fact all the victims apparently have fight injuries on them and most of these have been hidden for some reason does not mean JB would necessarily be allowed another appeal. 
If JB is innocent and has been imprisoned for over 30 years it is a massive tragedy for him and a massive disgrace to our criminal justice system. 
We can argue forever over who did what and why, refuse to contemplate what doesn't fit our own scenario but the bottom line is the truth.
It's not about what we think or more importantly how the CCRC would react but about what is and the fact is that there are highly suspect marks on Sheila's right hand and arm, Nevill has similar marks which have been shown more clearly and have not bled in the same way, probably because his blood was sticky and we are told June has the same or similar marks on her. 
It's very unlikely JB could have sustained similar marks on his hands and arms and been able to have hidden them.  Those kind of wounds don't heal overnight.
It is surely right to question and keep an open mind, the fact that Sheila, June and Nevill all had similar marks is interesting and challenging. The fact it conflicts with other evidence isn't a reason to prove the marks don't exist but is a reason to question everything imo.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 24, 2017, 09:18:AM
If it was available at trial it can still be used via arguing ineffective counsel.
Its probably a grey area and to be truthful you could be right, but I'm no expert on this.  Ineffective counsel, do you mean his defence failing to spot the scratches and questioning the evidence provided by witnesses by bringing in their own experts?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 09:19:AM
Mike used to claim the images used at trial were poor quality - I do not know where he got that information from.  Mike - if you are reading this - can you elaborate?

Some of the images used during the trial were extracted from the video footage that was taken by the first SOCO team (DC Oakey, and DC Henderson), after senior officers had completed their 'informatives', staging the scene! These images were grainy! But, once the second team of SOCO took control of the crime scene after 10am, onwards, PC Birds photographs were much clearer! The problem is though, that not all 581 photographs taken at the scene were used in court, only about 50 were! These were presented under the general heading, ' Court Album', and separated by coloured pieces of card! The reason why some of the images I have previously posted up on this forum are grainy, is because I took photographs of the actual photographs when we went down to the offices of 'GDS', in London by invitation! You can see the flash in some of the photographs I took of photographs! In any event, the defence team were only allowed to view 223 photographs (Master Copy Album) at the police station, the other 358 were kept from them! Considering that the official court album only contained 50 photographs, it means that the court never got to see the other 531 photographs, which is astonishing! At least two of these missing photographs I have seen, with Sheila on top of the bed, minus the gun, only shot once! Imagine the impact those two photographs would have had on the outcome of Bambers trial!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 24, 2017, 09:22:AM
Its probably a grey area and to be truthful you could be right, but I'm no expert on this.  Ineffective counsel, do you mean his defence failing to spot the scratches and questioning the evidence provided by witnesses by bringing in their own experts?

One might believe it to be a tad late in the day to raise the cry "Ineffective counsel" of a trial which took place 32 years ago?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 24, 2017, 09:26:AM
One might believe it to be a tad late in the day to raise the cry "Ineffective counsel" of a trial which took place 32 years ago?

One might believe 2011 is a tad too late for EP/CCRC to provide negatives for lab blow-up?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 24, 2017, 09:28:AM
One might believe it to be a tad late in the day to raise the cry "Ineffective counsel" of a trial which took place 32 years ago?
I would think everyone convicted of a crime could use this excuse, it was the first one my son in law used after pleading guilty.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 24, 2017, 09:30:AM
Possibly - but if you are just going to constantly mock and dismiss - why don't you put your money where your mouth is and explain it?  If we who can see it are so brainwashed and stupid - then enlighten us all?

Just a moment, Roch. Before you accuse me of mocking and dismissing, I suggest YOU put your money where your mouth is and reveal exactly WHAT is that carrot you've been dangling in front of us since you came back saying you had information which wasn't yours to reveal. From where I'm sitting, it sounds very much like taunt..................or, if I'm being generous, tease.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 24, 2017, 09:30:AM
Some of the images used during the trial were extracted from the video footage that was taken by the first SOCO team (DC Oakey, and DC Henderson), after senior officers had completed their 'informatives', staging the scene! These images were grainy! But, once the second team of SOCO took control of the crime scene after 10am, onwards, PC Birds photographs were much clearer! The problem is though, that not all 581 photographs taken at the scene were used in court, only about 50 were! These were presented under the general heading, ' Court Album', and separated by coloured pieces of card! The reason why some of the images I have previously posted up on this forum are grainy, is because I took photographs of the actual photographs when we went down to the offices of 'GDS', in London by invitation! You can see the flash in some of the photographs I took of photographs! In any event, the defence team were only allowed to view 223 photographs (Master Copy Album) at the police station, the other 358 were kept from them! Considering that the official court album only contained 50 photographs, it means that the court never got to see the other 531 photographs, which is astonishing! At least two of these missing photographs I have seen, with Sheila on top of the bed, minus the gun, only shot once! Imagine the impact those two photographs would have had on the outcome of Bambers trial!

Thanks for your response Mike.  We are trying to ascertain the likely quality of images used at trial, for Sheila's right hand and right arm.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 09:31:AM
I would hope in the above scenario public pressure would have some influence.  However, it's true the fact all the victims apparently have fight injuries on them and most of these have been hidden for some reason does not mean JB would necessarily be allowed another appeal. 
If JB is innocent and has been imprisoned for over 30 years it is a massive tragedy for him and a massive disgrace to our criminal justice system. 
We can argue forever over who did what and why, refuse to contemplate what doesn't fit our own scenario but the bottom line is the truth.
It's not about what we think or more importantly how the CCRC would react but about what is and the fact is that there are highly suspect marks on Sheila's right hand and arm, Nevill has similar marks which have been shown more clearly and have not bled in the same way, probably because his blood was sticky and we are told June has the same or similar marks on her. 
It's very unlikely JB could have sustained similar marks on his hands and arms and been able to have hidden them.  Those kind of wounds don't heal overnight.
It is surely right to question and keep an open mind, the fact that Sheila, June and Nevill all had similar marks is interesting and challenging. The fact it conflicts with other evidence isn't a reason to prove the marks don't exist but is a reason to question everything imo.

Yes, Maggie, and in addition to the fact that the three adult victims all have these marks or blood on their arms, is the fact that when Sheila's nightdress was examined on 6th September 1985, blood types 'A' (301, 2+02, 2+03, 2+02) and 'O' (003, 003, 003, 002+, 003) were found to be present fuelling the argument in favour of Sheila being the shooter!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 24, 2017, 09:32:AM
One might believe 2011 is a tad too late for EP/CCRC to provide negatives for lab blow-up?
I thought Bill had photo's that show 28 scratches and these were being looked at?  This one he put up was just one of them and he had evidence of scratches elsewhere?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 24, 2017, 09:33:AM
After 32 years Roch is running with Bill's claim that blood smudges in one photo show gouges. Which refutes several expert testimonies.

The gouges made either by the twins after being shot 8 times in bed, June after being shot 5 times in bed, or Nevill who could apparently not fight back.

I think he believes if he says it enough times, it will become accepted on the forum.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 24, 2017, 09:37:AM
I thought Bill had photo's that show 28 scratches and these were being looked at?  This one he put up was just one of them and he had evidence of scratches elsewhere?

Bill said he has seen photographs. But he can't post them as they are not his.

The 28 scratches must all be underneath Sheila's undamaged nightie. As her visible feet, legs, arms, hands, shoulders, neck, & face had none.

Obviously it's not worthy of discussion.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 24, 2017, 09:40:AM
I thought Bill had photo's that show 28 scratches and these were being looked at?  This one he put up was just one of them and he had evidence of scratches elsewhere?

Justice, my post was aimed at Jane's sneering that it's a tad too late to cry misdirection at trial (regarding wounds) 32 years after the event.  The negatives weren't released to defence until about 2011/2012.  They had a tremendous fight to get hold of the negatives - law students demonstrating outside of the CCRC etc.

Instead of sneering -  why doesn't she recognise that in the interests of truth regarding what actually took place that terrifying night - crystal clear images of the smears / wounds should have been made available at trial!  Then we all mightn't be here and could be spending our time more positively elsewhere!
 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 09:41:AM
Thanks for your response Mike.  We are trying to ascertain the likely quality of images used at trial, for Sheila's right hand and right arm.

Well, I still have the original black and white images that Jeremy was provided with during his trial! A couple of them have been duplicated and posted on the forum already! I have a folder somewhere with about a dozen or more such images and the quality is very poor!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 24, 2017, 09:47:AM
I don't see why the experts would lie about gouges on Sheila.

It would be expected that she would have injuries after fighting a man 8 stone heavier & 9 inches taller than her.

Bit strange that all the injuries the experts never mentioned would have to be under her undamaged nightie.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 24, 2017, 09:47:AM
Some of the images used during the trial were extracted from the video footage that was taken by the first SOCO team (DC Oakey, and DC Henderson), after senior officers had completed their 'informatives', staging the scene! These images were grainy! But, once the second team of SOCO took control of the crime scene after 10am, onwards, PC Birds photographs were much clearer! The problem is though, that not all 581 photographs taken at the scene were used in court, only about 50 were! These were presented under the general heading, ' Court Album', and separated by coloured pieces of card! The reason why some of the images I have previously posted up on this forum are grainy, is because I took photographs of the actual photographs when we went down to the offices of 'GDS', in London by invitation! You can see the flash in some of the photographs I took of photographs! In any event, the defence team were only allowed to view 223 photographs (Master Copy Album) at the police station, the other 358 were kept from them! Considering that the official court album only contained 50 photographs, it means that the court never got to see the other 531 photographs, which is astonishing! At least two of these missing photographs I have seen, with Sheila on top of the bed, minus the gun, only shot once! Imagine the impact those two photographs would have had on the outcome of Bambers trial!
In the same token we are only seeing the images what you and Bamber want us to see, who knows what he holds back and who knows what he has got.  I would imagine a lot of photo's what Bird took of the bodies are not pleasant and rather disturbing esp the 100s of shots he would have taken in the morgue while the autopsy's were performed, I would imagine pii covers this sort of imagery, in the wrong hands could be quite daunting.  I mean could you imagine these photos in the hands of GDS and then he lets you take photo's of them, not very professional and you can understand the need for police to use pii.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 09:50:AM
Although the images are extremely grainy, you can see what appear to be a multitude of blood drops on the bedroom carpet in the region of Sheila's feet and leg, and what springs to my mind is how could Sheila's feet be free from blood? Did she fly into that position on the bedroom floor? Was she levitated there? Well, the actual truth is that police lifted her body from the bed into this position during 'informatives'..
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 24, 2017, 09:55:AM
Although the images are extremely grainy, you can see what appear to be a multitude of blood drops on the bedroom carpet in the region of Sheila's feet and leg, and what springs to my mind is how could Sheila's feet be free from blood? Did she fly into that position on the bedroom floor? Was she levitated there? Well, the actual truth is that police lifted her body from the bed into this position during 'informatives'..

So where is the pool of blood -emanating from under her arm- which would have soaked into the bedding?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 10:01:AM
In the same token we are only seeing the images what you and Bamber want us to see, who knows what he holds back and who knows what he has got.  I would imagine a lot of photo's what Bird took of the bodies are not pleasant and rather disturbing esp the 100s of shots he would have taken in the morgue while the autopsy's were performed, I would imagine pii covers this sort of imagery, in the wrong hands could be quite daunting.  I mean could you imagine these photos in the hands of GDS and then he lets you take photo's of them, not very professional and you can understand the need for police to use pii.

For your information I have seen all the autopsy photographs, and no I didn't photograph them Another thing which needs clearing up, GDS did not let me photograph the photographs! He was either in Iraq or Rome when we were invited to look through the photographic evidence at his London office! His Son Michael was supervising us! I only took photographs of photographs which I thought showed that Sheila's body had been moved or disturbed! I was acting as Jeremy's McKensie man at the time, and was up front with him, with Ewen Smith, and with GDS! So, don't blame GDS for allowing me to take photographs of photographs, I only wished now that I could have taken many more!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 24, 2017, 10:04:AM
Well, I still have the original black and white images that Jeremy was provided with during his trial! A couple of them have been duplicated and posted on the forum already! I have a folder somewhere with about a dozen or more such images and the quality is very poor!

Mike, do you know whether it is possible to find out exactly which photos were shown to the jury and whether they were colour or black and white?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 10:08:AM
So where is the pool of blood -emanating from under her arm- which would have soaked into the bedding?
When Sheila's body was laid on top of the bed, she did not have the pooled blood in the region of her right arm/armpit, she had only been shot once by that stage! The blood you see in this grainy image in the region of her right arm/armpit came once police moved her body to the floor and brought the rifle to her body from the box room window, during informative! The blood you see on that part of her body is from the second shot beneath the chin which effectively killed her immediately!

Very little blood flowed from the first wound which ran vertically down her neck because she was stood up downstairs in the kitchen when she got shot as per the officers report bearing the reference 1612 refers...
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 24, 2017, 10:09:AM
For your information I have seen all the autopsy photographs, and no I didn't photograph them Another thing which needs clearing up, GDS did not let me photograph the photographs! He was either in Iraq or Rome when we were invited to look through the photographic evidence at his London office! His Son Michael was supervising us! I only took photographs of photographs which I thought showed that Sheila's body had been moved or disturbed! I was acting as Jeremy's McKensie man at the time, and was up front with him, with Ewen Smith, and with GDS! So, don't blame GDS for allowing me to take photographs of photographs, I only wished now that I could have taken many more!
Of course he's to blame, they are in his possession and you got invited down to his office and was shown the photos and allowed to take pictures, that's why the need for pii when unprofessionals can handle such sensitive information.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 24, 2017, 10:12:AM
For your information I have seen all the autopsy photographs, and no I didn't photograph them Another thing which needs clearing up, GDS did not let me photograph the photographs! He was either in Iraq or Rome when we were invited to look through the photographic evidence at his London office! His Son Michael was supervising us! I only took photographs of photographs which I thought showed that Sheila's body had been moved or disturbed! I was acting as Jeremy's McKensie man at the time, and was up front with him, with Ewen Smith, and with GDS! So, don't blame GDS for allowing me to take photographs of photographs, I only wished now that I could have taken many more!

 I'm wondering why, at that point, you thought she'd been moved? Are you saying that because you wanted it to be believed "that Sheila's body had been moved or disturbed!" you only took "photographs of photographs" which you thought showed such?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 10:12:AM
Another thing worthy of note or consideration, is the fact that prior to these grainy images being taken, cops had rolled Sheila's body into the recovery position on its right side! Therefore, where was the rifle at this time? How did the rifle end up back on top of Sheila's body, once cops rolled her o to her back again?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 24, 2017, 10:13:AM
Of course he's to blame, they are in his possession and you got invited down to his office and was shown the photos and allowed to take pictures, that's why the need for pii when unprofessionals can handle such sensitive information.

It's hardly professional to frame a man for five murders and then conceal the truth. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 24, 2017, 10:14:AM
When Sheila's body was laid on top of the bed, she did not have the pooled blood in the region of her right arm/armpit, she had only been shot once by that stage! The blood you see in this grainy image in the region of her right arm/armpit came once police moved her body to the floor and brought the rifle to her body from the box room window, during informative! The blood you see on that part of her body is from the second shot beneath the chin which effectively killed her immediately!

Very little blood flowed from the first wound which ran vertically down her neck because she was stood up downstairs in the kitchen when she got shot as per the officers report bearing the reference 1612 refers...

My mistake. I believed you to have said the gun went off when they moved it from her  -still alive-  person whilst it was on the bed.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 10:22:AM
I'm wondering why, at that point, you thought she'd been moved? Are you saying that because you wanted it to be believed "that Sheila's body had been moved or disturbed!" you only took "photographs of photographs" which you thought showed such?

By that stage I was already aware that Sheila had been photographed on the bed, and I had had words with Jeremy over that photograph I sent him of it! He was hopping mad, but once that got sorted, and Jeremy sacked Ewen Smith and hired GDS, I was invited with another trusted friend to go down to London to see if there were any more photographs of Sheila on the bed! We only had an hour to view the photographic albums, and the photographs I photographed were of interest to me and Jeremy and to GDS because of the fact that Sheila was photographed by the first SOCO team (Oakey and Henderson) on top of the bed, and these photographs showed her body on the bedroom floor, shot an additional time! Twice in total! That's why I took photographs of those photographs! Jeremy had already warned me that Stan Jones and Mick Clark had told Ann Eaton that Sheila's and Junes bodies were laid on top of the bed when they visited the main bedroom, with the gun in-between them both on the bed, and a bible on Sheila's chest!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 10:26:AM
Of course he's to blame, they are in his possession and you got invited down to his office and was shown the photos and allowed to take pictures, that's why the need for pii when unprofessionals can handle such sensitive information.

I was Jeremy's McKensie man, and I was entitled to do whatever I thought would help Jeremy! The cops staged Sheila's body and me taking the photographs that I took was the right thing to do under the circumstances! A lot of mischief occurs behind pii on the part of the authorities, for example, like withholding 358 photographs from the defence team, and withholding 531 photographs from the court which tried Bamber!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 24, 2017, 10:26:AM
I'm wondering why, at that point, you thought she'd been moved? Are you saying that because you wanted it to be believed "that Sheila's body had been moved or disturbed!" you only took "photographs of photographs" which you thought showed such?
So, defence have all these photo's and choose not to use them?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 10:39:AM
My mistake. I believed you to have said the gun went off when they moved it from her  -still alive-  person whilst it was on the bed.

No, she was lifted to the floor from the bed, then during these informative, the gun was brought to her body - this took place at 9.13am and whilst they had the gun on her body they were gauging whether or not it might be possible to suggest that Sheila could have shot herself using the anshuzt rifle with its sound moderator fitted. But they realised it was touch and go because with the muzzle of the silencer under the point of her chin, the trigger mechanism could only just about be reached and activated, and it was whilst the senior officers were pondering over this and efforts to try and make it fit into that scenario, that the trigger was activated and to everybody's concern a shot was discharged under Sheila's chin! Nobody had checked the anshuzt rifle to see if it had any ammunition still in it! She got shot at 9.13am, and as soon as it happened the rifle was whisked away from her body and stood at the main bedroom window (DC Oakey/Henderson took photograph no. 23 afterwards), whilst Sheila's body was put into the recovery position on its right side! Blood from her mouth and neck spilled into the bedroom carpet and was covered up later by the open face down bible once her body was rolled back into the suppine position, and the rifle at the main bedroom window was then brought to her body and her death scene was staged, shot twice with the silencer removed from the barrel of the gun! DS Jones collected the silencer later that same morning, with by that stage the second team of SOCO in control of the staged crime scene!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 10:48:AM
No, she was lifted to the floor from the bed, then during these informative, the gun was brought to her body - this took place at 9.13am and whilst they had the gun on her body they were gauging whether or not it might be possible to suggest that Sheila could have shot herself using the anshuzt rifle with its sound moderator fitted. But they realised it was touch and go because with the muzzle of the silencer under the point of her chin, the trigger mechanism could only just about be reached and activated, and it was whilst the senior officers were pondering over this and efforts to try and make it fit into that scenario, that the trigger was activated and to everybody's concern a shot was discharged under Sheila's chin! Nobody had checked the anshuzt rifle to see if it had any ammunition still in it! She got shot at 9.13am, and as soon as it happened the rifle was whisked away from her body and stood at the main bedroom window (DC Oakey/Henderson took photograph no. 23 afterwards), whilst Sheila's body was put into the recovery position on its right side! Blood from her mouth and neck spilled into the bedroom carpet and was covered up later by the open face down bible once her body was rolled back into the suppine position, and the rifle at the main bedroom window was then brought to her body and her death scene was staged, shot twice with the silencer removed from the barrel of the gun! DS Jones collected the silencer later that same morning, with by that stage the second team of SOCO in control of the staged crime scene!

At around 10 am, the senior officers who had performed the 'informatives', and the first team of SOCO (Oakey and Henderson) vacated the staged crime scene, and the second team of SOCO (Cook, Bird, Davidson and Hammersley) took control of the farmhouse and proceeded to photograph it as though nothing had been touched or disturbed! There was effectively a staging of the bedroom with the bodies of Sheila and June on the bedroom floor either side of the bed they had previously been laying upon as seen by Stan Jones and Mick Clark!!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 24, 2017, 10:51:AM
No, she was lifted to the floor from the bed, then during these informative, the gun was brought to her body - this took place at 9.13am and whilst they had the gun on her body they were gauging whether or not it might be possible to suggest that Sheila could have shot herself using the anshuzt rifle with its sound moderator fitted. But they realised it was touch and go because with the muzzle of the silencer under the point of her chin, the trigger mechanism could only just about be reached and activated, and it was whilst the senior officers were pondering over this and efforts to try and make it fit into that scenario, that the trigger was activated and to everybody's concern a shot was discharged under Sheila's chin! Nobody had checked the anshuzt rifle to see if it had any ammunition still in it! She got shot at 9.13am, and as soon as it happened the rifle was whisked away from her body and stood at the main bedroom window (DC Oakey/Henderson took photograph no. 23 afterwards), whilst Sheila's body was put into the recovery position on its right side! Blood from her mouth and neck spilled into the bedroom carpet and was covered up later by the open face down bible once her body was rolled back into the suppine position, and the rifle at the main bedroom window was then brought to her body and her death scene was staged, shot twice with the silencer removed from the barrel of the gun! DS Jones collected the silencer later that same morning, with by that stage the second team of SOCO in control of the staged crime scene!

Has it never struck you as being curious that YOU and YOU alone are the holder of this -allegedly- open secret which SHOULD have freed Jeremy at a moment's notice but not ONE single person who holds this secret -and there HAS to be others in order for you to have received the information- has done anything about it in all this time?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 10:53:AM
At around 10 am, the senior officers who had performed the 'informatives', and the first team of SOCO (Oakey and Henderson) vacated the staged crime scene, and the second team of SOCO (Cook, Bird, Davidson and Hammersley) took control of the farmhouse and proceeded to photograph it as though nothing had been touched or disturbed! There was effectively a staging of the bedroom with the bodies of Sheila and June on the bedroom floor either side of the bed they had previously been laying upon as seen by Stan Jones and Mick Clark!!

The staging of the bodies in the main bedroom by senior officers during 'informatives', and the presence of the first team of SOCO (Oakey and Henderson) at the farmhouse, and everything they did and got up to prior to 10 am that morning has been deliberately withheld and an attempt to keep the truth surrounding Sheila Caffells death from being made public knowlege! But they were there, and they did everything I have told you about!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 24, 2017, 11:06:AM
Mike, do you know whether it is possible to find out exactly which photos were shown to the jury and whether they were colour or black and white?

They would not have been black and white.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 24, 2017, 11:13:AM
A credible explanation was given here: http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8513.0.html

He probably didn't want to lie.  He also probably didn't want to impede the police from making sure a multiple murderer didn't get 'off the hook'.

Again you have missed the CRUCIAL aspect - when Venezis FIRST took notes on the bodies, there couldn't have been any kind of conspiracy in the offing as it was hours after the murders. However, his notes do NOT refer to any marks on Sheila of the kind you and Bill are claiming. Looking at a photograph is no match for what Venezis saw and the ONLY way you can explain his notes is to state that they aren't genuine? So from your side 'everybody lied' even when there was nothing to lie about?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 11:17:AM
Again you have missed the CRUCIAL aspect - when Venezis FIRST took notes on the bodies, there couldn't have been any kind of conspiracy in the offing as it was hours after the murders. However, his notes do NOT refer to any marks on Sheila of the kind you and Bill are claiming. Looking at a photograph is no match for what Venezis saw and the ONLY way you can explain his notes is to state that they aren't genuine? So from your side 'everybody lied' even when there was nothing to lie about?

The original handwritten notes belonging to this case, made by Venezis, went missing during a burgalries at his home address! He had apparently taken them home with a view to revising them over the weekend, and somebody broke into his home, went into his lift and stole them! Can you believe it!!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 24, 2017, 11:20:AM
In other words - EP can stretch the truth by claiming that images were made available at trial, which were of sufficient clarity to allow the defence to see the wounds and challenge accordingly.  The CCRC will take their word (as they always do in this case) and reject any submissions regarding this topic.  This amounts to keeping him in prison 'on a technicality'.

They can keep him in on a technicality - but what they will not be able to do is stop people at large from learning that:

Sheila Caffell had fight injuries

Nevill Bamber had fight injuries

June Bamber had fight injuries

Jeremy Bamber had no injuries whatsoever.

JB can die in prison.. but people will draw their own conclusions.  This is not a case that paints the authorities in a good light.

But you don't know that they were of inferior quality, you're assuming that because it eats at the heart of your claim. They would NOT have used black and white photographs and I know  this for a fact. You haven't seen the CS photos that th jury saw and yet you're really pushing the notion that they MUST have been poor quality and all concerned lied before there was anything to lie about or falsified autopsy info - putting their own career and reputation on the line - for what?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 24, 2017, 11:24:AM
The original handwritten notes belonging to this case, made by Venezis, went missing during a burgalries at his home address! He had apparently taken them home with a view to revising them over the weekend, and somebody broke into his home, went into his lift and stole them! Can you believe it!!

No Mike, actually I can't believe it. This is a burglary too far. Taff Jones had a similar burglary if I'm not mistaken and I have heard this claim about others. I don't believe there was any such theft but other are free to believe what they choose. It won't help Jeremy though. Only the truth will help him IF he is innocent. Venezis notes prove there were no such marks on Sheila's hands/arms - in order to further this aspect, people need to get past his notes. Good luck with that!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 24, 2017, 11:32:AM
The wounds were not only visible to believers.  So you can put that claim in the trash for starters.  And I suggest that if you cant tell what a fingernail gouge looks like on somebody's hand - then you should try and explain how a neck wound, spurting copious amounts of blood, can cause a smear on the back of a hand, right next to a crescent shaped incision?  You cannot explain it and you will not explain it - that being said - can you please spare us from reading more of your drivel about it?


You should try and explain why a respected pathologist omitted such marks from his initial report when he went into finite details about marks on Nevill. You cannot explain it and you won't explain it .....
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 24, 2017, 11:35:AM
I thought Bill had photo's that show 28 scratches and these were being looked at?  This one he put up was just one of them and he had evidence of scratches elsewhere?

That's what was claimed - this being the case, no one has anything to worry about because IF they show what is being claimed, supporters can sit back and wait for the appeal. Of course if they don't show that and they can't explain Vanezis's notes, they might have to wait a tad longer!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 24, 2017, 12:00:PM
Of course if they don't show that and they can't explain Vanezis's notes, they might have to wait a tad longer!

Given that you yourself have now witnessed two separate images, both with so called 'smears' that you cannot provide an explanation for - in relation to the neck wound ... I find your attitude puzzling.

I'm referring to the back of the hand (and inside forefinger) and the two 'smears' David inadvertently pointed out yesterday. 

This is not even including the images relating to the lower arm - nor any images relating to the upper arm!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 24, 2017, 12:03:PM
Given that you yourself have now witnessed two separate images, both with so called 'smears' that you cannot provide an explanation for - in relation to the neck wound ... I find your attitude puzzling.

I'm referring to the back of the hand (and inside forefinger) and the two 'smears' David inadvertently pointed out yesterday. 

This is not even including the images relating to the lower arm - nor any images relating to the upper arm!

That makes two of us.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 24, 2017, 12:06:PM
Just a moment, Roch. Before you accuse me of mocking and dismissing, I suggest YOU put your money where your mouth is and reveal exactly WHAT is that carrot you've been dangling in front of us since you came back saying you had information which wasn't yours to reveal. From where I'm sitting, it sounds very much like taunt..................or, if I'm being generous, tease.

The carrot has been revealed - the 'thing' that couldn't be mentioned are the alleged scratch/gouge marks on Sheila's hand//arm.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 24, 2017, 12:24:PM
The carrot has been revealed - the 'thing' that couldn't be mentioned are the alleged scratch/gouge marks on Sheila's hand//arm.

The 'carrot' was fight injuries on all three adults - but the least known about are relating to Sheila... followed by June.

Jeremy Bamber had no injuries - because he was not involved in the fight between Sheila vs Nevill / June.

"Daughter gone berserk".
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 24, 2017, 12:30:PM
I was Jeremy's McKensie man, and I was entitled to do whatever I thought would help Jeremy! The cops staged Sheila's body and me taking the photographs that I took was the right thing to do under the circumstances! A lot of mischief occurs behind pii on the part of the authorities, for example, like withholding 358 photographs from the defence team, and withholding 531 photographs from the court which tried Bamber!
So that means two unqualified people acting on his behalf then?

Obviously you didn't understand what a Mckensie friend role was then, because you wasn't entitled to do whatever you liked.
What McKenzie Friends may do
3) MFs may: i) provide moral support for litigants; ii) take notes; iii) help with case papers; iii) quietly give advice on any aspect of the conduct of the case.
What McKenzie Friends may not do
4) MFs may not: i) act as the litigants’ agent in relation to the proceedings; ii) manage litigants’ cases outside court, for example by signing court documents; or iii) address the court, make oral submissions or examine witnesses.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 24, 2017, 12:48:PM
The 'carrot' was fight injuries on all three adults - but the least known about are relating to Sheila... followed by June.

Jeremy Bamber had no injuries - because he was not involved in the fight between Sheila vs Nevill / June.

"Daughter gone berserk".

The alleged injuries on Sheila are just that - I'll keep repeating it because it is crucial to your argument. No such marks were reported in Vanezis's autopsy notes even though he described her right hand in detail.

"Yellow metal ring on ring finger R hand, nicotine stain R hand both hands not contaminated apart from blood stains"
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 24, 2017, 12:52:PM
The original handwritten notes belonging to this case, made by Venezis, went missing during a burgalries at his home address! He had apparently taken them home with a view to revising them over the weekend, and somebody broke into his home, went into his lift and stole them! Can you believe it!!
Whoops, didn't know about this?  Wonder if this is where M15 got involved?  Makes you wonder how Vanezis got where he did, he was so sloppy in his job, he missed the cuts and grazes attributed to Sheila, then he loses/has stolen the notes he made and has to rewrite the lot again. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 24, 2017, 12:54:PM
The alleged injuries on Sheila are just that - I'll keep repeating it because it is crucial to your argument. No such marks were reported in Vanezis's autopsy notes even though he described her right hand in detail.

"Yellow metal ring on ring finger R hand, nicotine stain R hand both hands not contaminated apart from blood stains"

Just because a pathologist fails to notice it, does not mean it does not exist. For example Dr Craig could only see one gunshot wound on Sheila. Yet there was two.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 24, 2017, 12:55:PM
The alleged injuries on Sheila are just that - I'll keep repeating it because it is crucial to your argument. No such marks were reported in Vanezis's autopsy notes even though he described her right hand in detail.

"Yellow metal ring on ring finger R hand, nicotine stain R hand both hands not contaminated apart from blood stains"

Hands not contaminated?  Wounds are not contaminates - so I don't see the relevance.  I'm not sure what you mean about 'crucial to your argument'. 

I think what is crucial, to guilter credibility on this issue - is that you get your heads together and explain how a neck gunshot wound, spurting blood, could cause the 'smears' in question. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 24, 2017, 01:08:PM
Hands not contaminated?  Wounds are not contaminates - so I don't see the relevance.  I'm not sure what you mean about 'crucial to your argument'. 

I think what is crucial, to guilter credibility on this issue - is that you get your heads together and explain how a neck gunshot wound, spurting blood, could cause the 'smears' in question.
Roch I can only say again, who knows what happened in Sheila's final execution, who knows what she did with her hands after taking the first shot, who knows what Bamber did with her hands to stage suicide, the question is are they cuts or blood smearing?  You cannot prove what she did with her arms, whether she held the wound after being shot, position of her head when the first shot entered how the blood ran, did Bamber cause the smears in some way?  Who knows and I'm not going to second guess, it's impossible to say 100 per cent.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 24, 2017, 01:17:PM
Everyone agrees Sheila & her nightdress would have been badly damaged after the violent kitchen fight.

Supporters try to say there was no fight & the raid team smashed things, knocked things over & scratched things. Or that Nevill just collapsed & Sheila spent 5 minutes hitting him with the rifle. Or both. Neither are plausible.

It seems the new direction from Roch is there was a big kitchen fight & Sheila was gouged on the arm by Nevill for some reason. Although the photo's don't show this & several expert sources don't mention any other injuries on Sheila. So the experts are now included in the industrial frame.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 24, 2017, 01:49:PM
Everyone agrees Sheila & her nightdress would have been badly damaged after the violent kitchen fight.

Supporters try to say there was no fight & the raid team smashed things, knocked things over & scratched things. Or that Nevill just collapsed & Sheila spent 5 minutes hitting him with the rifle. Or both. Neither are plausible.

It seems the new direction from Roch is there was a big kitchen fight & Sheila was gouged on the arm by Nevill for some reason. Although the photo's don't show this & several expert sources don't mention any other injuries on Sheila. So the experts are now included in the industrial frame.

Adam think Sheila's injuries came from June.  Maybe you will be kind enough to explain where the blood smear came from on the breakfast cereal bowl on the kitchen table we have been told Sheila ate after the others so maybe she had a bowl of cereal and the blood on her right thumb would have held the bowl in the position the smear is.  Go and look at the pictures in the archives.   
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 24, 2017, 01:57:PM
Hands not contaminated?  Wounds are not contaminates - so I don't see the relevance.  I'm not sure what you mean about 'crucial to your argument'. 

I think what is crucial, to guilter credibility on this issue - is that you get your heads together and explain how a neck gunshot wound, spurting blood, could cause the 'smears' in question.

So where are the mention of your wounds? Why are they omitted? It's a simple question but one you keep avoiding other than to say the report isn't genuine. Perhaps you and Bill and the CT et al can get your heads together and come up with a reason why Veneziz would omit these wounds from his report when he detailed those of Nevill Bamner. I know wounds aren't contamination the fact that they aren't mentioned at al is the point?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 24, 2017, 01:58:PM
Just because a pathologist fails to notice it, does not mean it does not exist. For example Dr Craig could only see one gunshot wound on Sheila. Yet there was two.

What? Are you for real?  ::)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 24, 2017, 02:10:PM
Adam think Sheila's injuries came from June.  Maybe you will be kind enough to explain where the blood smear came from on the breakfast cereal bowl on the kitchen table we have been told Sheila ate after the others so maybe she had a bowl of cereal and the blood on her right thumb would have held the bowl in the position the smear is.  Go and look at the pictures in the archives.

June was shot 5 times in bed. So obviously couldn't have injured Sheila.

Blood smear on kitchen bowl ? Are you saying Sheila had breakfast after the massacre ? You will have to show me that picture.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 24, 2017, 02:23:PM
Hands not contaminated?  Wounds are not contaminates - so I don't see the relevance.  I'm not sure what you mean about 'crucial to your argument'. 

I think what is crucial, to guilter credibility on this issue - is that you get your heads together and explain how a neck gunshot wound, spurting blood, could cause the 'smears' in question.

The absence of post mortem hypostasis and rigor mortis in the photos of her arm makes it impossible for Jeremy to have killed her anyway. Even more so if one believes he walks back to the Goldhanger.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 24, 2017, 02:25:PM
Adam think Sheila's injuries came from June.  Maybe you will be kind enough to explain where the blood smear came from on the breakfast cereal bowl on the kitchen table we have been told Sheila ate after the others so maybe she had a bowl of cereal and the blood on her right thumb would have held the bowl in the position the smear is.  Go and look at the pictures in the archives.

PH thought it was a blood smear, the question was asked but this isn't  a fact of the case, nor is it a fact that Sheila ate cereal.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 24, 2017, 02:26:PM
Everyone agrees Sheila & her nightdress would have been badly damaged after the violent kitchen fight.

Supporters try to say there was no fight & the raid team smashed things, knocked things over & scratched things. Or that Nevill just collapsed & Sheila spent 5 minutes hitting him with the rifle. Or both. Neither are plausible.


 ::)

The idea of the police creating the mess in the kitchen, actually originates from the police themselves. Its their own admission.

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 24, 2017, 02:27:PM
What? Are you for real?  ::)

Yes.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 24, 2017, 03:18:PM
PH thought it was a blood smear, the question was asked but this isn't  a fact of the case, nor is it a fact that Sheila ate cereal.

Caroline I was not sure if it was you or PH that noticed the blood smear on the bowl (not a fact I know) maybe more of an observation like most stuff on this forum.  I admit the bit about Sheila having cereal may have come from Lookout or did I imagine it if  I did I do apologise.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 24, 2017, 03:19:PM
Yes.
Funny he only mentions one gunshot wound on all the bodies, he was there to certify death not to do an autopsy.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 24, 2017, 03:23:PM
June was shot 5 times in bed. So obviously couldn't have injured Sheila.

Blood smear on kitchen bowl ? Are you saying Sheila had breakfast after the massacre ? You will have to show me that picture.

Adam the forum assumed June walked around the bed was she heading for the door to grapple with Sheila for the gun we will never know but it looks like she did obtain scratch marks from a female with sharp nails not a fact an observation.  You know I cannot copy and post but I will later on find it in the archives and give you the number you will have read the post by Caroline PH noticed this and brought it to the attention of Caroline who brought it to the forum cannot remember the discussion.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 24, 2017, 03:30:PM
Adam the forum assumed June walked around the bed was she heading for the door to grapple with Sheila for the gun we will never know but it looks like she did obtain scratch marks from a female with sharp nails not a fact an observation.  You know I cannot copy and post but I will later on find it in the archives and give you the number you will have read the post by Caroline PH noticed this and brought it to the attention of Caroline who brought it to the forum cannot remember the discussion.
We know June walked round the bed because the blood spots on the carpet prove it.  It's often queried why a badly wounded June would have walked round to the far side of the bed before walking back and collapsing by the bedroom door.  She may have walked toward Sheila to try to get the gun?
I know it messes up Adam's scenario but if she has fight wounds as is claimed she got them somehow as did Sheila.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 24, 2017, 03:35:PM
We know June walked round the bed because the blood spots on the carpet prove it.  It's often queried why a badly wounded June would have walked round to the far side of the bed before walking back and collapsing by the bedroom door.  She may have walked toward Sheila to try to get the gun?
I know it messes up Adam's scenario but if she has fight wounds as is claimed she got them somehow as did Sheila.

Maggie thank you for that I thought the same but forgot about the blood spots on the carpet.  Why would an injured June walk round the bed?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 24, 2017, 03:43:PM
147. The precise sequence of the killings was unclear. June Bamber was shot whilst still lying in bed but had managed to get up and walk a few steps before she collapsed and died by the main bedroom door.

Nevill Bamber was also shot in the bedroom but was able to get downstairs into the kitchen where there was a violent struggle before he was overwhelmed and then shot a number of times in the head.

The children had been shot in their beds as they slept.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 24, 2017, 03:44:PM
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8415.msg401067.html#msg401067
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 24, 2017, 03:46:PM
The only reason it is known that June walked about a short distance while Sheila was up, was because June's blood was in the bedroom. After she had been shot 5 times in bed.

Only Nevill could have given Sheila injuries, but he would have just used his 8 stone weight & 9 inch height advantage to smother her instead.

Bamber didn't need to injure Sheila as she was zonked out, half asleep & not strong enough to put up any resistance.

The expert evidence says Sheila had no injuries. Which matches the photos.

Everything fits.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 24, 2017, 03:47:PM
Funny he only mentions one gunshot wound on all the bodies, he was there to certify death not to do an autopsy.

You are taking his words out of context from another document and applying it to this.

Nice try tho  ;)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 24, 2017, 04:02:PM
You are taking his words out of context from another document and applying it to this.

Nice try tho  ;)
He certified death and did not make a psychical examination, probably at that stage he could only see one wound because of blood?

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=5969
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 04:22:PM
He certified death and did not make a psychical examination, probably at that stage he could only see one wound because of blood?

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=5969
There wasn't much blood visible from the first wound to Sheila's throat, any blood there was ran vertically down towards the trunk of her body! Doctor Craig pronounced her dead without physical examination at 8.44am, DS Jones, and DC Clark, saw Sheila's body on top of the bed when they both visited the main bedroom shortly after 9am, and both say that Sheila had only been shot once by that stage!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 04:26:PM
There wasn't much blood visible from the first wound to Sheila's throat, any blood there was ran vertically down towards the trunk of her body! Doctor Craig pronounced her dead without physical examination at 8.44am, DS Jones, and DC Clark, saw Sheila's body on top of the bed when they both visited the main bedroom shortly after 9am, and both say that Sheila had only been shot once by that stage!

At least that is what Jones and Clark told Ann Eaton on the first morning of the tragedy whilst all were gathered at Jeremy's cottage!!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on July 24, 2017, 04:42:PM
We know June walked round the bed because the blood spots on the carpet prove it.  It's often queried why a badly wounded June would have walked round to the far side of the bed before walking back and collapsing by the bedroom door.  She may have walked toward Sheila to try to get the gun?
I know it messes up Adam's scenario but if she has fight wounds as is claimed she got them somehow as did Sheila.
Wasn't she walking towards the connecting door of the twins' room? I can't see her as having any thought process about trying to disarm her daughter; she was incapacitated and close to death.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 04:48:PM
At least that is what Jones and Clark told Ann Eaton on the first morning of the tragedy whilst all were gathered at Jeremy's cottage!!

If the bodies of Sheila and June were on top of the bed like Jones and Clark told Ann Eaton, with the gun on the bed between them, and a bible on Sheila's chest, how could Sheila's body be photographed on the bedroom floor after 10 am when the second team of SOCO took control of the scene? Who moved Sheila's body from the bed to the floor? Who placed the rifle in her possession? How did she end up with two shots to the neck when she only had one right up until shortly after Jones and Clark left the main bedroom scene?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 24, 2017, 05:03:PM
So where are the mention of your wounds? Why are they omitted? It's a simple question but one you keep avoiding other than to say the report isn't genuine. Perhaps you and Bill and the CT et al can get your heads together and come up with a reason why Veneziz would omit these wounds from his report when he detailed those of Nevill Bamner. I know wounds aren't contamination the fact that they aren't mentioned at al is the point?

If his report doesn't describe her wounds then it's not genuine and was amended to fit with the aims of the second investigation. 

As for reasons - it's described here: http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8513.0.html
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 24, 2017, 05:50:PM
I was Jeremy's McKensie man, and I was entitled to do whatever I thought would help Jeremy! The cops staged Sheila's body and me taking the photographs that I took was the right thing to do under the circumstances! A lot of mischief occurs behind pii on the part of the authorities, for example, like withholding 358 photographs from the defence team, and withholding 531 photographs from the court which tried Bamber!
Looks like he was given a load of photo's back in 2011,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13394873
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 06:26:PM
The jury were conned into believing that Sheila's hands and feet were blood free!

We now know she had blood on her hands and feet! We also now know that she had bloodied marks on her right forearm which are consistent with someone having grappled with her! Both Neville and June Bamber had marks on their arms consistent with them grappling with Sheila..
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 06:29:PM
Looks like he was given a load of photo's back in 2011,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13394873

The problem here is that there were more than 401 photographs, Essex police are still holding onto 181 others which prove the cops and not Jeremy Bamber shot Sheila Caffell and that cops staged her suicide on the main bedroom floor!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 24, 2017, 06:38:PM
The problem here is that there were more than 401 photographs, Essex police are still holding onto 181 others which prove the cops and not Jeremy Bamber shot Sheila Caffell and that cops staged her suicide on the main bedroom floor!
ALL, negatives in our possession?

"We have now approached Mr Bamber and his team with a proposal to allow them access to the material they require and to permit prints to be made of all the negatives in our possession."
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 24, 2017, 06:59:PM
ALL, negatives in our possession?

"We have now approached Mr Bamber and his team with a proposal to allow them access to the material they require and to permit prints to be made of all the negatives in our possession."

(http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/football/goalkeeper-smiley-emoticon-1.gif)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 24, 2017, 07:05:PM
Wasn't she walking towards the connecting door of the twins' room? I can't see her as having any thought process about trying to disarm her daughter; she was incapacitated and close to death.
I have no idea Steve there are various possibilities, because of the blood drips we do know that she was on that side of the room when she was wounded and as far as we know she was found collapsedby the other door into the main bedroom. 
I do believe Sheila had wounds probably from sharp nails therefore it is not a huge leap to wonder if they were caused by Sheila if June was trying to get the gun off her in order to save herself or save the twins.  It shouldn't be a surprise that June was a courageous woman, in WW2 she worked undercover in the Middle East, a position she must have volunteered for and for which she would have been taught self defence if under attack as part of her training.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 24, 2017, 07:09:PM
(http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/football/goalkeeper-smiley-emoticon-1.gif)
Ha Ha, he looks on form Hartley is that your new Keeper?

If he lets one in he will be called corrupt or he's been blackmailed.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 07:16:PM
ALL, negatives in our possession?

"We have now approached Mr Bamber and his team with a proposal to allow them access to the material they require and to permit prints to be made of all the negatives in our possession."

180 negatives still missing and unaccounted for ('THE SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM'), consisted of 581 photographs! 'THE MASTER COPY ALBUM' only had 223 photographs, so with the CCRC having 401 negatives in their possession, that's 178 more than Bambers legal team were given pre-trial! Cops cut negative strips to remove damning evidence!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 24, 2017, 07:17:PM
Wasn't she walking towards the connecting door of the twins' room? I can't see her as having any thought process about trying to disarm her daughter; she was incapacitated and close to death.

We've always suggested that Neville fled the bedroom and JB gave chase. Perhaps Neville got out of bed and went to confront JB with June moving away to the far side of the room. Then JB runs out of bullets and flees to the kitchen to reload whilst Neville gives Chase. June was then shot again on JBs return to the bedroom.  :-\
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 24, 2017, 07:18:PM
Ha Ha, he looks on form Hartley is that your new Keeper?

If he lets one in he will be called corrupt or he's been blackmailed.

Just the usual moving goalposts.  ;)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 07:19:PM
We've always suggested that Neville fled the bedroom and JB gave chase. Perhaps Neville got out of bed and went to confront JB with June moving away to the far side of the room. Then JB runs out of bullets and flees to the kitchen to reload whilst Neville gives Chase. June was then shot again on JBs return to the bedroom.  :-\

Jeremy Bamber did not shoot the other four victims, Sheila did! She had their blood on her nightdress! All the adult victims had marks and gouges on their arms and hands consistent with them all having struggled with one another at some stage! Neville and Sheila struggled together, and so did Sheila and June Bamber! Let's also not forget that according to the running commentary recorded in the police message logs, that Sheila and Neville Bambers bodies were both downstairs from between 7.35am, and 8.10am, two bodies found upon entry to the kitchen,CA murder and a suicide, only a further three bodies upstairs! Sheila's body was the second body found, it had to be the second body found because her death was the only death being touted as a suicide! The suicide was the second body found, not the tied, or the fourth, or the fifth! There were only three bodies found upstairs by 8.10am, one of those three bodies could not have been a reference to Sheila's body, they referred to June Bambers body, and the bodies of the two child victims!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 07:32:PM
Just the usual moving goalposts.  ;)

There has been no moving of goal posts by me, I have told the truth!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 07:39:PM
Blood which originated from the other victims was found on Sheila's nightdress, it's all documented, the analysis was carried out by John Hayward on 6 September 1985!! All the adult victims had marks, bruising and smeared blood on their hands and arms! It was definitely Sheila that shot and killed the other four victims! But she did not shoot and kill herself, or try to shoot and kill herself, either downstairs in the kitchen, or upstairs on the bed, or on the floor! After cops shot Sheila dead in a mishap on the bedroom floor another doctor was summoned to the scene to pronounce her dead! The surname of the doctor in question is 'HARRIS'..
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 24, 2017, 07:41:PM
I have no idea Steve there are various possibilities, because of the blood drips we do know that she was on that side of the room when she was wounded and as far as we know she was found collapsedby the other door into the main bedroom. 
I do believe Sheila had wounds probably from sharp nails therefore it is not a huge leap to wonder if they were caused by Sheila if June was trying to get the gun off her in order to save herself or save the twins.  It shouldn't be a surprise that June was a courageous woman, in WW2 she worked undercover in the Middle East, a position she must have volunteered for and for which she would have been taught self defence if under attack as part of her training.

June was shot 5 times in bed. Even David agrees. There is no possibility of June putting up any resistance after these shots.

'Believing Sheila had wounds probably from sharpe nails' is not enough. The photos need to show it & the experts need to confirm it. Wanting it to be true is not enough.

As said just now, Bamber's team were given all negatives. Over 400 photos. None showed any injuries to Sheila. And none of the 40 pictures on this forum show any.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 07:42:PM
Blood which originated from the other victims was found on Sheila's nightdress, it's all documented, the analysis was carried out by John Hayward on 6 September 1985!! All the adult victims had marks, bruising and smeared blood on their hands and arms! It was definitely Sheila that shot and killed the other four victims! But she did not shoot and kill herself, or try to shoot and kill herself, either downstairs in the kitchen, or upstairs on the bed, or on the floor! After cops shot Sheila dead in a mishap on the bedroom floor another doctor was summoned to the scene to pronounce her dead! The surname of the doctor in question is 'HARRIS'..

Dr Harris pronounced Sheila as being dead during the period senior officers carried out 'informatives', and was privy to the circumstances of how Sheila had been shot and killed!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 24, 2017, 07:46:PM
180 negatives still missing and unaccounted for ('THE SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM'), consisted of 581 photographs! 'THE MASTER COPY ALBUM' only had 223 photographs, so with the CCRC having 401 negatives in their possession, that's 178 more than Bambers legal team were given pre-trial! Cops cut negative strips to remove damning evidence!

Why did the police say they released all negatives if there were 180 missing ?

The 180 missing photos must show Sheila's injuries. The 400+ they released must have not shown any injuries.

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 24, 2017, 07:49:PM
June was shot 5 times in bed. Even David agrees. There is no possibility of June putting up any resistance after these shots.

'Believing Sheila had wounds probably from sharpe nails' is not enough. The photos need to show it & the experts need to confirm it. Wanting it to be true is not enough.

As said just now, Bamber's team were given all negatives. Over 400 photos. None showed any injuries to Sheila. And none of the 40 pictures on this forum show any.


Wanting it to be true is not enough , well I will have to remember that one when you go on about the bike and the wetsuit  etc etc etc


Glad you are seeing the light at last .
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 07:50:PM
June was shot 5 times in bed. Even David agrees. There is no possibility of June putting up any resistance after these shots.

'Believing Sheila had wounds probably from sharpe nails' is not enough. The photos need to show it & the experts need to confirm it. Wanting it to be true is not enough.

As said just now, Bamber's team were given all negatives. Over 400 photos. None showed any injuries to Sheila. And none of the 40 pictures on this forum show any.

The CCRC did not have 'ALL' the negatives, all 401 of them out of a maximum 581! That's 180 fewer than originally existed! Cops cut up negative strips to get rid of damning photographic evidence! Cops lied and concealed the duties performed by the first team of SOCO (DC Oakey, and DC Henderson) who photographed Sheila's body on top of the bed with only a single bullet wound to her neck, and the rifle on the bed, in between the bodies of Sheila and June! Cops moved June Bambers body onto the floor from the bed, first! This can be worked out by the fact that there exists photographs showing only Sheila's body on the bed, before PC Bird came along and photographed Sheila's body on the bedroom floor after her death scene was staged during 'informatives'!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 24, 2017, 07:51:PM
Why did the police say they released all negatives if there were 180 missing ?

The 180 missing photos must show Sheila's injuries. The 400+ they released must have not shown any injuries.
[/

Yes you are right that is a possibility .
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 24, 2017, 07:53:PM
Blood which originated from the other victims was found on Sheila's nightdress, it's all documented, the analysis was carried out by John Hayward on 6 September 1985!! All the adult victims had marks, bruising and smeared blood on their hands and arms! It was definitely Sheila that shot and killed the other four victims! But she did not shoot and kill herself, or try to shoot and kill herself, either downstairs in the kitchen, or upstairs on the bed, or on the floor! After cops shot Sheila dead in a mishap on the bedroom floor another doctor was summoned to the scene to pronounce her dead! The surname of the doctor in question is 'HARRIS'..

Why was it necessary for two doctors to pronounce her dead? Dr Craig had already performed that task. If he'd been satisfied she was dead, surely all Harris is, is yet another conspirator?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 24, 2017, 07:54:PM
The CCRC did not have 'ALL' the negatives, all 401 of them out of a maximum 581! That's 180 fewer than originally existed! Cops cut up negative strips to get rid of damning photographic evidence! Cops lied and concealed the duties performed by the first team of SOCO (DC Oakey, and DC Henderson) who photographed Sheila's body on top of the bed with only a single bullet wound to her neck, and the rifle on the bed, in between the bodies of Sheila and June! Cops moved June Bambers body onto the floor from the bed, first! This can be worked out by the fact that there exists photographs showing only Sheila's body on the bed, before PC Bird came along and photographed Sheila's body on the bedroom floor after her death scene was staged during 'informatives'!
I make it 130 if 50 were available at trial?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 07:55:PM
One thing is for certain, and that is that PC Bird was not the only cop taking photographs at the scene that morning, since DC Oakey and DC Henderson also took photographs, and a crime scene video!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 24, 2017, 07:56:PM

Wanting it to be true is not enough , well I will have to remember that one when you go on about the bike and the wetsuit  etc etc etc


Glad you are seeing the light at last .

I don't go on about the wetsuit.

I did post about the bike recently. On Nugs's thread. And created my own after Nugs didn't answer my questions.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 07:57:PM
I make it 130 if 50 were available at trial?

The 50 at trial were taken from the 223 belonging to 'THE MASTER COPY ALBUM' (581)..
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 24, 2017, 08:03:PM
Everyone agrees that none of the hundreds of released photo's show any injuries to Sheila.

None of the 40 on this forum show any. None of the 400+ Bamber's team received 6 years ago did, otherwise it would have been annonced.

But as Mike said, the police lied & didn't release all negatives. There are 180 pictures that have not been released. These must show all of Sheila's injuries underneath her undamaged nightdress.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 08:03:PM
Why was it necessary for two doctors to pronounce her dead? Dr Craig had already performed that task. If he'd been satisfied she was dead, surely all Harris is, is yet another conspirator?

Sheila wasn't physically dead when Craig pronounced her dead at 8.44am! He just assumed she was dead without performing a physical examination, whereas after 9.13am when she got shot during a mishap whilst 'informatives' were being carried out, Dr Harris was requested to attend the scene, and after performing a full physical examination he verified Sheila as being dead! This ccurred after the arrival of the Coroner's officer, PC Wright arrived at the scene at around 9.30am! The second SOCO team consisting of Cook, Bird, Davidson and Hammersley were prevented from taking control of the crime scene until after Dr Harris officially pronounced her as being dead, and her body set as shown in PC Birds later photographs!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 08:09:PM
Everyone agrees that none of the hundreds of released photo's show any injuries to Sheila.

None of the 40 on this forum show any. None of the 400+ Bamber's team received 6 years ago did, otherwise it would have been annonced.

But as Mike said, the police lied & didn't release all negatives. There are 180 pictures that have not been released. These must show all of Sheila's injuries underneath her undamaged nightdress.

Yes, many of the missing 180 or so negatives captured the injuries and marks being spoken about! Some, however, were abusive photographs where cops posed for selfies next to the bodies of the victims in provocative poses! They abused the bodies of the deceased and used them like props in a theatre production!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 24, 2017, 08:11:PM
Yes, many of the missing 180 or so negatives captured the injuries and marks being spoken about! Some, however, were abusive photographs where cops posed for selfies next to the bodies of the victims in provocative poses! They abused the bodies of the deceased and used them like props in a theatre production!

That was unsensitive of the police.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 24, 2017, 08:13:PM
June was shot 5 times in bed. Even David agrees. There is no possibility of June putting up any resistance after these shots.

'Believing Sheila had wounds probably from sharpe nails' is not enough. The photos need to show it & the experts need to confirm it. Wanting it to be true is not enough.

As said just now, Bamber's team were given all negatives. Over 400 photos. None showed any injuries to Sheila. And none of the 40 pictures on this forum show any.
'Believing' and 'Wanting it to be true' is not the way I work Adam, neither do I make up my own scenarios and try to force everything else to fit into them. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 24, 2017, 08:16:PM
'Believing' and 'Wanting it to be true' is not the way I work Adam, neither do I make up my own scenarios and try to force everything else to fit into them.

I know you won't say how Sheila committed the massacre. Although believe June scratched Sheila multiple times during it.

I did create a Bamber scenario a long time ago. Nothing forced about it. Always happy to re submit it.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 08:19:PM
That was unsensitive of the police.

Yes, it angered Jeremy when he found out about the use of his families bodies like props in a theatre production! Now, with this in mind, imagine how these antics impacted upon the staging of Sheila Caffells body, there on the bedroom floor with the rifle! The staging of Sheila's death as a suicide on the bedroom floor took place after Dr Harris verified her death, and of course, after attempts had been made to keep her alive by placing her body in the recovery position on the right side! How is it possible, having regard to these matters for Jeremy to have staged his sister's body with the rifle, seven hours or more, earlier?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 24, 2017, 08:21:PM
Sheila wasn't physically dead when Craig pronounced her dead at 8.44am! He just assumed she was dead without performing a physical examination, whereas after 9.13am when she got shot during a mishap whilst 'informatives' were being carried out, Dr Harris was requested to attend the scene, and after performing a full physical examination he verified Sheila as being dead! This ccurred after the arrival of the Coroner's officer, PC Wright arrived at the scene at around 9.30am! The second SOCO team consisting of Cook, Bird, Davidson and Hammersley were prevented from taking control of the crime scene until after Dr Harris officially pronounced her as being dead, and her body set as shown in PC Birds later photographs!

Totally, irrefutably, UNBELIEVABLE. It sounds like a badly produced comedy sketch. An undead body shot by police, assumed dead. A doctor called in to pronounce life extinct does what he's asked to do -one has to ask WHY he asked to pronounce her dead whilst she was still alive? First doctor leaves. Body comes back to life and is accidentally shot AGAIN by police. They call in yet ANOTHER doctor to pronounce her dead. Did second doctor never think to question WHY the rest of the family had been pronounced dead by first doctor?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 24, 2017, 08:25:PM
I know you won't say how Sheila committed the massacre. Although believe June scratched Sheila multiple times during it.

I did create a Bamber scenario a long time ago. Nothing forced about it. Always happy to re submit it.
No thanks as I have said before I don't see the point of scenarios they are only an individual's suggestions of what may have happened and generally not of much real value.

Until very recently I was pretty convinced that JB committed the massacre all on his own and that Sheila and June did not have fight wounds so if I had given you a scenario it would have been nul and void by now. 

As I have said I am covninced that Sheila has fight wounds, have been told from a trustworthy source that June had similar fight wounds and have seen that Nevill undoubtedly had fight wounds and JB did not have any wounds of that order.  Beyond that what do I know?  Was JB involved? it is unlikely but he may have been, I am not clairvoyant and my opinion is just that.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 24, 2017, 08:34:PM
No thanks as I have said before I don't see the point of scenarios they are only an individual's suggestions of what may have happened and generally not of much real value.

Until very recently I was pretty convinced that JB committed the massacre all on his own and that Sheila and June did not have fight wounds so if I had given you a scenario it would have been nul and void by now. 

As I have said I am covninced that Sheila has fight wounds, have been told from a trustworthy source that June had similar fight wounds and have seen that Nevill undoubtedly had fight wounds and JB did not have any wounds of that order.  Beyond that what do I know?  Was JB involved? it is unlikely but he may have been, I am not clairvoyant and my opinion is just that.

Who is you're 'reliable source' or is that a secret ?

Do you think Vanezis & the police lied about Sheila not having any injuries. And the police didn't release all negatives in 2011 ? Must admit over 400 pictures sounds a lot to me.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 24, 2017, 08:36:PM
We've always suggested that Neville fled the bedroom and JB gave chase. Perhaps Neville got out of bed and went to confront JB with June moving away to the far side of the room. Then JB runs out of bullets and flees to the kitchen to reload whilst Neville gives Chase. June was then shot again on JBs return to the bedroom.  :-\
Hi hartley
what was Neville doing whilst JB reloaded and returned to the bedroom to shoot June.  Sorry if I am missing the point.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 24, 2017, 08:40:PM
Hi hartley
what was Neville doing whilst JB reloaded and returned to the bedroom to shoot June.  Sorry if I am missing the point.

Nevill was dead. After the kitchen fight & 4 more head shots.

June may have been dead by the time Bamber returned upstairs, after being shot 5 times in bed. However she walked a few feet before being shot again twice in the head.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 24, 2017, 08:46:PM
Nevill was dead. After the kitchen fight & 4 more head shots.

June may have been dead by the time Bamber returned upstairs, after being shot 5 times in bed. However she walked a few feet before being shot again twice in the head.

Adam read the post made by hartley and you will see the point of my question to him perhaps he was just being funny.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 24, 2017, 08:49:PM
Totally, irrefutably, UNBELIEVABLE. It sounds like a badly produced comedy sketch. An undead body shot by police, assumed dead. A doctor called in to pronounce life extinct does what he's asked to do -one has to ask WHY he asked to pronounce her dead whilst she was still alive? First doctor leaves. Body comes back to life and is accidentally shot AGAIN by police. They call in yet ANOTHER doctor to pronounce her dead. Did second doctor never think to question WHY the rest of the family had been pronounced dead by first doctor?
It gets better, in walks inspector Clouseau and says to the cop who just shot her "You killed her in a rit of fealous jage"
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 24, 2017, 08:49:PM
Adam read the post made by hartley and you will see the point of my question to him perhaps he was just being funny.

If Bamber went down to reload, he didn't get the chance to before Nevill confronted him. Otherwise there would be no kitchen fight.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 24, 2017, 09:06:PM
Who is you're 'reliable source' or is that a secret ?

Do you think Vanezis & the police lied about Sheila not having any injuries. And the police didn't release all negatives in 2011 ? Must admit over 400 pictures sounds a lot to me.
My reliable source is Roch, it's no big deal.  How do I know whether Vanezis and/or the police lied?  It is strange that we are told she had no injuries when she obvs did have and I believe so did June but beyond that I don't know what went on. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 09:09:PM
Totally, irrefutably, UNBELIEVABLE. It sounds like a badly produced comedy sketch. An undead body shot by police, assumed dead. A doctor called in to pronounce life extinct does what he's asked to do -one has to ask WHY he asked to pronounce her dead whilst she was still alive? First doctor leaves. Body comes back to life and is accidentally shot AGAIN by police. They call in yet ANOTHER doctor to pronounce her dead. Did second doctor never think to question WHY the rest of the family had been pronounced dead by first doctor?

Sarcasm won't get you anywhere!

Read the police message logs, two bodies downstairs, three bodies upstairs by 8.10am! Sheila's apparent death downstairs in the kitchen, described as a suicide! If she died downstairs as noted, then how did her body end up on the bed upstairs in the main bedroom in time for the police surgeon to pronounce her dead, yet again (8.44am) without making any physical examination of her body? Then, once DS Jones, and DC Clark entered the main bedroom they see the bodies of both Sheila and June laid out on top of the bed, Sheila shot once, not twice! The rifle on the bed in-between both bodies! So, Sheila was not dead by that stage! She had not yet received the instantly fatal shot beneath the point of her chin! How can anybody say with a degree of certainty that she had physically died after being shot across the throat with bullet PV/20? It must be clear to everybody that that first shot across Sheila's neck did not kill her! It stunned her, and sent her into temporary unconsciousness! Sufficient time passed with her in that state that cops mistakenly thought she was dead! Her apparent death as a result of this shooting incident upon entry to the kitchen (officers report, 1612) was regarded as a suicide because according to the officer, Sheila had pulled the muzzle of his weapon in towards her own throat, as if she wanted him to shoot her! She collapsed upon receiving that first shot, but she was only stunned, not dead! Hence why she was able to recover sufficiently enough to make her way up to her parents bedroom by way of the small spiral staircase in the corner of the kitchen! When she reached the main bedroom she collapsed into unconsciousness on the bed next to June Bamber! The disappearence of Sheila's body from the kitchen unhinged the firearm officers! It took a further 15 minutes for police to relocate her on the bed upstairs! The police surgeon Dr Craig arrived and pronounced her as being dead at 8.44am, without giving her body the attention it deserves, other than to her body was on the far side of the bed, with what appeared to be a wound on her neck, with a rifle laying alongside her body! Well, that might be true! But if it was true, Sheila had not yet received the fatal under the chin shot which would snuff her life out completely! She hadn't received that fatal second shot by the time DS Jones, and DC Clark viewed her body at about 9.10am, She didn't receive the second shot until after DC Oakey and DC Henderson photographed Sheila's body on top of the bed from the vantage point at the foot of the bed, she was still barely alive right up until the moment her body was transferred onto the bedroom floor and the anshuzt rifle brought to her body as a gauging exercise during 'informatives' being conducted by senior officers! Sheila was still barely alive right up until 9.13am that morning when an unchecked anshuzt rifle detonated a shot beneath her chin sending a bullet into her brain! Once cops saw the way blood started to pump out of the fresh wound and her mouth, it suddenly dawned on them that she had still been alive all along, albeit unconscious! The rifle was stood at the main bedroom window! Sheila's body was placed in the recovery position, Oakey and Henderson kept filming and taking photographs! The rifle was photographed resting at the main bedroom window, before the arrival of Dr HARRIS, and the staging of Sheila's death scene there on the main bedroom floor with that rifle from the bedroom window!



Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 24, 2017, 09:17:PM
If anyone wants to read Dr Craig's statement on his observation of Sheila it's here.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1187.0;attach=6164
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 24, 2017, 09:17:PM
My reliable source is Roch, it's no big deal.  How do I know whether Vanezis and/or the police lied?  It is strange that we are told she had no injuries when she obvs did have and I believe so did June but beyond that I don't know what went on.
.

Cheers for the positive words Maggie.  And thanks for not having cataracts.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 24, 2017, 09:20:PM
My reliable source is Roch, it's no big deal.  How do I know whether Vanezis and/or the police lied?  It is strange that we are told she had no injuries when she obvs did have and I believe so did June but beyond that I don't know what went on.

Maggie how can we trust anything he says (Vanezis) when the report when Sheila was guilty was the opposite to the one he wrote when Jeremy was guilty :(
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 24, 2017, 09:21:PM
Sarcasm won't get you anywhere!

Read the police message logs, two bodies downstairs, three bodies upstairs by 8.10am! Sheila's apparent death downstairs in the kitchen, described as a suicide! If she died downstairs as noted, then how did her body end up on the bed upstairs in the main bedroom in time for the police surgeon to pronounce her dead, yet again (8.44am) without making any physical examination of her body? Then, once DS Jones, and DC Clark entered the main bedroom they see the bodies of both Sheila and June laid out on top of the bed, Sheila shot once, not twice! The rifle on the bed in-between both bodies! So, Sheila was not dead by that stage! She had not yet received the instantly fatal shot beneath the point of her chin! How can anybody say with a degree of certainty that she had physically died after being shot across the throat with bullet PV/20? It must be clear to everybody that that first shot across Sheila's neck did not kill her! It stunned her, and sent her into temporary unconsciousness! Sufficient time passed with her in that state that cops mistakenly thought she was dead! Her apparent death as a result of this shooting incident upon entry to the kitchen (officers report, 1612) was regarded as a suicide because according to the officer, Sheila had pulled the muzzle of his weapon in towards her own throat, as if she wanted him to shoot her! She collapsed upon receiving that first shot, but she was only stunned, not dead! Hence why she was able to recover sufficiently enough to make her way up to her parents bedroom by way of the small spiral staircase in the corner of the kitchen! When she reached the main bedroom she collapsed into unconsciousness on the bed next to June Bamber! The disappearence of Sheila's body from the kitchen unhinged the firearm officers! It took a further 15 minutes for police to relocate her on the bed upstairs! The police surgeon Dr Craig arrived and pronounced her as being dead at 8.44am, without giving her body the attention it deserves, other than to her body was on the far side of the bed, with what appeared to be a wound on her neck, with a rifle laying alongside her body! Well, that might be true! But if it was true, Sheila had not yet received the fatal under the chin shot which would snuff her life out completely! She hadn't received that fatal second shot by the time DS Jones, and DC Clark viewed her body at about 9.10am, She didn't receive the second shot until after DC Oakey and DC Henderson photographed Sheila's body on top of the bed from the vantage point at the foot of the bed, she was still barely alive right up until the moment her body was transferred onto the bedroom floor and the anshuzt rifle brought to her body as a gauging exercise during 'informatives' being conducted by senior officers! Sheila was still barely alive right up until 9.13am that morning when an unchecked anshuzt rifle detonated a shot beneath her chin sending a bullet into her brain! Once cops saw the way blood started to pump out of the fresh wound and her mouth, it suddenly dawned on them that she had still been alive all along, albeit unconscious! The rifle was stood at the main bedroom window! Sheila's body was placed in the recovery position, Oakey and Henderson kept filming and taking photographs! The rifle was photographed resting at the main bedroom window, before the arrival of Dr HARRIS, and the staging of Sheila's death scene there on the main bedroom floor with that rifle from the bedroom window!

I don't believe Sheila was EVER downstairs. You use the expression "barely alive". However much you choose to make light of the first wound, it was MORTAL. I fail to see, even IF she'd ever been downstairs, how, "barely alive", unable to hold her head up, she'd have managed to haul herself surreptitiously, up a flight of stairs without being detected.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 24, 2017, 09:22:PM
Maggie how can we trust anything he says (Vanezis) when the report when Sheila was guilty was the opposite to the one he wrote when Jeremy was guilty :(
Not seen these can you post them?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 24, 2017, 09:23:PM
.

Cheers for the positive words Maggie.  And thanks for not having cataracts.

Hahaha Roch I can see the scratches and gauge marks and I do have cataracts  :)) :)) :))
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 24, 2017, 09:24:PM
Hahaha Roch I can see the scratches and gauge marks and I do have cataracts  :)) :)) :))

No offence meant Susan  8)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 09:25:PM
I don't believe Sheila was EVER downstairs. You use the expression "barely alive". However much you choose to make light of the first wound, it was MORTAL. I fail to see, even IF she'd ever been downstairs, how, "barely alive", unable to hold her head up, she'd have managed to haul herself surreptitiously, up a flight of stairs without being detected.

You need to read the defence experts opinion, it differs from your interpretation considerably! He reckoned she could have still been walking about half an hour after receiving that first shot across the neck! I totally agree with him!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on July 24, 2017, 09:27:PM
You need to read the defence experts opinion, it differs from your interpretation considerably! He reckoned she could have still been walking about half an hour after receiving that first shot across the neck! I totally agree with him!
Where is the half an hour time span mentioned?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 24, 2017, 09:28:PM
You need to read the defence experts opinion, it differs from your interpretation considerably! He reckoned she could have still been walking about half an hour after receiving that first shot across the neck! I totally agree with him!

 Well, of course you do, but Vanezis said, recently, she never moved after the first shot. I totally agree with him.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 24, 2017, 09:29:PM
Not seen these can you post them?

Justice I am not capable of copying and pasting but I remember it was Caroline who drew our attention to them the first one said Sheila had a blood stained palm and a palm print on her nightie which may have been transferred from her palm Sheila was the perp at this time then when JB was guilty is typed report said Sheila's hands were clean.  Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 24, 2017, 09:31:PM
No offence meant Susan  8)

Hahaha Roch no offence taken don't do offend life is too short
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 09:31:PM
You need to read the defence experts opinion, it differs from your interpretation considerably! He reckoned she could have still been walking about half an hour after receiving that first shot across the neck! I totally agree with him!

I know it's true what he said, because Sheila was reported as killed downstairs in the kitchen, her death described as a suicide, and she ended up in the main bedroom!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 24, 2017, 09:32:PM
Justice I am not capable of copying and pasting but I remember it was Caroline who drew our attention to them the first one said Sheila had a blood stained palm and a palm print on her nightie which may have been transferred from her palm Sheila was the perp at this time then when JB was guilty is typed report said Sheila's hands were clean.  Hope this helps.
Ok thanks Susan, maybe Caroline can pick this up, I thought there was another written statement somewhere
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 09:37:PM
Well, of course you do, but Vanezis said, recently, she never moved after the first shot. I totally agree with him.

That's not what the defence expert said, he said Sheila could have still been moving around for up to half an hour after the first shot, or the infliction of the second fatal shot! Why should I believe Venezis explanation when he altered his evidence to fit both scenarios, four murders and a suicide, then five murders? He also recovered a piece of badly fragmented bullet from Sheila's neck (PV/20) which turned into a whole bullet six weeks later, and Venezis remained tight lipped about the irregularity!

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 09:40:PM
That's not what the defence expert said, he said Sheila could have still been moving around for up to half an hour after the first shot, or the infliction of the second fatal shot! Why should I believe Venezis explanation when he altered his evidence to fit both scenarios, four murders and a suicide, then five murders? He also recovered a piece of badly fragmented bullet from Sheila's neck (PV/20) which turned into a whole bullet six weeks later, and Venezis remained tight lipped about the irregularity!

I believe professor Knights account over Venezia's account!

Venezis was never aware of the police message log account where two bodies were reportedly found dead upon entry to the kitchen, the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female, a murder, and a suicide! If he had done he would have needed to revise he account to explain how Sheila's body ended up dead in the main bedroom upstairs!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 24, 2017, 09:40:PM
Ok thanks Susan, maybe Caroline can pick this up, I thought there was another written statement somewhere

Yes, that is quite true, although he didn't say her palms were blood stained (exactly) he did allude to it by stating that he thought the stain on her nightdress came from her palm. This is why his notes are important in this instance because they were written on the day of the murders - it was later when he said her hands were clean. His written statement does differ slightly in this respect so I believe his notes are a more reliable source of evidence.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 24, 2017, 09:41:PM
That's not what the defence expert said, he said Sheila could have still been moving around for up to half an hour after the first shot, or the infliction of the second fatal shot! Why should I believe Venezis explanation when he altered his evidence to fit both scenarios, four murders and a suicide, then five murders? He also recovered a piece of badly fragmented bullet from Sheila's neck (PV/20) which turned into a whole bullet six weeks later, and Venezis remained tight lipped about the irregularity!
Did the defence expert examine Sheila Mike?  Was he there when the autopsy was performed?  Or did he go by Vanezis's notes and observations?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 09:41:PM
Where is the half an hour time span mentioned?

In professor Knights sworn testimony!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 09:43:PM
Did the defence expert examine Sheila Mike?  Was he there when the autopsy was performed?  Or did he go by Vanezis's notes and observations?

Was Venezis there at the farmhouse when cops reported finding two bodies upon entry to the kitchen? The body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female, a murder, and a suicide? Only three bodies upstairs by 8.10am?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 24, 2017, 09:44:PM
Yes, that is quite true, although he didn't say her palms were blood stained (exactly) he did allude to it by stating that he thought the stain on her nightdress came from her palm. This is why his notes are important in this instance because they were written on the day of the murders - it was later when he said her hands were clean. His written statement does differ slightly in this respect so I believe his notes are a more reliable source of evidence.
Thanks Caroline, I can't read his writing, are those the ones that got nicked?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 24, 2017, 09:44:PM
Ok thanks Susan, maybe Caroline can pick this up, I thought there was another written statement somewhere
Justice you could be right about another written statement I just remember Caroline posting about the two reports being the exact opposite and she always posted facts but she will remember where they are I am hopeless at finding documents.  Sorry.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 24, 2017, 09:45:PM
That's not what the defence expert said, he said Sheila could have still been moving around for up to half an hour after the first shot, or the infliction of the second fatal shot! Why should I believe Venezis explanation when he altered his evidence to fit both scenarios, four murders and a suicide, then five murders? He also recovered a piece of badly fragmented bullet from Sheila's neck (PV/20) which turned into a whole bullet six weeks later, and Venezis remained tight lipped about the irregularity!

He may have said "could". He never said "DID".  I see the above as a mix of fact coupled with tweaked fact to make it fit the way you want it to be seen.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 24, 2017, 09:45:PM
My reliable source is Roch, it's no big deal.  How do I know whether Vanezis and/or the police lied?  It is strange that we are told she had no injuries when she obvs did have and I believe so did June but beyond that I don't know what went on.

Well the 40 pictures on this forum show no injuries on Sheila's hands, feet, arms, legs,neck, shoulders & face.

No one suggested the blood smudges on Sheila's arm were injuries until Bill did. Roch is now running with this full throttle.  Guilters don't believe they are injuries & the experts didn't report any. But as Roch, they are part of the industrial frame.

The 400+ released photos to Bamber don't show any injuries otherwise the OS would have annonced it. But Mike has inside information that 180 photos have not been released. These must be the photos Bill has seen of Sheila's scratches underneath her undamaged nightie.

Hopefully Roch will share his source on the forum.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 24, 2017, 09:50:PM
Was Venezis there at the farmhouse when cops reported finding two bodies upon entry to the kitchen? The body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female, a murder, and a suicide? Only three bodies upstairs by 8.10am?
No 100 per cent he wasnt, he was mad about that, who was to blame for not calling a pathologist or Ballistics?  My question was did the defence expert examine Sheila himself or did he rely on what Vanezis wrote or described?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 24, 2017, 09:56:PM
No 100 per cent he wasnt, he was mad about that, who was to blame for not calling a pathologist or Ballistics?  My question was did the defence expert examine Sheila himself or did he rely on what Vanezis wrote or described?

He relied upon his knowlege and expertise, and gave his expert opinion!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 24, 2017, 10:02:PM
Well the 40 pictures on this forum show no injuries on Sheila's hands, feet, arms, legs,neck, shoulders & face.

No one suggested the blood smudges on Sheila's arm were injuries until Bill did. Roch is now running with this full throttle.  Guilters don't believe they are injuries & the experts didn't report any. But as Roch, they are part of the industrial frame.

The 400+ released photos to Bamber don't show any injuries otherwise the OS would have annonced it. But Mike has inside information that 180 photos have not been released. These must be the photos Bill has seen of Sheila's scratches underneath her undamaged nightie.

Hopefully Roch will share his source on the forum.
I'd answer you but I can't seem to stop yawning.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 24, 2017, 10:05:PM
Thanks Caroline, I can't read his writing, are those the ones that got nicked?

Nothing got nicked.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 24, 2017, 10:20:PM
Hi hartley
what was Neville doing whilst JB reloaded and returned to the bedroom to shoot June.  Sorry if I am missing the point.

I'm suggesting that maybe it was Jeremy running downstairs with Neville in pursuit, rather than the other way around.

I don't know if Neville would flee leaving June in danger, so maybe he didn't.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on July 24, 2017, 10:45:PM
I'm suggesting that maybe it was Jeremy running downstairs with Neville in pursuit, rather than the other way around.

I don't know if Neville would flee leaving June in danger, so maybe he didn't.
Could he have had more bullets in his pockets after he discharged the first ten? Did he need to get to that kitchen worktop to reload? It always looked staged to me.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 24, 2017, 11:10:PM
Any takers?

 ::)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 24, 2017, 11:19:PM
::)
My take on this Roch it would be a guess and so would anyone else's, it's quite possible all sorts happened after the first shot, Mike has Sheila running about half hour after being shot so work that out.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 24, 2017, 11:52:PM
Where is the half an hour time span mentioned?
His trial testimony is here to read Steve, I will let you judge how long he thinks, he's very vague on the half hour because, as I said Vanezis did the autopsy and the jugular was cut causing a lot of blood loss this would result in death in seconds or minutes.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=7008.0
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 25, 2017, 12:23:AM
His trial testimony is here to read Steve, I will let you judge how long he thinks, he's very vague on the half hour because, as I said Vanezis did the autopsy and the jugular was cut causing a lot of blood loss this would result in death in seconds or minutes.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=7008.0
Does it state anywhere that Sheila would have died that quickly after the first shot? I can't read the link you put up.  The external jugular vein was shaved which would cause bleeding and it is an important vein but it is not an artery. Blood would not have shot or poured out as blood from an artery but would have bled out over a longer time. Veins don't pump blood as arteries do but rather the blood flows back towards the heart.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on July 25, 2017, 12:53:AM
Does it state anywhere that Sheila would have died that quickly after the first shot? I can't read the link you put up.  The external jugular vein was shaved which would cause bleeding and it is an important vein but it is not an artery. Blood would not have shot or poured out as blood from an artery but would have bled out over a longer time. Veins don't pump blood as arteries do but rather the blood flows back towards the heart.

Mr Justice Drake: An hour..half an hour..?

Knight: The limit is whether in fact,  when the first wound would have caused death. Now that could be a long time, because this, although there was perhaps-if the external jugular was cut, then possibly you could limit that to a few minutes rather than half an hour, but the answer is I do not know because I do not know the extent of the bleeding from that wound.

Drake: But it could be from all you know half an hour or more, the interval?

Knight: I think that is excessive in view of the fact that Dr. Vanezis told us the external jugular was damaged by that lower wound, but I certainly put a number of minutes on it, many minutes, but I can't be more exact than that.

Drake: I am only asking you (as indeed Mr. Rivlin is) to give us the limits as nearly as you can.

Knight: A few seconds to a few minutes.

Drake: A few seconds to a few minutes?

Knight: Yes.

Drake: And you have really replied to us that you think half an hour would be too much?


Knight: Too much.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 25, 2017, 01:01:AM
Mr Justice Drake: An hour..half an hour..?

Knight: The limit is whether in fact,  when the first wound would have caused death. Now that could be a long time, because this, although there was perhaps-if the external jugular was cut, then possibly you could limit that to a few minutes rather than half an hour, but the answer is I do not know because I do not know the extent of the bleeding from that wound.

Drake: But it could be from all you know half an hour or more, the interval?

Knight: I think that is excessive in view of the fact that Dr. Vanezis told us the external jugular was damaged by that lower wound, but I certainly put a number of minutes on it, many minutes, but I can't be more exact than that.

Drake: I am only asking you (as indeed Mr. Rivlin is) to give us the limits as nearly as you can.

Knight: A few seconds to a few minutes.

Drake: A few seconds to a few minutes?

Knight: Yes.

Drake: And you have really replied to us that you think half an hour would be too much?


Knight: Too much.
Thank you for that Steve.
It sounds like an educated guess by Knight to me.  Think the answer was they didn't know.  It would depend on the severity of the damage to the jugular vein for a start.  I don't believe she could have moved much after such a trauma to her throat/neck. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 25, 2017, 01:15:AM
Thank you for that Steve.
It sounds like an educated guess by Knight to me.  Think the answer was they didn't know.  It would depend on the severity of the damage to the jugular vein for a start.  I don't believe she could have moved much after such a trauma to her throat/neck.
Knights testimony is obsolete in this respect.

Shelia would have had five to ten seconds before she would pass out from blood loss. This is from a contemporary study on multiple gunshot suicides.

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Harry on July 25, 2017, 05:50:AM
One might believe 2011 is a tad too late for EP/CCRC to provide negatives for lab blow-up?

If Bamber's defence have the negatives they should be able produce high resolution images showing that the skin is broken, leaving no room for any doubt. If they have had them since 2011 one would think that the matter would have been settled four years ago. A year to figure out the obvious and and a year to let people know about it.

The same applies where the wet blood argument is concerned. If there are now scores of "enhanced" wet blood photos, you might think they might ask another pathologist to confirm or deny that the blood is wet.

I have always suspected that the pathologists in this case were only allowed to see poor quality images. Well, now is the chance to show them pictures which will enable them to draw conclusions.

Guilters are sneaky smart. Notice how they have been trying to kid people that the jury and the pathologists actually saw high resolution pictures. It's not true.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gTpj3YmRDg
Here is a professor who can tell you with categorical certainty that a skull fracture occurred after death and not before, even though the person died over two thousand years ago.

What Bamber needs is a guy to come on television and show everybody the proof that that he is innocent. It will start a public debate which may lead to an acquittal, when it becomes clear that there is nowhere for the liars to hide.

My point is that high resolution photographs will enable experts to arrive at conclusions, but only if they are allowed to see them.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 25, 2017, 08:32:AM
If Bamber's defence have the negatives they should be able produce high resolution images showing that the skin is broken, leaving no room for any doubt. If they have had them since 2011 one would think that the matter would have been settled four years ago. A year to figure out the obvious and and a year to let people know about it.

The same applies where the wet blood argument is concerned. If there are now scores of "enhanced" wet blood photos, you might think they might ask another pathologist to confirm or deny that the blood is wet.

I have always suspected that the pathologists in this case were only allowed to see poor quality images. Well, now is the chance to show them pictures which will enable them to draw conclusions.

Guilters are sneaky smart. Notice how they have been trying to kid people that the jury and the pathologists actually saw high resolution pictures. It's not true.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gTpj3YmRDg
Here is a professor who can tell you with categorical certainty that a skull fracture occurred after death and not before, even though the person died over two thousand years ago.

What Bamber needs is a guy to come on television and show everybody the proof that that he is innocent. It will start a public debate which may lead to an acquittal, when it becomes clear that there is nowhere for the liars to hide.

My point is that high resolution photographs will enable experts to arrive at conclusions, but only if they are allowed to see them.
I don't think the guilters are trying to be sneaky smart, what's up with taking the word of a pathologist who, performed the autopsy, washed the body down while doing the autopsy, examined the bodies for any further injuries, said that there was no further injuries to Sheila in court. Why would he lie?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 25, 2017, 09:29:AM
Does it state anywhere that Sheila would have died that quickly after the first shot? I can't read the link you put up.  The external jugular vein was shaved which would cause bleeding and it is an important vein but it is not an artery. Blood would not have shot or poured out as blood from an artery but would have bled out over a longer time. Veins don't pump blood as arteries do but rather the blood flows back towards the heart.
Both agreed it was in an area that bled freely, although both agreed there was a lot of blood, they would have expected more blood IF there was a longer delay between shots?  Knight is all over the place with times, because in hindsight he hasn't the benefit like Vanezis of actually working with the bodies only Coloured photo's  and he admits this and concedes it would be seconds/minutes Shiela would be capable of moving.  I don't understand your wording of the vein being Shaved?  Would shaving cause that amount of blood loss? I can't pick up where they said it was Shaved, only damaged. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 25, 2017, 09:34:AM
Knights testimony is obsolete in this respect.

Shelia would have had five to ten seconds before she would pass out from blood loss. This is from a contemporary study on multiple gunshot suicides.
It sort of scuppers Mikes belief that Sheila was shot once down stairs on entry and much later after 9.15 am while layed on the bed.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 25, 2017, 09:36:AM
Knights testimony is obsolete in this respect.

Shelia would have had five to ten seconds before she would pass out from blood loss. This is from a contemporary study on multiple gunshot suicides.
Definitely if she was sitting she would have very quickly lost consciousness i.e.. seconds if at all , if lying flat and still, maybe a few mins?  :-[o Highly unlikely if conscious she would lie still, survival instinct would be to try to move imo.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 25, 2017, 09:47:AM
If Bamber's defence have the negatives they should be able produce high resolution images showing that the skin is broken, leaving no room for any doubt. If they have had them since 2011 one would think that the matter would have been settled four years ago. A year to figure out the obvious and and a year to let people know about it.

The same applies where the wet blood argument is concerned. If there are now scores of "enhanced" wet blood photos, you might think they might ask another pathologist to confirm or deny that the blood is wet.

I have always suspected that the pathologists in this case were only allowed to see poor quality images. Well, now is the chance to show them pictures which will enable them to draw conclusions.

Guilters are sneaky smart. Notice how they have been trying to kid people that the jury and the pathologists actually saw high resolution pictures. It's not true.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gTpj3YmRDg
Here is a professor who can tell you with categorical certainty that a skull fracture occurred after death and not before, even though the person died over two thousand years ago.

What Bamber needs is a guy to come on television and show everybody the proof that that he is innocent. It will start a public debate which may lead to an acquittal, when it becomes clear that there is nowhere for the liars to hide.

My point is that high resolution photographs will enable experts to arrive at conclusions, but only if they are allowed to see them.

Obviously the 400+ negatives the police gave to Bamber in 2011 did not benefit him. The police said this was all the negatives. Mike says the police are lying & there are 180 photo's the police have not released. Hopefully Mike will provide the source for this soon.

The pathologist didn't need to see any photos. They examined the body.

Guilters have not said what the jury were shown or not shown. No one knows. I assume the defence had access to the photos as well.

People such as AH & Eric Allison have gone on TV & said Bamber is innocent. Without success.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 25, 2017, 09:51:AM
Both agreed it was in an area that bled freely, although both agreed there was a lot of blood, they would have expected more blood IF there was a longer delay between shots?  Knight is all over the place with times, because in hindsight he hasn't the benefit like Vanezis of actually working with the bodies only Coloured photo's  and he admits this and concedes it would be seconds/minutes Shiela would be capable of moving.  I don't understand your wording of the vein being Shaved?  Would shaving cause that amount of blood loss? I can't pick up where they said it was Shaved, only damaged.
I saw the word 'shaved' used in a descriptuon on here describing Sheila's injury year's ago and it stuck in my head but I have always assumed it was just another word for cut or ruptured...... same result.
No argument it meant anything other than ruptured etc.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 25, 2017, 09:52:AM
I'm suggesting that maybe it was Jeremy running downstairs with Neville in pursuit, rather than the other way around.

I don't know if Neville would flee leaving June in danger, so maybe he didn't.

Hartley thanks for that I did wonder after I had posted you were suggesting an alternative.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 25, 2017, 09:54:AM
If Bamber's defence have the negatives they should be able produce high resolution images showing that the skin is broken, leaving no room for any doubt. If they have had them since 2011 one would think that the matter would have been settled four years ago. A year to figure out the obvious and and a year to let people know about it.

The same applies where the wet blood argument is concerned. If there are now scores of "enhanced" wet blood photos, you might think they might ask another pathologist to confirm or deny that the blood is wet.

I have always suspected that the pathologists in this case were only allowed to see poor quality images. Well, now is the chance to show them pictures which will enable them to draw conclusions.

Guilters are sneaky smart. Notice how they have been trying to kid people that the jury and the pathologists actually saw high resolution pictures. It's not true.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gTpj3YmRDg
Here is a professor who can tell you with categorical certainty that a skull fracture occurred after death and not before, even though the person died over two thousand years ago.

What Bamber needs is a guy to come on television and show everybody the proof that that he is innocent. It will start a public debate which may lead to an acquittal, when it becomes clear that there is nowhere for the liars to hide.

My point is that high resolution photographs will enable experts to arrive at conclusions, but only if they are allowed to see them.

Excellent post Harry. I totally agree (except with the sneaky smart line!), sitting on such evidence and posting the odd snippet for titillation isn't going to help Bamber, if they have such evidence that shows these cuts with 100% certainty, it needs to be in the public domain.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 25, 2017, 10:02:AM
http://www.petervanezis.com/

Vanezis has an unblemised record.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 25, 2017, 10:05:AM
I don't think the guilters are trying to be sneaky smart, what's up with taking the word of a pathologist who, performed the autopsy, washed the body down while doing the autopsy, examined the bodies for any further injuries, said that there was no further injuries to Sheila in court. Why would he lie?

The point about this is Justice (and it's the innocent supporters who are playing sneaky smart here), the notes were written LONG BEFORE Bamber was a suspect and EP/the relatives had time to organise ANY conspiracy and they make no mention of these cuts. The defence have had the negatives for 6 years and this is the first time a claim like this has been made. Were these pictures so compelling why would they sit on them for six years?

I agree with Harry, if these pictures show what is being claimed with 100% clarity and certainty, why sit on them or ask for them to be removed when they are scrutinised?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 25, 2017, 10:46:AM
The point about this is Justice (and it's the innocent supporters who are playing sneaky smart here), the notes were written LONG BEFORE Bamber was a suspect and EP/the relatives had time to organise ANY conspiracy and they make no mention of these cuts. The defence have had the negatives for 6 years and this is the first time a claim like this has been made. Were these pictures so compelling why would they sit on them for six years?

I agree with Harry, if these pictures show what is being claimed with 100% clarity and certainty, why sit on them or ask for them to be removed when they are scrutinised?
I find it strange how supporters can look at pictures posted on here and say without a shadow of doubt there are cuts/grazes etc on Sheila's arms/hands, yet can't read or don't want to read evidence that disputes these facts.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 25, 2017, 12:30:PM
I find it strange how supporters can look at pictures posted on here and say without a shadow of doubt there are cuts/grazes etc on Sheila's arms/hands, yet can't read or don't want to read evidence that disputes these facts.
I find it strange that anyone who questions and has a different take on some things is labelled a 'supporter' which seems to be another word for 'stupid' or the enemy. It's crazy,  surely we all have a common cause and are looking for the truth in this case.
I completely take on board and respect  what Vanizis said, I honestly cannot explain the conflicting evidence between what was used in court and the marks on Sheila's arms and also June's body. Am I supposed to dismiss the marks on Sheila's hands and arms to remain a guilter or to tell the truth as I see it ie. I have no idea  who did what or how this happened but it appears that it did.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 25, 2017, 12:53:PM
I find it strange that anyone who questions and has a different take on some things is labelled a 'supporter' which seems to be another word for 'stupid' or the enemy. It's crazy,  surely we all have a common cause and are looking for the truth in this case.
I completely take on board and respect  what Vanizis said, I honestly cannot explain the conflicting evidence between what was used in court and the marks on Sheila's arms and also June's body. Am I supposed to dismiss the marks on Sheila's hands and arms to remain a guilter or to tell the truth as I see it ie. I have no idea  who did what or how this happened but it appears that it did.
The wording supporters/guilters has been used on here for the last six years and it wasn't brought about by me, I don't normally use the wording but it seems to be the norm.  I've never seen you take offence to it before and it wasn't directed to you personally and I'm not really bothered what side of the fence your on, I just find it strange how people can go by a grainy picture and say there are cuts/grazes and a man gets labelled corrupt when all the evidence and experts says there wasn't any.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 25, 2017, 01:47:PM
I find it strange that anyone who questions and has a different take on some things is labelled a 'supporter' which seems to be another word for 'stupid' or the enemy. It's crazy,  surely we all have a common cause and are looking for the truth in this case.
I completely take on board and respect  what Vanizis said, I honestly cannot explain the conflicting evidence between what was used in court and the marks on Sheila's arms and also June's body. Am I supposed to dismiss the marks on Sheila's hands and arms to remain a guilter or to tell the truth as I see it ie. I have no idea  who did what or how this happened but it appears that it did.

There are no marks on Sheila's body. The released pictures since 1985 & the 400+ released photos in 2011 show this. Otherwise the OS would be all over the media. Forty photos are on here which are decent quality, again showing no marks.

The experts & police also said there were no marks. But appreciate this is all part of the industrial frame.

Hopefully Mike provides his source that there are 180 unreleased photos. Otherwise the BBC news source that all photos have been released will have to be accepted.

Did Roch supply a source to you that June had marks on her body. Or did he just tell you ? The COA does not mention any marks on June.

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 25, 2017, 03:41:PM
The wording supporters/guilters has been used on here for the last six years and it wasn't brought about by me, I don't normally use the wording but it seems to be the norm.  I've never seen you take offence to it before and it wasn't directed to you personally and I'm not really bothered what side of the fence your on, I just find it strange how people can go by a grainy picture and say there are cuts/grazes and a man gets labelled corrupt when all the evidence and experts says there wasn't any.

Hi Justice I can understand where you are coming from with the grainy pictures as they are grainy on my laptop too but Maggie sees them very clearly and NGB posted he could see them and he is not sitting on any fence he is impartial so in view of that I believe they exist. When I posted about the two reports I was not implying the man is corrupt I could never make a statement like that as I have not read either of them but obviously I do accept the statements were different which did not seem right to me.  I know you have not implied I said the guy was corrupt I just wanted to clarify my position and I am sure you will understand that.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 25, 2017, 04:00:PM
The wording supporters/guilters has been used on here for the last six years and it wasn't brought about by me, I don't normally use the wording but it seems to be the norm.  I've never seen you take offence to it before and it wasn't directed to you personally and I'm not really bothered what side of the fence your on, I just find it strange how people can go by a grainy picture and say there are cuts/grazes and a man gets labelled corrupt when all the evidence and experts says there wasn't any.
I haven't takemailed offence Justice. :)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 25, 2017, 04:09:PM
There are no marks on Sheila's body. The released pictures since 1985 & the 400+ released photos in 2011 show this.

What do you call this?

Don't tell me its not a mark just like a photo of Sheila's dirty feet show "perfectly clean" feet. The denialism from you is almost too extreme to be true.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 25, 2017, 04:12:PM
What do you call this?

Don't tell me its not a mark just like a photo of Sheila's dirty feet show "perfectly clean" feet. The denialism from you is almost too extreme to be true.

It's a smudge. Otherwise the OS would have said it was scratch & claim Sheila fought Nevill. They have had 32 years to say this.

Nice colour enhancement anyway.



Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 25, 2017, 04:33:PM
45: After the second injury she would have immediately fallen back. There was no evidence of any other mark or injury to Sheila Caffell's body such as might be suffered during a fight or in a scuffle.

47. The firearms officers who were the first to see her body noted that her feet and hands were "perfectly clean". Her fingernails were well manicured and not broken and there were no marks or indentations on any of her fingers. All her fingertips were clean and free from any blood, dirt or powder and there appeared to be no trace of any lead dust or coating which is usual when handling .22 ammunition.

                                                        --------------------

Not sure why I am accussed of being in denial because there is a photo of a foot with a bit of red on. Supporters are refusing to accept respected experts & the police.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 25, 2017, 04:53:PM
The point about this is Justice (and it's the innocent supporters who are playing sneaky smart here), the notes were written LONG BEFORE Bamber was a suspect and EP/the relatives had time to organise ANY conspiracy and they make no mention of these cuts. The defence have had the negatives for 6 years and this is the first time a claim like this has been made. Were these pictures so compelling why would they sit on them for six years?

I agree with Harry, if these pictures show what is being claimed with 100% clarity and certainty, why sit on them or ask for them to be removed when they are scrutinised?

The defence have npt had all of the photographic negatives, 180 are still unaccounted for!!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 25, 2017, 05:05:PM
I find it strange that anyone who questions and has a different take on some things is labelled a 'supporter' which seems to be another word for 'stupid' or the enemy. It's crazy,  surely we all have a common cause and are looking for the truth in this case.
I completely take on board and respect  what Vanizis said, I honestly cannot explain the conflicting evidence between what was used in court and the marks on Sheila's arms and also June's body. Am I supposed to dismiss the marks on Sheila's hands and arms to remain a guilter or to tell the truth as I see it ie. I have no idea  who did what or how this happened but it appears that it did.

I think this is true on bother sides - I hate the word 'guilter' - I think it's childish and I agree that just because we have a different point of view, it shouldn't lead to hostility.

I don't have to fall out with you or anyone else simply because I don't believe they are cuts and you do.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 25, 2017, 05:06:PM
The wording supporters/guilters has been used on here for the last six years and it wasn't brought about by me, I don't normally use the wording but it seems to be the norm.  I've never seen you take offence to it before and it wasn't directed to you personally and I'm not really bothered what side of the fence your on, I just find it strange how people can go by a grainy picture and say there are cuts/grazes and a man gets labelled corrupt when all the evidence and experts says there wasn't any.

I have to agree with this Justice. There was no earthly reason for him to lie.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 25, 2017, 05:07:PM
45: After the second injury she would have immediately fallen back. There was no evidence of any other mark or injury to Sheila Caffell's body such as might be suffered during a fight or in a scuffle.

47. The firearms officers who were the first to see her body noted that her feet and hands were "perfectly clean". Her fingernails were well manicured and not broken and there were no marks or indentations on any of her fingers. All her fingertips were clean and free from any blood, dirt or powder and there appeared to be no trace of any lead dust or coating which is usual when handling .22 ammunition.

                                                        --------------------

Not sure why I am accussed of being in denial because there is a photo of a foot with a bit of red on. Supporters are refusing to accept respected experts & the police.

You have seen photos to prove that her hands and feet were NOT  perfectly clean . So what is your point ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 25, 2017, 05:08:PM
The defence have npt had all of the photographic negatives, 180 are still unaccounted for!!

Well they can't be the ones being bandied about on here then can they? And that's what we're talking about.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 25, 2017, 05:32:PM
I haven't takemailed offence Justice. :)
I know you haven't Maggie, it's hard to get a point across sometimes without involving unintentionally everyone.  ;)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 25, 2017, 05:37:PM
It's a smudge.

They are not smear or swipe marks. Too well defined. What is highlighted under Sheila's arm is what you call a 'smudge'.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 25, 2017, 05:48:PM
Hi Justice I can understand where you are coming from with the grainy pictures as they are grainy on my laptop too but Maggie sees them very clearly and NGB posted he could see them and he is not sitting on any fence he is impartial so in view of that I believe they exist. When I posted about the two reports I was not implying the man is corrupt I could never make a statement like that as I have not read either of them but obviously I do accept the statements were different which did not seem right to me.  I know you have not implied I said the guy was corrupt I just wanted to clarify my position and I am sure you will understand that.
Susan I know you never said he was corrupt, it's the term defence seem to use often, we discuss topics and then the bottom line is they have either lied or corrupt.  I take on board everything NGB says and he knows I respect him tremendously, but he would not want me to say I can see cuts/grazes if I cannot see them and being the person he is and the work he does, I'm sure he admires me for debating the evidence I believe in and not just taking anyone's word that they are cuts for the sake of it.  To be truthful I've really enjoyed this topic on the forum and if anything it has made me more convinced that Sheila did not take her own life.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 25, 2017, 05:51:PM
They are not smear or swipe marks. Too well defined. What is highlighted under Sheila's arm is what you call a 'smudge'.

After 32 years forum supporters are claiming blood smudges are injuries. Someone better tell Bamber or the OS as they have missed them.

Obviously these injuries are from Sheila fighting with Nevill. As you're own diagrams have June getting shot 5 times in bed. Although you've previously supported there being no kitchen fight.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 25, 2017, 05:58:PM
Susan I know you never said he was corrupt, it's the term defence seem to use often, we discuss topics and then the bottom line is they have either lied or corrupt.  I take on board everything NGB says and he knows I respect him tremendously, but he would not want me to say I can see cuts/grazes if I cannot see them and being the person he is and the work he does, I'm sure he admires me for debating the evidence I believe in and not just taking anyone's word that they are cuts for the sake of it.  To be truthful I've really enjoyed this topic on the forum and if anything it has made me more convinced that Sheila did not take her own life.

Justice as I said it is not possible for you to say you can see the cuts and grazes when you can't and this is why I have said the picture is very grainy and I would not have seen them if not pointed out to me.  It is strange but I remember lookout saying years ago about the blood mark on Sheila's thumb but the discussion just went onto blood marks on Sheila's palm and the nightdress this was in 2013 I seem to think you were posting as Ralph at that time you joined in the discussion with Patti and Maggie but think it was because the info then came from Scot Lomax's book and he lives near you.  I have always been confused about this case but lately I am thinking Sheila did commit the murders then kill herself but it makes for great debate and my mind is open to any points made that may make me think the opposite.  NGB will respect you for expressing your views as this is what the forum needs.  Whoops I am going on too much :)) Thank you for your understanding I really appreciate it.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 25, 2017, 06:02:PM
Susan I know you never said he was corrupt, it's the term defence seem to use often, we discuss topics and then the bottom line is they have either lied or corrupt.  I take on board everything NGB says and he knows I respect him tremendously, but he would not want me to say I can see cuts/grazes if I cannot see them and being the person he is and the work he does, I'm sure he admires me for debating the evidence I believe in and not just taking anyone's word that they are cuts for the sake of it.  To be truthful I've really enjoyed this topic on the forum and if anything it has made me more convinced that Sheila did not take her own life.

Justice, we've been told -NAY! We've had it sworn to us!!!- that black is white on too many occasions to fall for that old chestnut again.....................besides which,there's only ever one black and one white. Everything else is grey area.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 25, 2017, 06:12:PM
Justice as I said it is not possible for you to say you can see the cuts and grazes when you can't and this is why I have said the picture is very grainy and I would not have seen them if not pointed out to me.  It is strange but I remember lookout saying years ago about the blood mark on Sheila's thumb but the discussion just went onto blood marks on Sheila's palm and the nightdress this was in 2013 I seem to think you were posting as Ralph at that time you joined in the discussion with Patti and Maggie but think it was because the info then came from Scot Lomax's book and he lives near you.  I have always been confused about this case but lately I am thinking Sheila did commit the murders then kill herself but it makes for great debate and my mind is open to any points made that may make me think the opposite.  NGB will respect you for expressing your views as this is what the forum needs.  Whoops I am going on too much :)) Thank you for your understanding I really appreciate it.
Scott Lomax lives about 2 miles from me and Patti about 6 miles Susan, he works for Notts council archaeologists adviser.  Must admit I used to take everyone's word as gospel, but there is two sides to every story and if anything I'm enjoying reading more for myself and not taking things for granted. Take that prof knight that the defence brought  in to counter Vanezis, he writes a book about Women almost never commit suicide by shooting, yet they bring him in to defend a woman who supposedly shoots herself twice?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 25, 2017, 06:25:PM
Scott Lomax lives about 2 miles from me Susan, he works for Notts council archaeologists adviser.  Must admit I used to take everyone's word as gospel, but there is two sides to every story and if anything I'm enjoying reading more for myself and not taking things for granted. Take that prof knight that the defence brought  in to counter Vanezis, he writes a book about Women almost never commit suicide by shooting, yet they bring him in to defend a woman who supposedly shoots herself twice?

Yeah! Clearly Prof Knight has got to grips with statistics!!! The reason "women almost never commit suicide by shooting" is because there are fewer women who have access to guns (as opposed to the number of women who have access to other means of committing suicide) but in order to make his case good he omits this part of the equation.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 25, 2017, 06:36:PM
Scott Lomax lives about 2 miles from me and Patti about 6 miles Susan, he works for Notts council archaeologists adviser.  Must admit I used to take everyone's word as gospel, but there is two sides to every story and if anything I'm enjoying reading more for myself and not taking things for granted. Take that prof knight that the defence brought  in to counter Vanezis, he writes a book about Women almost never commit suicide by shooting, yet they bring him in to defend a woman who supposedly shoots herself twice?

Justice you said you had never met him and he lived so near.  I never read his book Maggie had read it and the blood on the palm originally came from the book but as you rightly say one should make up their own mind and not take everything from books as being gospel.  Hahaha think the Defence team got lots wrong :))
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 25, 2017, 07:01:PM
Scott Lomax lives about 2 miles from me and Patti about 6 miles Susan, he works for Notts council archaeologists adviser.  Must admit I used to take everyone's word as gospel, but there is two sides to every story and if anything I'm enjoying reading more for myself and not taking things for granted. Take that prof knight that the defence brought  in to counter Vanezis, he writes a book about Women almost never commit suicide by shooting, yet they bring him in to defend a woman who supposedly shoots herself twice?

"a shot woman is a murdered woman until proven otherwise" - Bernard Knight

Gets hired by Jeremy's defence team.

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 25, 2017, 07:14:PM

91. Professor Knight, another defence witness, lent support to Dr Bradley's evidence as to the feature of excessive violence in parental killings. He also spoke of instances where the murderer (having killed their spouses in most cases) has then gone about some mundane or "ritualistic" task, such as cleaning up before committing suicide. In cross-examination he accepted the proposition contained in an article, which he himself had written some years earlier, that "women almost never commit suicide by shooting".

                                        -----------------

So Sheila may have committed the massacre naked or in underwear. As suggested by Lookout.

Then had a shower & changed into the exact same nightie you would expect her to have gone to bed in.

Not sure where Sheila read about pre suicide ritualistic cleansing. Certainly not in June's bible which was next to her.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 25, 2017, 07:18:PM
Actually Knight says about pre suicide 'cleaning up'. The kitchen certainly wasn't in a tidy state.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 25, 2017, 07:18:PM
"a shot woman is a murdered woman until proven otherwise" - Bernard Knight

Gets hired by Jeremy's defence team.
Im not saying he's bad at his job, he's probably a top bloke, but he was the wrong choice having wrote that book and he didn't have a lot to go on.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 25, 2017, 07:19:PM
They are not smear or swipe marks. Too well defined. What is highlighted under Sheila's arm is what you call a 'smudge'.

Who wrote 911 on her arm in gouges - backwards?  :o

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8526.0;attach=49532;image)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 25, 2017, 07:25:PM
Who wrote 911 on her arm in gouges - backwards?  :o

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8526.0;attach=49532;image)
Could that be Bamber totting up the number of shots he's fired?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 25, 2017, 07:32:PM
Could that be Bamber totting up the number of shots he's fired?

That's a good shout actually, maybe a handwriting expert could shed some light.  :-\
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 25, 2017, 07:32:PM
It's good that the photo has highlighted the smudge. Otherwise I would never have noticed.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 25, 2017, 07:33:PM
It's good that the photo has highlighted the smudge. Otherwise I would never have noticed.

They are awfully considerate, these anti-guilters.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 25, 2017, 07:36:PM
That's a good shout actually, maybe a handwriting expert could shed some light.  :-\
Im sure Trudie  will be approaching crowdfunding at this moment, donations please  ;D
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 25, 2017, 07:43:PM
Im sure Trudie  will be approaching crowdfunding at this moment, donations please  ;D

In the meantime they could publish a photograph of June's foot taken at the morgue and pretend it is Sheilas ............. Oh wait, they've already done that.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 25, 2017, 07:47:PM
In the meantime they could publish a photograph of June's foot taken at the morgue and pretend it is Sheilas ............. Oh wait, they've already done that.
I thought it was proven to be Sheila's foot after all Harters???
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 25, 2017, 07:49:PM
In the meantime they could publish a photograph of June's foot taken at the morgue and pretend it is Sheilas ............. Oh wait, they've already done that.
Looks like someone else has set one up?  Hope that sod who stole money out my account doesn't cotton on to this, having said that it could be a good idea for him.

https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/pt-healey-219
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: JackieD on July 25, 2017, 07:52:PM
Scott Lomax lives about 2 miles from me and Patti about 6 miles Susan, he works for Notts council archaeologists adviser.  Must admit I used to take everyone's word as gospel, but there is two sides to every story and if anything I'm enjoying reading more for myself and not taking things for granted. Take that prof knight that the defence brought  in to counter Vanezis, he writes a book about Women almost never commit suicide by shooting, yet they bring him in to defend a woman who supposedly shoots herself twice?


Justice

The indisputable facts are

Julie Mugford was a prolific liar and was a criminal before Jeremy was involved in theft

The silencer evidence is questionable

The relatives clearly hated Jeremy and set out to blacken his name

The relatives tried to sway the jury with lies

Sheila was desperately ill and it was no surprise to her husband that she committed suicide

Julie Mugford was set to get £25,000 if she persuaded the jury Jeremy was guilty

There are numerous statements that have been changed and evidence destroyed that could have been used in an appeal

Jeremy had NO history of violence unlike Sheila

Justice these are facts and why this case is under discussion by influential people right now
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 25, 2017, 07:55:PM
I thought it was proven to be Sheila's foot after all Harters???

Proven by whom Maggie?

In the hi-res images in my possession (which I can't post because it is not in my remit) it is clearly June's left foot. The three red dots are actually visible on the images of June on the forum, if you squint and stare without blinking for any length of time.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 25, 2017, 07:55:PM
In the meantime they could publish a photograph of June's foot taken at the morgue and pretend it is Sheilas ............. Oh wait, they've already done that.

No. That was BS Caroline invented.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 25, 2017, 07:59:PM
Proven by whom Maggie?

In the hi-res images in my possession (which I can't post because it is not in my remit) it is clearly June's left foot. The three red dots are actually visible on the images of June on the forum, if you squint and stare without blinking for any length of time.
Well, I always believed it was June's foot but I think it was Caroline who said it was Sheila's foot after all and it was the angle of the photograph which made it look more like \June's foot.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 25, 2017, 07:59:PM
The photos of June in the archives has her feet covered in blood. Sheila's foot just shows some hardly noticeable redness.

Also in the archives is pictures of Nevill's arm. Which certainly shows abrasions.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 25, 2017, 08:00:PM
No. That was BS Caroline invented.

I wasn't aware Caroline had even commented. I don't think you can blame her for everything.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 25, 2017, 08:03:PM
The photos of June in the archives has her feet covered in blood. Sheila's foot just shows some hardly noticeable redness.

Also in the archives is pictures of Nevill's arm. Which certainly shows abrasions.
I have seen the pictures i the archives of June's feet and Nevill's amany times thanks Adam
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 25, 2017, 08:06:PM
I have seen the pictures i the archives of June's feet and Nevill's amany times thanks Adam

I wasn't posting to you. But thanks for letting me know.

How come you never noticed Sheila's apparent scratches before ? There are 40 pictures of her in the archives.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 25, 2017, 08:10:PM
I wasn't aware Caroline had even commented. I don't think you can blame her for everything.
Caroline did comment that the foot claimed to be Sheila's looked much more like June's and I did as well, I couldn't see how Sheila's long sender foot could be the same as the rather dumpy, wide foot in the photo. 
Recently I put up a comment on here that it wasn't Sheila's foot and Caroline corrected me and said it had been proven to be Sheila's foot and the angle of the photo foreshortened the foot causing it to look very different from other photos of her feet.  Hope that's clear  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 25, 2017, 08:11:PM
Well, I always believed it was June's foot but I think it was Caroline who said it was Sheila's foot after all and it was the angle of the photograph which made it look more like \June's foot.

Your post is at odds with David's.

Nevertheless, it is not Sheilas foot.

One wonders why there are so many false claims which desperately attempt to con people in to believing that Jeremy is innocent. It's a bit weird.

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 25, 2017, 08:13:PM
Caroline did comment that the foot claimed to be Sheila's looked much more like June's and I did as well, I couldn't see how Sheila's long sender foot could be the same as the rather dumpy, wide foot in the photo. 
Recently I put up a comment on here that it wasn't Sheila's foot and Caroline corrected me and said it had been proven to be Sheila's foot and the angle of the photo foreshortened the foot causing it to look very different from other photos of her feet.  Hope that's clear  ;D ;D

I don't care what you say, it is definitely not Nevilles foot!  :))
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 25, 2017, 08:13:PM
I wasn't posting to you. But thanks for letting me know.

How come you never noticed Sheila's apparent scratches before ? There are 40 pictures of her in the archives.
e have discussed Sheila's arms and the blood on them many times but the photos on my present laptop and previous have all had very grainy photos which make it very difficult to see anything at all clearly.  I have much clearer photos on my old tablet but had never looked at the archive photos on there until very recently.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 25, 2017, 08:14:PM
I don't care what you say, it is definitely not Nevilles foot!  :))
Crispys?? :-\
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 25, 2017, 08:16:PM
Crispys?? :-\

Possibly.  ;D
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 25, 2017, 08:18:PM
Your post is at odds with David's.

Nevertheless, it is not Sheilas foot.

One wonders why there are so many false claims which desperately attempt to con people in to believing that Jeremy is innocent. It's a bit weird.
David has always maintained it was Sheila's foot.  Not sure why Caroline changed her opinion on the owner of said foot  :-\
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 25, 2017, 08:19:PM
Caroline did comment that the foot claimed to be Sheila's looked much more like June's and I did as well, I couldn't see how Sheila's long sender foot could be the same as the rather dumpy, wide foot in the photo. 
Recently I put up a comment on here that it wasn't Sheila's foot and Caroline corrected me and said it had been proven to be Sheila's foot and the angle of the photo foreshortened the foot causing it to look very different from other photos of her feet.  Hope that's clear  ;D ;D

I'm not sure that is an entirely accurate recollection:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8426.msg401592.html#msg401592
 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8426.msg401592.html#msg401592)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 25, 2017, 08:21:PM

Justice

The indisputable facts are

Julie Mugford was a prolific liar and was a criminal before Jeremy was involved in theft

The silencer evidence is questionable

The relatives clearly hated Jeremy and set out to blacken his name

The relatives tried to sway the jury with lies

Sheila was desperately ill and it was no surprise to her husband that she committed suicide

Julie Mugford was set to get £25,000 if she persuaded the jury Jeremy was guilty

There are numerous statements that have been changed and evidence destroyed that could have been used in an appeal

Jeremy had NO history of violence unlike Sheila

Justice these are facts and why this case is under discussion by influential people right now
Thanks Jackie, I could probably write you a similar list about Bamber, but, you wouldn't want to believe that list.  I will start you off, do you believe what the defence psychiatrist said, "if ever there was a psychopath it's Jeremy Bamber". Do you believe what the psychopath said who worked at full Sutton, he's 100% guilty as hell.

He has professed his innocence ever since. However, the psychiatrist engaged by Bamber’s defence team said that his very real belief that he had not committed the murders was a prime reason for diagnosing him as a psychopath.
Concluding that he did kill his family and had suppressed the knowledge until it no longer existed, he added: ‘If ever there was a psychopath, it’s Jeremy Bamber.’

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 25, 2017, 08:24:PM
I'm not sure that is an entirely accurate recollection:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8426.msg401592.html#msg401592
 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8426.msg401592.html#msg401592)
Thanks for that, my memory of it was a bit vague.   ???
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 25, 2017, 08:26:PM
David has always maintained it was Sheila's foot.  Not sure why Caroline changed her opinion on the owner of said foot  :-\

It seems that David wants it to be Sheila, and Caroline doesn't really care.

Which in itself, tells a story don't you think?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 25, 2017, 08:32:PM
No. That was BS Caroline invented.

Wow! Still obsessed? Just shows I still get to you! Great theory about Venezis not noticing 28 cuts on Sheila, you really are a CSI genius!  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 25, 2017, 08:34:PM
Your post is at odds with David's.

Nevertheless, it is not Sheilas foot.

One wonders why there are so many false claims which desperately attempt to con people in to believing that Jeremy is innocent. It's a bit weird.

Thanks Hartley, I didn't think it was, David posted some BS a while ago but thanks for clearing it up!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 25, 2017, 08:35:PM
David has always maintained it was Sheila's foot.  Not sure why Caroline changed her opinion on the owner of said foot  :-\

I haven't
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 25, 2017, 08:36:PM
It seems that David wants it to be Sheila, and Caroline doesn't really care.

Which in itself, tells a story don't you think?
Is that the one Andrew Hunter got from the CCRC?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 25, 2017, 08:39:PM
It seems that David wants it to be Sheila, and Caroline doesn't really care.

Which in itself, tells a story don't you think?

I conceded still not being sure, but I am happier with it being June's foot - it looks too old for Sheila's.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 25, 2017, 08:40:PM
Well, I always believed it was June's foot but I think it was Caroline who said it was Sheila's foot after all and it was the angle of the photograph which made it look more like \June's foot.

No, that was David.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 25, 2017, 08:40:PM
Thanks Hartley, I didn't think it was, David posted some BS a while ago but thanks for clearing it up!

You're very welcome, too much nonsense gets posted on here. What certain people are actually trying to achieve is beyond me.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 25, 2017, 08:45:PM
You're very welcome, too much nonsense gets posted on here. What certain people are actually trying to achieve is beyond me.

Self actualisation? Or maybe just a mention in Bamber The Movie?  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 25, 2017, 08:47:PM
You're very welcome, too much nonsense gets posted on here. What certain people are actually trying to achieve is beyond me.
Yes, I think a lot of myths have been cleared up this week, well for me anyway.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 25, 2017, 08:50:PM
Yes, I think a lot of myths have been cleared up this week, well for me anyway.

I haven't been about (I was on one of my secret missions), what else has been cleared up this week?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 25, 2017, 08:56:PM
I conceded still not being sure, but I am happier with it being June's foot - it looks too old for Sheila's.
I agree with that I have never been able to see how that foot could be Sheila's....  however as far as I understood you did tell me you conceded it was Sheila's foot.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 25, 2017, 09:00:PM
I haven't been about (I was on one of my secret missions), what else has been cleared up this week?
Well you've just cleared one, the testimony of both Vanezis and Knight clearly refutes Mikes claim that Sheila got shot on entry by police and stayed alive till 9.15 then got shot again,  the fact the External Jugular vein being severed.  Also the evidence from experts pathology, police  and trial evidence clearly state that there were no other injuries to Sheila, clearly dismissing Roch and Bill's claim of cuts/grazes.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 25, 2017, 09:01:PM
I agree with that I have ever been able to see how that foot could be Sheila's....  I am sooo confused..

Joking aside Maggie, it is an image taken in the morgue during PM of June's left foot. It has then been published and passed off as belonging to Sheila in a premeditated attempt to mislead people.

It is no different to many other previous attempts.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 25, 2017, 09:03:PM
Joking aside Maggie, it is an image taken in the morgue during PM of June's left foot. It has then been published and passed off as belonging to Sheila in a premeditated attempt to mislead people.

It is no different to many other previous attempts.
Well put Hartley, it doesn't help them at all, they are doing exactly what they accuse others of.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 25, 2017, 09:06:PM
Self actualisation? Or maybe just a mention in Bamber The Movie?  ;D ;D ;D

According to Maslow, SA was achieved by Lincoln, Jefferson and Einstein. There was some talk of Eleanor Roosevelt getting there, too. He never had the chance to come across any of those here who seem to think they might qualify ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 25, 2017, 09:10:PM
Well you've just cleared one, the testimony of both Vanezis and Knight clearly refutes Mikes claim that Sheila got shot on entry by police and stayed alive till 9.15 then got shot again,  the fact the External Jugular vein being severed.  Also the evidence from experts pathology, police  and trial evidence clearly state that there were no other injuries to Sheila, clearly dismissing Roch and Bill's claim of cuts/grazes.

Ah okay, well it's good to get to the bottom of things.

I did some digging on Mike's nightdress blood stain claims, it's all very confusing but JFT192%, BB1, etc refers to blood serem testing as some sort of control test to validate findings, it doesn't mean that various others blood was found on the nightdress as was claimed recently. So maybe that's another one done with.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 25, 2017, 09:12:PM
According to Maslow, SA was achieved by Lincoln, Jefferson and Einstein. There was some talk of Eleanor Roosevelt getting there, too. He never had the chance to come across any of those here who seem to think the might qualify ;D ;D ;D
Any ideas to what part I could play in the movie Jane, obviously some lead role, take into account the looks, whit and intelligence  ;)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 25, 2017, 09:18:PM
I agree with that I have never been able to see how that foot could be Sheila's....  however as far as I understood you did tell me you conceded it was Sheila's foot.

I did concede, doesn't mean I was happy about it - it just goes to prove you  shouldn't listen to anyone unless they can 100% prove what they are saying - too many amateur forensic  bullshitters. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 25, 2017, 09:21:PM
Ah okay, well it's good to get to the bottom of things.

I did some digging on Mike's nightdress blood stain claims, it's all very confusing but JFT192%, BB1, etc refers to blood serem testing as some sort of control test to validate findings, it doesn't mean that various others blood was found on the nightdress as was claimed recently. So maybe that's another one done with.
Thats a full house then, my, you have been on a secret mission, I know some might find it confusing but I know about the JFT's and BBI's  of this world.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 25, 2017, 09:22:PM
Any ideas to what part I could play in the movie Jane, obviously some lead role, take into account the looks, whit and intelligence  ;)

Were you fancying the part of someone tall, dark and devilishly devious, Justice ;)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 25, 2017, 09:30:PM
Were you fancying the part of someone tall, dark and devilishly devious, Justice ;)
Well I thought more of Stan Jones, I could be the hero and rescue everyone?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 25, 2017, 09:31:PM
Does this high quality image show scratch Mark to the aga surround?

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4302;image)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 25, 2017, 09:32:PM
Well I thought more of Stan Jones, I could be the hero and rescue everyone?

Hmmm, I was thinking Crispy, or maybe the light shade?  ;D
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 25, 2017, 09:36:PM
Hmmm, I was thinking Crispy, or maybe the light shade?  ;D

What? The one which got smashed in the kitchen or the one which has allegedly been preserved for posterity............... or whatever it is the chap calls himself?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 25, 2017, 09:46:PM
What? The one which got smashed in the kitchen or the one which has allegedly been preserved for posterity............... or whatever it is the chap calls himself?

Yeah, not sure why but I had the image of Justice getting smashed in the kitchen.  :-\
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 25, 2017, 09:46:PM
I did concede, doesn't mean I was happy about it - it just goes to prove you  shouldn't listen to anyone unless they can 100% prove what they are saying - too many amateur forensic  bullshitters.
I was confused but no probs. It's definitely a foot anyway, we can all agree about that.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 25, 2017, 09:47:PM
I was confused but no probs. It's definitely a foot anyway, we can all agree about that.

It could be a hand?  :-\  :-X
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 25, 2017, 09:51:PM
Yeah, not sure why but I had the image of Justice getting smashed in the kitchen.  :-\
Ha Ha, I'm more of a action man anyway.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 25, 2017, 09:53:PM
It could be a hand?  :-\  :-X
:-X :-X
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 25, 2017, 10:09:PM
:-X :-X

For the same reasons given, the blood stains on Sheilas hand (as described by the pathologist) are now unbelievably being presented as cuts or injuries.

This is another example of people trying to pull the wool over your eyes. A premeditated and concerted effort to manipulate.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: JackieD on July 25, 2017, 10:18:PM
Thanks Jackie, I could probably write you a similar list about Bamber, but, you wouldn't want to believe that list.  I will start you off, do you believe what the defence psychiatrist said, "if ever there was a psychopath it's Jeremy Bamber". Do you believe what the psychopath said who worked at full Sutton, he's 100% guilty as hell.

He has professed his innocence ever since. However, the psychiatrist engaged by Bamber’s defence team said that his very real belief that he had not committed the murders was a prime reason for diagnosing him as a psychopath.
Concluding that he did kill his family and had suppressed the knowledge until it no longer existed, he added: ‘If ever there was a psychopath, it’s Jeremy Bamber.’


You would obviously have to supply proof of Everything you have said but you won't and obviously from the time you contacted my you have shown you are NOT an impartial poster
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: JackieD on July 25, 2017, 10:20:PM
Thanks Jackie, I could probably write you a similar list about Bamber, but, you wouldn't want to believe that list.  I will start you off, do you believe what the defence psychiatrist said, "if ever there was a psychopath it's Jeremy Bamber". Do you believe what the psychopath said who worked at full Sutton, he's 100% guilty as hell.

He has professed his innocence ever since. However, the psychiatrist engaged by Bamber’s defence team said that his very real belief that he had not committed the murders was a prime reason for diagnosing him as a psychopath.
Concluding that he did kill his family and had suppressed the knowledge until it no longer existed, he added: ‘If ever there was a psychopath, it’s Jeremy Bamber.’

Do you agree my facts are spot on
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 25, 2017, 10:29:PM
Do you agree my facts are spot on
What facts? 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 25, 2017, 11:05:PM
This is another example of people trying to pull the wool over your eyes. A premeditated and concerted effort to manipulate.

And here is another example.

In the hi-res images in my possession (which I can't post because it is not in my remit) it is clearly June's left foot. The three red dots are actually visible on the images of June on the forum, if you squint and stare without blinking for any length of time.

I know ya lying  8)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 25, 2017, 11:14:PM
And here is another example.

I know ya lying  8)

It's not an example, merely a complete failure of your sarcasm sensors.  8)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 26, 2017, 08:39:AM
For the same reasons given, the blood stains on Sheilas hand (as described by the pathologist) are now unbelievably being presented as cuts or injuries.

This is another example of people trying to pull the wool over your eyes. A premeditated and concerted effort to manipulate.
I am soooo naive, maybe I should get a life coach. :'(
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 26, 2017, 08:56:AM
I am soooo naive, maybe I should get a life coach. :'(

.Maggie, that was your third attempt at a reply over the last two hours.

I wasn't referring to you personally, simply that there is an effort to mislead people by Jeremy's supporters. At some point you have to ask why.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 26, 2017, 09:12:AM
I am soooo naive, maybe I should get a life coach. :'(

Well, THINK about it, Maggie. Vanezis did the autopsies within hours of the deaths. He went into minute detail about all sorts of inconsequential marks which were totally unrelated to the crime. WHY would he have omitted something linked to it. It was no skin off his nose WHO was responsible -pointing fingers wasn't in his remit- he wasn't concerned with family dynamics. Jeremy wasn't under investigation at the time and wasn't for another month. It seems that it's being suggested that the notes he wrote -and dated!!!- at the time he carried out the autopsies -in particular, Sheila's- he later changed!!!! WHY? The man had -STILL has- an unblemished record. I TRULY believe, despite what we're being asked to believe, if there had been gouges on Sheila when he autopsied her body,those gouges WOULD have been noted. This wouldn't be the first time we've been assured that black has been white.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 26, 2017, 09:13:AM
.Maggie, that was your third attempt at a reply over the last two hours.

I wasn't referring to you personally, simply that there is an effort to mislead people by Jeremy's supporters. At some point you have to ask why.
They were not 'attempts' I am just so fed up with the preaching and the put downs however I am not interested in falling out with anyone or even discussing this subject anymore. 
We all have a right to our own opinions for our own reasons without being told we are naive or easily manipulated.  I am quite capable of questioning anyone's motives and on a forum we should all be aware that posters are not all they appear to be whatever their stance on any issue.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 26, 2017, 09:21:AM
Well, THINK about it, Maggie. Vanezis did the autopsies within hours of the deaths. He went into minute detail about all sorts of inconsequential marks which were totally unrelated to the crime. WHY would he have omitted something linked to it. It was no skin off his nose WHO was responsible -pointing fingers wasn't in his remit- he wasn't concerned with family dynamics. Jeremy wasn't under investigation at the time and wasn't for another month. It seems that it's being suggested that the notes he wrote -and dated!!!- at the time he carried out the autopsies -in particular, Sheila's- he later changed!!!! WHY? The man had -STILL has- an unblemished record. I TRULY believe, despite what we're being asked to believe, if there had been gouges on Sheila when he autopsied her body,those gouges WOULD have been noted. This wouldn't be the first time we've been assured that black has been white.
I have THOUGHT about it which is why I say I cannot give any reason for the above.  I am not trying to rewrite anything because I don't have any information to do so.  I am quite hot on people giving their own opinions as fact therefore I wouldn't do it myself.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 26, 2017, 09:35:AM
'A third crowdfunding appeal has now been launched called Forensics 360.

The target is £6,000 to pay for a review of all material evidence used at Bamber's trial.

A spokesman for the campaign said: "We are looking at the case in its entirety, a full 360 degrees, to explore new avenues.".

                                                 -----------

Hopefully 360 will give some feedback soon. As it's been several months since it's formation. All evidence is being looked at again so surely they can come up with something.

Mike & Bill's photographic evidence they cannot or will not post. While JackieD, Roch & David won't reveal their new evidence. Which makes forum discussion difficult.



Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 26, 2017, 09:49:AM
Well, THINK about it, Maggie. Vanezis did the autopsies within hours of the deaths. He went into minute detail about all sorts of inconsequential marks which were totally unrelated to the crime. WHY would he have omitted something linked to it. It was no skin off his nose WHO was responsible -pointing fingers wasn't in his remit- he wasn't concerned with family dynamics. Jeremy wasn't under investigation at the time and wasn't for another month. It seems that it's being suggested that the notes he wrote -and dated!!!- at the time he carried out the autopsies -in particular, Sheila's- he later changed!!!! WHY? The man had -STILL has- an unblemished record. I TRULY believe, despite what we're being asked to believe, if there had been gouges on Sheila when he autopsied her body,those gouges WOULD have been noted. This wouldn't be the first time we've been assured that black has been white.

No he doesn't.  His expert testimony helped to wrongly convict a man who was imprisoned for 7 years as a result.

Also, Drake sent down the 'Bridgwater Four' in 1979.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 26, 2017, 09:49:AM
Well, THINK about it, Maggie. Vanezis did the autopsies within hours of the deaths. He went into minute detail about all sorts of inconsequential marks which were totally unrelated to the crime. WHY would he have omitted something linked to it. It was no skin off his nose WHO was responsible -pointing fingers wasn't in his remit- he wasn't concerned with family dynamics. Jeremy wasn't under investigation at the time and wasn't for another month. It seems that it's being suggested that the notes he wrote -and dated!!!- at the time he carried out the autopsies -in particular, Sheila's- he later changed!!!! WHY? The man had -STILL has- an unblemished record. I TRULY believe, despite what we're being asked to believe, if there had been gouges on Sheila when he autopsied her body,those gouges WOULD have been noted. This wouldn't be the first time we've been assured that black has been white.
The notes he wrote got stolen over the weekend Jane, says Mike?  Surprisingly i know, but this is always the bottom line answer when proof is given.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 26, 2017, 10:00:AM
They were not 'attempts' I am just so fed up with the preaching and the put downs however I am not interested in falling out with anyone or even discussing this subject anymore. 
We all have a right to our own opinions for our own reasons without being told we are naive or easily manipulated.  I am quite capable of questioning anyone's motives and on a forum we should all be aware that posters are not all they appear to be whatever their stance on any issue.

Maggie, his posts are actually quite offensive.  They are also insulting to the memory of Daniel, Nicholas, June, Nevill and Sheila. 

What is being claimed is that I am attempting to mislead and pull wool over people's eyes regarding wounds upon the back of Sheila's right hand; an angled cut on the left side of her right index finger which matches the shape of an engineered rifle part; and wounds upon her right arm.

I personally feel you should be commended for being forthright and honest in your acknowledgement of the wounds on the open forum.

The wounds in question were passed off as 'smearing'.  I have repeatedly asked how a gunshot neck wound pouring with blood would cause such 'smearing'.  I think we both know that blood doesn't behave in a manner that would cause the marks in question.  It doesn't of itself break the skin either. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 26, 2017, 10:06:AM
The notes he wrote got stolen over the weekend Jane, says Mike?  Surprisingly i know, but this is always the bottom line answer when proof is given.

Well, wad'ya know? SURprise SURprise!!!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 26, 2017, 10:07:AM
Maggie, his posts are actually quite offensive.  They are also insulting to the memory of Daniel, Nicholas, June, Nevill and Sheila. 

What is being claimed is that I am attempting to mislead and pull wool over people's eyes regarding wounds upon the back of Sheila's right hand; an angled cut on the left side of her right index finger which matches the shape of an engineered rifle part; and wounds upon her right arm.

I personally feel you should be commended for being forthright and honest in your acknowledgement of the wounds on the open forum.

The wounds in question were passed off as 'smearing'.  I have repeatedly asked how a gunshot neck wound pouring with blood would cause such 'smearing'.  I think we both know that blood doesn't behave in a manner that would cause the marks in question.  It doesn't of itself break the skin either.
Oh come on Roch and your posts aren't  offensive about family, police and Vanezis?

Maggie, his posts are actually quite offensive.  They are also insulting to the memory of Daniel, Nicholas, June, Nevill and Sheila.   
Yes right, pull the other one
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 26, 2017, 10:13:AM
Maggie, his posts are actually quite offensive.  They are also insulting to the memory of Daniel, Nicholas, June, Nevill and Sheila. 

What is being claimed is that I am attempting to mislead and pull wool over people's eyes regarding wounds upon the back of Sheila's right hand; an angled cut on the left side of her right index finger which matches the shape of an engineered rifle part; and wounds upon her right arm.

I personally feel you should be commended for being forthright and honest in your acknowledgement of the wounds on the open forum.


The wounds in question were passed off as 'smearing'.  I have repeatedly asked how a gunshot neck wound pouring with blood would cause such 'smearing'.  I think we both know that blood doesn't behave in a manner that would cause the marks in question.  It doesn't of itself break the skin either.

Strange what it is you choose to see as giving offence, isn't it? What about the offence given to the family, to Sheila, to Julie Mugford -NONE of whom were on trial- by certain posters every time they draw breath. Funny how some are seen as being fair game.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 26, 2017, 10:22:AM
Oh come on Roch and your posts aren't  offensive about family, police and Vanezis?

Maggie, his posts are actually quite offensive.  They are also insulting to the memory of Daniel, Nicholas, June, Nevill and Sheila.   
Yes right, pull the other one

You're entitled to your opinion but I don't know why you are so eager to defend the reputations of the 80's Essex Police officers and Vanezis?    I have consistently posted on this forum that any peddled version of events that conceals the truth, is effectively an insult to the victims. My reasoning for this is that the victims experienced the truth of the situation first hand.  The least we can do is to preserve that truth - not distort it by 'bending' the evidence to suit a JB conviction.  If you have to bend the evidence in order to get somebody behind bars - how is that preserving the truth of what happened?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 26, 2017, 10:26:AM
No he doesn't.  His expert testimony helped to wrongly convict a man who was imprisoned for 7 years as a result.

Also, Drake sent down the 'Bridgwater Four' in 1979.

You appear to be saying that if a person makes ONE mistake, it's a given that another will follow and you use other cases as examples of errors. I tire of other cases being thrown into this arena. THIS is about Jeremy Bamber. It seems perfectly reasonable to me, that if an error had occurred in a previous case, the person responsible would take care to ascertain that another didn't occur.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 26, 2017, 10:33:AM
You appear to be saying that if a person makes ONE mistake, it's a given that another will follow and you use other cases as examples of errors. I tire of other cases being thrown into this arena. THIS is about Jeremy Bamber. It seems perfectly reasonable to me, that if an error had occurred in a previous case, the person responsible would take care to ascertain that another didn't occur.

As for the Bridgewater case - they didn't get out until 1997 - so it's hardly likely that Drake would be cautious and conscientious about fabricated evidence in 1985.

Regarding Vaneziz - the 'mistake' he made was after the Bamber case.   
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 26, 2017, 10:35:AM
You're entitled to your opinion but I don't know why you are so eager to defend the reputations of the 80's Essex Police officers and Vanezis?    I have consistently posted on this forum that any peddled version of events that conceals the truth, is effectively an insult to the victims. My reasoning for this is that the victims experienced the truth of the situation first hand.  The least we can do is to preserve that truth - not distort it by 'bending' the evidence to suit a JB conviction.  If you have to bend the evidence in order to get somebody behind bars - how is that preserving the truth of what happened?

You're entitled to your opinion but I don't know why you're so eager to destroy the reputations of the 80's Essex Police and Vanezis? You have consistently posted on this forum peddled versions of events which blur the truth and effectively insult the victims who experienced the truth of the situation at first hand. The least that can be done for them is to preserve that truth, NOT distort it by 'bending' the evidence to suit JB's innocence. If you have to bend the evidence in order to get someone released, how is that preserving the truth of what happened?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 26, 2017, 10:44:AM
You're entitled to your opinion but I don't know why you're so eager to destroy the reputations of the 80's Essex Police and Vanezis? You have consistently posted on this forum peddled versions of events which blur the truth and effectively insult the victims who experienced the truth of the situation at first hand. The least that can be done for them is to preserve that truth, NOT distort it by 'bending' the evidence to suit JB's innocence. If you have to bend the evidence in order to get someone released, how is that preserving the truth of what happened?

You're just posting the reverse of what I posted without actually dealing with the issues in question.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 26, 2017, 10:55:AM
As for the Bridgewater case - they didn't get out until 1997 - so it's hardly like that Drake would be cautious and conscientious about fabricated evidence in 1985.

Regarding Vaneziz - the 'mistake' he made was after the Bamber case.   

The judge 's summing up was the basis of Bamber's first appeal. It was dismissed.

Roch believes everyone associated with the Bamber case should have had perfect records both pre & post 1985.

As these people are highly qualified & respected, they will constantly be in demand in high profile cases. There views will always be challenged by opponents. .
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 26, 2017, 10:56:AM
You're just posting the reverse of what I posted without actually dealing with the issues in question.

On the contrary. I could have written it without your input.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 26, 2017, 11:03:AM
On the contrary. I could have written it without your input.

Touche..
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 26, 2017, 12:05:PM
As for the Bridgewater case - they didn't get out until 1997 - so it's hardly likely that Drake would be cautious and conscientious about fabricated evidence in 1985.

Regarding Vaneziz - the 'mistake' he made was after the Bamber case.   
How did Vanezis make a mistake in the Bridgewater four?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 26, 2017, 12:09:PM
Touche..

Which means, EITHER we cancel out each other's arguments or both are equally valid, don't you think?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 26, 2017, 12:21:PM
It needs to be decided whether Vanezis made a mistake or was part of the industrial frame.

I don't see how he could have inspected the whole body and not noticed any cuts. So a mistake is ruled out.

However if he was part of the industrial frame why didn't the police hide Vanezis's original notes ? Roch said Ainsley was brought in to hide such evidence.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 26, 2017, 12:28:PM
It needs to be decided whether Vanezis made a mistake or was part of the industrial frame.

I don't see how he could have inspected the whole body and not noticed any cuts. So a mistake is ruled out.

However if he was part of the industrial frame why didn't the police hide Vanezis's original notes ? Roch said Ainsley was brought in to hide such evidence.
Mike says Vanezis's original notes got stolen over the weekend after writing them up, the notes available must be a second write up?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 26, 2017, 12:38:PM
How did Vanezis make a mistake in the Bridgewater four?

He didn't.  It was Drake who sent them down - after the police had fabricated some of the evidence.  Do you think that Drake came recommended to EP (for the Bamber case)?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 26, 2017, 12:38:PM
Maggie, his posts are actually quite offensive.  They are also insulting to the memory of Daniel, Nicholas, June, Nevill and Sheila. 

What is being claimed is that I am attempting to mislead and pull wool over people's eyes regarding wounds upon the back of Sheila's right hand; an angled cut on the left side of her right index finger which matches the shape of an engineered rifle part; and wounds upon her right arm.

I personally feel you should be commended for being forthright and honest in your acknowledgement of the wounds on the open forum.

The wounds in question were passed off as 'smearing'.  I have repeatedly asked how a gunshot neck wound pouring with blood would cause such 'smearing'.  I think we both know that blood doesn't behave in a manner that would cause the marks in question.  It doesn't of itself break the skin either.

Hmmmm.  ::)

There is a long list of previous attempts to mislead people in to believing that JB is innocent, the majority of which have been carried out intentionally with that agenda in mind. The perpetrators of such actions vary from the the Campaign Team, previous Legal Representatives, the founder of this forum and numerous members of this and other forums.

There are of course some assertions which are put forward with genuine belief, which may or may not be found wanting.

That is the simple historic truth of the matter.

Maggie seemed to be a little spiky when I mentioned that she had made three attempts at replying to a post, she had replied twice before and then deleted them before rewording a third reply. Nothing else was meant by it.

With regards to the blood staining on Sheila's hands, it is simply the case that a member of this forum has given an opinion that they are actually injuries, this is based on nothing more than a visual inspection of poor quality manipulated photographs.
There is no other evidence suggesting that the marks are injuries, in fact the opposite is true, given the pathologist's reports and photographs previously available since trial. The blood stains were SPECIFICALLY mentioned in court and discussed. There are no other accounts from any other witness that Sheila's hand were injured. Whilst there is the old adage that the absence of evidence is not an indication of evidence of absence, it is hardly a compelling argument in this instance.

People may choose to accept the claims, or not, it doesn't really matter, however if we are being even handed in portraying forum members behaviour, then Maggie certainly does appear blind to Roch's antics.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 26, 2017, 12:42:PM
Maggie certainly does appear blind to Roch's antics.

I'm sure Maggie will be grateful for your concern, regarding her vulnerability, in light my 'antics'.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 26, 2017, 12:47:PM
He didn't.  It was Drake who sent them down - after the police had fabricated some of the evidence.  Do you think that Drake came recommended to EP (for the Bamber case)?
Oh so you use this as an excuse to try to say Vanezis was involved?  Ok what is the role of a Judge in the trial?  He presides over the case,

During the trial

Once the trial has commenced the judge ensures that all parties involved are given the opportunity for their case to be presented and considered as fully and fairly as possible. The judge plays an active role during the trial, controlling the way the case is conducted in accordance with relevant law and practice. As the case progresses the judge makes notes of the evidence and decides on legal issues, for example, whether evidence is admissible.

Once all evidence in the case has been heard the judge’s summing up takes place. The judge sets out for the jury the law on each of the charges made and what the prosecution must prove to make the jury sure of the case. At this stage the judge refers to notes made during the course of the trial and reminds the jury of the key points of the case, highlighting the strengths and weaknesses of each side’s argument. The judge then gives directions about the duties of the jury before they retire to the jury deliberation room to consider the verdict.

They got off on a false confession, hardly the Judges fault or Vanezis's fault?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 26, 2017, 12:47:PM
I'm sure Maggie will be grateful for your concern, regarding her vulnerability, in light my 'antics'.

She has no need to be grateful, her vulnerableness or otherwise is not being discussed.
A number of members have observed that her frustrations appear unevenly distributed.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 26, 2017, 12:48:PM
49. DC Hammersley, the Scenes of Crimes Officer placed plastic bags over Sheila Caffell's hands and feet before her body was removed from the farmhouse. He saw some blood staining to the back of the right hand, but apart from that the hands, to his eye were clean and the nails intact. The deceased's feet were also free from blood staining and from any debris such as sugar.

So it was just a smudge of blood on the back of Sheila's hand.

That’s another one who must have been in the industrial frame as well.

Sorry Justice... but this is almost hilarious.   For weeks I have been getting questions hurled at me from you, Caroline and Jane, to the effect...

'Why would police lie?'

'Why would any officer place his career on the line?'

'Why are you questioning the reputations of police officers?'

'For what reason?...'


And various other righteous indignation…

‘Besmirching the reputations of officers’

This officer wasn't even at the scene.  He was disciplined for claiming to be at the scene.  He claims he bagged Sheila's hands and that there was only a smudge on the back of her hand!

Do people honestly believe that he just falsely inserted himself in to a major crime scene and a major, controversial investigation – without the knowledge of his superiors? 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 26, 2017, 12:52:PM
Sorry Justice... but this is almost hilarious.   For weeks I have been getting questions hurled at me from you, Caroline and Jane, to the effect...

'Why would police lie?'

'Why would any officer place his career on the line?'

'Why are you questioning the reputations of police officers?'

'For what reason?...'


And various other righteous indignation…

‘Besmirching the reputations of officers’

This officer wasn't even at the scene.  He was disciplined for claiming to be at the scene.  He claims he bagged Sheila's hands and that there was only a smudge on the back of her hand!

Do people honestly believe that he just falsely inserted himself in to a major crime scene and a major, controversial investigation – without the knowledge of his superiors?

His absence from the scene isn't true though. There is no evidence to support it yet you are using this to reinforce a point.

Presumably the mocking incredulous parts of your post are just for show?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 26, 2017, 12:53:PM
Hmmmm.  ::)

There is a long list of previous attempts to mislead people in to believing that JB is innocent, the majority of which have been carried out intentionally with that agenda in mind. .


There is a far longer list of previous attempts to mislead people in to believing that JB is guilty, the totality of which have been carried out intentionally with that agenda in mind.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 26, 2017, 12:55:PM
Oh so you use this as an excuse to try to say Vanezis was involved?  Ok what is the role of a Judge in the trial?  He presides over the case,

During the trial

Once the trial has commenced the judge ensures that all parties involved are given the opportunity for their case to be presented and considered as fully and fairly as possible. The judge plays an active role during the trial, controlling the way the case is conducted in accordance with relevant law and practice. As the case progresses the judge makes notes of the evidence and decides on legal issues, for example, whether evidence is admissible.

Once all evidence in the case has been heard the judge’s summing up takes place. The judge sets out for the jury the law on each of the charges made and what the prosecution must prove to make the jury sure of the case. At this stage the judge refers to notes made during the course of the trial and reminds the jury of the key points of the case, highlighting the strengths and weaknesses of each side’s argument. The judge then gives directions about the duties of the jury before they retire to the jury deliberation room to consider the verdict.

They got off on a false confession, hardly the Judges fault or Vanezis's fault?

As far as I'm aware - Vanezis wasn't linked to the case at all.  http://www.independent.co.uk/news/justice-finally-catches-up-with-truth-1279711.html
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 26, 2017, 12:59:PM

There is a far longer list of previous attempts to mislead people in to believing that JB is guilty, the totality of which have been carried out intentionally with that agenda in mind.

That mirror argument simply doesn't work, JB is guilty and was convicted.

You have to revert to Adam's cover up theories to get anywhere further with it.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 26, 2017, 12:59:PM
Sorry Justice... but this is almost hilarious.   For weeks I have been getting questions hurled at me from you, Caroline and Jane, to the effect...

'Why would police lie?'

'Why would any officer place his career on the line?'

'Why are you questioning the reputations of police officers?'

'For what reason?...'


And various other righteous indignation…

‘Besmirching the reputations of officers’

This officer wasn't even at the scene.  He was disciplined for claiming to be at the scene.  He claims he bagged Sheila's hands and that there was only a smudge on the back of her hand!

Do people honestly believe that he just falsely inserted himself in to a major crime scene and a major, controversial investigation – without the knowledge of his superiors?
Really glad it made you laugh Roch, yet you don't find Mikes suggestion laughable, that Sheila was shot accidentally twice by the police and managed to stay alive for nearly 2 hours with a severed external jugular vein.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 26, 2017, 01:03:PM
As far as I'm aware - Vanezis wasn't linked to the case at all.  http://www.independent.co.uk/news/justice-finally-catches-up-with-truth-1279711.html
Only you seems to blame the judge Roch, but it's a normal trait of yours, either corrupt, lie, or fabricate.
Bridgewater Four
The case later became something of a cause célèbre, and in February 1997 the men’s convictions were overturned after suggestions that the police had fabricated evidence in order to secure the all-important confession. Throughout the long campaign to overturn the verdicts, however, no criticism was made of Drake’s handling of the original trial.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 26, 2017, 01:11:PM
Only you seems to blame the judge Roch, but it's a normal trait of yours, either corrupt, lie, or fabricate.
Bridgewater Four
The case later became something of a cause célèbre, and in February 1997 the men’s convictions were overturned after suggestions that the police had fabricated evidence in order to secure the all-important confession. Throughout the long campaign to overturn the verdicts, however, no criticism was made of Drake’s handling of the original trial.

Yes it is, the habit of making ill considered accusations of such gravity without having reasonable or justifiable cause to do so.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 26, 2017, 01:14:PM
Sorry Justice... but this is almost hilarious.   For weeks I have been getting questions hurled at me from you, Caroline and Jane, to the effect...

'Why would police lie?'

'Why would any officer place his career on the line?'

'Why are you questioning the reputations of police officers?'

'For what reason?...'


And various other righteous indignation…

‘Besmirching the reputations of officers’

This officer wasn't even at the scene.  He was disciplined for claiming to be at the scene.  He claims he bagged Sheila's hands and that there was only a smudge on the back of her hand!

Do people honestly believe that he just falsely inserted himself in to a major crime scene and a major, controversial investigation – without the knowledge of his superiors?
A little more for you to laugh at Roch.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5817.0;attach=37839

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5817.0;attach=37846


Now post your evidence Roch.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 26, 2017, 01:17:PM
Yes it is, the habit of making ill considered accusations of such gravity without having reasonable or justifiable cause to do so.
They are not bothered so long as they can tarnish the name of anyone who thinks ill of Bamber, doesn't matter that they cannot provide evidence.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 26, 2017, 01:20:PM
A little more for you to laugh at Roch.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5817.0;attach=37839

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5817.0;attach=37846


Now post your evidence Roch.

Roch is just 'parroting' one of Mike's old 'super-sensational claims'.

He believes this but he has no reasonable justification for doing so. (sounds familiar?)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: JackieD on July 26, 2017, 01:27:PM
.Maggie, that was your third attempt at a reply over the last two hours.

I wasn't referring to you personally, simply that there is an effort to mislead people by Jeremy's supporters. At some point you have to ask why.


just like the relatives made a deliberate attempt to mislead the jury about Sheilas knowlege of guns

It was an absolute disgrace
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 26, 2017, 01:27:PM
That mirror argument simply doesn't work, JB is guilty and was convicted.

Says the spin doctor.  ::)

You have to revert to Adam's cover up theories to get anywhere further with it.

As for theories.... any luck finding that ladder?  :-\

No. He enters the house, commits five murders, goes outside and gets a ladder from the shed, leans it against the bedroom window, goes back inside and locks the door. Goes upstairs, climbs out of the window and down the ladder, puts ladder back in shed.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/MC8FOlxYwmUU/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 26, 2017, 01:28:PM
Roch is just 'parroting' one of Mike's old 'super-sensational claims'.

He believes this but he has no reasonable justification for doing so. (sounds familiar?)
Yes I know what Roch is suggesting Hartley.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 26, 2017, 01:31:PM
That mirror argument simply doesn't work, JB is guilty and was convicted.

You have to revert to Adam's cover up theories to get anywhere further with it.

It's not a theory. More of a suggestion.

Disagreeing with one piece of incriminating evidence will not go anywhere, as there are another 200+.

It may work if proof of evidence tampering was found. This is why Bamber has focused so much time on the silencer, as it was found late & then handled by the relatives, police & blood testers. However this avenue has been unsuccessful.

The only option is to go for the industrial frame. Which Roch is pusuing.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: JackieD on July 26, 2017, 01:35:PM
You're entitled to your opinion but I don't know why you're so eager to destroy the reputations of the 80's Essex Police and Vanezis? You have consistently posted on this forum peddled versions of events which blur the truth and effectively insult the victims who experienced the truth of the situation at first hand. The least that can be done for them is to preserve that truth, NOT distort it by 'bending' the evidence to suit JB's innocence. If you have to bend the evidence in order to get someone released, how is that preserving the truth of what happened?

In your opinion. Personally I have never seen Roch eager to destroy the reputations of the 80's Essex Police and Vanezis?  He is just stating facts and I have never seen Roch consistently posted on this forum peddled versions of events which blur the truth and effectively insult the victims who experienced the truth of the situation at first hand.

What ridiculous statements from someone who consistently has posts removed because of personal attacks on posters who believe Jeremy is innocent

Your posts are full of maybe's, if's or you 'think'

Fact is Jane you just don't know do you even though you spend your life on this forum

Try reading Roch's posts carefully and you might learn something one day.  I am beginning to think you and Adam are the same person because you are so similar

you really are a disgrace
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: JackieD on July 26, 2017, 01:39:PM
Hmmmm.  ::)

There is a long list of previous attempts to mislead people in to believing that JB is innocent, the majority of which have been carried out intentionally with that agenda in mind. The perpetrators of such actions vary from the the Campaign Team, previous Legal Representatives, the founder of this forum and numerous members of this and other forums.

There are of course some assertions which are put forward with genuine belief, which may or may not be found wanting.

Legal Representatives


maybe you should name and shame these Legal Representatives as you know so much about them

Facts are David Boutflour proved he was a liar on the stand at trial and Julie Mugford was a prolific liar

Still I am sure David Boutflour had his Karma for telling such vile lies


That is the simple historic truth of the matter.

Maggie seemed to be a little spiky when I mentioned that she had made three attempts at replying to a post, she had replied twice before and then deleted them before rewording a third reply. Nothing else was meant by it.

With regards to the blood staining on Sheila's hands, it is simply the case that a member of this forum has given an opinion that they are actually injuries, this is based on nothing more than a visual inspection of poor quality manipulated photographs.
There is no other evidence suggesting that the marks are injuries, in fact the opposite is true, given the pathologist's reports and photographs previously available since trial. The blood stains were SPECIFICALLY mentioned in court and discussed. There are no other accounts from any other witness that Sheila's hand were injured. Whilst there is the old adage that the absence of evidence is not an indication of evidence of absence, it is hardly a compelling argument in this instance.

People may choose to accept the claims, or not, it doesn't really matter, however if we are being even handed in portraying forum members behaviour, then Maggie certainly does appear blind to Roch's antics.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: JackieD on July 26, 2017, 01:40:PM
What facts?

You read them and didn't disagree as you know they are all true
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: JackieD on July 26, 2017, 01:44:PM
A little more for you to laugh at Roch.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5817.0;attach=37839

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5817.0;attach=37846


Now post your evidence Roch.


maybe when you try to contact people by pm you should stick to the same forum name or are you deliberately trying to mislead forum members
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 26, 2017, 01:44:PM
You read them and didn't disagree as you know they are all true
Oh Sorry Jackie is it my turn, no I don't read fiction, anyway to play your little game I will hazard a guess, was it Proffessor Plum, with a Dagger in the Kitchen?

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5817.0;attach=37846

Or Jeremy Bamber with a rifle in the Kitchen/Bedroom?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 26, 2017, 01:49:PM
As for theories.... any luck finding that ladder?  :-\

Why have you quoted part of a post from a year ago which doesn't appear to relate to the subject?  ???

There was some discussion about access/egress to the house and musings about an the open upstairs window in the main bedroom.

If it's really that interesting (I'm not sure that it is) then people can read it here:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7940.msg376939.html#msg376939 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7940.msg376939.html#msg376939)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 26, 2017, 01:54:PM

Legal Representatives

maybe you should name and shame these Legal Representatives as you know so much about them

I suspect it is quite obvious that the prime suspect here, would be the character currently serving time in prison for fraud.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Di_Stefano_(fraudster) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Di_Stefano_(fraudster))
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 26, 2017, 01:59:PM
In your opinion. Personally I have never seen Roch eager to destroy the reputations of the 80's Essex Police and Vanezis?  He is just stating facts and I have never seen Roch consistently posted on this forum peddled versions of events which blur the truth and effectively insult the victims who experienced the truth of the situation at first hand.

What ridiculous statements from someone who consistently has posts removed because of personal attacks on posters who believe Jeremy is innocent

Your posts are full of maybe's, if's or you 'think'

Fact is Jane you just don't know do you even though you spend your life on this forum

Try reading Roch's posts carefully and you might learn something one day.  I am beginning to think you and Adam are the same person because you are so similar

you really are a disgrace

I'll tell you what, Jackie. If you have within you the grace and courtesy to leave me alone, ie ignore my posts or put me on ignore if you so choose, I'll pay you the same courtesy, primarily because it's beneath my dignity to even acknowledge you're existence, let alone your pathetic posts. You've maybe, probably chosen to ignore that, whilst you weren't posting, the forum ran much more smoothly without your inane interruptions and constant accusations of me causing trouble, in vain attempt to cover up that it's YOU who intentionally seek to cause trouble each time you address me. This forum isn't about you OR me. It's about Jeremy Bamber. From which ever side of the divide we sit.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 26, 2017, 02:09:PM
Why have you quoted part of a post from a year ago which doesn't appear to relate to the subject?  ???

There was some discussion about access/egress to the house and musings about an the open upstairs window in the main bedroom.

If it's really that interesting (I'm not sure that it is) then people can read it here:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7940.msg376939.html#msg376939 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7940.msg376939.html#msg376939)

You're lucky it's only from one year ago. He's been know to drag out posts from 4 or 5 years back.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 26, 2017, 02:09:PM
A little more for you to laugh at Roch.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5817.0;attach=37839

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5817.0;attach=37846


Now post your evidence Roch.

This page is even more interesting, Hammersley is being asked about a 'smudge' on the back of Sheila's middle finger from a close up of a post mortem photograph and no one sees any marks like those described here. The smudge isn't even on the CS photograph.

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5817.0;attach=37847)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 26, 2017, 02:13:PM
This page is even more interesting, Hammersley is being asked about a 'smudge' on the back of Sheila's middle finger from a close up of a post mortem photograph and no one sees any marks like those described here. The smudge isn't even on the CS photograph.

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5817.0;attach=37847)

I've never mentioned Sheila's middle finger.  Nor any ring that she did or did not wear.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 26, 2017, 02:19:PM
This page is even more interesting, Hammersley is being asked about a 'smudge' on the back of Sheila's middle finger from a close up of a post mortem photograph and no one sees any marks like those described here. The smudge isn't even on the CS photograph.

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5817.0;attach=37847)
I posted this some while back Caroline, Roch didn't find it funny then, he became Rattled with it?

Reply 315 in this thread if anyone would like to have a look.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 26, 2017, 02:23:PM
This page is even more interesting, Hammersley is being asked about a 'smudge' on the back of Sheila's middle finger from a close up of a post mortem photograph and no one sees any marks like those described here. The smudge isn't even on the CS photograph.

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5817.0;attach=37847)

I think this argument about cuts could only happen on the forum. Clearly there are photographs which show that no cuts are present (MacDonnell refers to these also).

It may even be the case that NGB has seen these photographs.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 26, 2017, 02:24:PM
I posted this some while back Caroline, Roch didn't find it funny then, he became Rattled with it?

Reply 315 in this thread if anyone would like to have a look.

I didn't become rattled with what you posted.  I just couldn't understand why didn't want to use your own eyes when given the opportunity.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 26, 2017, 02:24:PM
I posted this some while back Caroline, Roch didn't find it funny then, he became Rattled with it?

Reply 315 in this thread if anyone would like to have a look.

DC Hammersley has got a lot of explaining to do, because exhibit DRH/33 was also the bible!!

The bible later became DRH/44..

Cops destroyed one bible, and handed the other back to the relatives!


Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 26, 2017, 02:26:PM
It occurs to me that those posters who believe in Jeremy being innocent might be wise to find a bit more common ground. We have Mike telling the story of police shooting Sheila, not just once, but twice, and if lack of support for it, from other supporters, is anything to go by, is at a thousand mile remove from anything other supporters believe. We have Lookout with any entirely different take, in that it was a family feud with June being responsible for Sheila's death. We've had David tealeafing information researched by someone else, making it pro Bamber and saying he has new and crucial information too hot to share -might that be the reason for it being dropped like a lead balloon? We have Roch trying to convince us that respected and eminent experts presents entirely different ie rewritten notes on Sheila after Jeremy started to be investigated................and we have a cheer leader egging them all on to success. The ONLY thing they have in common THUS far is their belief in Jeremy's innocence. NOTHING else of their beliefs seem to match up with anyone else's belief. It lends neither credibility to, nor confidence in, anything they say.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 26, 2017, 02:27:PM
I didn't become rattled with what you posted.  I just couldn't understand why didn't want to use your own eyes when given the opportunity.

Did the defence not have eyes when looking at enlarged photographs of the back of Sheila's right hand?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 26, 2017, 02:28:PM
I didn't become rattled with what you posted.  I just couldn't understand why didn't want to use your own eyes when given the opportunity.
You accused me of attacking

Quote from: justice on July 23, 2017, 06:53:PM
Ok thanks Steve.

This is Hammersley's court statement, for those who think they did not have photos of the hands at trial, they even had enlargements.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5817.0;attach=37846

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5817.0;attach=37847

But I suppose innocent posters have  a much clearer picture than what was offered at trial?

Can I please ask why you keep going on about photos at trial regarding Sheila's hand/s.  You yourself were allowed a close-up view of Sheila's right hand on this forum.  Your response was to launch in to attacks and rail against the person who allowed you to see the image.   Why do you prefer to hang off the back of Hammersley's word - instead of just using your own eyes to view the image in question?   :-\
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 09:08:PM by Roch »
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 26, 2017, 02:33:PM
You accused me of attacking

Yes, as in the two people who put the images up.  I couldn't understand why you weren't grateful instead of moaning.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 26, 2017, 02:34:PM
DC Hammersley has got a lot of explaining to do, because exhibit DRH/33 was also the bible!!

The bible later became DRH/44..

In fact, there were two bibles, one DRH/33 and the other DRH/44 - one was discarded so that the hand swab could be introduced after it had previously been rejected!!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 26, 2017, 02:38:PM
In fact, there were two bibles, one DRH/33 and the other DRH/44 - one was discarded so that the hand swab could be introduced after it had previously been rejected!!

In fact, the whole exhibit library is made up of doctered exhibit references, because if the truth be known DC Hammersley was not the first police officer to seize them, handle them, or remove them from the bodies of victims, or elsewhere inside the farmhouse, the firearm officers were, then senior officers, then the first group of SOCO (Henderson and Oakey), then the second team of SOCO (Bird, Cook, Davidson and Hammersley)...

Exhibit references for exhibits faked...
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 26, 2017, 02:40:PM
In fact, the whole exhibit library is made up of doctered exhibit references, because if the truth be known DC Hammersley was not the first police officer to seize them, handle them, or remove them from the bodies of victims, or elsewhere inside the farmhouse, the firearm officers were, then senior officers, then the first group of SOCO (Henderson and Oakey), then the second team of SOCO (Bird, Cook, Davidson and Hammersley)...

Exhibit references for exhibits faked...

But I guess nobody gives a hoot about this state of affairs, it seems the done deal to fabricate evidence and stsage the death scenes of victims in this case!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 26, 2017, 02:46:PM
I suspect it is quite obvious that the prime suspect here, would be the character currently serving time in prison for fraud.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Di_Stefano_(fraudster) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Di_Stefano_(fraudster))


Heheheee! Whilst I feel certain you're undeserving of it H, it may have escaped your notice that the number of your above post is 666 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :o :o :o
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 26, 2017, 02:49:PM

Heheheee! Whilst I feel certain you're undeserving of it H, it may have escaped your notice that the number of your above post is 666 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :o :o :o

That's quite funny.  ;D
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 26, 2017, 02:57:PM
That's quite funny.  ;D


I thought so   ;D
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on July 26, 2017, 03:53:PM
It occurs to me that those posters who believe in Jeremy being innocent might be wise to find a bit more common ground. We have Mike telling the story of police shooting Sheila, not just once, but twice, and if lack of support for it, from other supporters, is anything to go by, is at a thousand mile remove from anything other supporters believe. We have Lookout with any entirely different take, in that it was a family feud with June being responsible for Sheila's death. We've had David tealeafing information researched by someone else, making it pro Bamber and saying he has new and crucial information too hot to share -might that be the reason for it being dropped like a lead balloon? We have Roch trying to convince us that respected and eminent experts presents entirely different ie rewritten notes on Sheila after Jeremy started to be investigated................and we have a cheer leader egging them all on to success. The ONLY thing they have in common THUS far is their belief in Jeremy's innocence. NOTHING else of their beliefs seem to match up with anyone else's belief. It lends neither credibility to, nor confidence in, anything they say.
I agree Jane, though I would put as a rider that I believe them sincere in their beliefs. I wanted Lookout's view on anti-depressants today and hope she's enjoying her holiday or time off if she's not with us. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/aurora_shooting
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 26, 2017, 04:00:PM
It occurs to me that those posters who believe in Jeremy being innocent might be wise to find a bit more common ground. We have Mike telling the story of police shooting Sheila, not just once, but twice, and if lack of support for it, from other supporters, is anything to go by, is at a thousand mile remove from anything other supporters believe. We have Lookout with any entirely different take, in that it was a family feud with June being responsible for Sheila's death. We've had David tealeafing information researched by someone else, making it pro Bamber and saying he has new and crucial information too hot to share -might that be the reason for it being dropped like a lead balloon? We have Roch trying to convince us that respected and eminent experts presents entirely different ie rewritten notes on Sheila after Jeremy started to be investigated................and we have a cheer leader egging them all on to success. The ONLY thing they have in common THUS far is their belief in Jeremy's innocence. NOTHING else of their beliefs seem to match up with anyone else's belief. It lends neither credibility to, nor confidence in, anything they say.

Who has the role of Cheerleader? 

BTW, I'm not trying to convince you that Vanezis' handwritten notes were re-written.  I touted it as a possibility.   It's not my fault that SC is covered in wounds.  It's the result of either one or both other adult victims attacking her arm, and trying to restrain her, prior to losing their own lives.  They too also sustained fight injuries in return. 

Their daughter literally went berserk.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 26, 2017, 04:05:PM
Roch is this what you wanted me to highlight?  :-\
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 26, 2017, 04:06:PM
I agree Jane, though I would put as a rider that I believe them sincere in their beliefs. I wanted Lookout's view on anti-depressants today and hope she's enjoying her holiday or time off if she's not with us. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/aurora_shooting

Yes Steve! I confess to doing a wry grin when I heard it on the news, albeit, that news is YEARS out of date. Back in the early 90's I was asked to do a presentation on eating disorders and my research told me that children as young as 5 to 7 were presenting with eating disorders -OK, so what did they expect? Children copy their parents- it was announced, on the news, just a few months ago, that scientists have found evidence that children as young as 5 are presenting with eating disorders!!! Of course, it doesn't mean ALL 5 year olds are afflicted, any more than antidepressants cause violence in EVERYONE. Like you, I hope Lookout, whatever she's doing, is benefiting from her time away from here and I wish her well.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 26, 2017, 04:09:PM
Roch is this what you wanted me to highlight?  :-\

Yes but I don't think it's the same version of the photo you used for your own post.  There's something different about it.  Annoyingly, my works computer wont allow me access to view your original post.  It sometimes does that - don't know why.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 26, 2017, 04:13:PM
Yes but I don't think it's the same version of the photo you used for your own post.  There's something different about it.  Annoyingly, my works computer wont allow me access to view your original post.  It sometimes does that - don't know why.

Its not the same. This is a better resolution photo.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 26, 2017, 04:19:PM
Its not the same. This is a better resolution photo.

To some extent maybe it is.  But on the other photo - within that grouping of marks - there were two marks in particular that seemed to be more easy to see than on this latest image.  Anyway thanks for posting that up.

Blood certainly smears in mysterious ways  ;)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on July 26, 2017, 04:25:PM
Are you saying that the marks on #687 were made by contact with another human being. Were the circular blood marks fingerprint smudges?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 26, 2017, 04:36:PM
Are you saying that the marks on #687 were made by contact with another human being. Were the circular blood marks fingerprint smudges?

Steve there is another image further back on the thread.  Regarding the grouping of small marks highlighted in 687.  I think that two of them can be seen a little more clearly in the image further back in the thread. I wouldn't have thought they were finger prints.  But I don't think they're smears either. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 26, 2017, 04:40:PM
To some extent maybe it is.  But on the other photo - within that grouping of marks - there were two marks in particular that seemed to be more easy to see than on this latest image.  Anyway thanks for posting that up.

Blood certainly smears in mysterious ways  ;)

They are identical.  ???
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 26, 2017, 04:50:PM
They are identical.  ???

What I'm trying to say is that the two marks are easier to make out in post 694 than they are in 687.  Hope this makes sense  :))
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 26, 2017, 04:56:PM

maybe when you try to contact people by pm you should stick to the same forum name or are you deliberately trying to mislead forum members
I don't get what you mean, try, I either did or I didn't, I used to be Ralph and I changed my name for reasons which I've explained.  The only thing I remember is  you contacted me once before, saying, you wasn't 100 per cent sure if Bamber was guilty or not, I can't even remember if I replied, I think I did not sure?  So what, I talked to loads on here I'm a friendly lady,  Roch, NGB,  Maggie, Patti, Susan, Jane, Caroline, Stephanie, are you feeling left out? just feel mighty honoured you were on my list if I did, why make out I am misleading posters, if I did I did, everyone is allowed an off day
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 26, 2017, 05:01:PM
Another glaring discrepancy, is the exhibit reference given to the anshuzt rifle (DRH/15), since DC Hammersley was not the first witness to handle it! On the official version of events told in the tale by DI 'Ron' Cook, he it was who removed the said rifle from Sheila's body, he it was who showed PI 'Ivor' Montgomery the rifle, and it was 'Ron' Cook who stood the anshuzt rifle at the main bedroom window! The rifle should not have been given the exhibit reference of DRH/15, its a deception introduced to fool people into thinking the rifle was on Sheila's body undisturbed until after 10 am when DC Hammersley took possession of it from Sheila Caffells body!

How can this be true, when Cook testified during the trial that he took possession of the rifle from Sheila Caffells body?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 26, 2017, 05:12:PM
In fact, the whole exhibit library is made up of doctered exhibit references, because if the truth be known DC Hammersley was not the first police officer to seize them, handle them, or remove them from the bodies of victims, or elsewhere inside the farmhouse, the firearm officers were, then senior officers, then the first group of SOCO (Henderson and Oakey), then the second team of SOCO (Bird, Cook, Davidson and Hammersley)...

Exhibit references for exhibits faked...
Oh so Hammersley was at the scene then?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 26, 2017, 05:23:PM
Another glaring discrepancy, is the exhibit reference given to the anshuzt rifle (DRH/15), since DC Hammersley was not the first witness to handle it! On the official version of events told in the tale by DI 'Ron' Cook, he it was who removed the said rifle from Sheila's body, he it was who showed PI 'Ivor' Montgomery the rifle, and it was 'Ron' Cook who stood the anshuzt rifle at the main bedroom window! The rifle should not have been given the exhibit reference of DRH/15, its a deception introduced to fool people into thinking the rifle was on Sheila's body undisturbed until after 10 am when DC Hammersley took possession of it from Sheila Caffells body!

How can this be true, when Cook testified during the trial that he took possession of the rifle from Sheila Caffells body?

This matter is further highlighted as a fraud, because the second team of SOCO (Cook, Bird, Davidson and Hammersley) did not take control of the scene until after 10am - you will remember what the police surgeon, Dr Craig said about the position of the rifle at 8.44am, with Sheila's body 'on the far side of the bed', with what appeared to be a rifle alongside her body! Somebody, therefore must have placed that rifle onto Sheila's body after the police surgeon Craig viewed the body and the rifle alongside it! Then we had the Commander of the firearms Operation, PS Adams who at 9am visited the main bedroom and saw the body of Sheila Caffell, minus the rifle! Again, somebody from amongst the police contingent must have placed that rifle onto Sheila Caffells body after PS Adams left the main bedroom! Then we had DS 'Stan' Jones, and DC 'Mick' Clark, who both visited the main bedroom scene and saw the bodies of Sheila and June both laid out on top of the bed with the said rifle on the bed inbetween both bodies! Again, somebody in the police contingent must have ploaced the said rifle onto Sheila's body after Jones and Clark both left the main bedroom! Then we had the Coroners officer, PC Wright who visited the main bedroom and saw Sheila Caffells body at 9.30am, he states that the rifle had already been removed from Sheila's body by that stage! So, once again, somebody from amongst the police contingent must have plonked that rifle onto Sheila Caffells body after PC Wright first saw Sheila's body at 9.30am...

By 10am, the anshuzt rifle, which had not been on Sheila's body at either 8.44am (Craig), 9am (Adams), 9.10am (Jones and Clark), and 9.30am (PC Wright) was now firmly with Sheila Caffells body, and PC Bird photographed it there on the footing that is where it had originally been found undisturbed! Cook lied about the sequence with which he was involved in removing the anshuzt rifle for the very first time it was taken off Sheila's body! Cook did not arrive at the scene until 9.20am, and already by that stage we know that the rifle was not on the body by reference to Dr Craig, PS Adams, and Jones and Clarks accounts! We also know that Cook deliberately lied by claiming he had moved the rifle from Sheila's body to the main bedroom window, as shown by photograph no. 23, because that photograph was taken before Cook even set foot inside the main bedroom, and it wasn't taken by PC Bird, it was taken by members of the first SOCO team, Oakey or Henderson!

A total of three different officers claim to have removed the anshuzt rifle from Sheila Caffells body and made it safe! (1) PI Montgomery, (2) Ron Cook, and (3) PS Woodcock...

Hence why the said rifle should never have been given the exhibit reference of DRH/15, because DC Hammersley did not remove the rifle from Sheila's body, he did not handle it originally, others did, other cops handled it, checked it, repositioned it with the body on several occasions during 'informatives'...
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 26, 2017, 05:35:PM
This matter is further highlighted as a fraud, because the second team of SOCO (Cook, Bird, Davidson and Hammersley) did not take control of the scene until after 10am - you will remember what the police surgeon, Dr Craig said about the position of the rifle at 8.44am, with Sheila's body 'on the far side of the bed', with what appeared to be a rifle alongside her body! Somebody, therefore must have placed that rifle onto Sheila's body after the police surgeon Craig viewed the body and the rifle alongside it! Then we had the Commander of the firearms Operation, PS Adams who at 9am visited the main bedroom and saw the body of Sheila Caffell, minus the rifle! Again, somebody from amongst the police contingent must have placed that rifle onto Sheila Caffells body after PS Adams left the main bedroom! Then we had DS 'Stan' Jones, and DC 'Mick' Clark, who both visited the main bedroom scene and saw the bodies of Sheila and June both laid out on top of the bed with the said rifle on the bed inbetween both bodies! Again, somebody in the police contingent must have ploaced the said rifle onto Sheila's body after Jones and Clark both left the main bedroom! Then we had the Coroners officer, PC Wright who visited the main bedroom and saw Sheila Caffells body at 9.30am, he states that the rifle had already been removed from Sheila's body by that stage! So, once again, somebody from amongst the police contingent must have plonked that rifle onto Sheila Caffells body after PC Wright first saw Sheila's body at 9.30am...

By 10am, the anshuzt rifle, which had not been on Sheila's body at either 8.44am (Craig), 9am (Adams), 9.10am (Jones and Clark), and 9.30am (PC Wright) was now firmly with Sheila Caffells body, and PC Bird photographed it there on the footing that is where it had originally been found undisturbed! Cook lied about the sequence with which he was involved in removing the anshuzt rifle for the very first time it was taken off Sheila's body! Cook did not arrive at the scene until 9.20am, and already by that stage we know that the rifle was not on the body by reference to Dr Craig, PS Adams, and Jones and Clarks accounts! We also know that Cook deliberately lied by claiming he had moved the rifle from Sheila's body to the main bedroom window, as shown by photograph no. 23, because that photograph was taken before Cook even set foot inside the main bedroom, and it wasn't taken by PC Bird, it was taken by members of the first SOCO team, Oakey or Henderson!

A total of three different officers claim to have removed the anshuzt rifle from Sheila Caffells body and made it safe! (1) PI Montgomery, (2) Ron Cook, and (3) PS Woodcock...

Hence why the said rifle should never have been given the exhibit reference of DRH/15, because DC Hammersley did not remove the rifle from Sheila's body, he did not handle it originally, others did, other cops handled it, checked it, repositioned it with the body on several occasions during 'informatives'...

When referring to the rifle in question, and to their handling of it, neither Montgomery, Cook or Woodcock, refer to the rifle by its exhibit reference of DRH/15 - there is a good reason for this, the said rifle has been fraudulently associated with firing the two shots (bullets, PV/20 and PV/19) which wounded and killed Sheila Caffell! The first witness to handle any exhibit in any criminal investigation is always the witness whose identifying initials are associated with the exhibit! But not in this case, the people who did handle the rifle, the people who did moved it, and plant it with Sheila Caffells body, wanted to disassociate themselves from ever touching it, let alone use it to stage manage Sheila Caffells death scene!

But stage her death they did, and they set up DC Hammersley to be the numpty!!

No wonder he broke down crying when he was to be interviewed by COLP, 'I DIDn't FIND IT', he blurted out...

That's right, he didn't but they made him into the scapegoat by presenting the facts dishonestly about who took possession of that rifle, and what was done with it...
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 26, 2017, 05:41:PM
Oh so Hammersley was at the scene then?

According to CAL and SOCO Neil Davidson - he was.  However he was not down on the list of officers who entered the building.  A DC Henderson was.  CAL puts this down to an error in recording. 

Hammersley broke down when interviewed by COLP and mentioned something about his marriage breaking up.  He was disciplined for something case related but I cant find what it was.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 26, 2017, 05:47:PM
According to CAL and SOCO Neil Davidson - he was.  However he was not down on the list of officers who entered the building.  A DC Henderson was.  CAL puts this down to an error in recording. 

Hammersley broke down when interviewed by COLP and mentioned something about his marriage breaking up.  He was disciplined for something case related but I cant find what it was.
And the fact he gave court testimony at the trial saying he was there as well, you missed that bit.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 26, 2017, 05:51:PM
It occurs to me that those posters who believe in Jeremy being innocent might be wise to find a bit more common ground. We have Mike telling the story of police shooting Sheila, not just once, but twice, and if lack of support for it, from other supporters, is anything to go by, is at a thousand mile remove from anything other supporters believe. We have Lookout with any entirely different take, in that it was a family feud with June being responsible for Sheila's death. We've had David tealeafing information researched by someone else, making it pro Bamber and saying he has new and crucial information too hot to share -might that be the reason for it being dropped like a lead balloon? We have Roch trying to convince us that respected and eminent experts presents entirely different ie rewritten notes on Sheila after Jeremy started to be investigated................and we have a cheer leader egging them all on to success. The ONLY thing they have in common THUS far is their belief in Jeremy's innocence. NOTHING else of their beliefs seem to match up with anyone else's belief. It lends neither credibility to, nor confidence in, anything they say.


You think it would be wise for us to find common ground?

The only thing THEY have in common?

Well if that is not grouping posters into us and them I don't know what is.

Personally I am aware of no cheer leader . I think most posters on here clearly act as individuals and are asking others on both sides questions and most  don't have a gang mentality . They are intelligently not jumping to conclusions. 

It's not as if there have never been miscarriages of justice before and some posters have readily admitted some police officers do lie to get their man . So I think perhaps more respect .

I am sure we are all on here for a reason .

Not sure I can fathom everyone's reason , but hey , live and let live.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 26, 2017, 05:53:PM
Based on all the information we now have access to, the anshuzt rifle went on a journey after Sheila Caffell placed it at the box room window for the police to see at around 7.15am, that morning!

It eventually found its way into the main bedroom at around 8.44am, it was alongside the body at that stage (Craig and another), we don't know exactly where it was at 9am when PS Adams saw Sheila's body (minus the rifle), but by 9.10am we know that the said rifle was laying on the bed between the bodies of Sheila and June! We don't know where the rifle was at 9.30am, when the Coroners Officer, PC Wright viewd Sheila's body (the rifle had been removed from the body by that stage). What we do know, is that the rifle iin question was photographed by Oakey and Henderson resting near the main bedroom window as shown in photograph no. 23, and that then DC Oakey photographed Sheila in possession of the said rifle as shown in photograph no. 26 (which shows the barrel of the anshuzt rifle resting against the left side of her neck!). These activities and duties took place prior to 10am, when the first team of SOCO had controlof the farmhouse which coincided with senior officers carrying out 'infomatives' using the bodies of victims and exhibits of evidential value! Then allong came the second team of SOCO (Cook, Bird, Davidson and Hammersley) after 10am, by which stage the bodies of victims had already been physically abused and staged, and PC Bird took further photographs showing the rifle in a different position on Sheila Caffells body (as shown in photographs, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, etc)...

The prosecution of Jeremy Bamber was therefore supported by concocted evidence, the exhibit references had no real value other than to enable Essexolice to pull the wool over everyones eyes, including the jury, about the validity of PC Birds photographs, a dangerous deception, claiming they represented thhe crime scene undisturbed, when in fact they were part of a police cponspiracy to pervert the course of justice involving the manner with which Sheila Caffell had died inside whf..
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 26, 2017, 06:02:PM
Based on all the information we now have access to, the anshuzt rifle went on a journey after Sheila Caffell placed it at the box room window for the police to see at around 7.15am, that morning!

It eventually found its way into the main bedroom at around 8.44am, it was alongside the body at that stage (Craig and another), we don't know exactly where it was at 9am when PS Adams saw Sheila's body (minus the rifle), but by 9.10am we know that the said rifle was laying on the bed between the bodies of Sheila and June! We don't know where the rifle was at 9.30am, when the Coroners Officer, PC Wright viewd Sheila's body (the rifle had been removed from the body by that stage). What we do know, is that the rifle iin question was photographed by Oakey and Henderson resting near the main bedroom window as shown in photograph no. 23, and that then DC Oakey photographed Sheila in possession of the said rifle as shown in photograph no. 26 (which shows the barrel of the anshuzt rifle resting against the left side of her neck!). These activities and duties took place prior to 10am, when the first team of SOCO had controlof the farmhouse which coincided with senior officers carrying out 'infomatives' using the bodies of victims and exhibits of evidential value! Then allong came the second team of SOCO (Cook, Bird, Davidson and Hammersley) after 10am, by which stage the bodies of victims had already been physically abused and staged, and PC Bird took further photographs showing the rifle in a different position on Sheila Caffells body (as shown in photographs, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, etc)...

The prosecution of Jeremy Bamber was therefore supported by concocted evidence, the exhibit references had no real value other than to enable Essexolice to pull the wool over everyones eyes, including the jury, about the validity of PC Birds photographs, a dangerous deception, claiming they represented thhe crime scene undisturbed, when in fact they were part of a police cponspiracy to pervert the course of justice involving the manner with which Sheila Caffell had died inside whf..

What must be factual is that 'Ron' Cook could not have removed any rifle from on top of Sheila Caffells body prior to 10am, and not until after PC Bird had finished taking photographs, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, etc, which as we all know he did not start taking until after 10am. So, that leaves PI Montgomery and PS Woodcock...

Well, according to PS Woodcock, it was 11.10am, before he removed the anshuzt rifle from Sheila Caffells body!

This leaves only PI Montgomery to have moved the rifle from Sheila's body after the shot under the chin once Sheila's body was moved from the bed to the floor and the rifle used in a gauging exercise on Sheila's body detonated the fatal shot which killed her outright, immediately. Montgomery stood the rifle at the main bedroom window as shown in photograph no. 23, not 'Ron' Cook..
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 26, 2017, 06:07:PM

You think it would be wise for us to find common ground?

The only thing THEY have in common?

Well if that is not grouping posters into us and them I don't know what is.

Personally I am aware of no cheer leader . I think most posters on here clearly act as individuals and are asking others on both sides questions and most  don't have a gang mentality . They are intelligently not jumping to conclusions. 

It's not as if there have never been miscarriages of justice before and some posters have readily admitted some police officers do lie to get their man . So I think perhaps more respect .

I am sure we are all on here for a reason .

Not sure I can fathom everyone's reason , but hey , live and let live.

Jan
that is an excellent post and so very true. and worded so well. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 26, 2017, 06:08:PM
Yet to be adduced, is who was responsible for taking the anshuzt rifle from the box room window, into the main bedroom, and laying it alongside Sheila's body which according to the police surgeon was 'on the far side of the bed' at 8.44am, which was still on the bed inbetween the bodies of Sheila and June at 9.10am when Jones and Clark visited the main bedroom and viewed the bodies and the gun, or who was manipulating the anshuzt rifle on Sheila's body when she received the fatal shot (bullet PV/19) beneath the chin?

PS Woodcock!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 26, 2017, 06:09:PM

You think it would be wise for us to find common ground?

The only thing THEY have in common?

Well if that is not grouping posters into us and them I don't know what is.

Personally I am aware of no cheer leader . I think most posters on here clearly act as individuals and are asking others on both sides questions and most  don't have a gang mentality . They are intelligently not jumping to conclusions. 

It's not as if there have never been miscarriages of justice before and some posters have readily admitted some police officers do lie to get their man . So I think perhaps more respect .

I am sure we are all on here for a reason .

Not sure I can fathom everyone's reason , but hey , live and let live.

All those who state reasons are disagreeing with others who state reasons. It isn't I who's doing the grouping. You do that yourselves. You speak mof yourselves as "intelligently not jumping to conclusions" but such -by some of your number- is EXACTLY why there are heated disagreements. You're perfectly correct in that there HAVE been previous MoJ's, and, yes, there have been, and undoubtedly, are still corrupt members of the police, but poor as I am mathematically, one plus one have never made five. I don't actually believe you have any more right to ask for more respect than the rest of us. From where I'm sitting I experience, from you, as little respect as possible for those of us who don't think Jeremy is innocent. Hardly living and allowing to live, is it?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 26, 2017, 06:35:PM
All those who state reasons are disagreeing with others who state reasons. It isn't I who's doing the grouping. You do that yourselves. You speak mof yourselves as "intelligently not jumping to conclusions" but such -by some of your number- is EXACTLY why there are heated disagreements. You're perfectly correct in that there HAVE been previous MoJ's, and, yes, there have been, and undoubtedly, are still corrupt members of the police, but poor as I am mathematically, one plus one have never made five. I don't actually believe you have any more right to ask for more respect than the rest of us. From where I'm sitting I experience, from you, as little respect as possible for those of us who don't think Jeremy is innocent. Hardly living and allowing to live, is it?

Sorry you feel like that because I don't feel that is true at all .

But your post to me was lumping all of us who believe Jeremy to be innocent together and you know that's not true . You have seen my posts to Mike for example several times querying his theories . And asking David and Roch questions. So if you think I am going to jump onto any particular bandwagon in order to strengthen my belief then you are mistaken , and I in turn respect other posters who think he is innocent or guilty ( as long as they don't exaggerate or embellish for attention) .

And personally I don't think it is wise to take someone else's view and follow it without question .

Just because you have a legal ruling on your side  does not necessarily mean you are right.

In some ways I hope you are because I would never want to think of a man in jail for all these years on an unsafe conviction based on non disclosure or lies .   I really don't.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 26, 2017, 06:59:PM
There is no grouping on either side.

I go by the forensic & circumstantial evidence. Together with no one being able to explain how Sheila committed the massacre. Other guilters don't believe that there being no Sheila scenario proves anything, which is strange. Others engaged with Bamber himself before coming to a guilty opinion.

Supporters give various reasons for support. JackieD because Julie identified the twins & Buddy because Bamber didn't lobb Julie overboard. Notsure is impressed that Bamber still protests his innocence via twitter while Nugs thinks poachers would have seen Bamber cycling to WHF.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 26, 2017, 07:02:PM
There is no grouping on either side.

I go by the forensic & circumstantial evidence. Together with no one being able to explain how Sheila committed the massacre. Other guilters don't believe that there being no Sheila scenario proves anything, which is strange. Others engaged with Bamber himself before coming to a guilty opinion.

Supporters give various reasons for support. JackieD because Julie identified the twins & Buddy because Bamber didn't lobb Julie overboard. Notsure is impressed that Bamber still protests his innocence via twitter while Nugs thinks poachers would have seen Bamber cycling to WHF.
Maybe someone could find some common ground with you on this Adam?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 26, 2017, 07:03:PM
Sorry you feel like that because I don't feel that is true at all .

But your post to me was lumping all of us who believe Jeremy to be innocent together and you know that's not true . You have seen my posts to Mike for example several times querying his theories . And asking David and Roch questions. So if you think I am going to jump onto any particular bandwagon in order to strengthen my belief then you are mistaken , and I in turn respect other posters who think he is innocent or guilty ( as long as they don't exaggerate or embellish for attention) .

And personally I don't think it is wise to take someone else's view and follow it without question .

Just because you have a legal ruling on your side  does not necessarily mean you are right.

In some ways I hope you are because I would never want to think of a man in jail for all these years on an unsafe conviction based on non disclosure or lies .   I really don't.

Jan the last point you make is very magnanimous of you to feel like that and I just wish more could feel the same way if Jeremy is found to be innocent and he is freed to have some years as a free man to try and enjoy all he has missed like a wife children and other things we all enjoy. If only some would keep an open mind and try to discuss the case as we can all learn something from a sensible debate and not scoring points.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 26, 2017, 07:13:PM
There is no grouping on either side.

I go by the forensic & circumstantial evidence. Together with no one being able to explain how Sheila committed the massacre. Other guilters don't believe that there being no Sheila scenario proves anything, which is strange. Others engaged with Bamber himself before coming to a guilty opinion.

Supporters give various reasons for support. JackieD because Julie identified the twins & Buddy because Bamber didn't lobb Julie overboard. Notsure is impressed that Bamber still protests his innocence via twitter while Nugs thinks poachers would have seen Bamber cycling to WHF.

Adam you are totally misrepresenting what people have said and summarising thier opinions with single points that are not even accurate . So personally I think you are grasping at straws.

If I take one point ( just the one) I personally do think that the fact that Julie identified the twins is a CONTRIBUTING factor to some posters opinions . Most of them find it very difficult to believe that she would identify the twins when her later statements state she KNEW he had killed them . Therefore they are of the opinion that at that point of time she did not know he was guilty in other words she thought him innocent . Because who on earth would do what she did . But that of course would mean her later statements were not true and her first statements were true.

So as I say it is a point BUT NOT the total reason some posters believe his innocence .

And if you ever want some pointers about poachers and living in the countryside please let me know😎

But I can tell you 100% owls are not the target of poachers 😀
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 26, 2017, 07:23:PM
What I'm trying to say is that the two marks are easier to make out in post 694 than they are in 687.  Hope this makes sense  :))

It makes not odds because none of those marks were there when an enlarged photograph of the back of Sheila's right hand was shown in court.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 26, 2017, 07:26:PM
There is no grouping on either side.

I go by the forensic & circumstantial evidence. Together with no one being able to explain how Sheila committed the massacre. Other guilters don't believe that there being no Sheila scenario proves anything, which is strange. Others engaged with Bamber himself before coming to a guilty opinion.

Supporters give various reasons for support. JackieD because Julie identified the twins & Buddy because Bamber didn't lobb Julie overboard. Notsure is impressed that Bamber still protests his innocence via twitter while Nugs thinks poachers would have seen Bamber cycling to WHF.


Out of interest why do you think Jeremy has spent so many years going over and over the evidence to prove his innocence when at one stage he could have been in line for parole if he had admitted guilt .

And by the way I am still waiting for that one piece of forensic evidence that proves he is responsible .


Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 26, 2017, 07:30:PM

Out of interest why do you think Jeremy has spent so many years going over and over the evidence to prove his innocence when at one stage he could have been in line for parole if he had admitted guilt .

And by the way I am still waiting for that one piece of forensic evidence that proves he is responsible .

There are a few reasons.

Wouldn't be wanting to be known as a child killer
Once he confesses, he's no longer special
If he confessed, did his time and got parole, there would be no compo and he'd go where and do what?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 26, 2017, 07:34:PM
Who has the role of Cheerleader? 

BTW, I'm not trying to convince you that Vanezis' handwritten notes were re-written.  I touted it as a possibility.   It's not my fault that SC is covered in wounds.  It's the result of either one or both other adult victims attacking her arm, and trying to restrain her, prior to losing their own lives.  They too also sustained fight injuries in return. 

Their daughter literally went berserk.

His notes have to be fake or you theory falls flat on it derriere - OK now explain why no one picked up on those cuts from the ENLARGED post mortem photograph of the back of her right hand?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 26, 2017, 07:38:PM
It makes not odds because none of those marks were there when an enlarged photograph of the back of Sheila's right hand was shown in court.

I'm not sure how you work that one out.  But anyway - the post numbers in question don't have images of Sheila's hand.  They have images of her arm.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 26, 2017, 07:39:PM
His notes have to be fake or you theory falls flat on it derriere - OK now explain why no one picked up on those cuts from the ENLARGED post mortem photograph of the back of her right hand?

Perhaps his notes are not complete?  Perhaps he described contamination separately from wounds.  You're really hanging on these notes mind  :))
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 26, 2017, 07:42:PM
And the fact he gave court testimony at the trial saying he was there as well, you missed that bit.

No, I already knew he gave testimony at trial. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 26, 2017, 07:45:PM
Perhaps his notes are not complete?  Perhaps he described contamination separately from wounds.  You're really hanging on these notes mind  :))

It has been suggested that West and Bonnett concealed the fact of Nevill's call in case it was decided to frame Jeremy for the murders. Are you suggesting that autopsy information was withheld for the same reason?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 26, 2017, 07:49:PM
There are a few reasons.

Wouldn't be wanting to be known as a child killer
Once he confesses, he's no longer special
If he confessed, did his time and got parole, there would be no compo and he'd go where and do what?
You missed one Caroline?  Could be this,

Psychopaths and sociopaths share a number of characteristics, including a lack of remorse or empathy for others, a lack of guilt or ability to take responsibility for their actions,
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 26, 2017, 07:50:PM
No, I already knew he gave testimony at trial.
Oh sorry Roch  ;)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 26, 2017, 07:51:PM
You missed one Caroline?  Could be this,

Psychopaths and sociopaths share a number of characteristics, including a lack of remorse or empathy for others, a lack of guilt or ability to take responsibility for their actions,

I see your point, but I think it's a bit harsh to label Roch a psychopath.  :o  :-\
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 26, 2017, 08:00:PM
I see your point, but I think it's a bit harsh to label Roch a psychopath.  :o  :-\
You had me worried then, I had to check it over and over again.  ;D
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 26, 2017, 08:02:PM
Adam you are totally misrepresenting what people have said and summarising thier opinions with single points that are not even accurate . So personally I think you are grasping at straws.

If I take one point ( just the one) I personally do think that the fact that Julie identified the twins is a CONTRIBUTING factor to some posters opinions . Most of them find it very difficult to believe that she would identify the twins when her later statements state she KNEW he had killed them . Therefore they are of the opinion that at that point of time she did not know he was guilty in other words she thought him innocent . Because who on earth would do what she did . But that of course would mean her later statements were not true and her first statements were true.

So as I say it is a point BUT NOT the total reason some posters believe his innocence .

And if you ever want some pointers about poachers and living in the countryside please let me know😎

But I can tell you 100% owls are not the target of poachers 😀


Reasons why Julie identified the twins

She wanted to be helpful.

She was not as upset as everyone else. As was not related to any of the deceased.

Another person volunteered but the police rejected the offer.

She still didn't believe or was not sure Bamber was guilty.

She was asked to.

She was not doing anything useful or constructive,  as had been whisked over by Bamber. So offered, or was asked.

Bamber seemed to be coping well, and could cope for a short period while Julie went to identify the bodies.

She went with another relative to give moral support.

If she didn't go with another relative, then she would have originally assumed she would be accompanied.

She believed Bamber was guilty, identifying the twins is no worse than being by his side as he acted.

She knew the twins and could identify them.

Bamber didn't offer to do this. 

No one else offerred.

Her WS was true and she felt she could communicate with them.

She offered in error. But couldn't withdraw once the offer had been made.

She wanted a break from the crime scene and police. Which was a situation she had not asked to be a part of.

She believed seeing the twins would help her come to terms with what had happened.

She was in the room when discussions about who would do this started. So not surprising she ended up doing this.

If not in the room, Bamber or someone else recommended to the police Julie could do this.

If she was asked & refused she would be criticised.

The police felt Julie was the best person. She could identify the twins but had least emotional attachment.

She had little attachment to the twins. They were her boyfriends sisters, sons.

Bamber had brought her over in a police car. She assumed this was so she could be helpful. Identifying the bodies is being helpful.

No one tried to stop her identifying the twins.

A combination of several of the above.

                                   ---------------

Well the only reason JackieD has ever given is that Julie identified the twins.

Believing she would act differently at Julie's age & her predicted reaction represents everyone. She even created a thread addressed to me on this. 

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 26, 2017, 08:16:PM

Reasons why Julie identified the twins

She wanted to be helpful.

She was not as upset as everyone else. As was not related to any of the deceased.

Another person volunteered but the police rejected the offer.

She still didn't believe or was not sure Bamber was guilty.

She was asked to.

She was not doing anything useful or constructive,  as had been whisked over by Bamber. So offered, or was asked.

Bamber seemed to be coping well, and could cope for a short period while Julie went to identify the bodies.

She went with another relative to give moral support.

If she didn't go with another relative, then she would have originally assumed she would be accompanied.

She believed Bamber was guilty, identifying the twins is no worse than being by his side as he acted.

She knew the twins and could identify them.

Bamber didn't offer to do this. 

No one else offerred.

Her WS was true and she felt she could communicate with them.

She offered in error. But couldn't withdraw once the offer had been made.

She wanted a break from the crime scene and police. Which was a situation she had not asked to be a part of.

She believed seeing the twins would help her come to terms with what had happened.

She was in the room when discussions about who would do this started. So not surprising she ended up doing this.

If not in the room, Bamber or someone else recommended to the police Julie could do this.

If she was asked & refused she would be criticised.

The police felt Julie was the best person. She could identify the twins but had least emotional attachment.

She had little attachment to the twins. They were her boyfriends sisters, sons.

Bamber had brought her over in a police car. She assumed this was so she could be helpful. Identifying the bodies is being helpful.

No one tried to stop her identifying the twins.

A combination of several of the above.

                                   ---------------

Well the only reason JackieD has ever given is that Julie identified the twins.

Believing she would act differently at Julie's age & her predicted reaction represents everyone. She even created a thread addressed to me on this.

Adam I have read all the points you have made with regard to Julie identifying the twins.  IMO Julie could not have done this if she had known her boyfriend was responsible for the death of those two wee innocent little boys.  After this traumatic experience she went home and shared his bed.









Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 26, 2017, 08:16:PM

Out of interest why do you think Jeremy has spent so many years going over and over the evidence to prove his innocence when at one stage he could have been in line for parole if he had admitted guilt .

And by the way I am still waiting for that one piece of forensic evidence that proves he is responsible .


Perfectly clean front of hands on Sheila.   

One blood mark on back of hand of Sheila. 

Extremley low levels of lead found on hands on Sheila.  Not consistent with handling a rifle. Significantly higher traces expected.

Well manicured nails on Sheila. 

No broken nails.

Nails in tact.

No marks or indentations on Sheila's fingers. 

No blood on finger tips.

No dirt on finger tips.

No powder on finger tips.

No trace of any lead dust coating on fingers.

No traces of the lubricant on fingers from re loading twice.

Very clean feet in comparison to June.

Feet free from major blood staining.

No debris such as sugar on feet

No mention of foot injuries after bare footed aggressive movement around big house & brutal fight.

No injuries in photos to neck, shoulders, legs, arms & face.

Only Sheila Caffell's blood on nightdress.

No presence of firearm residue on nightdress.

No presence of firearm residue on Sheila.

No trace of rifle oil on nightdress

No mention of nightdress damage from agressive movement and brutal kitchen fight.

Impossibility of shower removing evidence off Sheila.

Impossibility of Sheila showering after killing herself.

Nevill being bare footed in pyjamas as if just got up.

Sheila being bare footed in pyjamas as if just got up.

Paint in silencer.

Blood in silencer.

No blood in the rifle end.

Sheila's legs pulled after second shot as suggested by expert.

Sheila's blood underneath the bible.

Effects of Haloperidol.

Sheila having Haloperidol in her body.

Sheila's condition hours before the massacre.

Sheila under sedation.

Easy window entrance into WHF.

Shutting kitchen window from outside. 20 sources. 

No alternative murder weapon options.

Professor Herbert Leon Mcdonell.

Items around the kitchen window being moved. 

Easy bike route to WHF.

Bike at Bamber's cottage.

June not waking/getting shot in bed.

Nevill's back burns.

2012 CCRC court judgement.

The twins not waking.

Bamber's huge advantages over Sheila in a kitchen fight.

Bamber's call to the police rounding suspects to two.

Nevill's injuries. 

Sheila's time limits.

No valid Sheila scenario.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 26, 2017, 08:19:PM

Reasons why Julie identified the twins

She wanted to be helpful.  IF SHE WANTED TO BNE HELPFUL SHE COULD HAVE TOLD THE POLICE WHILE SHE WAS ALONE WITH THEM

She was not as upset as everyone else. As was not related to any of the deceased.  SO HER BOYFRIEND KILLED TWO CHILDREN  THAT SHE KNEW WELL ENOUGH TO ID ,SHE KNEW HE HAD DONE IT AND SHE WAS NOT UPSET

Another person volunteered but the police rejected the offer.  SO ?

She still didn't believe or was not sure Bamber was guilty.  SO HE  HAD THREATENED TO BURN THEM POISON THEM AND ON THE NIGHT SHE SAID SHE KNEW HE HAD DONE IT  BUT SHE WAS NOT SURE ?

She was asked to. SHE COULD HAVE SAID NO

She was not doing anything useful or constructive,  as had been whisked over by Bamber. So offered, or was asked. YOU ARE RIGHT THERE .SHE COULD HAVE USEFULLY AND CONSTRUCTIVELY TOLD THE POLICE ALL THAT SHE KNEW .


Bamber seemed to be coping well, and could cope for a short period while Julie went to identify the bodies. WHAT HAS THAT GOT TO DO WITH ANYTHING.?

She went with another relative to give moral support. THE RELATIVE DID NOT GO IN SO NEEDED NO SUPPORT

If she didn't go with another relative, then she would have originally assumed she would be accompanied. ??

She believed Bamber was guilty, identifying the twins is no worse than being by his side as he acted.AGAIN YOUR POINT SEEMS CONFUSED

She knew the twins and could identify them.  YES BUT WHY DO IT WHEN SHE KNEW JEREMY HAD KILLED THE M  DID SHE NOT LOVE CHILDREN ?
I
Bamber didn't offer to do this.   HOW DO YOU KNOW HE WAS EVEN ASKED.?

No one else offerred.

Her WS was true and she felt she could communicate with them. SO YOU DO BELIEVE SHE KNEW HE WAS GUILTY WHEN SHE WENT TO THE MORTUARY. .?

She offered in error. But couldn't withdraw once the offer had been made. HMMMMM

She wanted a break from the crime scene and police. Which was a situation she had not asked to be a part of. OH YES OF COURSE GOING TO ID MULIPLE DEAD BODIES GAVE HER A BREAK

She believed seeing the twins would help her come to terms with what had happened. OH THATS OK THEN

She was in the room when discussions about who would do this started. So not surprising she ended up doing this.

If not in the room, Bamber or someone else recommended to the police Julie could do this.

The police felt Julie was the best person. She could identify the twins but had least emotional attachment.

She had little attachment to the twins. They were her boyfriends sisters, sons.

Bamber had brought her over in a police car. She assumed this was so she could be helpful. Identifying the bodies is being helpful.

No one tried to stop her identifying the twins.

A combination of several of the above.

                                   ---------------

Well the only reason JackieD has ever given is that Julie identified the twins.

Believing she would act differently at Julie's age & her predicted reaction represents everyone. She even created a thread addressed to me on this.



See my points IN CAPITALS above , I just really could not go on answering your "Points" as really they just seem just disrespectful of the whole situation .

I would have believed you more if you had said Jeremy had promised her half the inheritance so she was in on it all then he dumped her .

Perhaps you should think about that because none of the above makes sense , at all .
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 26, 2017, 08:21:PM
Adam I have read all the points you have made with regard to Julie identifying the twins.  IMO Julie could not have done this if she had known her boyfriend was responsible for the death of those two wee innocent little boys.  After this traumatic experience she went home and shared his bed.

She wouldn't have done it if Bamber hadn't have got a police car to pick her up & told her 'not to go to work'.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 26, 2017, 08:22:PM

Perfectly clean front of hands on Sheila.   

One blood mark on back of hand of Sheila. 

Extremley low levels of lead found on hands on Sheila.  Not consistent with handling a rifle. Significantly higher traces expected.

Well manicured nails on Sheila. 

No broken nails.

Nails in tact.

No marks or indentations on Sheila's fingers. 

No blood on finger tips.

No dirt on finger tips.

No powder on finger tips.

No trace of any lead dust coating on fingers.

No traces of the lubricant on fingers from re loading twice.

Very clean feet in comparison to June.

Feet free from major blood staining.

No debris such as sugar on feet

No mention of foot injuries after bare footed aggressive movement around big house & brutal fight.

No injuries in photos to neck, shoulders, legs, arms & face.

Only Sheila Caffell's blood on nightdress.

No presence of firearm residue on nightdress.

No presence of firearm residue on Sheila.

No trace of rifle oil on nightdress

No mention of nightdress damage from agressive movement and brutal kitchen fight.

Impossibility of shower removing evidence off Sheila.

Impossibility of Sheila showering after killing herself.

Nevill being bare footed in pyjamas as if just got up.

Sheila being bare footed in pyjamas as if just got up.

Paint in silencer.

Blood in silencer.

No blood in the rifle end.

Sheila's legs pulled after second shot as suggested by expert.

Sheila's blood underneath the bible.

Effects of Haloperidol.

Sheila having Haloperidol in her body.

Sheila's condition hours before the massacre.

Sheila under sedation.

Easy window entrance into WHF.

Shutting kitchen window from outside. 20 sources. 

No alternative murder weapon options.

Professor Herbert Leon Mcdonell.

Items around the kitchen window being moved. 

Easy bike route to WHF.

Bike at Bamber's cottage.

June not waking/getting shot in bed.

Nevill's back burns.

2012 CCRC court judgement.

The twins not waking.

Bamber's huge advantages over Sheila in a kitchen fight.

Bamber's call to the police rounding suspects to two.

Nevill's injuries. 

Sheila's time limits.

No valid Sheila scenario.


Nope . They are your reasons . They are not forensic proof of Jeremy being responsible .

Each one of those has an answer .

So let's get back to the thread .
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 26, 2017, 08:24:PM
She wouldn't have done it if Bamber hadn't have got a police car to pick her up & told her 'not to go to work'.


That is pure assumption . She could have said no at any time .
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 26, 2017, 08:26:PM

Nope . They are your reasons . They are not forensic proof of Jeremy being responsible .

Each one of those has an answer .

So let's get back to the thread .

You did ask.

It is published evidence. A lot from the COA.

Bamber has not disputed most of this. Thread created.

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 26, 2017, 08:26:PM
Perhaps his notes are not complete?  Perhaps he described contamination separately from wounds.  You're really hanging on these notes mind  :))

There was a quote from him that said he did not put his reports in until ainsley was on the case? But surely EP would have asked for reports before then ? Or perhaps they did not because they did not think they were important ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 26, 2017, 08:27:PM
You did ask.

It is published evidence. A lot from the COA.

Bamber has not disputed most of this. Thread created.

How can he dispute the items IF HE WAS NOT THERE !

How does he know what was going on in the house ?

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 26, 2017, 08:28:PM

That is pure assumption . She could have said no at any time .

If she was still in New Cross how could she have identified the twins ?

However Bamber rang her for the third time in 7 hours to tell her 'don't go to work. A police car is coming to pick you up'.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 26, 2017, 08:30:PM
How can he dispute the items IF HE WAS NOT THERE !

How does he know what was going on in the house ?

Guess the millions of documents in his cell haven't benefitted him.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 26, 2017, 08:32:PM
If she was still in New Cross how could she have identified the twins ?

However Bamber rang her for the third time in 7 hours to tell her 'don't go to work. A police are is coming to pick you up'.


I do not get your tenuous connection. Of course someone else could have done it . She still could have said NO

I am a teacher I love children , I am too upset about the whole thing I just CANT do it.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 26, 2017, 08:36:PM

I do not get your tenuous connection. Of course someone else could have done it . She still could have said NO

I am a teacher I love children , I am too upset about the whole thing I just CANT do it.

Who else was there available who could tell the twins apart ?

Anyway, you're view is if you were a 20 year old woman suddenly put in Julie's position, you wouldn't identify the twins. However you're view does not represent everyone.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 26, 2017, 08:40:PM

I do not get your tenuous connection. Of course someone else could have done it . She still could have said NO

I am a teacher I love children , I am too upset about the whole thing I just CANT do it.

Is it possible that Julie didn't know Jeremy was responsible for the murders and only came to such a realisation afterwards?

I don't know about anybody else, but I'd run a mile if I was in that position with knowledge of who was responsible.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 26, 2017, 08:43:PM


See my points IN CAPITALS above , I just really could not go on answering your "Points" as really they just seem just disrespectful of the whole situation .

I would have believed you more if you had said Jeremy had promised her half the inheritance so she was in on it all then he dumped her .

Perhaps you should think about that because none of the above makes sense , at all .

I love the way you're so judgemental, dictatorial and convinced about what a 20 year old 'should' have done under those extreme circumstances. I wonder just how clear her thinking was that day? I wonder just how much he'd told her of his plans? I wonder how frightened she might have been in case, if she said anything, he'd implicate her. I wonder how numb she might have been? You slate her for not refusing to identify the twins. The only other person who offered was turned down by the police. Certainly, I believe it was possible for her to 'know' he'd done it, but I'll bet she didn't truly KNOW -because she hadn't experienced it- until it sunk in after she'd seen the children.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 26, 2017, 08:44:PM
Is it possible that Julie didn't know Jeremy was responsible for the murders and only came to such a realisation afterwards?

I don't know about anybody else, but I'd run a mile if I was in that position with knowledge of who was responsible.

Yes of course but it would mean that her statements were not accurate because I think to say she knew he had done it on the night and for him to have allegedly made previous actual plans to murder them would mean she was pretty thick not to realise . And she was not stupid was she ? Not according to her qualifications and her subsequent employment .

But I find it very hard to believe she did the ID knowing all she says she did .
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 26, 2017, 08:46:PM
Is it possible that Julie didn't know Jeremy was responsible for the murders and only came to such a realisation afterwards?

I don't know about anybody else, but I'd run a mile if I was in that position with knowledge of who was responsible.

Yeah, I can go with that, H. I can't say categorically what I'd have done, but it would probably have involved a lot of vomiting through sheer terror.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 26, 2017, 08:50:PM
Yes of course but it would mean that her statements were not accurate because I think to say she knew he had done it on the night and for him to have allegedly made previous actual plans to murder them would mean she was pretty thick not to realise . And she was not stupid was she ? Not according to her qualifications and her subsequent employment .

But I find it very hard to believe she did the ID knowing all she says she did .

Has she said she categorically knew on the night? Has she said she even suspected on the night?
I can't remember without going through her statements again.

She must have discussed things with JB afterwards at some stage though, perhaps she became more suspicious which made JB come up with the hit man story (if indeed he did).
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 26, 2017, 08:52:PM
Is it possible that Julie didn't know Jeremy was responsible for the murders and only came to such a realisation afterwards?

I don't know about anybody else, but I'd run a mile if I was in that position with knowledge of who was responsible.
She probably regrets doing a lot of things, don't we all when we look back on life?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 26, 2017, 08:52:PM
According to CAL and SOCO Neil Davidson - he was.  However he was not down on the list of officers who entered the building.  A DC Henderson was.  CAL puts this down to an error in recording. 

Hammersley broke down when interviewed by COLP and mentioned something about his marriage breaking up.  He was disciplined for something case related but I cant find what it was.

He was interviewed, not sure about disciplined though? Some time long ago it was stated that he wasn't at the scene when he said he was but I have never found anything to back this up. Regardless of that, his court testimony shows that there was an enlarged photograph of Sheila's right hand and no one saw any cuts.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 26, 2017, 08:54:PM
I love the way you're so judgemental, dictatorial and convinced about what a 20 year old 'should' have done under those extreme circumstances. I wonder just how clear her thinking was that day? I wonder just how much he'd told her of his plans? I wonder how frightened she might have been in case, if she said anything, he'd implicate her. I wonder how numb she might have been? You slate her for not refusing to identify the twins. The only other person who offered was turned down by the police. Certainly, I believe it was possible for her to 'know' he'd done it, but I'll bet she didn't truly KNOW -because she hadn't experienced it- until it sunk in after she'd seen the children.
[/quote


I am judgemental and Dictorial ?

  Because she left out vital bits out of her statements and changed her whole story ?

Wonder where I got that attitude from . Perhaps it's posters being equally judgemental and dictorial about Jeremy and how he would act .



Also I do think if we want to be honest her story in the news of the world did not seem to be the actions of some little shy scared shrinking violet .

But of course if it keeps you happy  all my posts will in future be of course  in my opinion only .








Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 26, 2017, 08:55:PM
Perhaps his notes are not complete?  Perhaps he described contamination separately from wounds.  You're really hanging on these notes mind  :))

Not just the notes, the enlarged post mortem photographs too - you're hanging on by a very weak thread  :P ;D ;D
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 26, 2017, 08:55:PM
Has she said she categorically knew on the night? Has she said she even suspected on the night?
I can't remember without going through her statements again.

She must have discussed things with JB afterwards at some stage though, perhaps she became more suspicious which made JB come up with the hit man story (if indeed he did).

Yes after the second phone call to the house .



Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on July 26, 2017, 08:56:PM
Has she said she categorically knew on the night? Has she said she even suspected on the night?
I can't remember without going through her statements again.

She must have discussed things with JB afterwards at some stage though, perhaps she became more suspicious which made JB come up with the hit man story (if indeed he did).
I think she knew after the second telephone call to her digs at Caterham Road:

"I lay in bed but did not go to sleep as I knew that Jerry had murdered his family."
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 26, 2017, 08:59:PM
Yeah, I can go with that, H. I can't say categorically what I'd have done, but it would probably have involved a lot of vomiting through sheer terror.

I'd have to agree. I think I'd be happy (happy is the wrong word) to do the identification, but not with the knowledge of who was responsible.

Of course it may be possible that Julie is not like you and I. You only have to look at the people who get turned on by killers, some of the most evil killers behind bars seem to have a string of fans, even with the knowledge of their actions.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 26, 2017, 09:00:PM
Page 13 of her sept statement.

I lay in bed but did not go to sleep as I knew that Jeremy had murdered his family.



Her words .
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 26, 2017, 09:03:PM
Yes after the second phone call to the house .

Could that not have been the case, and she simply added embellishment later on?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 26, 2017, 09:04:PM
It's likely the police asked Julie to identify the twins. They had already turned down another person as she had spoken to the media.

There was no one else there who could tell the twins apart. The police knew Julie was not a relation so was unlikely to be so upset.

But as mentioned, Julie could have refused to assist the police, Bamber & the relations.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 26, 2017, 09:06:PM
Honestly I know others will dispute this but I don't think she did know and to clarify this is only a feeling , but I think the police possibly spoke to her earlier than we think and convinced her he did it and coached her how to embellish things that had happened in the past . I am not sure why exactly she was convinced but I do genuinely think a t the time of the funerals and the morgue visit she did not have a clue , but that does mean her statements are not true .

That does not implicate either way whether Jeremy is guilty or not , perhaps she went along with the police because she did think he was capable , I don't know .

But nothing that she said in her statements about his plans of poison or burning etc can be proved . It was her word against his . So quite clever really .

IMO
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 26, 2017, 09:08:PM
Not just the notes, the enlarged post mortem photographs too - you're hanging on by a very weak thread  :P ;D ;D


How can any of those officers say her hands were perfectly clean though . They obviously were not .
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 26, 2017, 09:10:PM
Honestly I know others will dispute this but I don't think she did know and to clarify this is only a feeling , but I think the police possibly spoke to her earlier than we think and convinced her he did it and coached her how to embellish things that had happened in the past . I am not sure why exactly she was convinced but I do genuinely think a t the time of the funerals and the morgue visit she did not have a clue , but that does mean her statements are not true .

That does not implicate either way whether Jeremy is guilty or not , perhaps she went along with the police because she did think he was capable , I don't know .

But nothing that she said in her statements about his plans of poison or burning etc can be proved . It was her word against his . So quite clever really .

IMO

When did the police speak to her earlier ? She was with Bamber virtually all the time in the 20 days after the massacre before she betrayed him.

She was also still with Bamber when she betrayed him.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 26, 2017, 09:10:PM
Could that not have been the case, and she simply added embellishment later on?
She said this later Hartley.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1043.0;attach=5430
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 26, 2017, 09:11:PM
Honestly I know others will dispute this but I don't think she did know and to clarify this is only a feeling , but I think the police possibly spoke to her earlier than we think and convinced her he did it and coached her how to embellish things that had happened in the past . I am not sure why exactly she was convinced but I do genuinely think a t the time of the funerals and the morgue visit she did not have a clue , but that does mean her statements are not true .

That does not implicate either way whether Jeremy is guilty or not , perhaps she went along with the police because she did think he was capable , I don't know .

But nothing that she said in her statements about his plans of poison or burning etc can be proved . It was her word against his . So quite clever really .

IMO

Any way you look at it, she certainly doesn't come out of any of this looking good.

I do think some views given on the forum about her are too black and white.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 26, 2017, 09:15:PM
She said this later Hartley.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1043.0;attach=5430

Well that certainly provides an explanation.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 26, 2017, 09:22:PM
Well that certainly provides an explanation.
I can agree with certain things she said, I knew my son in law had committed something terrible my daughter didn't think one minute he'd done it, I didn't want to believe it and it puts you in a confused state in your head hoping your wrong.  I couldn't  talk or tell anyone about it for a year.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 26, 2017, 09:26:PM
I can agree with certain things she said, I knew my son in law had committed something terrible my daughter didn't think one minute he'd done it, I didn't want to believe it and it puts you in a confused state in your head hoping your wrong.  I couldn't  talk or tell anyone about it for a year.
I will just add to this as well, you think no one will believe you if you say anything, this would have put me in an even worse position.  Hope this helps for people who have never been there.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 26, 2017, 09:27:PM

How can any of those officers say her hands were perfectly clean though . They obviously were not .

Who said 'perfectly clean'?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 26, 2017, 09:29:PM

How can any of those officers say her hands were perfectly clean though . They obviously were not .
Jan have you read the report wherein it states this hahaha forgot the guys name
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 26, 2017, 09:30:PM

How can any of those officers say her hands were perfectly clean though . They obviously were not .

Statements prepared for application to the CPS by police seem to be made to cover particular points. Her hands being clean must have been important to the case.

How clean were her hands? Well we can see blood staining to her wrist and a small stain on the back of her index finger, we can't see her palm or the insides of her fingers but Vanezis notes that they were free from blood staining.

If Vanezis is accurate, and we have no reason to doubt him, then on balance, a description of her hands being perfectly clean appears to be an accurate description.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 26, 2017, 09:32:PM
Statements prepared for application to the CPS by police seem to be made to cover particular points. Her hands being clean must have been important to the case.

How clean were her hands? Well we can see blood staining to her wrist and a small stain on the back of her index finger, we can't see her palm or the insides of her fingers but Vanezis notes that they were free from blood staining.

If Vanezis is accurate, and we have no reason to doubt him, then on balance, a description of her hands being perfectly clean appears to be an accurate description.

No print left on the nightdress from her palm then ?

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 26, 2017, 09:33:PM
I love the way you're so judgemental, dictatorial and convinced about what a 20 year old 'should' have done under those extreme circumstances. I wonder just how clear her thinking was that day? I wonder just how much he'd told her of his plans? I wonder how frightened she might have been in case, if she said anything, he'd implicate her. I wonder how numb she might have been? You slate her for not refusing to identify the twins. The only other person who offered was turned down by the police. Certainly, I believe it was possible for her to 'know' he'd done it, but I'll bet she didn't truly KNOW -because she hadn't experienced it- until it sunk in after she'd seen the children.
[/quote


I am judgemental and Dictorial ?

  Because she left out vital bits out of her statements and changed her whole story ?

Wonder where I got that attitude from . Perhaps it's posters being equally judgemental and dictorial about Jeremy and how he would act .



Also I do think if we want to be honest her story in the news of the world did not seem to be the actions of some little shy scared shrinking violet .

But of course if it keeps you happy  all my posts will in future be of course  in my opinion only .

I would be the first to agree that her actions, post trial, weren't those of "some little shy scared shrinking violet", but her relief that it was all over is surely understandable. I suspect too, that fear would have rendered her less up front than she would usually have been.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 26, 2017, 09:35:PM
I can agree with certain things she said, I knew my son in law had committed something terrible my daughter didn't think one minute he'd done it, I didn't want to believe it and it puts you in a confused state in your head hoping your wrong.  I couldn't  talk or tell anyone about it for a year.

Yes but Julie was very clear about all the plans he had discussed with her before hand . Very explicit . So not exactly a shock .
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 26, 2017, 09:39:PM
Yes but Julie was very clear about all the plans he had discussed with her before hand . Very explicit . So not exactly a shock .
I know Jan, I have never agreed with what Julie did totally, I just said parts of her statement I could agree with, you just want it to go away if that makes sense?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 26, 2017, 09:39:PM
No print left on the nightdress from her palm then ?

No, if her palms were clean then that is not possible.

Yes Vanezis suggests a palm print initially in his notes, but he later indicates her palms were clean. I can see the apparent contradiction and I do not have the answer for it. There are suggestions that it was a stain transferred from her wrist, or by her killer (Macdonnell suggested this). I personally do not find this troubling, we do not know the precise goings on that evening.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 26, 2017, 09:42:PM
Who else was there available who could tell the twins apart ?

Anyway, you're view is if you were a 20 year old woman suddenly put in Julie's position, you wouldn't identify the twins. However you're view does not represent everyone.

Hopefully someone else will answer my question I asked Jan in reply 739.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 26, 2017, 09:44:PM
I know Jan, I have never agreed with what Julie did totally, I just said parts of her statement I could agree with, you just want it to go away if that makes sense?

Justice, I too, have never condoned what she did but it doesn't mean I can't empathize with the reasons for her doing it. Just wanting it to go away makes perfect sense...........to me.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 26, 2017, 09:46:PM
Yes but Julie was very clear about all the plans he had discussed with her before hand . Very explicit . So not exactly a shock .

I think a person fantasising about killing people is one thing (and quite despicable), to actually go through with is quite another.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 26, 2017, 09:48:PM
Justice, I too, have never condoned what she did but it doesn't mean I can't empathize with the reasons for her doing it. Just wanting it to go away makes perfect sense...........to me.
Thanks Jane, I've been put in two terrible positions in my life, not through choice or my fault, it does your head in and you would give/do anything to get rid.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 26, 2017, 09:49:PM
I think a person fantasising about killing people is one thing (and quite despicable), to actually go through with is quite another.

Absolutely H. The safest place for fantasies is generally inside our heads. Once we start to give them voice, the next stage, unless someone discourages us, is to act them out!!!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 26, 2017, 09:51:PM
No, if her palms were clean then that is not possible.

Yes Vanezis suggests a palm print initially in his notes, but he later indicates her palms were clean. I can see the apparent contradiction and I do not have the answer for it. There are suggestions that it was a stain transferred from her wrist, or by her killer (Macdonnell suggested this). I personally do not find this troubling, we do not know the precise goings on that evening.
you see the trouble with your argument involves the fact that according to DC Hammersley, as soon as he removed the plastic hand bags, he proceeded to take hand swabs, thus destroying any blood that was present on her palms and her fingers!We all know she had blood on her hands and fingers, we can see it in some of the photographs, but DC Hammersley destroyed any prospect of the extent of blood there by taking hand swabs as stated...
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 26, 2017, 09:57:PM
I think a person fantasising about killing people is one thing (and quite despicable), to actually go through with is quite another.

Yeah, only Jeremy didn't kill the other four, Sheila did! And Jeremy had no opportunity of killing his sister on the bedroom floor and staging her death scene there as a suicide, after her body was reported present downstairs in the kitchen, and later upstairs on the bed in the main bedroom, cops are responsible for doing that! Ann Eaton knows this is true, she was told by Jones and Clark that they had seen Sheila and Junes bodies laid on top of the bed, the rifle inbetween both bodies!!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 26, 2017, 09:59:PM
you see the trouble with your argument involves the fact that according to DC Hammersley, as soon as he removed the plastic hand bags, he proceeded to take hand swabs, thus destroying any blood that was present on her palms and her fingers!We all know she had blood on her hands and fingers, we can see it in some of the photographs, but DC Hammersley destroyed any prospect of the extent of blood there by taking hand swabs as stated...

I'm not making an argument.

The trouble with your argument is that people would be required to accept your assertions on face value alone. Unfortunately there is usually a pinch or two of salt not too far away.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 26, 2017, 10:02:PM
Yeah, only Jeremy didn't kill the other four, Sheila did! And Jeremy had no opportunity of killing his sister on the bedroom floor and staging her death scene there as a suicide, after her body was reported present downstairs in the kitchen, and later upstairs on the bed in the main bedroom, cops are responsible for doing that! Ann Eaton knows this is true, she was told by Jones and Clark that they had seen Sheila and Junes bodies laid on top of the bed, the rifle inbetween both bodies!!

Its utterly amazing that these relatives should kick up a fuss because they believed Sheila could not have been responsible, yet when faced with speaking out about what cops told them, for example, that Sheila's and Junes bodies had been found on the bed with the rifle on the bed, they choose to stay silent because to speak out damages the prosecutions case that got them what they wanted! Why isn't Ann Eaton screaming from the roof tops that Sheila's and Junes bodies were on top of the bed when Jones and Clark visited the main bedroom at about 9.10am, or that Sheila had only been shot once by that stage?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 26, 2017, 10:06:PM
Its utterly amazing that these relatives should kick up a fuss because they believed Sheila could not have been responsible, yet when faced with speaking out about what cops told them, for example, that Sheila's and Junes bodies had been found on the bed with the rifle on the bed, they choose to stay silent because to speak out damages the prosecutions case that got them what they wanted! Why isn't Ann Eaton screaming from the roof tops that Sheila's and Junes bodies were on top of the bed when Jones and Clark visited the main bedroom at about 9.10am, or that Sheila had only been shot once by that stage?

So imagine that your entire family had just been slaughtered. Are you trying to tell us that your mind would be clear enough to make rational and intelligent judgement calls within minutes of being told?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 26, 2017, 10:07:PM
I'm not making an argument.

The trouble with your argument is that people would be required to accept your assertions on face value alone. Unfortunately there is usually a pinch or two of salt not too far away.

Sheila was on the bed, before cops moved her body to the floor! Ann Eaton was told that by Jones and Clark! Sheila had only been shot once by that stage! The rifle was on the bed inbetween the bodies of Sheila and June! There was a bible on top of Sheila's chest! Now, which part don't you understand?

How can Jeremy have shot and killed his sister on the bedroom floor, and staged her death scene there as a suicide afterwards? Why isn't Ann Eaton and the other relatives kicking off about these very serious anomalies in the police and the CPS case?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 26, 2017, 10:10:PM
Hopefully someone else will answer my question I asked Jan in reply 739.

I thought Colin's girlfriend had offered and I am sure there were others available it did not have to be done specifically on that day . And it was not necessary for one person to identify all of the bodies.

If you have read Colin's book you will see there was a wide circle of family and friends who knew the twins very well.



Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 26, 2017, 10:12:PM
So imagine that your entire family had just been slaughtered. Are you trying to tell us that your mind would be clear enough to make rational and intelligent judgement calls within minutes of being told?

Why isn't Ann Eaton questioning the scenario that cops found Sheila's body on the bedroom floor in possession of the anshuzt rifle, when she knows full well that Stan Jones, and Mick Clark told her at Jeremys cottage that the twins were found shot in their beds, that Neville Bamber was found in the kitchen shot, and that the bodies of Sheila and June were found on top of the bed in the main bedroom, with the rifle on the bed inbetween both bodies, and Sheila had a bible on her chest? Surely, she must have realised when the case came to trial that cops and the prosecution were claiming that Sheila had been found on the bedroom floor in possession of a rifle, which Ann Eaton and all the other relatives had been informed was totally bonkers, inaccurate and untrue!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 26, 2017, 10:14:PM
we can see blood staining to her wrist and a small stain on the back of her index finger

What you are attempting to describe here, are actually three 'blobs' of congealed blood, each being adjacent to (or incorporating) corresponding areas of broken skin. From the three visible congealed blobs, there are dappled runs of blood which appear to phase out on the underside of her wrist.  A fourth area of broken skin (closest to her hand) has produced a lesser dappled run of blood - but unlike the other three, there is no congealed blob.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'back' - but mark on the side if her index finger is an angled cut with a specific shape - almost rhomboid in nature.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 26, 2017, 10:15:PM
Sheila was on the bed, before cops moved her body to the floor! Ann Eaton was told that by Jones and Clark! Sheila had only been shot once by that stage! The rifle was on the bed inbetween the bodies of Sheila and June! There was a bible on top of Sheila's chest! Now, which part don't you understand?

How can Jeremy have shot and killed his sister on the bedroom floor, and staged her death scene there as a suicide afterwards? Why isn't Ann Eaton and the other relatives kicking off about these very serious anomalies in the police and the CPS case?

You can go on saying that till the cows come home, but the bottom line is that, as there are no pictures -other than those you claim to have seen, but no one else has- and the policemen in question haven't produced witness statements to that effect, very few are likely to believe it. Would you believe evidence that you hadn't seen?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 26, 2017, 10:18:PM
I thought Colin's girlfriend had offered and I am sure there were others available it did not have to be done specifically on that day . And it was not necessary for one person to identify all of the bodies.

If you have read Colin's book you will see there was a wide circle of family and friends who knew the twins very well.

You thought wrong. Unless you have a source.

The police wanted it done on that day. Julie was there and could tell the twins apart.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 26, 2017, 10:19:PM
You can go on saying that till the cows come home, but the bottom line is that, as there are no pictures -other than those you claim to have seen, but no one else has- and the policemen in question haven't produced witness statements to that effect, very few are likely to believe it. Would you believe evidence that you hadn't seen?

To be fair, Mat (who claimed in some way to be linked or at least have inside info re the CCRC) posted on this forum that there was a photo of Sheila on the bed. He actually tried to describe it in a post. I'm not saying he was right and there is - however - he did concur with Mike that there was.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 26, 2017, 10:21:PM
Except double quotes aren't present on that document. In the description column various codes are mentioned only two specifically relate to the nightdress, BOTH indicate that A blood type was discovered when tested. I have no idea what the other items relate to but they don't relate to the nightdress.

I don't quite see that

They are under and refer to exhibit 19

Otherwise another exhibit number would be in that section and there is more than one type of blood in the blood group column .

Are you saying they found another blood group on another exhibit and we are supposed to guess what exhibit number it is ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 26, 2017, 10:24:PM
I don't quite see that

They are under and refer to exhibit 19

Otherwise another exhibit number would be in that section and there is more than one type of blood in the blood group column .

Are you saying they found another blood group on another exhibit and we are supposed to guess what exhibit number it is ?

Do you think they relate to blood serum testing as control tests to give validation?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 26, 2017, 10:27:PM
It gets worse, because at 8.44am, the police surgeon, Dr Craig, reports Sheila's body 'on the far side of the bed', with the rifle 'laying alongside her body', and by 9am, we have PS Adams claiming he had no recollection of the gun being with Sheila's body when he visited the main bedroom, and then the Coroners Officer, PC Wright stating that when he arrived at the scene and viewed Sheila's body at 9.30am, the rifle had been removed from Sheila's body by that stage, yet by the time the second SOCO team (Cook, Bird, Davidson and Hammersley) take control of the crime scene after 10am, the rifle is in Sheila Caffells possession on the bedroom floor! So, we need a proper explanation as to how the rifle which was resting against the first floor box room window at around 7.15am, ends up in the main bedroom by 8.44am, to be alongside Sheila Caffells body! We need an explanation of where the 'missing rifle' was at 9am when PS Adams viewed Sheila's body, and we need an explanation for why at around 9.10am when Jones and Clark viewed Sheila's body the rifle was on the bed inbetween both bodies (Sheila and June), and we need an explanation as to where at 9.30am, the rifle was when The Coroners officer, PC Wright, visited the main bedroom scenario, with the rifle having been removed from Sheila's body by that stage, and we need an explanation as to why DC Oakey and DC Henderson photographed the rifle leaning next to the main bedroom window as shown inphotograph no. 23, and we need an explanation as to how come after Oakey and Henderson took photograph no. 23, how the rifle then ended up on Sheila Caffells body with its barrell resting against the left side of her neck (as in photograph no. 26), and we then need an explanation as to how the position of that rifle was moved on the body of Sheila Caffell in time for PC Bird (after 10am) to photograph Sheila in possession of the rifle which was in a different position in photographs, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, etc, etc, and we need an explanation as to why the second SOCO team have falsely claimed that they took photographs of an 'undisturbed' body of Sheila Caffell in possession of the gun...

On and on the discrepancies go, a whole catelog of dishonesty and corruption at its worst!!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 26, 2017, 10:29:PM
You can go on saying that till the cows come home, but the bottom line is that, as there are no pictures -other than those you claim to have seen, but no one else has- and the policemen in question haven't produced witness statements to that effect, very few are likely to believe it. Would you believe evidence that you hadn't seen?

You obviously support corrupt actions of the police and the CPS...
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on July 26, 2017, 10:29:PM
Do you think they relate to blood serum testing as control tests to give validation?

I don't really understand it but you looked at this before and posted this:

well the bb numbers are to do with testing serum in the blood


"serum and see the following: .... BB1 BB2 BB3 BB4 BB5 BB6 BB7 BB8 BB9 BB10 BB11 BB12 BB13 BB14 BB15 BB16 BB17 BB18 BB19 BB20 BB21"


this is from an American site about blood grouping / proving parenthood etc.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 26, 2017, 10:32:PM
I thought Colin's girlfriend had offered and I am sure there were others available it did not have to be done specifically on that day . And it was not necessary for one person to identify all of the bodies.

If you have read Colin's book you will see there was a wide circle of family and friends who knew the twins very well.

As you seem to be heaping the responsibility for the identifications onto Julie, I wonder just how much power you believe her to have wielded. True, Colin's girlfriend offered but the police thought she'd be of more use staying with Colin. There probably "were others available". Did they come forward? Who says "it did not have to be done specifically that day"? Who says "it was not necessary for one person to identify all of the bodies"? Did Julie have to identify ALL the bodies or just the children? Whilst it's true that Colin had "a wide circle of family and friends who knew the twins very well" I imagine they all lived in and around London so weren't exactly on the spot. Even if they had been, how do you know they'd have volunteered their services? It's no good whinging about what Julie shouldn't have done. I don't imagine the police wanted the formalities hanging around and Julie was there. She didn't have to be transported from out of county. In the absence of other suitable candidates, Julie was considered good enough. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 26, 2017, 10:33:PM
Sheila Caffells death scene was staged by some of the most wicked, evil, senior Essex police detectives and police officers - the lot of them are 'scum of the earth'!!!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 26, 2017, 10:34:PM
Sheila Caffells death scene was staged by some of the most wicked, evil, senior Essex police detectives and police officers - the lot of them are 'scum of the earth'!!!

Their counterparts in crime, the CPS are just as evil, wicked, and despicable!!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: JackieD on July 26, 2017, 10:35:PM
Who has the role of Cheerleader? 

BTW, I'm not trying to convince you that Vanezis' handwritten notes were re-written.  I touted it as a possibility.   It's not my fault that SC is covered in wounds.  It's the result of either one or both other adult victims attacking her arm, and trying to restrain her, prior to losing their own lives.  They too also sustained fight injuries in return. 

Their daughter literally went berserk.

Absolutely Roch
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 26, 2017, 10:39:PM
These xxxx even created false photographic schedules to hide their dishonesty!

They concealed 358 photographs from the defence, by introducing a misleading album, entitled, 'THE MASTER COPY ALBUM' (223 photographs) which did not include another 358 damning images all capable of exposing what these wicked, dishonest cops had done! Oh, and we have the CCRC saying they all all 401 negatives as though its the be all, and end all of the matter, when there are a further 180 negatives still missing and unaccounted for!

Talk about xxxxxxxxxx and xxxxxxxxxxx at its worst!!
Xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx, the lot of 'em..
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 26, 2017, 10:43:PM
I know with 100% certainty that cops staged Sheila Caffells death scene on the main bedroom floor, and that Jeremy Bamber did not shoot his sister dead, and he couldn't have staged her death scene there on the main bedroom floor because cops have agreed that her body was found on the bed, and cops have told Ann Eaton this, but lo and behold the relatives ain't kicking off about any of this because it means that Jeremy Bamber is 'innocent'...
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: JackieD on July 26, 2017, 10:47:PM
Sorry you feel like that because I don't feel that is true at all .

But your post to me was lumping all of us who believe Jeremy to be innocent together and you know that's not true . You have seen my posts to Mike for example several times querying his theories . And asking David and Roch questions. So if you think I am going to jump onto any particular bandwagon in order to strengthen my belief then you are mistaken , and I in turn respect other posters who think he is innocent or guilty ( as long as they don't exaggerate or embellish for attention) .

And personally I don't think it is wise to take someone else's view and follow it without question .

Just because you have a legal ruling on your side  does not necessarily mean you are right.

In some ways I hope you are because I would never want to think of a man in jail for all these years on an unsafe conviction based on non disclosure or lies .   I really don't.

Jeremy is a very lucky man to have someone like you on his side questioning this conviction. I agree with everything you have written
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 26, 2017, 10:48:PM
It beggars belief that members of the public actually believe what cops are saying! Saying that they found Sheila's body on the bedroom floor in possession of the rifle, shot twice, and that somehow this poor chap Jeremy Bamber staged his sisters death scene there intent on fooling the police into accepting that she had taken her own life - Oh, yeah, sure he did! No wonder miscarriages of justice happen with brainwashed members of the public blind to the truth!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: JackieD on July 26, 2017, 10:49:PM
Jan the last point you make is very magnanimous of you to feel like that and I just wish more could feel the same way if Jeremy is found to be innocent and he is freed to have some years as a free man to try and enjoy all he has missed like a wife children and other things we all enjoy. If only some would keep an open mind and try to discuss the case as we can all learn something from a sensible debate and not scoring points.

Ditto
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 26, 2017, 10:55:PM
It beggars belief that members of the public actually believe what cops are saying! Saying that they found Sheila's body on the bedroom floor in possession of the rifle, shot twice, and that somehow this poor chap Jeremy Bamber staged his sisters death scene there intent on fooling the police into accepting that she had taken her own life - Oh, yeah, sure he did! No wonder miscarriages of justice happen with brainwashed members of the public blind to the truth!

I think there are members of the public that do believe him .

But it's proving it that is the problem and also people do respect the law on the whole and it is very hard to publicly defend someone accused of a multiple murder .

If he is innocent the proof is there somewhere . It's in those photos or in those statements somewhere .

It's in the time of Sheila's death

Or the fact that someone did move about in the house

Or someone knows there was a second call from Neville to the police

Any of those three things would prove his innocence .

That's why I think the home office should offer an amnesty in this case .

IMO😇
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: JackieD on July 26, 2017, 11:05:PM
Page 13 of her sept statement.

I lay in bed but did not go to sleep as I knew that Jeremy had murdered his family.



Her words .

Thanks Jan
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 26, 2017, 11:19:PM
I think there are members of the public that do believe him .

But it's proving it that is the problem and also people do respect the law on the whole and it is very hard to publicly defend someone accused of a multiple murder .

If he is innocent the proof is there somewhere . It's in those photos or in those statements somewhere .

It's in the time of Sheila's death

Or the fact that someone did move about in the house

Or someone knows there was a second call from Neville to the police

Any of those three things would prove his innocence .

That's why I think the home office should offer an amnesty in this case .

IMO😇
You say if he is innocent?   Yet want the home office to offer an amnesty in this case?  Yes let's free him because he might be innocent in your view.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 26, 2017, 11:36:PM
I'm not sure how you work that one out.  But anyway - the post numbers in question don't have images of Sheila's hand.  They have images of her arm.

You have argued that she has cuts on her hands, the pictures you (or Bill) posted were supposed to show that. However, we have Venezis's notes that make no mention of such cuts and we have enlarged pictures of her right hand being shown in court and again, no such cuts are visible.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 26, 2017, 11:44:PM
Sorry you feel like that because I don't feel that is true at all .

But your post to me was lumping all of us who believe Jeremy to be innocent together and you know that's not true . You have seen my posts to Mike for example several times querying his theories . And asking David and Roch questions. So if you think I am going to jump onto any particular bandwagon in order to strengthen my belief then you are mistaken , and I in turn respect other posters who think he is innocent or guilty ( as long as they don't exaggerate or embellish for attention) .

And personally I don't think it is wise to take someone else's view and follow it without question .

Just because you have a legal ruling on your side  does not necessarily mean you are right.

In some ways I hope you are because I would never want to think of a man in jail for all these years on an unsafe conviction based on non disclosure or lies .   I really don't.

Who would?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 27, 2017, 12:21:AM
You have argued that she has cuts on her hands, the pictures you (or Bill) posted were supposed to show that. However, we have Venezis's notes that make no mention of such cuts and we have enlarged pictures of her right hand being shown in court and again, no such cuts are visible.

You keep assuming the so called enlarged pictures were of sufficient quality that the wounds could recognised as such and not deiberately passed off as 'smearing'.  Besides, I don't believe you couldn't see them for yourself.  You tried to cover your bases - by suggesting they might be wounds caused by the barrel or sound moderator.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 27, 2017, 07:59:AM
I think there are members of the public that do believe him .

But it's proving it that is the problem and also people do respect the law on the whole and it is very hard to publicly defend someone accused of a multiple murder .

If he is innocent the proof is there somewhere . It's in those photos or in those statements somewhere .

It's in the time of Sheila's death

Or the fact that someone did move about in the house

Or someone knows there was a second call from Neville to the police

Any of those three things would prove his innocence .

That's why I think the home office should offer an amnesty in this case .

IMO😇

I don't know how you can correlate "IF he's innocent.........." -the "IF" implying you're not really certain- followed by things you think would prove it and the suggestion of an amnesty. As it stands, you're advocating the release of a guilty man and a child murderer. I'd hazard a guess that Jeremy's case isn't the only one that some apply a question mark to. Perhaps we should offer them all an amnesty.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 27, 2017, 08:22:AM
You say if he is innocent?   Yet want the home office to offer an amnesty in this case?  Yes let's free him because he might be innocent in your view.


No you misunderstood me . I am not that stupid  >:(

I meant offer an amnesty to anyone who would come forward with information on the case. So if there was an officer who had been there and knew something that would prove his innocence he would retain his pension etc and not be prosecuted .
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 27, 2017, 08:26:AM
So now I am xxxxxxxxxx as well . Your posts are getting extremely personal .

 
 Unless they had been asked and said no , you can't assume things either .

How do you know they weren't? The bottom line remains, SURELY, why go to the expense of both man power and time by going out of county to look for and transport possible 'candidates' when there was one who was willing right there on the doorstep. I'm not certain WHO it is you're lumping blame on here. Is it Julie, for offering? Is it everyone concerned OTHER than Julie for not offering, OR is it the police because you think they were to lazy to widen their search?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 27, 2017, 10:19:AM

No you misunderstood me . I am not that stupid  >:(

I meant offer an amnesty to anyone who would come forward with information on the case. So if there was an officer who had been there and knew something that would prove his innocence he would retain his pension etc and not be prosecuted .

I said this years ago - but apparently an amnesty was offered behind the scenes during COLP.. There were some disciplinary matters though. However if COLP or their bosses chose not to officially disclose the whole of what was discovered - those officers who coughed-up were arguably absolved (in their own minds). This might be one reason why there is a reluctance to speak out further. To expose EP is effectively to expose COLP and expose the integrity of such enquiries.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 27, 2017, 10:22:AM

No you misunderstood me . I am not that stupid  >:(

I meant offer an amnesty to anyone who would come forward with information on the case. So if there was an officer who had been there and knew something that would prove his innocence he would retain his pension etc and not be prosecuted .
I never said you was, it just came across that way.  I don't agree with you, if anyone has been corrupt they should be prosecuted, a snitch coming forward now after a man has spent this long in prison, nah.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 27, 2017, 10:30:AM
I never said you was, it just came across that way.  I don't agree with you, if anyone has been corrupt they should be prosecuted, a snitch coming forward now after a man has spent this long in prison nah.

Oh, I totally agree, Justice. Supporters between them have created a cast, of conspirators, of thousands. The more who get added the more difficult it becomes for anyone to snitch. There'd be way too much -and too many- involved. As for the snitch(es) being assured of the safety of their pensions, I'd think most, by now wouldn't be TOO concerned about that. There're all, by now, likely to be mid to late 70's.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 27, 2017, 10:38:AM
Oh, I totally agree, Justice. Supporters between them have created a cast, of conspirators, of thousands.

No they haven't. Not at all. It was explained very well on a recent thread.

Also, after a certain point in proceedings, it becomes messy and political. It is easier to stonewall and claim 'all subsequent enquiries and appeals have not uncovered any evidence that could undermine the safety of Mr Bamber's conviction' - than to face and expose something distasteful and uncomfortable.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 27, 2017, 10:49:AM
Oh, I totally agree, Justice. Supporters between them have created a cast, of conspirators, of thousands. The more who get added the more difficult it becomes for anyone to snitch. There'd be way too much -and too many- involved. As for the snitch(es) being assured of the safety of their pensions, I'd think most, by now wouldn't be TOO concerned about that. There're all, by now, likely to be mid to late 70's.
Its seems Bamber let out at all costs then, amnesty to all and while we're at it let's hide their identity so they don't face a public backlash.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 27, 2017, 10:51:AM
No they haven't. Not at all. It was explained very well on a recent thread.

Also, after a certain point in proceedings, it becomes messy and political. It is easier to stonewall and claim 'all subsequent enquiries and appeals have not uncovered any evidence that could undermine the safety of Mr Bamber's conviction' - than to face and expose something distasteful and uncomfortable.

From where I'm sitting, YES, they have! For everyone whose been labeled 'corrupt', others, necessarily, have been dragged in, meaning that, by now, there's an entire platoon of co-conspirators. I wonder how it was explained to the second doctor why he was only required to certify one death when all the others had been certified and why there is no WS from that doctor, and I wonder how the first doctor's WS was accepted as correct after he'd allegedly not seen that the victim was still alive? That's just ONE example. No one has ever suggested that the inquiry was anything more than a mess, but there are MILES of possibilities between a messed up inquiry and a gross conspiracy, NONE of it making Jeremy innocent but MUCH of it being their own fault that questions have been raised.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 27, 2017, 11:16:AM
From where I'm sitting, YES, they have! For everyone whose been labeled 'corrupt', others, necessarily, have been dragged in, meaning that, by now, there's an entire platoon of co-conspirators. I wonder how it was explained to the second doctor why he was only required to certify one death when all the others had been certified and why there is no WS from that doctor, and I wonder how the first doctor's WS was accepted as correct after he'd allegedly not seen that the victim was still alive? That's just ONE example. No one has ever suggested that the inquiry was anything more than a mess, but there are MILES of possibilities between a messed up inquiry and a gross conspiracy, NONE of it making Jeremy innocent but MUCH of it being their own fault that questions have been raised.
I think what has happened, like you said, the police enquiry was not up to scratch, it did contain a lot of inaccuracies, it wasn't up to scratch because of many reasons which have been covered, everyone knows this, so it's this that is used, they then go by reports which  may contain errors, contradictions and ambiguities, and those wishing to find evidence of a cover-up will focus on such inconsistencies to bolster their claims. What happens then (not everyone) People who endorse conspiracy theories may be more likely to engage in conspiratorial behaviors themselves, by this I mean spreading rumours, accusing without proof etc.  This isn't aimed at everyone because some caught up in the idea that there is a conspiracy don't realise they are. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jon2 on July 27, 2017, 11:19:AM
I think what has happened, like you said, the police enquiry was not up to scratch, it did contain a lot of inaccuracies, it wasn't up to scratch because of many reasons which have been covered, everyone knows this, so it's this that is used, they then go by reports which  may contain errors, contradictions and ambiguities, and those wishing to find evidence of a cover-up will focus on such inconsistencies to bolster their claims. What happens then (not everyone) People who endorse conspiracy theories may be more likely to engage in conspiratorial behaviors themselves, by this I mean spreading rumours, accusing without proof etc.  This isn't aimed at everyone because some caught up in the idea that there is a conspiracy don't realise they are.
Do you believe there was a conspiracy at Orgreave ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 27, 2017, 11:31:AM
Do you believe there was a conspiracy at Orgreave ?
I don't think it's believing, it happened.

The South Yorkshire police and crime commissioner, Dr Alan Billings, shared her concern. He said: “The former miners and their families deserved to know the truth about what happened that day. I am therefore shocked and dismayed by this decision. The government have marched the Campaign for Truth and Justice to the top of the hill only to march them down again.”

He said he was unconvinced by the reasons given for refusing an investigation: “No one has ever suggested that the events of Orgreave were comparable in every respect to the disaster at Hillsborough. But the former miners and the former mining communities in South Yorkshire deserve an explanation as to what happened on that day, and where Orgreave fits in the wider story of the miners’ strike. I believe the government has shied away from agreeing an inquiry because of those wider issues.”

Andy Burnham, the former shadow home secretary who campaigned for an inquiry into both Orgreave and Hillsborough, said the Independent Police Complaints Commission had found evidence of perjury and perversion of the course of justice, and that new evidence had recently been put forward of orchestrated police violence and manufactured court statements. “This establishment stitch-up is a purely political act.”

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 27, 2017, 11:39:AM
Do you believe there was a conspiracy at Orgreave ?
By the way, I'm not suggesting I'm whiter than white, I'm sometimes as bad as anyone else, but I do think there is a line in which one can cross, to claim what you would like to claim, if that makes sense.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 27, 2017, 11:48:AM

No you misunderstood me . I am not that stupid  >:(

I meant offer an amnesty to anyone who would come forward with information on the case. So if there was an officer who had been there and knew something that would prove his innocence he would retain his pension etc and not be prosecuted .

If someone came forward with information about police corruption, why would he/she be prosecuted and lose thier pension? It's not a crime to report corruption.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 27, 2017, 12:45:PM
Its seems Bamber let out at all costs then, amnesty to all and while we're at it let's hide their identity so they don't face a public backlash.

I would prefer it not to be that way , but whistleblower protection has been offered in other circumstances and the public would be aware of the circumstances and Jeremy would be free.

all that would happen is the old adage " lessons have been learnt and all that rubbish anyway .


Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 27, 2017, 12:52:PM
I would prefer it not to be that way , but whistleblower protection has been offered in other circumstances and the public would be aware of the circumstances and Jeremy would be free.

all that would happen is the old adage " lessons have been learnt and all that rubbish anyway .

Most of the officers involved would be retired, I'm not sure why you think reporting corruption is a crime and that they could be prosecuted or lose their pension?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: JackieD on July 27, 2017, 01:23:PM
You obviously support corrupt actions of the police and the CPS...


obviously
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: JackieD on July 27, 2017, 01:25:PM
Sheila Caffells death scene was staged by some of the most wicked, evil, senior Essex police detectives and police officers - the lot of them are 'scum of the earth'!!!


Some of them were also having fun up on the roof I believe
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 27, 2017, 01:30:PM
It gets worse, because at 8.44am, the police surgeon, Dr Craig, reports Sheila's body 'on the far side of the bed', with the rifle 'laying alongside her body',
What he actually says is,

On the other side of the bedroom and hidden from view from the door by the bed was the body of a young woman lying on her back, wearing a nightdress.  There was what I took to a .22 rifle lying ACROSS her body with the muzzle pointing up towards her head and the right hand lying loosely over the butt.  There was a quantity of DRIED blood which had come from her mouth and what appeared to be an entry wound from her throat.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1187.0;attach=6164
Meaning she had not just been layed in this position, the blood was dry, it wasn't running. Where was the quantity of blood from Sheila, on the floor, if she had layed on the bed after taking the first shot that severed her external jugular vein, the blood would have been on the bed, if she then took the second shot on the bed that would have instantly killed her, then layed on the floor, there would not have been the quantity of blood on the floor because her heart would stop pumping.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 27, 2017, 02:14:PM
If someone came forward with information about police corruption, why would he/she be prosecuted and lose thier pension? It's not a crime to report corruption.

if they knew the truth at the time it would be perverting the course of justice.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 27, 2017, 02:32:PM
if they knew the truth at the time it would be perverting the course of justice.

Jan that is what I was thinking the only way this is likely to happen is if they were guaranteed not to be prosecuted for speaking out.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 27, 2017, 02:47:PM
I said this years ago - but apparently an amnesty was offered behind the scenes during COLP.. There were some disciplinary matters though. However if COLP or their bosses chose not to officially disclose the whole of what was discovered - those officers who coughed-up were arguably absolved (in their own minds). This might be one reason why there is a reluctance to speak out further. To expose EP is effectively to expose COLP and expose the integrity of such enquiries.


that is interesting - I would have thought only the home office would have been to offer amnesty and would  they do that without the agreement of the possible person involved ? i.e Jeremy?

If there were disciplinary actions  why were they not made public ?


Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 27, 2017, 03:10:PM

that is interesting - I would have thought only the home office would have been to offer amnesty and would  they do that without the agreement of the possible person involved ? i.e Jeremy?

If there were disciplinary actions  why were they not made public ?

Well you couldn't have an official amnesty because an official amnesty would by its nature be made public. I'm not sure whether there is any UK precedent for such a process.  It would in effect suggest very serious wrongdoing - publicly.

If you read the thread 'When a force investigates another force' - you will see it is claimed that the police stick by the police. Before an interview is officially recorded, there is likely to be an informal discussion between interviewers and the interviewee.  In other words it's a controlled environment or process. It's not an inquisition and interviewees are not necessarily blindsided.  It's been claimed elsewhere that COLP couldn't understand all of the skullduggery and lengths went to by EP in its execution. Hence the 'amnesty'. 

Perhaps in order for an enquiry to retain some sense of credibility, there has to be at least some disciplinary action.  Sacrificial lambs?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 27, 2017, 03:24:PM
What he actually says is,

On the other side of the bedroom and hidden from view from the door by the bed was the body of a young woman lying on her back, wearing a nightdress.  There was what I took to a .22 rifle lying ACROSS her body with the muzzle pointing up towards her head and the right hand lying loosely over the butt.  There was a quantity of DRIED blood which had come from her mouth and what appeared to be an entry wound from her throat.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1187.0;attach=6164
Meaning she had not just been layed in this position, the blood was dry, it wasn't running. Where was the quantity of blood from Sheila, on the floor, if she had layed on the bed after taking the first shot that severed her external jugular vein, the blood would have been on the bed, if she then took the second shot on the bed that would have instantly killed her, then layed on the floor, there would not have been the quantity of blood on the floor because her heart would stop pumping.

It depends which version of Craig's witness statement you choose to rely upon, as to what he supposedly said! No-one truly knows if he even made one of the witness statements in his name! CPS gave authority for composite statements to be made by a police officer in the names of many witnesses without the named witnesses knowing anything about it! How dishonest and corrupt is that? In one of Craig's statements Sheila was laid on the far side of the bed, hidden from view behind the door with the rifle laying alongside! The officer who accompanied him also wrote this in his pocketbook entry! If Sheila's body had been on the floor at this time (8.44am) her body was in front of the door leading to the box room, not behind it! But with her body on the far side of the bed, she was almost entirely concealed from  behind the main bedroom doorway at the top of the main stairs! She had what appeared to be a wound to her neck, the blood appeared to have dried! Well, if you examine the vertically oriented blood trail from the lower wound you can see that it was dry - that is the dry blood to which Craig was referring to, she hadn't received the second shot beneath the chin by that stage (8.44am)! Furthermore, if her body was on the floor at this time, hidden from view by the door it would suggest that Craig entered the main bedroom via the box room and that he pronounced the two child victims as dead before he pronounced Sheila as being dead! Then after Craig pronounced Sheila dead, cops moved her body onto the bed next to the body of June Bamber who's body had also been on the floor by the door closest to the main stair, and cops moved her body onto the bed, and somebody placed the rifle in-between both bodies in time for Jones and Clark to witness this at about 9.10am! Then cops moved the two bodies back into the bedroom floor and staged their death scenes by 10am, in time for the second SOCO team to photograph them there under the pretense of the crime scene having remained undisturbed throughout!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 27, 2017, 03:24:PM
Jan that is what I was thinking the only way this is likely to happen is if they were guaranteed not to be prosecuted for speaking out.

Some of them may have already 'spoke out' behind the scenes. Therefore they may feel absolved of the responsibility.  In cooperating behind the scenes, they would have divulged info via the 'correct channels'.  If it's decided that their info will not be used or passed on or disclosed - then that decision would have been to some extent taken out of their hands.  I say to some extent - because if there was such an unofficial amnesty - their information and the proposed amnesty would have been like bargaining chips. So they would arguably have had some control in the matter.  In my mind, they are not absolved.  I think that no one person wants to be the person that takes responsibility. This is the problem.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 27, 2017, 03:47:PM
It depends which version of Craig's witness statement you choose to rely upon, as to what he supposedly said! No-one truly knows if he even made one of the witness statements in his name! CPS gave authority for composite statements to be made by a police officer in the names of many witnesses without the named witnesses knowing anything about it! How dishonest and corrupt is that? In one of Craig's statements Sheila was laid on the far side of the bed, hidden from view behind the door with the rifle laying alongside! The officer who accompanied him also wrote this in his pocketbook entry! If Sheila's body had been on the floor at this time (8.44am) her body was in front of the door leading to the box room, not behind it! But with her body on the far side of the bed, she was almost entirely concealed from  behind the main bedroom doorway at the top of the main stairs! She had what appeared to be a wound to her neck, the blood appeared to have dried! Well, if you examine the vertically oriented blood trail from the lower wound you can see that it was dry - that is the dry blood to which Craig was referring to, she hadn't received the second shot beneath the chin by that stage (8.44am)! Furthermore, if her body was on the floor at this time, hidden from view by the door it would suggest that Craig entered the main bedroom via the box room and that he pronounced the two child victims as dead before he pronounced Sheila as being dead! Then after Craig pronounced Sheila dead, cops moved her body onto the bed next to the body of June Bamber who's body had also been on the floor by the door closest to the main stair, and cops moved her body onto the bed, and somebody placed the rifle in-between both bodies in time for Jones and Clark to witness this at about 9.10am! Then cops moved the two bodies back into the bedroom floor and staged their death scenes by 10am, in time for the second SOCO team to photograph them there under the pretense of the crime scene having remained undisturbed throughout!
What I am pointing out is, what dr Craig reports,   You say in your opening statement the police surgeon reports,   So your accepting his report.   

He says he is a registered medical practitioner, engaged in general practice at Maldon.  Where does it state he's a police surgeon?  Or does this add more weight to your story??
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 27, 2017, 03:48:PM
It depends which version of Craig's witness statement you choose to rely upon, as to what he supposedly said! No-one truly knows if he even made one of the witness statements in his name! CPS gave authority for composite statements to be made by a police officer in the names of many witnesses without the named witnesses knowing anything about it! How dishonest and corrupt is that? In one of Craig's statements Sheila was laid on the far side of the bed, hidden from view behind the door with the rifle laying alongside! The officer who accompanied him also wrote this in his pocketbook entry! If Sheila's body had been on the floor at this time (8.44am) her body was in front of the door leading to the box room, not behind it! But with her body on the far side of the bed, she was almost entirely concealed from  behind the main bedroom doorway at the top of the main stairs! She had what appeared to be a wound to her neck, the blood appeared to have dried! Well, if you examine the vertically oriented blood trail from the lower wound you can see that it was dry - that is the dry blood to which Craig was referring to, she hadn't received the second shot beneath the chin by that stage (8.44am)! Furthermore, if her body was on the floor at this time, hidden from view by the door it would suggest that Craig entered the main bedroom via the box room and that he pronounced the two child victims as dead before he pronounced Sheila as being dead! Then after Craig pronounced Sheila dead, cops moved her body onto the bed next to the body of June Bamber who's body had also been on the floor by the door closest to the main stair, and cops moved her body onto the bed, and somebody placed the rifle in-between both bodies in time for Jones and Clark to witness this at about 9.10am! Then cops moved the two bodies back into the bedroom floor and staged their death scenes by 10am, in time for the second SOCO team to photograph them there under the pretense of the crime scene having remained undisturbed throughout!

On this version of Craig's witness statement he confirmed June Bamber dead by the door closest to the main stairs! Sheila's body was hidden from view by the door he was talking about by the bed! He would not have been able to see Sheila's body had it been laying on the bedroom floor at that stage by claiming the door obscured his view! The door could only have obscured his view had Sheila's body been laid on the far side of the bed, which was where Jones and Clark saw it  26 minutes later! I remember coming across this version of Dr Craigs witness statement after Ewen Smith visited him and he told Ewen that Sheila had only been shot once, and that when he certified her as being dead, she had only been shot once, and he had apparently made a mistake in pronouncing her as being dead! He told Ewen Smith that he was not inside the farmhouse when the second shot received by Sheila was discharged! In any event, this statement had a pencil line across it, which was part of the editing and retyping of composite witness statements made by one cop for many different witnesses! I have seen at least three different versions of Dr Craigs witness statement, no doubt there could be many more! He did not make all these witness statements himself!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 27, 2017, 04:00:PM
Some of them may have already 'spoke out' behind the scenes. Therefore they may feel absolved of the responsibility.  In cooperating behind the scenes, they would have divulged info via the 'correct channels'.  If it's decided that their info will not be used or passed on or disclosed - then that decision would have been to some extent taken out of their hands.  I say to some extent - because if there was such an unofficial amnesty - their information and the proposed amnesty would have been like bargaining chips. So they would arguably have had some control in the matter.  In my mind, they are not absolved.  I think that no one person wants to be the person that takes responsibility. This is the problem.

Roch I have wondered if any of the young officers saw what went on and would not dare to speak out to their superior officers but I am wondering if any of them have since confided in others on the QT.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 27, 2017, 04:18:PM
What I am pointing out is, what dr Craig reports,   You say in your opening statement the police surgeon reports,   So your accepting his report.   

He says he is a registered medical practitioner, engaged in general practice at Maldon.  Where does it state he's a police surgeon?  Or does this add more weight to your story??

First things first. According to the contents of this version of Dr Craigs statement, he reports...

Secondly, my reference to him being the police surgeon, comes from the contents of a police radio message log, I believe which was timed at 7.42am, it reads something like, ' Can you contact the police surgeon, and the Coroner's officer regarding two bodies'..

Dr Craig arrived at the scene in the capacity of being the police surgeon who was summoned! The Coroner's officer who was also summoned to the scene, was a PC Wright, who arrived at the scene and viewed Sheila Caffells body at 9.30am, when by his account the rifle had already been removed from the body!  How utterly bizarre that by 7.42am two bodies had only been reported as found and that this state of affairs had endured from as early as 7.35am when DCI Gibbons authorised a similar message to be passed! Two bodies for the whole of that 7 minute duration. Within 3 minutes of the request for the police surgeon and the Coroner's officer to be called out to the incident, a civilian employee by the Christian name 'Linda', was contacting DS Davidson at his home address by telephone, requesting him to come on duty because she told him police were dealing with an incident at whf involving two bodies, a murder, and a suicide! Two bodies then found throughout the entire period 7.35am until 7.45am, a total of 10 minutes without a third, fourth, or fifth body being discovered! But more significantly, the second body found or reported, or spoken about was 'a suicide'!!

Now, switch back to Dr Craigs version of events, the second body he refers to was the body of June Bamber, her death a murder, not a suicide! Then refer to the composite witness statements of the firearm officers, second body found in their accounts was the body of June Bamber, a murder, not a suicide! Then examine every other composite witness statement made by any senior officer, or SOCO, and June Bambers body was the second to be found, a murder not a suicide! All these accounts are dishonest, because cops reported Neville Bambers body first and foremost! Sheila Caffells body second! June Bambers body thirdly! And, the two child victims fourth and fifth by 8.10am! Throughout this period PS Adams was the Commander of the firearms operation at the scene! But, because of an unlikely turn of events, only discovered by Harris, Gibbons and Montgomery upon entering the kitchen at about 8.15am, once the all clear had been shouted from those inside the farmhouse, and the shocking discovery by them upon entering the kitchen that there was only Neville Bambers body present there, everyone was back on alert trying to relocate Sheila's whereabouts! Montgomery assumed control of this part of the operation, he became the Commander from that point onwards! Harris used the kitchen phone to update ACC Peter Simpson regarding how the operation had just gone pearshaped! These three senior officers effectively barrackaded themselves into the kitchen fearing that Sheila might return armed with a loaded weapon and shoot them! It took 15 minutes or so for the firearm officers to relocate her! They found her recollapsed on top of the bed! This was at around 8.30am! The police surgeon, Dr Craig pronounced her as being dead without a physical examination at 8.44am, after he had already pronounced June Bamber as being dead!


Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 27, 2017, 04:28:PM
Not much activity reported after 8.10am, only the police surgeon, Craig verifying the deaths at 8.44am!

The second SOCO team consisting of Cook, Bird, Davidson and Hammersley, all having arrived at the scene by 9.20am, but prevented from taking control of the scene by senior officers who were engaged with performing 'informatives', which lasted at least an hour between 9 am and 10 am! Why were the second SOCO team kept waiting outside the farmhouse for over 40 minutes?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 27, 2017, 04:41:PM
Roch I have wondered if any of the young officers saw what went on and would not dare to speak out to their superior officers but I am wondering if any of them have since confided in others on the QT.

Who knows Susan?  When you consider many of the protagonists are dead - even if a living colleague did play some minor role in aiding a wrongful conviction - why should they take the flak for decisions made by their now dead colleagues?  Also, if they know somebody who took decisions back then and who is still alive, why should relatively small-fry run the risk of getting serious flak - when the attention should be on the still living main-player?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 27, 2017, 05:38:PM
First things first. According to the contents of this version of Dr Craigs statement, he reports...

Secondly, my reference to him being the police surgeon, comes from the contents of a police radio message log, I believe which was timed at 7.42am, it reads something like, ' Can you contact the police surgeon, and the Coroner's officer regarding two bodies'..

Dr Craig arrived at the scene in the capacity of being the police surgeon who was summoned! The Coroner's officer who was also summoned to the scene, was a PC Wright, who arrived at the scene and viewed Sheila Caffells body at 9.30am, when by his account the rifle had already been removed from the body!  How utterly bizarre that by 7.42am two bodies had only been reported as found and that this state of affairs had endured from as early as 7.35am when DCI Gibbons authorised a similar message to be passed! Two bodies for the whole of that 7 minute duration. Within 3 minutes of the request for the police surgeon and the Coroner's officer to be called out to the incident, a civilian employee by the Christian name 'Linda', was contacting DS Davidson at his home address by telephone, requesting him to come on duty because she told him police were dealing with an incident at whf involving two bodies, a murder, and a suicide! Two bodies then found throughout the entire period 7.35am until 7.45am, a total of 10 minutes without a third, fourth, or fifth body being discovered! But more significantly, the second body found or reported, or spoken about was 'a suicide'!!

Now, switch back to Dr Craigs version of events, the second body he refers to was the body of June Bamber, her death a murder, not a suicide! Then refer to the composite witness statements of the firearm officers, second body found in their accounts was the body of June Bamber, a murder, not a suicide! Then examine every other composite witness statement made by any senior officer, or SOCO, and June Bambers body was the second to be found, a murder not a suicide! All these accounts are dishonest, because cops reported Neville Bambers body first and foremost! Sheila Caffells body second! June Bambers body thirdly! And, the two child victims fourth and fifth by 8.10am! Throughout this period PS Adams was the Commander of the firearms operation at the scene! But, because of an unlikely turn of events, only discovered by Harris, Gibbons and Montgomery upon entering the kitchen at about 8.15am, once the all clear had been shouted from those inside the farmhouse, and the shocking discovery by them upon entering the kitchen that there was only Neville Bambers body present there, everyone was back on alert trying to relocate Sheila's whereabouts! Montgomery assumed control of this part of the operation, he became the Commander from that point onwards! Harris used the kitchen phone to update ACC Peter Simpson regarding how the operation had just gone pearshaped! These three senior officers effectively barrackaded themselves into the kitchen fearing that Sheila might return armed with a loaded weapon and shoot them! It took 15 minutes or so for the firearm officers to relocate her! They found her recollapsed on top of the bed! This was at around 8.30am! The police surgeon, Dr Craig pronounced her as being dead without a physical examination at 8.44am, after he had already pronounced June Bamber as being dead!
Ok if we accept Dr Craig being a police surgeon, someone holding such a high position, yet he can't tell if a person is dead or not?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 27, 2017, 06:02:PM
Who knows Susan?  When you consider many of the protagonists are dead - even if a living colleague did play some minor role in aiding a wrongful conviction - why should they take the flak for decisions made by their now dead colleagues?  Also, if they know somebody who took decisions back then and who is still alive, why should relatively small-fry run the risk of getting serious flak - when the attention should be on the still living main-player?

Have you ever seen a statement or testimony from Montgomery?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 27, 2017, 06:10:PM
Ok if we accept Dr Craig being a police surgeon, someone holding such a high position, yet he can't tell if a person is dead or not?

On the version given in his name, he did not perform a physical examination, he pronounced her as being dead simply by a cursory glance, and noted a wound to her neck! That's not very professional by anyones standards! I know that when Ewen Smith had been to see Dr Craig that Ewen was very concerned about Sheila only having a single wound when Craig viewed her body and pronounced her dead without examining her physically! But Ewen told me that Dr Craig was in poor health and he did not think he was fit enough or well enough to attend an Appeal Hearing should the matter be referred to the court of appeal, or words to that effect! Prior to Craig attending the scene, police officers had already declared her dead on two occasions, once in the kitchen at 7.35am, and secondly upstairs on the bed in the main bedroom at around 8.30am! On both of these occasions Sheila had only been shot once! Therefore, it should not come as a surprise that when Craig pronounced her dead, he only noted one bullet wound to her throat at 'that' stage! It is worth noting also that by the time the second team of SOCO took control of the scene in the main bedroom, that rigor mortis had not set in by 10am, because according to Cooks trial testimony he moved Sheila's hand and her right arm so that PC Bird could fingerprint the bloodied fingermarks on Sheila's nightdress! Jeremy would have needed to have killed everyone by around 3am, if he had been the killer, and you would expect rigor mortis to have set in by 10am, 7 hours later, but it hadn't, and no-one comments about an absence of it on any of the bodies! No-one even comments about the body temperature of the victims at the time of discovery, or even at the stage where the police surgeon pronounced death of the victims (8.44am). It takes 10 hours for a corpse to reach the ambient temperate of the place it is found in...

Cops avoided any information which might shed light on the actual time of Sheila Caffells death!

They even introduced the second SOCO team after 10 am, by which stage blood from the second fatal under the chin shot at 9.13am, had coagulated sufficiently to support the claim that she had not just died very recently! But the whole set up was nothing but a hoax! The body of Sheila Caffell was staged, her suicide was faked, not by Jeremy Bamber, but by the cops. Top brass was inside the main bedroom when the shot (PV/20) thundered out of the rifles barrell under Sheila's chin and lodged itself in her brain! Top brass dropped a huge clanger, tampering with the crime scene, staging it, and getting a second SOCO team in to photograph the staged bedroom as though that was how it had been discovered two and a half hours previously!

But, it was all a lie..
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 27, 2017, 06:38:PM
I can also report that although PC Bird claimed to have taken photograph no. 33, which shows a view of Sheila with the barrel of the rifle against the left side of her neck, that her body was left in this position after DC Oakey/DC Henderson (first SOCO team) took photograph no. 26, until the blood had coagulated, and only then at that stage was the position of her body and that gun rephotographed producing an image of dried blood, whereas in no. 26 it was still relatively still fresh looking! After 33 was taken, PC Bird (second SOCO team)  took other photographs, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31 and 32...
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 27, 2017, 06:43:PM
Mike can you liaise with mods to put both those full pictures if you have them in the archive ? There is something else on them I would really like to check
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 27, 2017, 07:19:PM
On the version given in his name, he did not perform a physical examination, he pronounced her as being dead simply by a cursory glance, and noted a wound to her neck! That's not very professional by anyones standards! I know that when Ewen Smith had been to see Dr Craig that Ewen was very concerned about Sheila only having a single wound when Craig viewed her body and pronounced her dead without examining her physically! But Ewen told me that Dr Craig was in poor health and he did not think he was fit enough or well enough to attend an Appeal Hearing should the matter be referred to the court of appeal, or words to that effect! Prior to Craig attending the scene, police officers had already declared her dead on two occasions, once in the kitchen at 7.35am, and secondly upstairs on the bed in the main bedroom at around 8.30am! On both of these occasions Sheila had only been shot once! Therefore, it should not come as a surprise that when Craig pronounced her dead, he only noted one bullet wound to her throat at 'that' stage! It is worth noting also that by the time the second team of SOCO took control of the scene in the main bedroom, that rigor mortis had not set in by 10am, because according to Cooks trial testimony he moved Sheila's hand and her right arm so that PC Bird could fingerprint the bloodied fingermarks on Sheila's nightdress! Jeremy would have needed to have killed everyone by around 3am, if he had been the killer, and you would expect rigor mortis to have set in by 10am, 7 hours later, but it hadn't, and no-one comments about an absence of it on any of the bodies! No-one even comments about the body temperature of the victims at the time of discovery, or even at the stage where the police surgeon pronounced death of the victims (8.44am). It takes 10 hours for a corpse to reach the ambient temperate of the place it is found in...

Cops avoided any information which might shed light on the actual time of Sheila Caffells death!

They even introduced the second SOCO team after 10 am, by which stage blood from the second fatal under the chin shot at 9.13am, had coagulated sufficiently to support the claim that she had not just died very recently! But the whole set up was nothing but a hoax! The body of Sheila Caffell was staged, her suicide was faked, not by Jeremy Bamber, but by the cops. Top brass was inside the main bedroom when the shot (PV/20) thundered out of the rifles barrell under Sheila's chin and lodged itself in her brain! Top brass dropped a huge clanger, tampering with the crime scene, staging it, and getting a second SOCO team in to photograph the staged bedroom as though that was how it had been discovered two and a half hours previously!

But, it was all a lie..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigor_mortis
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 27, 2017, 07:40:PM
Dr Craig attended the scene to formally certify the deaths. In cross-examination at the trial he said the deaths could have occurred at any time during the previous night. The appearance of Sheila Caffell's body suggested to him that the wounds had been inflicted by her own hand. In answer to the judge the witness made it clear this was not an opinion the jury should rely upon as a true indication that the injuries had been self-inflicted.

So here we have another experienced Professional willing to put his career on the line, putting his trust in police officers that he had certified Sheila dead when in fact he hadn't and she was still alive.  I bet he was worried for the rest of his life in case someone squealed. 

Makes you wonder why they never fetched Dr Craig back to cover his blunder when they shot Sheila for the second time?  In fact why fetch another doctor when Craig had already certified her dead, it would have been obvious after the second shot.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jon2 on July 27, 2017, 11:06:PM
I don't think it's believing, it happened.

The South Yorkshire police and crime commissioner, Dr Alan Billings, shared her concern. He said: “The former miners and their families deserved to know the truth about what happened that day. I am therefore shocked and dismayed by this decision. The government have marched the Campaign for Truth and Justice to the top of the hill only to march them down again.”

He said he was unconvinced by the reasons given for refusing an investigation: “No one has ever suggested that the events of Orgreave were comparable in every respect to the disaster at Hillsborough. But the former miners and the former mining communities in South Yorkshire deserve an explanation as to what happened on that day, and where Orgreave fits in the wider story of the miners’ strike. I believe the government has shied away from agreeing an inquiry because of those wider issues.”

Andy Burnham, the former shadow home secretary who campaigned for an inquiry into both Orgreave and Hillsborough, said the Independent Police Complaints Commission had found evidence of perjury and perversion of the course of justice, and that new evidence had recently been put forward of orchestrated police violence and manufactured court statements. “This establishment stitch-up is a purely political act.”

Good read

https://www.thecanary.co/2016/08/24/untold-story-miners-pension-theft-truly-shocking/
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 27, 2017, 11:30:PM
Good read

https://www.thecanary.co/2016/08/24/untold-story-miners-pension-theft-truly-shocking/
Thanks Jon2
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 27, 2017, 11:51:PM
Dr Craig attended the scene to formally certify the deaths. Yes, this was true! In cross-examination at the trial he said the deaths could have occurred at any time during the previous night. Not good enough, considering that he referred to any time prior to his pronouncement of death at 8.44am! The appearance of Sheila Caffell's body suggested to him that the wounds had been inflicted by her own hand.  He was fooled into thinking this, as a result of Sheila's death scene having been staged by senior officers during 'informatives'...In answer to the judge the witness made it clear this was not an opinion the jury should rely upon as a true indication that the injuries had been self-inflicted. In fact, the injuries to Sheila Caffell had not been self inflicted, she was shot on two occasions by someone else!, She was shot once downstairs in the kitchen ( before 7.35am), and once upstairs on the main bedroom floor (at 9.13am), once her body was moved to there from on top of the bed!

So here we have another experienced Professional willing to put his career on the line, putting his trust in police officers that he had certified Sheila dead when in fact he hadn't and she was still alive. This is correct, Sheila was not dead when the police surgeon, Dr Craig pronounced her as being dead at 8.44am.. I bet he was worried for the rest of his life in case someone squealed. He confessed the truth to Ewen Smith, Bambers solicitor at the time, now a CCRC Commisioner!

Makes you wonder why they never fetched Dr Craig back to cover his blunder when they shot Sheila for the second time? But they didn't, they brought a Dr Harris to the scene, who certified Sheila as being dead once the second shot beneath the chin was received by Sheila Caffell! She was definately deceased after receiving the second shot to her neck!! In fact why fetch another doctor when Craig had already certified her dead, Well, it should be obvious that Sheila wasn't dead by 8.44am, they called out Dr Harris who did carry out a physical examination of the body of Sheila Caffell after the infliction of the second shot, and he concluded that Sheila had in fact been dead within the previous 35 minutes, or so!! it would have been obvious after the second shot. Yeah, but not so obvious after the first shot across her neck downstairs in the kitchen, according tp Professor Knight!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 28, 2017, 12:04:AM
I am sitting on new information which establishes Jeremy Bambers innocence beyond doubt!!!

Stay tuned in, because by tomorrow all will be revealed...

Goodnight, everybody..
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 28, 2017, 10:02:AM

38. At 8.10 a.m., Dr Craig attended the scene to formally certify the deaths. In cross-examination at the trial he said the deaths could have occurred at any time during the previous night.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 28, 2017, 10:32:AM
Good read

https://www.thecanary.co/2016/08/24/untold-story-miners-pension-theft-truly-shocking/
Thanks Jon, that's the first I've read on this subject although being a topic I've always discussed with fellow members.  Make no mistake this is very true, with annual statements I have witnessed this first hand and they haven't had to do a thing except cream it of us.  The scheme was easily very supportive for its members without the government interference and the money they owed us.  Blair and Brown are as bad as the Maxwells and Phillip Greene's of their s world.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 28, 2017, 11:00:AM
Thanks Jon, that's the first I've read on this subject although being a topic I've always discussed with fellow members.  Make no mistake this is very true, with annual statements I have witnessed this first hand and they haven't had to do a thing except cream it of us.  The scheme was easily very supportive for its members without the government interference and the money they owed us.  Blair and Brown are as bad as the Maxwells and Phillip Greene's of their s world.
'Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men.' Lord Acton .

'Unlimited power is apt to corrupt the minds of those who posses it.' Pitt the Elder

Haha couldn't decide which quote I preferred..... both just as true today as back in 18th century.  Nothing should ever be taken on face value, we should never totally trust anything ... me 2017
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 28, 2017, 11:15:AM
'Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men.' Lord Acton .

'Unlimited power is apt to corrupt the minds of those who posses it.' Pitt the Elder

Haha couldn't decide which quote I preferred..... both just as true today as back in 18th century.  Nothing should ever be taken on face value, we should never totally trust anything ... me 2017
Ha Ha, love it Maggie, its the new me from now on and I go by this! I believe everything, and I believe nothing. I suspect everyone and I suspect no one. Peter sellars x
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on July 28, 2017, 11:29:AM
Ha Ha, love it Maggie, its the new me from now on and I go by this! I believe everything, and I believe nothing. I suspect everyone and I suspect no one. Peter sellars x
Only way to be. ;)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 28, 2017, 11:41:AM
I am sitting on new information which establishes Jeremy Bambers innocence beyond doubt!!!

Stay tuned in, because by tomorrow all will be revealed...

Goodnight, everybody..

During the COLP investigation they seized a video used for lectures during firearm training that was kept under lock and key in ACC Peter Simpsons office safe! In this video it shows evidence of all the mistakes made during the operation carried out at the time of the whf incident! First body reported was that of Neville Bamber, followed by Sheila Caffell! It confirms the initial shooting incident in the kitchen when Sheila got shot and was presumed killed (Officers Report 1612, refers). Her death described at that stage as a suicide! It supports the running commentary contained in the police radio message logs (7.35am to 8.10am). It describes how her body was left unsupervised whilst all the officers searched the remaining rooms of the farmhouse, downstairs and upstairs, and the discovery of the other three bodies upstairs in the bedrooms...
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 28, 2017, 11:50:AM
During the COLP investigation they seized a video used for lectures during firearm training that was kept under lock and key in ACC Peter Simpsons office safe! In this video it shows evidence of all the mistakes made during the operation carried out at the time of the whf incident! First body reported was that of Neville Bamber, followed by Sheila Caffell! It confirms the initial shooting incident in the kitchen when Sheila got shot and was presumed killed (Officers Report 1612, refers). Her death described at that stage as a suicide! It supports the running commentary contained in the police radio message logs (7.35am to 8.10am). It describes how her body was left unsupervised whilst all the officers searched the remaining rooms of the farmhouse, downstairs and upstairs, and the discovery of the other three bodies upstairs in the bedrooms...

Described in this training video, was how three senior officers, Harris, Gibbons, and Montgomery, left the forward control point in a nearby outbuilding and set off to enter the farmhouse moments before 8.15am via the same route taken by the six man raid team about 45 minutes previously! It describes the shock of discovering the body of Sheila Caffell missing when they arrived in the kitchen, and how the unarmed panic stricken senior officers barrackaded themselves in the kitchen whilst the raid team who were all upstairs tentatively and with stealth made a further search to try and locate her. How all these officers made their way back down the main stairs to the ground floor looking for Sheila! How, Sheila had used the spiral staircase in the corner of the kitchen and had been waiting for the officers upstairs to go down the main stair, until it was clear for her to enter the main bedroom where she collapsed on the bed!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 28, 2017, 11:53:AM
Described in this training video, was how three senior officers, Harris, Gibbons, and Montgomery, left the forward control point in a nearby outbuilding and set off to enter the farmhouse moments before 8.15am via the same route taken by the six man raid team about 45 minutes previously! It describes the shock of discovering the body of Sheila Caffell missing when they arrived in the kitchen, and how the unarmed panic stricken senior officers barrackaded themselves in the kitchen whilst the raid team who were all upstairs tentatively and with stealth made a further search to try and locate her. How all these officers made their way back down the main stairs to the ground floor looking for Sheila! How, Sheila had used the spiral staircase in the corner of the kitchen and had been waiting for the officers upstairs to go down the main stair, until it was clear for her to enter the main bedroom where she collapsed on the bed!

How upon all the ground floor rooms being searched, with the liberating of the three trapped officers in the kitchen, they heard a noise upstairs, and one of the firearm officers went to the spiral staircase and called out Sheila's name....
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 28, 2017, 11:58:AM
I am sitting on new information which establishes Jeremy Bambers innocence beyond doubt!!!

Stay tuned in, because by tomorrow all will be revealed...

Goodnight, everybody..


Well, if it gets to those who can make use of it -and why is it not they who are in possession of this information?- as fast as all the other stuff that established "Jeremy Bamber's innocence beyond doubt!!!) it guarantees he'll have at least another 5 years inside.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 28, 2017, 12:01:PM
The fact that Harris made a telephone call to ACC Peter Simpson which lasted some 15 minutes, is also mentioned in the video footage, and the fact that Harris had used the kitchen telephone after the open 999 line had been cancelled via the control room/operator! Sheila's body was relocated upstairs on top of the bed in the main bedroom, next to the body of her mother! There was no gun in the main bedroom at this stage!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 28, 2017, 12:05:PM

Well, if it gets to those who can make use of it -and why is it not they who are in possession of this information?- as fast as all the other stuff that established "Jeremy Bamber's innocence beyond doubt!!!) it guarantees he'll have at least another 5 years inside.

The COLP Investigators took possession of it during their 1991/1992 enquiry, along with a collection of disturbing photographs that were taken at the scene on that first morning, which COLP did not copy because they proved that cops used the bodies of victims like props in a stage production, prior to the scene being handed over to the second SOCO team (Cook, Bird, Davidson, and Hammersley) after 10am..

The CCRC have a copy of the video...
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 28, 2017, 12:09:PM
The fact that Harris made a telephone call to ACC Peter Simpson which lasted some 15 minutes, is also mentioned in the video footage, and the fact that Harris had used the kitchen telephone after the open 999 line had been cancelled via the control room/operator! Sheila's body was relocated upstairs on top of the bed in the main bedroom, next to the body of her mother! There was no gun in the main bedroom at this stage!

The fact that the police surgeon, Dr Craig, pronounced Sheila as being dead at 8.44am, is referred to in the training video as an 'inexplicable error of judgement'!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 28, 2017, 12:11:PM
The COLP Investigators took possession of it during their 1991/1992 enquiry, along with a collection of disturbing photographs that were taken at the scene on that first morning, which COLP did not copy because they proved that cops used the bodies of victims like props in a stage production, prior to the scene being handed over to the second SOCO team (Cook, Bird, Davidson, and Hammersley) after 10am..

The CCRC have a copy of the video...

Careless of them to let such fall into the 'wrong' hand, wasn't it?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 28, 2017, 12:11:PM
During the COLP investigation they seized a video used for lectures during firearm training that was kept under lock and key in ACC Peter Simpsons office safe! In this video it shows evidence of all the mistakes made during the operation carried out at the time of the whf incident! First body reported was that of Neville Bamber, followed by Sheila Caffell! It confirms the initial shooting incident in the kitchen when Sheila got shot and was presumed killed (Officers Report 1612, refers). Her death described at that stage as a suicide! It supports the running commentary contained in the police radio message logs (7.35am to 8.10am). It describes how her body was left unsupervised whilst all the officers searched the remaining rooms of the farmhouse, downstairs and upstairs, and the discovery of the other three bodies upstairs in the bedrooms...
Its not new, we have had this before about a video?  If true it's seems to replicate word for word what you have been saying, or vice versa your wording is replicating what you suggest the video contains. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 28, 2017, 12:14:PM
Its not new, we have had this before about a video?  If true it's seems to replicate word for word what you have been saying, or vice versa your wording is replicating what you suggest the video contains.

And again, how come SUCH a highly sensitive video gets into the'wrong' hands?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 28, 2017, 12:15:PM
Careless of them to let such fall into the 'wrong' hand, wasn't it?
Yes, strange how these informants leak information to Mike and no one else.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 28, 2017, 12:16:PM
It further mentions how senior officers set about performing 'informatives' around the the body of Sheila Caffell, trying to find a plausible explanation for how they could present her death there in the main bedroom without declaring she had been shot downstairs in the kitchen! The police surgeon was not privy to the earlier shooting, and was convinced she had died there on the bed because by the time he attended the main bedroom scene, a rifle was alongside her body on the bed between the two bodies! The police surgeon believed the rifle was the weapon which had been used to shoot both of the two female victims on the bed! Sheila only had one bullet wound in her throat / neck by that stage!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 28, 2017, 12:37:PM
It further mentions how senior officers set about performing 'informatives' around the the body of Sheila Caffell, trying to find a plausible explanation for how they could present her death there in the main bedroom without declaring she had been shot downstairs in the kitchen! The police surgeon was not privy to the earlier shooting, and was convinced she had died there on the bed because by the time he attended the main bedroom scene, a rifle was alongside her body on the bed between the two bodies! The police surgeon believed the rifle was the weapon which had been used to shoot both of the two female victims on the bed! Sheila only had one bullet wound in her throat / neck by that stage!

Also seized by COLP at the time they took possession of this 'training video', and 'other' photographs, was a training manuscript, with reference to various events contained in the footage, where ACC Simpson would pause the footage at specific points to give a lecture, regarding mistakes that were made, things which could have been done to prevent things having gone wrong, and of course the benefits of having senior officers present at such a crime scene, carrying out 'informatives' for the purpose of tidying up an investigation, so that things which shouldn't have happened but had, never became public knowledge...

The misuse of 'informatives' at whf by senior officers, who staged Sheila Caffells death scene on the bedroom floor, is the sole reason why Bamber is convicted! It has got nothing to do with anything the relatives believed, nothing to do with Julie Mugfords story, or the use of a silenncer! Since, first and foremost, Sheila Caffell was alive downstairs in the kitchen long after the firearm team entered the kitchen and Sheila got shot and was presumed killed! Her death described as a suicide! But, she was not killed during that shooting incident, she died much later on upstairs on the main bedroom floor after cops moved her body from on top of the bed to the floor! She was shot on the second occasion, according to parts of the training manuscript at 9.13am, whilst the rifle from the bed, which in turn had been brought to the bed from an adjoining room window (box room), was placed on her body without anyone having checked to see if it was still loaded with any ammunition, and with the muzzle of the silencer against the underside of her chin, a shot was discharged into her brain which killed her, according to the pathologists Venezis, and Knight! It mentions in the training manuscript that this accident should never have happened, had the weapon being used in this gauging exercise been checked and made safe! Also, that because the rifle was a key exhibit in the shootings it should never have been used as a prop in these gauging exercises! It states in this manuscript, that Sheila's fingers could barely reach the trigger mechanism with the silencer attached, and that the shot which resulted was possibly triggered by the officer who was trying to manipulate her fingers to see if she could reach and activate the trigger herself! Mention is made about what took place after Sheila received this second shot...
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 28, 2017, 12:44:PM
Also seized by COLP at the time they took possession of this 'training video', and 'other' photographs, was a training manuscript, with reference to various events contained in the footage, where ACC Simpson would pause the footage at specific points to give a lecture, regarding mistakes that were made, things which could have been done to prevent things having gone wrong, and of course the benefits of having senior officers present at such a crime scene, carrying out 'informatives' for the purpose of tidying up an investigation, so that things which shouldn't have happened but had, never became public knowledge...

The misuse of 'informatives' at whf by senior officers, who staged Sheila Caffells death scene on the bedroom floor, is the sole reason why Bamber is convicted! It has got nothing to do with anything the relatives believed, nothing to do with Julie Mugfords story, or the use of a silenncer! Since, first and foremost, Sheila Caffell was alive downstairs in the kitchen long after the firearm team entered the kitchen and Sheila got shot and was presumed killed! Her death described as a suicide! But, she was not killed during that shooting incident, she died much later on upstairs on the main bedroom floor after cops moved her body from on top of the bed to the floor! She was shot on the second occasion, according to parts of the training manuscript at 9.13am, whilst the rifle from the bed, which in turn had been brought to the bed from an adjoining room window (box room), was placed on her body without anyone having checked to see if it was still loaded with any ammunition, and with the muzzle of the silencer against the underside of her chin, a shot was discharged into her brain which killed her, according to the pathologists Venezis, and Knight! It mentions in the training manuscript that this accident should never have happened, had the weapon being used in this gauging exercise been checked and made safe! Also, that because the rifle was a key exhibit in the shootings it should never have been used as a prop in these gauging exercises! It states in this manuscript, that Sheila's fingers could barely reach the trigger mechanism with the silencer attached, and that the shot which resulted was possibly triggered by the officer who was trying to manipulate her fingers to see if she could reach and activate the trigger herself! Mention is made about what took place after Sheila received this second shot...

It states in the training manuscript, that as soon as the second shot got activated, blood started pouring from the wound and there was movement of Sheila's head side to side, evidence which suggested that she was still alive, so the rifle was quickly removed from her body and stood by the main bedroom window, whilst Sheila's body was rolled into the recovery position on her right side! One officer placed his fingers against the fresh bullet wound in an attempt to prevent the loss of blood!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 28, 2017, 12:59:PM
Have you ever seen a statement or testimony from Montgomery?

Not that I can recall.  He may have emigrated to either Aus or NZ but I don't know when.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 28, 2017, 01:45:PM
And again, how come SUCH a highly sensitive video gets into the'wrong' hands?
I think it was cyclops and Z last time who provided information that was going to free Bamber overnight.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,6437.0.html

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2178.msg67135.html#msg67135
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 28, 2017, 02:39:PM
The 205 page training manuscript describes how senior officers set out to present Sheila's death upstairs on the main bedroom floor as a suicide she having shot herself once by use of the rifle which was brought from an adjoining room window!

How the rifle was loaded and unchecked or made safe!

The possibility that an officer activated the trigger mechanism whilst manipulating the right hand and fingers of Sheila in the vicinity of the trigger! How shocked everyone who was present were when the rifle discharged the second shot which effectively killed her! How resourceful senior officers were in disguising what had taken place by presenting Sheila's death as an apparent suicide, where she had shot herself not once but twice by use of that rifle! It deals with the question of the second shot going off due to recoil, but with an underlying problem relating to one of the two bullets not having been fired by that rifle (the original PV/20 badly fragmented bullet), which needed to be substituted with a test fired round fired via the anshuzt rifle once the nature of the investigation changed from four murders and a suicide, into five murders!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 28, 2017, 02:48:PM
The 205 page training manuscript describes how senior officers set out to present Sheila's death upstairs on the main bedroom floor as a suicide she having shot herself once by use of the rifle which was brought from an adjoining room window!

How the rifle was loaded and unchecked or made safe!

The possibility that an officer activated the trigger mechanism whilst manipulating the right hand and fingers of Sheila in the vicinity of the trigger! How shocked everyone who was present were when the rifle discharged the second shot which effectively killed her! How resourceful senior officers were in disguising what had taken place by presenting Sheila's death as an apparent suicide, where she had shot herself not once but twice by use of that rifle! It deals with the question of the second shot going off due to recoil, but with an underlying problem relating to one of the two bullets not having been fired by that rifle (the original PV/20 badly fragmented bullet), which needed to be substituted with a test fired round fired via the anshuzt rifle once the nature of the investigation changed from four murders and a suicide, into five murders!

Simpsons manuscript deals with the importance of having senior officers performing 'informatives', designed to iron out problems which might arise in an investigation, the need for restaging the crime scene and the requirement to photograph a crime scene, thereafter, and present the photographic material as ' undisturbed' footage..
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 28, 2017, 02:50:PM
Simpsons manuscript deals with the importance of having senior officers performing 'informatives', designed to iron out problems which might arise in an investigation, the need for restaging the crime scene and the requirement to photograph a crime scene, thereafter, and present the photographic material as ' undisturbed' footage..

It stipulates all the different types of benefit which can be gleaned from adopting and implementing 'informatives' where possible misconduct or negligence may be involved or levelled at an investigating officer!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 28, 2017, 02:52:PM
205 pages of evidence pointing to the guilt of Essex police officers in their dealings during the whf tragedy investigation!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 28, 2017, 02:54:PM
205 pages of evidence pointing to the guilt of Essex police officers in their dealings during the whf tragedy investigation!
Two different SOCO teams, photographing the crime scene at different stages, the former capturing images between 9am and 10am, the latter Photographing the restaged scene after 10am...
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 28, 2017, 02:56:PM
Two different SOCO teams, photographing the crime scene at different stages, the former capturing images between 9am and 10am, the latter Photographing the restaged scene after 10am...

The ploy of trying to disguise the involvement of the first SOCO team in recording the scene (Oakey and Henderson), by getting PC Bird (from the second SOCO team) to draft up a faked , MASTER COPY ALBUM', Containing 358 fewer photographs which had been taken by Oakey and or Henderson...
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 28, 2017, 03:03:PM
Faked records concerning who attended the incident, and who entered the farmhouse prior to 10am, when the second SOCO team took control of the scene! Oakey and Henderson's roles there obliterated in an attempt to bolster up the claim that the second SOCO team had photographed an undisturbed crime scene!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 28, 2017, 03:04:PM
Faked records concerning who attended the incident, and who entered the farmhouse prior to 10am, when the second SOCO team took control of the scene! Oakey and Henderson's roles there obliterated in an attempt to bolster up the claim that the second SOCO team had photographed an undisturbed crime scene!

When they hadn't..
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on July 28, 2017, 04:26:PM
I think it was cyclops and Z last time who provided information that was going to free Bamber overnight.


(http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/harryhausen_cyclops.png)

Was it not Enigma?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 28, 2017, 05:06:PM
if they knew the truth at the time it would be perverting the course of justice.

Surely it would be those who issued the orders who would be culpable, rather than those junior to them who, hypothetically, had been threatened with retribution if they 'squealed'?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 28, 2017, 05:30:PM
Faked records concerning who attended the incident, and who entered the farmhouse prior to 10am, when the second SOCO team took control of the scene! Oakey and Henderson's roles there obliterated in an attempt to bolster up the claim that the second SOCO team had photographed an undisturbed crime scene!

I have been promised a hard copy of the training manuscript seized from ACC Simpsons office safe at the same time as the video footage, which the CCRC have seen, which they say is too disturbing for Jeremy to see!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 28, 2017, 05:32:PM
I have been promised a hard copy of the training manuscript seized from ACC Simpsons office safe at the same time as the video footage, which the CCRC have seen, which they say is too disturbing for Jeremy to see!

The manuscript is 205 pages in length, containing 317 sections..
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 28, 2017, 05:33:PM
Agent 'Z', and 'Enigma', to be precise...
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 28, 2017, 05:47:PM
I have been promised a hard copy of the training manuscript seized from ACC Simpsons office safe at the same time as the video footage, which the CCRC have seen, which they say is too disturbing for Jeremy to see!

And naturally you can only vouch that, to the best of your knowledge, unlike the pictures which were allegedly of June and Sheila, the promised hard copy is 100% genuine. So MANY thefts, eh?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 28, 2017, 05:57:PM
Surely it would be those who issued the orders who would be culpable, rather than those junior to them who, hypothetically, had been threatened with retribution if they 'squealed'?

Well as in other notable cases , officers have never come forward until forced to I am sure there is a reason why they would not . And this might have varied between different forces and the attitude at the top of the chain?



But if you were an officer of the law and you were involved in knowingly withholding or changing evidence I would have thought legally you would still also be responsible . I am not sure that taking orders is an excuse . Was that not mentioned in other areas as well when whistleblowing protection was discussed in government circles ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 28, 2017, 06:04:PM
Well as in other notable cases , officers have never come forward until forced to I am sure there is a reason why they would not . And this might have varied between different forces and the attitude at the top of the chain?



But if you were an officer of the law and you were involved in knowingly withholding or changing evidence I would have thought legally you would still also be responsible . I am not sure that taking orders is an excuse . Was that not mentioned in other areas as well when whistleblowing protection was discussed in government circles ?

Jan that is what I think whether or not you are not directly responsible for any wrong doing having the knowledge and doing nothing about is IMO guilty and you would be prosecuted unless a deal was done and you were not charged (kinda like Julie)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 28, 2017, 06:04:PM
Well as in other notable cases , officers have never come forward until forced to I am sure there is a reason why they would not . And this might have varied between different forces and the attitude at the top of the chain?



But if you were an officer of the law and you were involved in knowingly withholding or changing evidence I would have thought legally you would still also be responsible . I am not sure that taking orders is an excuse . Was that not mentioned in other areas as well when whistleblowing protection was discussed in government circles ?

I don't pretend to be clear on the law, but if operants can be reprimanded for not carrying out orders, it seems to me that they aren't responsible for the orders given.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 28, 2017, 06:22:PM

(http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/harryhausen_cyclops.png)

Was it not Enigma?
Nah, Cyclops and Z like I said.

The evidence I am about to pist will free Jeremy Bamber in bail pending appeal, within days of me pisting up the evidence...

My informant 'Z', and Cyclops have told me that the time has now cone, to either out up, or shut up...

I will pist the evidence
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 28, 2017, 06:26:PM
Nah, Cyclops and Z like I said.

The evidence I am about to pist will free Jeremy Bamber in bail pending appeal, within days of me pisting up the evidence...

My informant 'Z', and Cyclops have told me that the time has now cone, to either out up, or shut up...

I will pist the evidence

Was that spelling a deliberate mistake ? It's a bit early to be on the 🍻
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 28, 2017, 06:30:PM
Was that spelling a deliberate mistake ? It's a bit early to be on the 🍻
No Jan that is how Mike Spelt it.

Look in here,  post one.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,6437.0.html
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 28, 2017, 06:31:PM
Was that spelling a deliberate mistake ? It's a bit early to be on the 🍻

Wasn't it Clouseau speak?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 28, 2017, 07:18:PM
No Jan that is how Mike Spelt it.

Look in here,  post one.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,6437.0.html

I guessed as much .
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 28, 2017, 08:16:PM
Looks like this man studied List  of photographs?

His words, She did not commit suicide but, like the other four victims, was shot to death by someone else.

I'm sure you will be disappointed with my findings, however, the physical evidence I have discussed appears OBVIOUS.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=264.0;attach=20302;image

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 28, 2017, 08:19:PM
If you read this report, I wonder which photos he wasn't allowed to duplicate due to an agreement?

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=264.0;attach=20301;image
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 28, 2017, 08:43:PM
Any chance someone could put this into Statements and Transcripts please?

It's Proff Knights court transcripts.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7008.0.html
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 28, 2017, 09:07:PM
 I really hope then that she did not just commit suicide before the police entered and they moved the body  gun or bible for the photos because if they did and the silencer was never on the gun then it would be an explanation for what he found .

It was  officers themselves who commented that the gun and bible were in a different position in the photos to what they had seen originally .

Which is strange because in Adams first statement he never even mentions going into the house . He said he went back to the station . Then I think if memory serves me right he makes that comment.

Also the officer who heard a noise upstairs said it was another officer in the office .  But that officer seems to say he was by the door and stayed there for quite a while and then only went in storerooms .

It's all very confusing and it is the statements that make it so.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Zoso on July 28, 2017, 11:31:PM
Any chance someone could put this into Statements and Transcripts please?

It's Proff Knights court transcripts.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7008.0.html

Done  :)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 29, 2017, 12:47:AM
Looks like this man studied List  of photographs?

His words, She did not commit suicide but, like the other four victims, was shot to death by someone else.

I'm sure you will be disappointed with my findings, however, the physical evidence I have discussed appears OBVIOUS.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=264.0;attach=20302;image


I'm sure you will be disappointed to hear that Prof McDonnell recanted on his 1992 conclusions.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8025.msg380343.html#msg380343 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8025.msg380343.html#msg380343)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on July 29, 2017, 12:59:AM

I'm sure you will be disappointed to hear that Prof McDonnell recanted on his 1992 conclusions.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8025.msg380343.html#msg380343 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8025.msg380343.html#msg380343)
In other words, nobody could tell whether a poor, vulnerable, mentally-ill young woman had shot herself or someone else had guided her hand whilst the fatal reports blasted out..
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 29, 2017, 07:59:AM

I'm sure you will be disappointed to hear that Prof McDonnell recanted on his 1992 conclusions.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8025.msg380343.html#msg380343 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8025.msg380343.html#msg380343)

As did Vanezis recant his original opinion when he spoke with CAL.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 29, 2017, 08:38:AM
Done  :)
Thanks Zoso
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 29, 2017, 10:25:AM

I'm sure you will be disappointed to hear that Prof McDonnell recanted on his 1992 conclusions.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8025.msg380343.html#msg380343 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8025.msg380343.html#msg380343)

So did Suthurst!!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jon2 on July 29, 2017, 10:27:AM
So did Suthurst!!
Do you have link to this pls ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 29, 2017, 10:32:AM
Do you have link to this pls ?

I don't - sorry. I read it a few years back but can't remember where. He conceded that using photographs wasn't an exact science in this particular instance (because of the angle of the camera etc.). Or words to that effect.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 29, 2017, 11:17:AM

I'm sure you will be disappointed to hear that Prof McDonnell recanted on his 1992 conclusions.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8025.msg380343.html#msg380343 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8025.msg380343.html#msg380343)

Thank you for that . I did not realise that was the case .

Having seen those pictures of things being moved about on the chairs etc in the crime scene photos that seems pretty obvious .
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 29, 2017, 11:20:AM
I wonder what the "normal" procedure would have been for any crime scene about making sure a weapon was safe before or after taking photos.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 29, 2017, 11:33:AM
Looks like this man studied List  of photographs?

His words, She did not commit suicide but, like the other four victims, was shot to death by someone else.

I'm sure you will be disappointed with my findings, however, the physical evidence I have discussed appears OBVIOUS.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=264.0;attach=20302;image

Yes, Professor Herbert Leon MacDonnell, correctly interpreted that Sheila had not committed suicide! He describes her death here as a murder, but he says there is no evidence to suggest that Jeremy Bamber was responsible for any of the murders including his sisters, or words to that effect! Of course, he is absolutely right in saying this! My reservations about what he says regarding Sheila Caffells death being a murder is that in the  circumstances in which she died might not amount to murder! The first shot downstairs in the kitchen occurred during a struggle over the control of a police officers weapon upon him being the first officer entering the kitchen - Sheila is said to have deliberately forced the muzzle of his weapon against her throat, which discharged a shot horizontal in fashion across her throat! An officers Report exists which claims the shooting at that stage be treated as self inflicted! (1612 refers)! On the second occasion, when Sheila's body was moved from the bed to the floor, the second shot arose because of negligence on the part of senior officers who were unbeknown to themselves using a loaded family rifle as part of a gauging exercise during 'informatives' they were practicing with Sheila Caffells body with the anshuzt rifle!

Do these shootings, as described, amount to murder?

I have to say, 'no'...
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 29, 2017, 11:47:AM
Yes, Professor Herbert Leon MacDonnell, correctly interpreted that Sheila had not committed suicide! He describes her death here as a murder, but he says there is no evidence to suggest that Jeremy Bamber was responsible for any of the murders including his sisters, or words to that effect! Of course, he is absolutely right in saying this! My reservations about what he says regarding Sheila Caffells death being a murder is that in the  circumstances in which she died might not amount to murder! The first shot downstairs in the kitchen occurred during a struggle over the control of a police officers weapon upon him being the first officer entering the kitchen - Sheila is said to have deliberately forced the muzzle of his weapon against her throat, which discharged a shot horizontal in fashion across her throat! An officers Report exists which claims the shooting at that stage be treated as self inflicted! (1612 refers)! On the second occasion, when Sheila's body was moved from the bed to the floor, the second shot arose because of negligence on the part of senior officers who were unbeknown to themselves using a loaded family rifle as part of a gauging exercise during 'informatives' they were practicing with Sheila Caffells body with the anshuzt rifle!

Do these shootings, as described, amount to murder?

I have to say, 'no'...

I think under the circumstances, that the shooting of Sheila downstairs in the kitchen, may have been justified in one way or another, so I reluctantly agree that the officer in question did not intend to, or murder Bambers sister! However, at the time of the second shooting of Sheila Caffell upstairs once her body was moved to the bedroom floor, somebody has to be held accountable because that second shot should never have occurred! Cops shouldn't be tampering with a crime scene and exhibits until after SOCO have completed its investigation! Senior Officers are guilty of gross negligence, and a conspiracy to pervert the course of justice, insofar as the second shooting of Sheila Caffell is concerned! I know that junior officers acted under the authority of Simpson, Harris, Gibbons, Clarke, Jones, Cook, and Montgomery, at peril of being castigated and possibly frozen out, in this debackle, but unless they are prepared to come forward and speak out and tell the truth, these junior officers should also be accountable alongside their senior counterparts!

I do know that some of these junior officers did speak out during the COLP investigation, and that they secured themselves 'immunity from prosecution' by revealing all...
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 29, 2017, 11:49:AM
Yes, Professor Herbert Leon MacDonnell, correctly interpreted that Sheila had not committed suicide! He describes her death here as a murder, but he says there is no evidence to suggest that Jeremy Bamber was responsible for any of the murders including his sisters, or words to that effect! Of course, he is absolutely right in saying this! My reservations about what he says regarding Sheila Caffells death being a murder is that in the  circumstances in which she died might not amount to murder! The first shot downstairs in the kitchen occurred during a struggle over the control of a police officers weapon upon him being the first officer entering the kitchen - Sheila is said to have deliberately forced the muzzle of his weapon against her throat, which discharged a shot horizontal in fashion across her throat! An officers Report exists which claims the shooting at that stage be treated as self inflicted! (1612 refers)! On the second occasion, when Sheila's body was moved from the bed to the floor, the second shot arose because of negligence on the part of senior officers who were unbeknown to themselves using a loaded family rifle as part of a gauging exercise during 'informatives' they were practicing with Sheila Caffells body with the anshuzt rifle!

Do these shootings, as described, amount to murder?

I have to say, 'no'...

So after this alleged struggle in the kitchen during which Sheila 'encouraged' the gun, held by the policeman, into her own neck, where he accidentally fired it, did they ALL -each and every one trained in first aid and CPR-  simply allow her to fall at their feet, say "Ooops! Oh dear" and step over her? Did not ONE of their number think to check? Was that check not seconded by another? If the injury had been only the somewhat minor one you'd have us believe, how could they POSSIBLY have believed her dead?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 29, 2017, 11:50:AM
The COLP investigation became part and parcel of the cover up regarding the shooting of Sheila Caffell by the armed cops / senior officers, at Jeremy Bambers expense...
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 29, 2017, 11:59:AM
So after this alleged struggle in the kitchen during which Sheila 'encouraged' the gun, held by the policeman, into her own neck, where he accidentally fired it, did they ALL -each and every one trained in first aid and CPR-  simply allow her to fall at their feet, say "Ooops! Oh dear" and step over her? Did not ONE of their number think to check? Was that check not seconded by another? If the injury had been only the somewhat minor one you'd have us believe, how could they POSSIBLY have believed her dead?

Read the contents of the police radio message logs, for your answer, she was called as being dead by one or more of the firearm officers! Cops reported two bodies present in the kitchen upon entry during a 10 minute period (7.35am, to 7.45am), the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female, a murder, and a suicide! Work it out for yourself, how did cops know a female was dead from as early as 7.35am, and how did the control room know that her death was a suicide by 7.45am?

Cops spent at least 10 minutes in that kitchen with the two bodies, I don't think they were twiddling their thumbs for all that time, do you?

Why are you trying to get me to say something which I cannot possibly know the actual truth about, other than to say that for 10 minutes armed cops were in the kitchen with two bodies, both were described as dead bodies! One a murder, the other a suicide! How did cops arrive at that conclusion? Somebody must have checked the bodies! Otherwise, why call the two deaths when they did? It should be obvious that a cop or cops did check both bodies, and that they were satisfied that both victims were dead, otherwise they would not have called the two deaths of both victims!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 29, 2017, 12:05:PM
Read the contents of the police radio message logs, for your answer, she was called as being dead by one or more of the firearm officers! Cops reported two bodies present in the kitchen upon entry during a 10 minute period (7.35am, to 7.45am), the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female, a murder, and a suicide! Work it out for yourself, how did cops know a female was dead from as early as 7.35am, and how did the control room know that her death was a suicide by 7.45am?

Cops spent at least 10 minutes in that kitchen with the two bodies, I don't think they were twiddling their thumbs for all that time, do you?

Why are you trying to get me to say something which I cannot possibly know the actual truth about, other than to say that for 10 minutes armed cops were in the kitchen with two bodies, both were described as dead bodies! One a murder, the other a suicide! How did cops arrive at that conclusion? Somebody must have checked the bodies! Otherwise, why call the two deaths when they did? It should be obvious that a cop or cops did check both bodies, and that they were satisfied that both victims were dead, otherwise they would not have called the two deaths of both victims!

I think spending around 10 minutes inside the kitchen (7.35am to 7.45am) was sufficient time for cops to convince themselves that both victims were deaceased!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 29, 2017, 12:12:PM
Read the contents of the police radio message logs, for your answer, she was called as being dead by one or more of the firearm officers! Cops reported two bodies present in the kitchen upon entry during a 10 minute period (7.35am, to 7.45am), the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female, a murder, and a suicide! Work it out for yourself, how did cops know a female was dead from as early as 7.35am, and how did the control room know that her death was a suicide by 7.45am?

Cops spent at least 10 minutes in that kitchen with the two bodies, I don't think they were twiddling their thumbs for all that time, do you?

Why are you trying to get me to say something which I cannot possibly know the actual truth about, other than to say that for 10 minutes armed cops were in the kitchen with two bodies, both were described as dead bodies! One a murder, the other a suicide! How did cops arrive at that conclusion? Somebody must have checked the bodies! Otherwise, why call the two deaths when they did? It should be obvious that a cop or cops did check both bodies, and that they were satisfied that both victims were dead, otherwise they would not have called the two deaths of both victims!

Mike, I'm not trying to get you to say anything! Why would I? I know you weren't there. All you can do is say what you THINK may have happened from the way you choose to interpret what you read. All I -and others- can do is deconstruct it in a way which makes it believable to us, ie I fail to see how police could spend 10 minutes -CAN they be that accurate?- with someone they'd shot without doing EVERYTHING in their power to administer first aid. I do NOT believe they were so junior or inexperienced that they'd believe they'd killed someone who had only received a slight wound and how would they account for the fact that blood was still flowing, which, as her heart was still beating, it would have been. She couldn't have held her breath. She didn't know they were going to stay in the kitchen for 10 minutes before she could get up and go upstairs.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 29, 2017, 12:14:PM
Now, what everyone appears to be overlooking here, is the role played by the staff in the control room who were listening in live via the open '999' line linked from the kitchen to the control room by the lady operater! How did 'LINDA' know at 7.45am, when she contacted DS Davidson at his home address, requesting him to come on duty to the office, because police were dealing with an incident at whf, involving two bodies, a murder, and a suicide?

COLP interviewed all the staff who manned the control room that particular morning, 'LINDA' gave her account, and from what I gather, she overheard the exchanges via the telephone link and the actual shooting of Sheila, as described! She overheard and was privy to the verbal exchanges between the raid team in the kitchen and senior officers at the forward control point, and she was present when the occupants of CA07 relayed messages from the scene to the control room, confirming the aforementioned!!

How could she be mistaken about what she overheard, and was receiving information about by one means, or another?

Do you think she made it all up?

Do you think the occupants of CA07 made up what they relayed from the scene to the control room?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 29, 2017, 12:22:PM
Mike, I'm not trying to get you to say anything! Why would I? I know you weren't there. All you can do is say what you THINK may have happened from the way you choose to interpret what you read. All I -and others- can do is deconstruct it in a way which makes it believable to us, ie I fail to see how police could spend 10 minutes -CAN they be that accurate?- with someone they'd shot without doing EVERYTHING in their power to administer first aid. I do NOT believe they were so junior or inexperienced that they'd believe they'd killed someone who had only received a slight wound.

All I can say, based on what I know, is that the cops in the kitchen believed that Sheila had been killed! We have to believe (but you don't) that cops did not leave the kitchen until after 7.45am, because the previous radio messages describing the presence of two bodies in the kitchen are timed at 7.35am, 7.37am, 7.38am, and 7.42am! Two bodies found, the body of one dead male, 'AND' the body of one dead female, followed by 'LINDA'S' reference at 7.45am, to the deaths of the two victims, as a murder, and a suicide!!!

Even (I shit my pants) PS Bews knows two bodies were reported as present in the kitchen because he passed key messages from the scene to the control room! Where did he get this information from? He doesn't say, because he daren't say! He daren't say beccause the blighter knows that if he does say, that the game is up for the cops!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 29, 2017, 12:25:PM
All I can say, based on what I know, is that the cops in the kitchen believed that Sheila had been killed! We have to believe (but you don't) that cops did not leave the kitchen until after 7.45am, because the previous radio messages describing the presence of two bodies in the kitchen are timed at 7.35am, 7.37am, 7.38am, and 7.42am! Two bodies found, the body of one dead male, 'AND' the body of one dead female, followed by 'LINDA'S' reference at 7.45am, to the deaths of the two victims, as a murder, and a suicide!!!

Even (I shit my pants) PS Bews knows two bodies were reported as present in the kitchen because he passed key messages from the scene to the control room! Where did he get this information from? He doesn't say, because he daren't say! He daren't say beccause the blighter knows that if he does say, that the game is up for the cops!

Then, there is the firearms incident log entries...

Who was logging all the messages passed from inside the farm back and forth to the senior officers situated at the forward control point?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 29, 2017, 12:25:PM
Then, there is the firearms incident log entries...

Who was logging all the messages passed from inside the farm back and forth to the senior officers situated at the forward control point?

Who was the log keeper?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 29, 2017, 12:26:PM
Who was the log keeper?

What reference was given to the audio recording of the open '999' line call from the kitchen to the control room?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 29, 2017, 12:27:PM
What we are dealing with here, is 'police and state controlled corruption' at its worst!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 29, 2017, 12:34:PM
I would invite each and everyone of you to examine your conscienes, and read the opening statement of the typed SOCO REPORT made by DI 'Ron' Cook (second SOCO team at the scene) where he outlines in general what had taken place before he and his team took control of the farmhouse from 10am, onward...

Read it, and think about what Cook is saying!!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 29, 2017, 05:57:PM
There was a seige and persons (had been) shot dead!

A person or persons (had been) shot dead - A person had committed suicide!

(Source of information not known).
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 29, 2017, 06:03:PM
Cook and the second SOCO team did not arrive at the scene until 9.20am, and by that stage Sheila had already been shot once downstairs in the kitchen as per the police radio log contents, and once in the main bedroom after her body had been moved to there from the bed! Upon arrival at the scene he was told exactly what had taken place involving the death of Sheila Caffell, yet in this report he claims not to know where the information mentioned came from. The truth of the matter is that he did not want to name anyone involved in the killing of Sheila Caffell!!!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 29, 2017, 06:10:PM
There was a seige and persons (had been) shot dead!

A person or persons (had been) shot dead - A person had committed suicide!

(Source of information not known).


There was a seige and persons (had been) shot dead! Sheila had shot the other four victims...

A person or persons (had been) shot dead - A person had committed suicide! Sheila was shot twice by the police (once in the kitchen, and secondly in the main bedroom), and her death presented as a suicide!

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 29, 2017, 06:16:PM

There was a seige and persons (had been) shot dead! Sheila had shot the other four victims...

A person or persons (had been) shot dead - A person had committed suicide! Sheila was shot twice by the police (once in the kitchen, and secondly in the main bedroom), and her death presented as a suicide!

Whilst ever the matter was being processed through the Coroners Court system, cops didn't have to worry about the ammunition discrepancy. However, once the matter became a Criminal one destined to be taken through the Criminal Justice System, cops had to exchange the police round for a .22 LR Eley round that they arranged to be test fired via the anshuzt rifle, so that on the face of it both bullets (the original PV/19, and the substituted PV/20) had been fired via the anshuzt rifle, albeit, only one of these at the time of Sheila Caffells death, the other test fired around six weeks afterwards...
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 29, 2017, 06:32:PM
Whilst ever the matter was being processed through the Coroners Court system, cops didn't have to worry about the ammunition discrepancy. However, once the matter became a Criminal one destined to be taken through the Criminal Justice System, cops had to exchange the police round for a .22 LR Eley round that they arranged to be test fired via the anshuzt rifle, so that on the face of it both bullets (the original PV/19, and the substituted PV/20) had been fired via the anshuzt rifle, albeit, only one of these at the time of Sheila Caffells death, the other test fired around six weeks afterwards...

What seems almost certain, was that cops had to have the co-operation of Malcolm Fletcher, their ballistics expert, and Peter Venezis the pathologist, in order to carry out the substitution of the original piece of badly fragmented bullet, and replacing it, with a whole test fired round!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 29, 2017, 06:35:PM
What seems almost certain, was that cops had to have the co-operation of Malcolm Fletcher, their ballistics expert, and Peter Venezis the pathologist, in order to carry out the substitution of the original piece of badly fragmented bullet, and replacing it, with a whole test fired round!

The pathologist knows that the original piece of bullet (PV/20)he removed from Sheila Caffells neck during autopsy on afternoon of 7th August 1985, was 'NOT A WHOLE BULLET'! Yet, for over 32 years or there abouts he has remained silent about it!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 29, 2017, 06:55:PM
The fact that the police surgeon, Dr Craig, pronounced Sheila as being dead at 8.44am, is referred to in the training video as an 'inexplicable error of judgement'!

Here's 'Bob' Millers notebook account of the rifle and Sheila Caffells body, after 9.30am:-

' In same room far side of bed, daughter with .22 rifle by her right side. Appears gunshot wounds to neck'...
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 29, 2017, 09:32:PM
Sorry not quite getting your point mike ? Two visits saying same thing although I can't read all notes?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 29, 2017, 10:12:PM
Oh Gawd!  ::)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 29, 2017, 10:21:PM
There was a seige and persons (had been) shot dead!

A person or persons (had been) shot dead - A person had committed suicide!

(Source of information not known).

Presumably, then, as the "source of information not known" this can be neither confirmed nor verified
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 29, 2017, 10:25:PM
Presumably, then, as the "source of information not known" this can be neither confirmed nor verified

It's is in one of the officer  statements on here that he had been called to a siege situation . But of course we don't know who told him that .
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 29, 2017, 10:33:PM
Odd so at 5.45 when there had been NOT a sound and NO movement why was an officer told this. 

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on July 29, 2017, 10:36:PM
Odd so at 5.45 when there had been NOT a sound and NO movement why was an officer told this.
Was it Roch who posted a timeline? Does this slot into it?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 29, 2017, 10:44:PM
Odd so at 5.45 when there had been NOT a sound and NO movement why was an officer told this.

Given that nothing/zero/zilch had occurred, or it would have been mentioned, it sounds as if someone had gone into panic mode.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 29, 2017, 10:44:PM
Odd so at 5.45 when there had been NOT a sound and NO movement why was an officer told this.

Amazing all of this, in view of the contents of police radio messages and actions performed by control room staff who were manning an ' open '999' line link via the telephone in the kitchen to the control room, and all the implications associated with it...
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 29, 2017, 10:49:PM
Cops have lied and deceived, and fabricated an account, which could not possibly be true!

How much longer can people pretend to believe such utter bullshit and garbage?

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 29, 2017, 10:54:PM
Cops have lied and deceived, and fabricated an account, which could not possibly be true!

How much longer can people pretend to believe such utter bullshit and garbage?

It's time for action!

lets put an end to these falsified accounts, to these cop controlled lies, to this state oriented lies!!

Cops killed Sheila Caffell after they entered the kitchen farmhouse and bedroom, after 8.10am..

Sheila Caffell did not die on the main bedrroom floor until precisely 9.13am..
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 29, 2017, 10:57:PM
It's time for action!

lets put an end to these falsified accounts, to these cop controlled lies, to this state oriented lies!!

Cops killed Sheila Caffell after they entered the kitchen farmhouse and bedroom, after 8.10am..

Sheila Caffell did not die on the main bedrroom floor until precisely 9.13am..

This means that Jeremy Bambers convictions, are totally wrong!

He did not kill his sister, and he did not stage his sisters death scene as a suicide on the main bedroom floor - but cops did...
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 29, 2017, 11:00:PM
Given that nothing/zero/zilch had occurred, or it would have been mentioned, it sounds as if someone had gone into panic mode.

Yes ambulances called as well.


And Jeremy begged them to go into the house . Which could have meant the time of death would have been more apparent .

So he seemed more concerned than they did .
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 29, 2017, 11:01:PM
We are dealing with, a corrupted Criminal Justice system, involving corrupted Essex police, and the local CPS, and the local Magistrates court, and Crown Court. The corrupted Court of Appeal, and a corrupt CCRC...
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 29, 2017, 11:04:PM
We are dealing with, a corrupted Criminal Justice system, involving corrupted Essex police, and the local CPS, and the local Magistrates court, and Crown Court. The corrupted Court of Appeal, and a corrupt CCRC...

It's like dealing with those from the 'guilty camp' trying to get the authorities to look at the pros' and cons' in favour of this case being a miscarriage of justice! But a miscarriage of justice this case was, and is...
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 29, 2017, 11:10:PM
Problem is mike you need proof .

 And that has to come from someone who knows making a statement .

If either of the calls from whf could be proved he would be free . The officers involved who never made statements?

 Montgomery ? Why is he so silent ?

If the movement could be proven or anything happening in the farm ?

If you are correct someone knows and all they have to do is write to the home office and ask for amnesty . Then it would not even have to go to court .
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 30, 2017, 01:48:AM
Yes ambulances called as well.


And Jeremy begged them to go into the house . Which could have meant the time of death would have been more apparent .

So he seemed more concerned than they did .

Begged? Where is that recorded?

Ambulances on standby in a siege situation - now why on earth is that odd?

Concerned or just eager?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 30, 2017, 08:20:AM
It's like dealing with those from the 'guilty camp' trying to get the authorities to look at the pros' and cons' in favour of this case being a miscarriage of justice! But a miscarriage of justice this case was, and is...
No Mike, I think that the guilty camp agree with part of your theory, Sheila did not shoot herself, someone else did.  So we have some common ground between us.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 30, 2017, 09:18:AM
Begged? Where is that recorded?

Ambulances on standby in a siege situation - now why on earth is that odd?

Concerned or just eager?

It would not have been odd if the ambulances had been called right at the beginning when Jeremy so calculatingly set up an intricate and extremely clever scene which apparently had every base covered and was based on every officer doing his bidding .
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 30, 2017, 09:33:AM
Yes ambulances called as well.


And Jeremy begged them to go into the house . Which could have meant the time of death would have been more apparent .

So he seemed more concerned than they did .

Surely, if, after all that time they'd spent there, it was deemed, for no obvious reason, it had turned into a siege situation, I'd have thought ambulances, given the number of people in the house, were de rigour.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 30, 2017, 09:39:AM
It would not have been odd if the ambulances had been called right at the beginning when Jeremy so calculatingly set up an intricate and extremely clever scene which apparently had every base covered and was based on every officer doing his bidding .

Well, I guess these things take time. Maybe it took time to get the message across? Bases can only be covered on a personal level. None of us are responsible for the thought processes of others. Police have to be used to people in panic mode and perhaps overstressing danger. It seems that, at the beginning, it wasn't considered to be a siege situation. Despite that nothing untoward appeared to have been witnessed or heard, something -someone?- tipped the balance.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 30, 2017, 10:06:AM
No Mike, I think that the guilty camp agree with part of your theory, Sheila did not shoot herself, someone else did.  So we have some common ground between us.

Yes, Sheila did not physically shoot herself, but I know cops put the first shooting of herself in the kitchen down to her weilding the muzzle of the officers weapon in toward her own neck, and reported her death at that stage as 'a suicide' (she only having been shot once)...

She still only had that one shot when the police surgeon, Dr Craig pronounced her as being dead without a physical examination at 8.44am, and at around 9.10am when DS 'Stan' Jones, and DC 'Mick' Clarke saw Sheila's body on top of the bed, with the rifle on the bed inbetween both bodies, and a bible on Sheila's chest!

At 9.13am, according to the training manuscript kept by ACC Simpson in his office safe, together with 'THE SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM', containing 581 photographs, Sheila received the second fatal shot, unknowingly, and was killed by a shot (PV/19) from the family owned anshuzt rifle which cops had offerred to her body during the performance of 'informatives'. When PI 'Bob' Miller viewed Sheila's body on the far side of the bed after 9.30am, the rifle was at the right side of her body (according to his notebook entry), but how can this possibly have been true if at 9.13am Sheila's body had already been moved from the bed to the bedroom floor? And, if as the 'guilters' believe her body had been on the bedroom floor at all times, undisturbed?

Something is dramatically wrong here with the way different cops are describing where the body of Sheila Caffell was found and where it was at different stages of the proceedings! They can't even agree amongst themselves whether at one time or another, the anshuzt rifle was resting at a first floor box room window, or at the main bedroom window, or on the bed inbetween the bodies of Sheila and June, or by Sheila's right side, or on Sheila's body with its barrel resting against the left side of her neck, or on her body in different positions! They can't agree whether the rifle was off the body, or on the body!Similarly, the cops can't agree whether the bible was on top of Sheila's chest when her body was laid on top of the bed, or whether it was always on the floor by her upper right arm? Cops can't even agree whether her body was found downstairs in the kitchen upon entry as per the contemporaneously recorded police radio message logs, or upstairs on the far side of the bed (as viewed from the vantage point of the main bedroom door at the top of the main stairs), whether her body was on the bed alongside the body of June Bamber, or whether her body was on the main bedroom floor? These descrepancies cannot be put down to basic errors! Something far more sinister has occurred here, and cops have attempted to cover their trail!

But, I am right there in their faces, reconstructing what these vile evil monsters in uniform did and have down, aided and abbetted by their CPS counterparts, and a corrupted Criminal Justice System they all profess to serve!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 30, 2017, 10:14:AM
Yes, Sheila did not physically shoot herself, but I know cops put the first shooting of herself in the kitchen down to her weilding the muzzle of the officers weapon in toward her own neck, and reported her death at that stage as 'a suicide' (she only having been shot once)...

She still only had that one shot when the police surgeon, Dr Craig pronounced her as being dead without a physical examination at 8.44am, and at around 9.10am when DS 'Stan' Jones, and DC 'Mick' Clarke saw Sheila's body on top of the bed, with the rifle on the bed inbetween both bodies, and a bible on Sheila's chest!

At 9.13am, according to the training manuscript kept by ACC Simpson in his office safe, together with 'THE SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM', containing 581 photographs, Sheila received the second fatal shot, unknowingly, and was killed by a shot (PV/19) from the family owned anshuzt rifle which cops had offerred to her body during the performance of 'informatives'. When PI 'Bob' Miller viewed Sheila's body on the far side of the bed after 9.30am, the rifle was at the right side of her body (according to his notebook entry), but how can this possibly have been true if at 9.13am Sheila's body had already been moved from the bed to the bedroom floor? And, if as the 'guilters' believe her body had been on the bedroom floor at all times, undisturbed?

Something is dramatically wrong here with the way different cops are describing where the body of Sheila Caffell was found and where it was at different stages of the proceedings! They can't even agree amongst themselves whether at one time or another, the anshuzt rifle was resting at a first floor box room window, or at the main bedroom window, or on the bed inbetween the bodies of Sheila and June, or by Sheila's right side, or on Sheila's body with its barrel resting against the left side of her neck, or on her body in different positions! They can't agree whether the rifle was off the body, or on the body!Similarly, the cops can't agree whether the bible was on top of Sheila's chest when her body was laid on top of the bed, or whether it was always on the floor by her upper right arm? Cops can't even agree whether her body was found downstairs in the kitchen upon entry as per the contemporaneously recorded police radio message logs, or upstairs on the far side of the bed (as viewed from the vantage point of the main bedroom door at the top of the main stairs), whether her body was on the bed alongside the body of June Bamber, or whether her body was on the main bedroom floor? These descrepancies cannot be put down to basic errors! Something far more sinister has occurred here, and cops have attempted to cover their trail!

But, I am right there in their faces, reconstructing what these vile evil monsters in uniform did and have down, aided and abbetted by their CPS counterparts, and a corrupted Criminal Justice System they all profess to serve!

The contents of the police radio message logs, are accurate! The contents were recorded contemporaneously, with little or no room or no time for cops to get their heads together or to fabricate the events! By 8.10am, there were onloy three bodies upstairs, June Bambers and her two grandchildren! The other two bodies were downstairs in the kitchen! The logs don't lie, but the contents of fabricated witness statements do!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 30, 2017, 10:19:AM
The contents of the police radio logs, are a true account of the messages passed from one cop to another, one place to another, and should be treated with respect, in much the same way a tachograph is treated where a heavy goods vehicle falls under investigation during an accident (the driver of such a viehicle cannot fake the recorded information, involving speed, distance, braking, and time)! Everything supports Jeremy Bamber being in the clear over the killing of his sister and the staging of her body!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 30, 2017, 10:25:AM
The contents of the police radio logs, are a true account of the messages passed from one cop to another, one place to another, and should be treated with respect, in much the same way a tachograph is treated where a heavy goods vehicle falls under investigation during an accident (the driver of such a viehicle cannot fake the recorded information, involving speed, distance, braking, and time)! Everything supports Jeremy Bamber being in the clear over the killing of his sister and the staging of her body!

This is because cops knew Sheila Caffell was alive when they entered the farmhouse, they know she got shot in the kitchen by one of their own officers, they know her body ended up on the bed in the main bedroom, they know she had only been shot just the once by that stage, they know that her body was moved to the bedroom floor from the bed, and they know that she got shot a second time after they had moved her body to the bedroom floor from the bed! They know senior officers staged her death scene on the floor, and they know the crime scene in that main bedroom was stage managed like a theatre production so as to present Sheila Caffells death as a suicide where she supposedly shot herself twice with the family owned anshuzt rifle! But the truth is that Sheila was 'unarmed' on both the occasions she was shot by the cops! The cops themselves must think they are culpable for her death otherwise they would not have sought to cover the matter up like they have!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 30, 2017, 10:27:AM
This is because cops knew Sheila Caffell was alive when they entered the farmhouse, they know she got shot in the kitchen by one of their own officers, they know her body ended up on the bed in the main bedroom, they know she had only been shot just the once by that stage, they know that her body was moved to the bedroom floor from the bed, and they know that she got shot a second time after they had moved her body to the bedroom floor from the bed! They know senior officers staged her death scene on the floor, and they know the crime scene in that main bedroom was stage managed like a theatre production so as to present Sheila Caffells death as a suicide where she supposedly shot herself twice with the family owned anshuzt rifle! But the truth is that Sheila was 'unarmed' on both the occasions she was shot by the cops! The cops themselves must think they are culpable for her death otherwise they would not have sought to cover the matter up like they have!

Jeremy Bamber did not kill his sister, he did not shoot her dead! He did not stage his sisters death scene on the main bedroom floor! I know this with 100% certainty!

And so do the cops, the CPS, and the CCRC!!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 30, 2017, 11:12:AM
Cops didn't have time to fabricate the contents of the contemporaneously recorded police radio message logs! This is what is so significant about their contents! Cops couldn't foresee what was going to happen next after the three bodies were reported found upstairs at 8.10am, with the other two bodies downstairs in the kitchen, from 7.35am, onwards..!

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 30, 2017, 11:31:AM
It would not have been odd if the ambulances had been called right at the beginning when Jeremy so calculatingly set up an intricate and extremely clever scene which apparently had every base covered and was based on every officer doing his bidding .

Yes it would because no one had any idea about what had happened at that point. Jeremy wasn't clever - he got caught. None of the officers did his bidding, they acted on 'information received' which is all they could have done at that point.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 30, 2017, 11:36:AM
Odd so at 5.45 when there had been NOT a sound and NO movement why was an officer told this.

Why is that odd? Interesting that he also indicates that challengers to the house were 'met with no response'.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 30, 2017, 12:27:PM
Yes it would because no one had any idea about what had happened at that point. Jeremy wasn't clever - he got caught. None of the officers did his bidding, they acted on 'information received' which is all they could have done at that point.

Only caught because of the relatives allegedly .

And I thought Jeremy set up everything the timing of the call the guns in the house etc etc so they would discover the bodies at a later time ? So they were doing his bidding were they not ? Waiting outside  ?

I thought that was the whole point of the plan to control the police to discover everything exactly when he wanted them to?

But he never said anyone had been shot ? Or was held hostage ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 30, 2017, 12:56:PM
Only caught because of the relatives allegedly .

And I thought Jeremy set up everything the timing of the call the guns in the house etc etc so they would discover the bodies at a later time ? So they were doing his bidding were they not ? Waiting outside  ?

I thought that was the whole point of the plan to control the police to discover everything exactly when he wanted them to?

But he never said anyone had been shot ? Or was held hostage ?

No, they were acting on information received. Were they supposed to turn up and disregard anything the only witness told them? Storm into WHF half cocked and risk a crazy Sheila not only killing the family, but risking their own officers in the process?

Jeremy worked out his plan and executed it - it's hardly criminal genius because he was caught. Perhaps he should have kept his plan to himself and we wouldn't be discussing it now?

He didn't have to say anyone had been shot - 'crazy and gun' would be enough to proceed with caution.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on July 30, 2017, 01:25:PM
Only caught because of the relatives allegedly .

And I thought Jeremy set up everything the timing of the call the guns in the house etc etc so they would discover the bodies at a later time ? So they were doing his bidding were they not ? Waiting outside  ?

I thought that was the whole point of the plan to control the police to discover everything exactly when he wanted them to?

But he never said anyone had been shot ? Or was held hostage ?

Jan

IMO Jeremy was not clever he did not act the part out as a guilty man would he acted like a silly young man because he knew he was innocent if only he had known.  Julie acted her part out well in Court.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 30, 2017, 02:09:PM
Jan

IMO Jeremy was not clever he did not act the part out as a guilty man would he acted like a silly young man because he knew he was innocent if only he had known.  Julie acted her part out well in Court.

How so? She more or less stood there covering her face protending to cry whenever she was cross examined.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 30, 2017, 02:17:PM
No Mike, I think that the guilty camp agree with part of your theory, Sheila did not shoot herself, someone else did.  So we have some common ground between us.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=264.0;attach=20301;image

Leon Mcconnell agrees with both Mike & guilters. That Sheila was murdered.

The question is, was it Bamber. Or did the police wrestle the rifle off Sheila & then shoot her with it ? 

Must admit I thought the police would have used their own weapons.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 30, 2017, 02:28:PM
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=264.0;attach=20301;image

Leon Mcconnell agrees with both Mike & guilters. That Sheila was murdered.

The question is, was it Bamber. Or did the police wrestle the rifle off Sheila & then shoot her with it ? 

Must admit I thought the police would have used their own weapons.


Did you conveniently ignore the fact that McDonnel had changed his mind ? Source posted only a day or so ago .

Just because a poster does not believe Jeremy is guilty does not mean that they agree with every theory that is put forward .

And it's about time that you accept that it is in fact the inconsistency in police statements that have actually thrown the whole case into disarray .
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 30, 2017, 02:41:PM

Did you conveniently ignore the fact that McDonnel had changed his mind ? Source posted only a day or so ago .

Adam in a nutshell.

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 30, 2017, 02:46:PM

Did you conveniently ignore the fact that McDonnel had changed his mind ? Source posted only a day or so ago .

Just because a poster does not believe Jeremy is guilty does not mean that they agree with every theory that is put forward .

And it's about time that you accept that it is in fact the inconsistency in police statements that have actually thrown the whole case into disarray .

So Leon Mcconnell doesn't believe the rifle was too long for Sheila. I am just going by the statement on this forum.

It is also in Wilkes's book that he says Sheila was murdered.

But I am sure you are going to provide the source that he changed his mind.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 30, 2017, 02:48:PM
So Leon Mcconnell doesn't believe the rifle was too long for Sheila. I am just going by the statement on this forum.

It is also in Wilkes's book that he says Sheila was murdered.

But I am sure you are going to provide the source that he changed his mind.


It was only posted here a couple of days ago? Is your memory that of a goldfish ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 30, 2017, 02:58:PM
BEcause I am so kind to you Adam



Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 30, 2017, 03:02:PM

It was only posted here a couple of days ago? Is your memory that of a goldfish ?

Don't be abusive. Or I'll have to report you again.

I don't read every post. No one does.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 30, 2017, 03:04:PM
BEcause I am so kind to you Adam

He said Sheila was murdered because the rifle with the silencer was too long for her.

Is he saying the police took the silencer off ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 30, 2017, 03:08:PM
He said Sheila was murdered because the rifle with the silencer was too long for her.

Is he saying the police took the silencer off ?


He was assuming the silencer was on there . If it was not then of course the rifle was not too long.

So if the silencer evidence is not secure the whole scenario of her not being able to shoot herself does not apply.

Carry on with your reporting me if you want to . I won't report you for telling me to step up or step out I am sure it was said in the heat of the moment .
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 30, 2017, 03:27:PM

He was assuming the silencer was on there . If it was not then of course the rifle was not too long.

So if the silencer evidence is not secure the whole scenario of her not being able to shoot herself does not apply.

Carry on with your reporting me if you want to . I won't report you for telling me to step up or step out I am sure it was said in the heat of the moment .

The evidence is the silencer was on the rifle.

But agree if it wasn't, Sheila could have shot herself.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on July 30, 2017, 03:32:PM
The evidence is the silencer was on the rifle.

But agree if it wasn't, Sheila could have shot herself.

Forgetting things again?

https://streamable.com/f1vb6 (https://streamable.com/f1vb6)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 30, 2017, 03:36:PM
Forgetting things again?

https://streamable.com/f1vb6 (https://streamable.com/f1vb6)
. Thank you David


I must admit the blood evidence itself is extremely confusing , even one of the experts said it could have been animal blood and I think these days rhe moderator would never have been accepted as evidence because of the way it was found and handled .


Also there are very good reasons why forensic labs are now independent of the police l
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 30, 2017, 03:46:PM
Forgetting things again?

https://streamable.com/f1vb6 (https://streamable.com/f1vb6)

What's that got to do with Mccdonnell ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 30, 2017, 03:49:PM
What's that got to do with Mccdonnell ?

No that was my post , this is about whether the silencer was on the gun
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 30, 2017, 06:01:PM
Surely, if, after all that time they'd spent there, it was deemed, for no obvious reason, it had turned into a siege situation, I'd have thought ambulances, given the number of people in the house, were de rigour.

Ambulances were requested once the '999' open line call from the scene to the operator was patched through to the control room! Up until 5.47am, the phone inside the farmhouse kitchen was 'off the hook'! At that time,however, it became mysteriously 'engaged', and the operator patched the call through to the control room at 6.05am...

Ambulances requested, Sheila admitted she had shot and possibly killed the other victims during that call!!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 30, 2017, 06:08:PM
The evidence is the silencer was on the rifle.

But agree if it wasn't, Sheila could have shot herself.

Hang on a minute!

First of all, Sheila did not shoot herself! Secondly, Jeremy Bamber did not shoot her! Thirdly, as demonstrated during the 'Birdwell Armoury' experiments, Sheila could have shot herself technically with the silencer fitted to the end of the anshuzt rifles barrel, it was not too long so as to exclude several different ways of her shooting herself with the silencer fixed!

The key issue, was not whether she could have shot herself with the silencer fitted, but rather 'who took the silencer off'?

Cops took the silencer off when Sheila's death scene was staged during 'informatives', then later that same morning, DS 'Stan' Jones returned to the farmhouse to seize it ('SBJ/1'), its documented that he did...

On that very same occasion, 'Stan' Jones seized or took three other exhibits, bearing his identyfying marks, 'SBJ/2', 'SBJ/3', and 'SBJ/4'...
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 30, 2017, 06:10:PM
Ambulances were requested once the '999' open line call from the scene to the operator was patched through to the control room! Up until 5.47am, the phone inside the farmhouse kitchen was 'off the hook'! At that time,however, it became mysteriously 'engaged', and the operator patched the call through to the control room at 6.05am...

Ambulances requested, Sheila admitted she had shot and possibly killed the other victims during that call!!

Oooh! So now, after all these years, SUDDENLY we have Sheila  speaking!! Actually IN CONVERSATION!!! TELLING someone that "she had shot and possibly killed the other victims". Was she told -and by WHOM- not to worry? To go and make herself a cup of tea whilst she was waiting?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 30, 2017, 06:16:PM
Oooh! So now, after all these years, SUDDENLY we have Sheila  speaking!! Actually IN CONVERSATION!!! TELLING someone that "she had shot and possibly killed the other victims". Was she told -and by WHOM- not to worry? To go and make herself a cup of tea whilst she was waiting?

A 999 call to the operator was switched to the control room by way of the '999' open line system, read the facts before you try to be sarcastic! Its all documented...
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 30, 2017, 06:17:PM
A 999 call to the operator was switched to the control room by way of the '999' open line system, read the facts before you try to be sarcastic! Its all documented...

Some of the guilters choose to deliberately ignore the documented facts!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 30, 2017, 06:20:PM
At 3.42am, the phone in the kitchen at the scene was 'off the hook'! It remained in that state, until 5.47am, when it mysteriously became 'engaged'! At 6.05am, the operator 'switched the call via the open 999 system to the control room'...

Nothing could be any clearer!

Ambulances were summoned to the scene!

Why else would Sheila make a '999' call to the operator at 5.47am?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 30, 2017, 06:24:PM
The prosecution of Jeremy Bamber as the killer of his sister is 'fraudulent'!!!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 30, 2017, 06:32:PM
A 999 call to the operator was switched to the control room by way of the '999' open line system, read the facts before you try to be sarcastic! Its all documented...

I'm waiting with bated breath to read a WS in which it's said that Sheila Caffell told them in her own words that she'd shot and killed her entire family. I don't imagine I'm the only one.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 30, 2017, 06:33:PM
At 3.42am, the phone in the kitchen at the scene was 'off the hook'! It remained in that state, until 5.47am, when it mysteriously became 'engaged'! At 6.05am, the operator 'switched the call via the open 999 system to the control room'...

Nothing could be any clearer!

Ambulances were summoned to the scene!

Why else would Sheila make a '999' call to the operator at 5.47am?

She didn't.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 30, 2017, 06:35:PM
Some of the guilters choose to deliberately ignore the documented facts!

No we don't because if that were a fact which is documented and in the public domain, we wouldn't be sitting here arguing the toss.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 30, 2017, 06:36:PM
At 3.42am, the phone in the kitchen at the scene was 'off the hook'! It remained in that state, until 5.47am, when it mysteriously became 'engaged'! At 6.05am, the operator 'switched the call via the open 999 system to the control room'...

Nothing could be any clearer!

Ambulances were summoned to the scene!

Why else would Sheila make a '999' call to the operator at 5.47am?
Why would she call an ambulance when everyone was dead, esp if you had killed everyone?  The ambulance was called by someone who didn't know if there was wounded or dead or what inside the house.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 30, 2017, 06:38:PM
The prosecution of Jeremy Bamber as the killer of his sister is 'fraudulent'!!!

For this not to be true, you would have to accept that the contradictions with the body count downstairs (2) and upstairs (3) in accordance with the contemporaneously recorded police message logs were somehow mistakenly recorded, that bullet PV/20 was never a whole bullet and that the ballistic expert made a mistake in calling a badly fragmented bullet a whole one, and that WPC Jeapes and PC Brown were mistaken in seeing a rifle at the first floor box room window! Cops were mistaken in reporting Sheila's death downstairs in the kitchen as a suicide! Mistaken in calling her death 'a suicide' in second position in the sequence of the discovery of the five bodies, her body being found third in the grand sequence of the events! Cops didnn't stage Sheila Caffells death scene on the bedroom floor! There was never 358 photographs deliberately withheld! Cops did not falsify the photographic records! On and on, a catelog of discrepancies, all put down to basic mistakes! Nobody turning lights on and off inside the farmhouse! Nobody opening and closing curtains at windows! Nobody inside the farmhouse engaged in a conversation with firearm officers! No silhoetted figure at the bedroom window which caused PS Bews to shit in his britches! No boy on the bed with only a single shot! No rifle on the body at various stages prior to 10am! There wwere no informatives where senior officers staged Sheila Caffells death scene on the bedroom floor! There wasn't two separate SOCO teams taking photographs and video footage in the main bedroom at different stages of investigation! There was only one silencer and nobody tampered with its exhibit reference, with it being contaminated with blood and paint, and nobody deliberately scratched the kitchen aga! On and on, an endless list of discrepancies and contradictions, all simple mistakes, according to the guilty camp!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 30, 2017, 06:39:PM
A 999 call to the operator was switched to the control room by way of the '999' open line system, read the facts before you try to be sarcastic! Its all documented...

EVEN were that true, there's no documentation saying an alleged 999 call was made by Sheila Caffell who admitted to having shot and killed her family, and would they please send ambulances.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 30, 2017, 06:45:PM
She didn't.

You don't know that!

Somebody made that call, because the state of the telephone changed at that time, from previously being 'off the hook' (3.42am, onwards, to 'becoming engaged' at 5.47am, a call which at 6.05am was patched through to the control room by the female operator using the '999' open line system, an eavesdrop which lasted until 7.47am, and which enabled staff in the control room to overhear the shooting incident in the kitchen, and the so called 'suicide' of Sheila at and by 7.45am, which enabled 'LINDA' to contact DS Davidson at his home address requesting him to come on duty to the office, because police were dealing with an incident at whf, involving two bodies, a murder, and 'a suicide' - then the '999' open line link got terminated two minutes later after only two bodies had been located and identified (Neville Bamber, and Sheila Caffell)...
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 30, 2017, 06:53:PM
No we don't because if that were a fact which is documented and in the public domain, we wouldn't be sitting here arguing the toss.

It is documented in the public domain that the phone in the kitchen was 'off the hook' from 3.42am, onward! It is in the public domain, that at 5.47am, the phone became mysteriously 'engaged'! It is in the public domain that at 6.05am, the operator patched the call in question through to the control room via the '999' open line system! Which other call did the operator patch through to the control room using the '999' open line system? Are you suggesting it was another different call? The 'off the hook' kitchen phone, became mysteriously 'engaged', at 5.47am, and it was this call which the operator patched through to the control room at 6.05am! There was no other call from the farmhouse after the 5.47am, one, other than at around 8.15am, when DCI Harris used the kitchen phone to call ACC 'Peter' Simpson to update him regarding the whereabouts of Sheila Caffell whose body had gone AWOL from the kitchen scene after 8.10am!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 30, 2017, 06:56:PM
No cop is that clever that when they falsify evidence no-one can reconstruct what they have done, or what they did!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 30, 2017, 06:58:PM
It is documented in the public domain that the phone in the kitchen was 'off the hook' from 3.42am, onward! It is in the public domain, that at 5.47am, the phone became mysteriously 'engaged'! It is in the public domain that at 6.05am, the operator patched the call in question through to the control room via the '999' open line system! Which other call did the operator patch through to the control room using the '999' open line system? Are you suggesting it was another different call? The 'off the hook' kitchen phone, became mysteriously 'engaged', at 5.47am, and it was this call which the operator patched through to the control room at 6.05am! There was no other call from the farmhouse after the 5.47am, one, other than at around 8.15am, when DCI Harris used the kitchen phone to call ACC 'Peter' Simpson to update him regarding the whereabouts of Sheila Caffell whose body had gone AWOL from the kitchen scene after 8.10am!

There are enough alleged calls flying around as it is, ALL with varying times and lengths of call and from various people -still it helps to confuse, if nothing else- why would anyone wish to add to their number?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 30, 2017, 06:59:PM
No cop is that clever that when they falsify evidence no-one can reconstruct what they have done, or what they did!

It is absolutely crystal clear that cops framed Jeremy Bamber for doing something they themselves were responsible for doing involving the killing of Bambers sister, and the stage managing of his sisters death scene on the main bedroom floor, using a rifle which was found leaning against a box room window, that only fired one of the two bullets which wounded, and killed her!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 30, 2017, 07:01:PM
There are enough alleged calls flying around as it is, ALL with varying times and lengths of call and from various people -still it helps to confuse, if nothing else- why would anyone wish to add to their number?

How did cops know that one of the two ambulances was needed urgently at the farmhouse, and the other ambulance to remain on standby in nearby Pages Lane?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 30, 2017, 07:02:PM
How did cops know that one of the two ambulances was needed urgently at the farmhouse, and the other ambulance to remain on standby in nearby Pages Lane?

They knew this because Sheila told them that she had shot at least one of the others!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 30, 2017, 07:02:PM
How did cops know that one of the two ambulances was needed urgently at the farmhouse, and the other ambulance to remain on standby in nearby Pages Lane?
Was the ambulances used Mike?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 30, 2017, 07:06:PM
Was the ambulances used Mike?

That's the funny thing, because at 7am when both ambulances and their crews arrived at the scene neither of both ambulances were sent directly to the farmhouse! Not until after 8.30am, when Sheila's body which had gone AWOL from the kitchen after 8.10am, was relocated in the main bedroom on the bed! Ambulance crews entered the farmhouse after 8.30am, and slightly before the police surgeon, Dr Craig at 8.44am, and this was why Craig did not bother to carry out a physical examination of Sheila's body! The ambulance crew had presumeably already declared her dead beforehand!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 30, 2017, 07:08:PM
How did cops know that one of the two ambulances was needed urgently at the farmhouse, and the other ambulance to remain on standby in nearby Pages Lane?

Ambulances along with fire arms teams doesn't require much thinking about. Fairly routine, I'd think.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest7363 on July 30, 2017, 07:08:PM
That's the funny thing, because at 7am when both ambulances and their crews arrived at the scene neither of both ambulances were sent directly to the farmhouse! Not until after 8.30am, when Sheila's body which had gone AWOL from the kitchen after 8.10am, was relocated in the main bedroom on the bed! Ambulance crews entered the farmhouse after 8.30am, and slightly before the police surgeon, Dr Craig at 8.44am, and this was why Craig did not bother to carry out a physical examination of Sheila's body! The ambulance crew had presumeably already declared her dead beforehand!
Thats the first I've heard of this, is there any statements to view and was the ambulance crew used at trial?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 30, 2017, 07:08:PM
That's the funny thing, because at 7am when both ambulances and their crews arrived at the scene neither of both ambulances were sent directly to the farmhouse! Not until after 8.30am, when Sheila's body which had gone AWOL from the kitchen after 8.10am, was relocated in the main bedroom on the bed! Ambulance crews entered the farmhouse after 8.30am, and slightly before the police surgeon, Dr Craig at 8.44am, and this was why Craig did not bother to carry out a physical examination of Sheila's body! The ambulance crew had presumeably already declared her dead beforehand!

Ambulance crews were made to wait an hour and a half after arriving at the scene, before they were allowed to tend to the victims...
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 30, 2017, 07:19:PM
Ambulance crews were made to wait an hour and a half after arriving at the scene, before they were allowed to tend to the victims...

There wasn't much they could do for dead bodies.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 30, 2017, 07:20:PM
The head of the regional ambulance service also attended the incident...
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 30, 2017, 07:22:PM
There wasn't much they could do for dead bodies.

Sheila wasn't dead, and did not die until 9.13am, as a result of being shot with the anshuzt rifle from the box room window after 8.10am...

Considering that Sheila got shot in the kitchen by 7.35am, and that by 8.10am there were only three bodies upstairs by that stage, it should be obvious that although cops thought she had been killed in the kitchen upon entry, as per timed police radio log references which were passed and recorded contemporaneously, 7.35am, 7.37am, 7.38am, 7.42am and 7.45am, her body ended up dead on the bedroom floor in possession of a rifle which at 7.15am, WPC Jeapes and a PC Brown had seen resting against what turns out to be, a first floor box room window, situated between the main bedroom, and a bedroom in which the two child victims were brutally shot to death in overkill style!

The shooting incident in the kitchen, therefore, of Sheila by a cop, is pivotal evidence which serves to establish Jeremy Bambers total innocence in these killings, in particular, the killing of his own sister! Since, because cops shot his sister in the kitchen, a shooting which is covered by an 'OFFICERS REPORT' bearing the reference 1612, how did her body end up on the main bedroom floor, in time for PC Bird (second SOCO team) to photograph her body there after 10pm, in possession of the aforementioned rifle which two and three quarter hours earlier (7.15am) had been resting against a window in another upstairs room of the farmhouse?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 30, 2017, 07:23:PM
The head of the regional ambulance service also attended the incident...

Who held this position, on the morning of the tragedy?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on July 30, 2017, 07:27:PM
Sheila wasn't dead, and did not die until 9.13am, as a result of being shot with the anshuzt rifle from the box room window after 8.10am...

So you keep saying. I guess, now you've accepted Sheila didn't shoot herself, if you're going to remain determined that Jeremy didn't do it, it provides an excellent opportunity to kill two birds with one stone.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 30, 2017, 07:30:PM
Ambulance crews were made to wait an hour and a half after arriving at the scene, before they were allowed to tend to the victims...

Ambulance crews were deployed to the scene and given information which had been passed to the operator by way of a '999' call, by Sheila Caffell! She is understood to have told the operator that she had just shot her dad. Upon arrival at the incident the ambulance crews were prevented from going directly to the farmhouse because of safety issues! At 7am, firearm officers did not know the whereabouts inside the farmhouse of Sheila, nor did they know if she still had control of a loaded gun! It was not until about 7.15am when cops finally persuaded her to show the weapon she had been using at a window, before they would let the ambulance crew come to tend to the wounded and the dying!

They tricked Sheila into showing the anshuzt rifle at a first floor box room window!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 30, 2017, 07:35:PM
Ambulance crews were deployed to the scene and given information which had been passed to the operator by way of a '999' call, by Sheila Caffell! She is understood to have told the operator that she had just shot her dad. Upon arrival at the incident the ambulance crews were prevented from going directly to the farmhouse because of safety issues! At 7am, firearm officers did not know the whereabouts inside the farmhouse of Sheila, nor did they know if she still had control of a loaded gun! It was not until about 7.15am when cops finally persuaded her to show the weapon she had been using at a window, before they would let the ambulance crew come to tend to the wounded and the dying!

They tricked Sheila into showing the anshuzt rifle at a first floor box room window!

Sheila made her way downstairs to the region of the kitchen, the scene where she had shot her dad to death! She intended to go through the kitchen to unlock the farmhouse door to allow the ambulance crew access, but she didn't get that far, before the firearm officers sledge hammered in the door, and proceeded to enter the kitchen! It was at this stage that there was a struggle over the possession of the officers weapon!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 30, 2017, 07:38:PM
Sheila made her way downstairs to the region of the kitchen, the scene where she had shot her dad to death! She intended to go through the kitchen to unlock the farmhouse door to allow the ambulance crew access, but she didn't get that far, before the firearm officers sledge hammered in the door, and proceeded to enter the kitchen! It was at this stage that there was a struggle over the possession of the officers weapon!

WPC Jeapes and PC Brown both saw the rifle which Sheila had placed at the box room window! They saw the six man raid team making its approach to try and bring the seige to a conclusion at 7.30am, after a three and a half hour stand off...
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jan on July 30, 2017, 07:55:PM
There was a link to ambulance crew statements on here but it does not work . Did you have copies ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 30, 2017, 08:11:PM
There was a link to ambulance crew statements on here but it does not work . Did you have copies ?

Yes, but not to hand...
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 07, 2017, 04:32:PM
I'd like to revisit the issue of the blood on Sheila's arm. I think these are runs from drips of blood and not the result of injuries to her arm. That would suggest that she was standing up or at least sitting up when she was shot and that her right arm was directly below her chin at the time of one of the shots so that the blood dripped onto her arm. That would probably be the first shot.

If she shot herself and then fell backwards, it's not much of a mystery, but if Jeremy shot her, he had to make sure that he positioned the rifle correctly, and I'm not sure how he would have done that. Did he ask her to stand or sit still whilst he shoved a rifle up against her neck? Perhaps he did just that and she had her hand on the rifle trying to push it away, which is how the blood dripped onto her arm.

I do think that the evidence shows that she was shot where she was found - I see no evidence that she shot herself once and then walked around.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on September 07, 2017, 04:38:PM
I'd like to revisit the issue of the blood on Sheila's arm. I think these are runs from drips of blood and not the result of injuries to her arm. That would suggest that she was standing up or at least sitting up when she was shot and that her right arm was directly below her chin at the time of one of the shots so that the blood dripped onto her arm. That would probably be the first shot.

If she shot herself and then fell backwards, it's not much of a mystery, but if Jeremy shot her, he had to make sure that he positioned the rifle correctly, and I'm not sure how he would have done that. Did he ask her to stand or sit still whilst he shoved a rifle up against her neck? Perhaps he did just that and she had her hand on the rifle trying to push it away, which is how the blood dripped onto her arm.

I do think that the evidence shows that she was shot where she was found - I see no evidence that she shot herself once and then walked around.

How do you think Sheila committed the massacre ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on September 07, 2017, 04:40:PM
I'd like to revisit the issue of the blood on Sheila's arm. I think these are runs from drips of blood and not the result of injuries to her arm. That would suggest that she was standing up or at least sitting up when she was shot and that her right arm was directly below her chin at the time of one of the shots so that the blood dripped onto her arm. That would probably be the first shot.

If she shot herself and then fell backwards, it's not much of a mystery, but if Jeremy shot her, he had to make sure that he positioned the rifle correctly, and I'm not sure how he would have done that. Did he ask her to stand or sit still whilst he shoved a rifle up against her neck? Perhaps he did just that and she had her hand on the rifle trying to push it away, which is how the blood dripped onto her arm.

I do think that the evidence shows that she was shot where she was found - I see no evidence that she shot herself once and then walked around.

Something like this. (NSFL)
https://gfycat.com/GloriousHeavenlyBuck (https://gfycat.com/GloriousHeavenlyBuck)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 07, 2017, 04:52:PM
Something like this. (NSFL)
https://gfycat.com/GloriousHeavenlyBuck (https://gfycat.com/GloriousHeavenlyBuck)

Possibly, although there wasn't much time for blood to drip onto that poor chap's arm. However, the first shot didn't kill her, and it might not have been enough for her to fall over, so there would have been time. It's interesting where the gun ended up - pretty much where the gun ended up on Sheila.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 07, 2017, 05:00:PM
How do you think Sheila committed the massacre ?

If she did it, I can only make some guesses here. Apparently, there had been some discussion earlier on about the twins which was a bit negative, so it's possible that she woke in the night and was convinced she had to kill them. In that case, I think she shot them first. They were asleep so clearly there hadn't been any commotion to wake them up. Neville maybe heard the shots and got up to investigate, but it's not clear to me if she shot him at that time. It's also possible that she was only threatening to shoot the twins and that's when Neville went to downstairs to call Jeremy. Anyway, he went downstairs and that's when she could have shot the twins and June, and then went downstairs to confront Neville.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 07, 2017, 05:03:PM
I'd like to revisit the issue of the blood on Sheila's arm. I think these are runs from drips of blood and not the result of injuries to her arm. That would suggest that she was standing up or at least sitting up when she was shot and that her right arm was directly below her chin at the time of one of the shots so that the blood dripped onto her arm. That would probably be the first shot.

If she shot herself and then fell backwards, it's not much of a mystery, but if Jeremy shot her, he had to make sure that he positioned the rifle correctly, and I'm not sure how he would have done that. Did he ask her to stand or sit still whilst he shoved a rifle up against her neck? Perhaps he did just that and she had her hand on the rifle trying to push it away, which is how the blood dripped onto her arm.

I do think that the evidence shows that she was shot where she was found - I see no evidence that she shot herself once and then walked around.

Are you referring to lower arm (i.e. wrist)?  It's difficult to discern correctly from images on the forum - but the trails actually fade away from the darker spots.  The trails are 'dappled' in appearance and become more faint away from the spots.  There are also occurrences of broken skin in the vicinity of the darker spots.   Personally I would have to disagree that the wrist spots are formed by a coagulation of runs deposited on her arm from the neck wound. 

There are also other occurrences of broken skin further up the arm, including cuts upon her upper arm that are completely distinct from any nearby trail or smear.  In addition various cuts, upon her hand and grazing / nicks on another part of the same hand.   
   
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 07, 2017, 05:09:PM
Are you referring to lower arm (i.e. wrist)?  It's difficult to discern correctly from images on the forum - but the trails actually fade away from the darker spots.  The trails are 'dappled' in appearance and become more faint away from the spots.  There are also occurrences of broken skin in the vicinity of the darker spots.   Personally I would have to disagree that the wrist spots are formed by a coagulation of runs deposited on her arm from the neck wound. 

There are also other occurrences of broken skin further up the arm and upon her hand.  The are also cuts on her upper arm that are completely distinct from any nearby trail or smear - these being in addition to cuts, upon her hand and grazing / nicks on another part of the same hand.   
 

I can see several trails of blood on her lower arm and her wrist, and I can see the darker spots. It's possible that the darker spots are where the blood fell and then trickled away round her arm, becoming fainter. It's also possible that the dark spots are where the blood finally stopped running and pooled.

I can't see any cuts on her upper arm, only more trails of blood. The blood on her nightdress puzzles me though - she could not have bled that way if she was lying down when she was shot.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 07, 2017, 05:18:PM
I can see several trails of blood on her lower arm and her wrist, and I can see the darker spots. It's possible that the darker spots are where the blood fell and then trickled away round her arm, becoming fainter. It's also possible that the dark spots are where the blood finally stopped running and pooled.

I can't see any cuts on her upper arm, only more trails of blood. The blood on her nightdress puzzles me though - she could not have bled that way if she was lying down when she was shot.

Yes the definition and clarity of the images on the forum is poor.  If we run with your first option - in my mind - this requires Sheila to manoeuvre her own arm back and forth underneath her neck wound, in order for the blood to fall in successive spots evenly along her wrist.

If you try doing this yourself, so that your arm doesn't rotate, it feels very awkward.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 07, 2017, 05:24:PM
Yes the definition and clarity of the images on the forum is poor.  If we run with your first option - in my mind - this requires Sheila to manoeuvre her own arm back and forth, underneath her neck wound, in order for the blood to fall in successive spots, evenly along her wrist.

If you try doing this yourself, so that your arm doesn't rotate, it feels very awkward.

Yes, I do see what you mean, but the problem remains whether it was Sheila or Jeremy who pulled the trigger. She might not have been moving her arm, she might have been moving her head forwards and backwards for the blood to drip in those positions, or she might have been trying to push the gun away from her after the first shot.

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on September 07, 2017, 05:25:PM
If she did it, I can only make some guesses here. Apparently, there had been some discussion earlier on about the twins which was a bit negative, so it's possible that she woke in the night and was convinced she had to kill them. In that case, I think she shot them first. They were asleep so clearly there hadn't been any commotion to wake them up. Neville maybe heard the shots and got up to investigate, but it's not clear to me if she shot him at that time. It's also possible that she was only threatening to shoot the twins and that's when Neville went to downstairs to call Jeremy. Anyway, he went downstairs and that's when she could have shot the twins and June, and then went downstairs to confront Neville.

Obviously Sheila shooting the twins & waking Nevill is ruled out. As Nevill wouldn't have then phoned Bamber due to time constraints.

However if there was a big commotion beforehand, the twins or June would have woken.

Sheila couldn't have shot the twins & June & then gone downstairs to confront Nevill as he was shot 4 times upstairs. Nevill would have overpowered her in the kitchen as Sheila would have no bullets & he would still be fully fit.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 07, 2017, 05:35:PM
Obviously Sheila shooting the twins & waking Nevill is ruled out. As Nevill wouldn't have then phoned Bamber due to time constraints.

However if there was a big commotion beforehand, the twins or June would have woken.

Sheila couldn't have shot the twins & June & then gone downstairs to confront Nevill as he was shot 4 times upstairs. Nevill would have overpowered her then as Sheila would have no bullets & he would still be fully fit.

Why would Sheila shooting the twins first and waking Neville be ruled out because of time constraints?

If Neville was shot four times upstairs, what was June Bamber doing? Did she stay in bed? There are a lot of blood stains on the bed. Wouldn't the twins and Sheila have woken up?

Do you think that either Jeremy or Sheila confronted Neville first in the kitchen? How then did he get shot upstairs? Also, I would have thought that someone upstairs would have heard the commotion. After all, it's been said there was quite a fight in there as well as the gun being fired.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on September 07, 2017, 05:50:PM
Why would Sheila shooting the twins first and waking Neville be ruled out because of time constraints?

If Neville was shot four times upstairs, what was June Bamber doing? Did she stay in bed? There are a lot of blood stains on the bed. Wouldn't the twins and Sheila have woken up?

Do you think that either Jeremy or Sheila confronted Neville first in the kitchen? How then did he get shot upstairs? Also, I would have thought that someone upstairs would have heard the commotion. After all, it's been said there was quite a fight in there as well as the gun being fired.

So sheila shoots the twins & Nevill decides to ring Bamber. A bit late to be ringing anyone. Apart from an ambulance after Nevill gets the rifle off Sheila.

The evidence is Nevill was shot 4 times in the bedroom. June was shot five times in bed. Bamber shot them both after entering the bedroom. Why would Sheila & the twins wake from behind closed doors ? Bamber used a silencer & June was shot while asleep.

Nevill got shot upstairs & then ran downstairs. Being bare footed & in pyjamas shows he was in bed when Bamber entered the bedroom. This would be around 2am.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on September 07, 2017, 06:02:PM
Are you referring to lower arm (i.e. wrist)?  It's difficult to discern correctly from images on the forum - but the trails actually fade away from the darker spots.  The trails are 'dappled' in appearance and become more faint away from the spots.  There are also occurrences of broken skin in the vicinity of the darker spots.   Personally I would have to disagree that the wrist spots are formed by a coagulation of runs deposited on her arm from the neck wound. 

There are also other occurrences of broken skin further up the arm, including cuts upon her upper arm that are completely distinct from any nearby trail or smear.  In addition various cuts, upon her hand and grazing / nicks on another part of the same hand.   
 

Roch I don't know why you suddenly decided that those runs of blood are from cuts when its rather obvious by looking the photos one can deduce otherwise.

If you look at the photo of Nevills arm. That is what Sheila's wounds should look like (if they are). But they don't.

Its believed these wounds to Nevills arm is caused by the barrel of the gun. And if so that is certainly not with the smooth ended silencer. However I find it very coincidental for there to be five cuts in the alignment and size of a female hand.

(https://s22.postimg.org/j9ouy9pup/Marks_on_arm_02_Copy.jpg)

“METROPOLITAN POLICE. R v Bamber Court Bundle (7B) Photograph Album (III) Original Case Photographs”

Amongst the album marked “Original Case Photographs” was a post mortem photograph of Ralph Neville Bamber’s right arm, missing from the album made available to the Jury, Trial Judge and Appellate Courts as well as the Defence.

The photo of Ralph Neville Bamber’s arm does indeed sustain the observation and witness statement of Professor Vanezis in that “there was a collection of bruises, 3 of which had an approximate linear configuration…” and the observation uplifted from the post mortem report in the Court of Appeal’s Approved Judgement in para 42: “linear type bruising to the right forearm,”
but what was not made available to the Court of Appeal was the very post mortem photograph itself since what was available was only the blue photographic albums marked “Jury Bundle” and NOT the album marked “original case photographs.”

Even to a medically untrained eye the photograph of the right arm of Ralph Neville Bamber shows finger nail marks consistent with the assailant/attacker having gripped the deceased and having lacerated the skin with finger nail marks.

What is of some considerable concern and forms part of the basis of the request to the Commission to refer this matter back to the Court of Appeal is that Professor Vanezis made NO mention of these vitally important marks in his post mortem report.

The finger nail lacerations are consistent with a person with finger nails between 5mm-6mm long since the lacerated indentations into the skin are measured."

CRIMINAL CASES REVIEW COMMISSION ON BEHALF OF THE APPLICANT
CASE NO: 00162/2004

(https://s22.postimg.org/qe6o7ax41/Marks_on_arm_02.jpg)


Knight's Forensic Pathology Third Edition page 141
Fingernail abrasions
These are important because of their frequency in assaults -especially child abuse, sexual attacks and strangulation. Often associated with focal bruises, fingernail abrasions are most often seen on the neck, the face, the upper arms and the forearms. They may be linear scratches if the fingers are
dragged down the skin, or short, straight or curved marks when the skin is gripped in a static fashion. As women tend to have longer, sharper fingernails than men, they are naturally
more often associated with causing such abrasions. A victim resisting a sexual or other attack may rake her nails down her assailant's face, causing linear, parallel scratches that may be several millimetres wide and placed a centimetre or two apart. The expected pattern may be fragmentary,
however, as is often seen on the neck when a victim of either manual or ligature strangulation attempts to tear away the attacking fingers or cord. These marks are usually vertical, as opposed to the more random marks that may be inflicted by the nails of the assailant in manual strangulation.
The upper arms are a frequent site for gripping and restraint, both in adult assaults and child abuse. Bruising is most common, but fingernail marks may be superimposed. Static fingernail abrasions may be straight or curved, often about half to one centimetre long. The direction of curvature must be interpreted with care if one wishes to decide which way the hand was held at the time of infliction.

Although it is natural to assume that the concavity of the mark indicates the orientation of the fingertip, experiments by Shapiro et al. (1962) have shown that this is often not the case. Because the skin is put under lateral tension when it is indented by the nails, it may distort, so that when the
tension is released the elasticity of the skin causes it to return to its original position, carrying the nail mark with it. The curve may then reverse to form either a straight line or a convexity. The shape of the free edge of the fingernail also affects the mark, as pointed nails are more likely than
those with straight edges to give these paradoxical results. Once again, the pathologist has to be wary of incorrect interpretation when, for instance, deciding if nail marks on a neck were made by hands approaching from the front or passing around the back of the neck. However, ~ersonal
experiments with the Shapiro et al. contention have shown that it by no means always applies.



Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 07, 2017, 06:03:PM
So sheila shoots the twins & Nevill decides to ring Bamber. A bit late to be ringing anyone. Apart from an ambulance after Nevill gets the rifle off Sheila.

The evidence is Nevill was shot 4 times in the bedroom. June was shot five times in bed. Bamber shot them both after entering the bedroom. Why would Sheila & the twins wake from behind closed doors ? Bamber used a silencer & June was shot while asleep.

Nevill got shot upstairs & then ran downstairs. Being bare footed & in pyjamas shows he was in bed when Bamber entered the bedroom. This would be around 2am.

Sheila could still have shot the twins first. Of course it would have been too late to save the twins, but it wouldn't have been too late to save himself and June.  Is it not possible that Nevill did go downstairs, rang Jeremy, and then went back upstairs where he was shot? The shots in the bedroom did not kill him, so perhaps he went back downstairs to get away from Sheila.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 07, 2017, 06:14:PM
What puzzles me is why Nevill ended up in the kitchen. If he was shot upstairs by Jeremy, how did he manage to escape to the kitchen in the first place? Surely Jeremy would have just shot him again - upstairs.

If June was shot in bed, was she shot before Nevill escaped to the kitchen? She must have been, she wouldn't have just stayed in bed whilst her husband was being pursued.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on September 07, 2017, 06:26:PM
Sheila could still have shot the twins first. Of course it would have been too late to save the twins, but it wouldn't have been too late to save himself and June.  Is it not possible that Nevill did go downstairs, rang Jeremy, and then went back upstairs where he was shot? The shots in the bedroom did not kill him, so perhaps he went back downstairs to get away from Sheila.

That is what has been suggested.

A fully fit Nevill decided not to confront a drowsy & weak Sheila who was holding a low powered weapon.

Eventually Nevill spent several minutes phoning & waiting for Bamber to answer. At the very moment Bamber answers, Nevill somehow hears upstairs rifle shots & only says 8/11 words to Bamber before putting the phone down & taking it back off the hook.

Nevill then ran upatairs, totally unprotected bare footed in pyjamas. Gets within inches of Sheila who shoots him twice in the face & twice in the body. There is no physical confrontation upstairs. Instead Nevill runs straight back downstairs. Followed by Sheila.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 07, 2017, 06:31:PM
That is what has been suggested.

A fully fit Nevill decided not to confront a drowsy & weak Sheila who was holding a low powered weapon.

Eventually Nevill spent several minutes phoning & waiting for Bamber to answer. At the very moment Bamber answers, Nevill somehow hears upstairs rifle shots & only says 8/11 words to Bamber before putting the phone down & taking it back off the hook.

Nevill then ran upatairs, totally unprotected bare footed in pyjamas. Gets within inches of Sheila who shoots him twice in the face & twice in the body. There is no physical confrontation upstairs. Instead Nevill runs straight back downstairs. Followed by Sheila.

That is certainly possible, and it would explain why there was no blood on the phone, and the abrupt way Nevill went silent - according to Jeremy anyway. If Sheila had already gone berserk with the gun, surely he would have called 999. Sheila might not have shot the twins, she might have been threatening to. I don't know though - wouldn't Nevill have tried to persuade her to hand over the gun?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on September 07, 2017, 06:31:PM
What puzzles me is why Nevill ended up in the kitchen. If he was shot upstairs by Jeremy, how did he manage to escape to the kitchen in the first place? Surely Jeremy would have just shot him again - upstairs.

If June was shot in bed, was she shot before Nevill escaped to the kitchen? She must have been, she wouldn't have just stayed in bed whilst her husband was being pursued.

Nevill shot both June & Nevill with the same rifle load. There is nothing June could do after 5 bed shots.

Nevill was shot 4 times before getting past Bamber to the kitchen.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on September 07, 2017, 06:33:PM
That is certainly possible, and it would explain why there was no blood on the phone, and the abrupt way Nevill went silent - according to Jeremy anyway. If Sheila had already gone berserk with the gun, surely he would have called 999. Sheila might not have shot the twins, she might have been threatening to. I don't know though - wouldn't Nevill have tried to persuade her to hand over the gun?

Of course the above very unlikely scenario means Nevill did not call Chelmsford police 16/26 minutes after calling Bamber. But I'm sure you believe that is just properganda anyway.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 07, 2017, 06:39:PM
Nevill shot both June & Nevill with the same rifle load. There is nothing June could do after 5 bed shots.

Nevill was shot 4 times before getting past Bamber to the kitchen.

She got out of bed though - her blood was found in other parts of the bedroom, and she was found by the door. It's not clear to me if she was shot near the door or just collapsed and died there. So in your scenario, Nevill and June were shot at pretty much the same time. Was Nevill in bed at the time or was he standing up?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 07, 2017, 06:41:PM
Of course the above very unlikely scenario means Nevill did not call Chelmsford police 16/26 minutes after calling Bamber. But I'm sure you believe that is just properganda anyway.

I've never been convinced that Nevill called Chelmsford police. I think that PC West would have remembered two separate phone calls that night, and he had no reason to lie at that time. There are discrepancies with the time logged on the police reports, but I think that was a mistake.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on September 07, 2017, 06:44:PM
I've never been convinced that Nevill called Chelmsford police. I think that PC West would have remembered two separate phone calls that night, and he had no reason to lie at that time. There are discrepancies with the time logged on the police reports, but I think that was a mistake.

There are only two or here who believe Nevill called the police.

Although the OS/CT & Bamber are still promoting it.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 07, 2017, 06:57:PM
Back to Sheila's wounds, and the position of her body. I gather that it was the upper wound which killed her, which I find strange as there appears to be smudges of blood around it, as if she had clutched at her throat.

I did notice that the door behind her into the box room was open in the photos, so it's possible that she went into her parents' bedroom that way. That would suggest that she'd been in the twins' room prior to that as I think there was a door to the box room leading from their room. That doesn't really explain much, but I've always wondered why she was shot in that particular place, whether Jeremy shot her or she shot herself. It's odd though - wouldn't Jeremy have preferred to shoot her in a place which wasn't visible from the front of the house - in her own room, for example?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on September 07, 2017, 07:23:PM
Back to Sheila's wounds, and the position of her body. I gather that it was the upper wound which killed her, which I find strange as there appears to be smudges of blood around it, as if she had clutched at her throat.

I did notice that the door behind her into the box room was open in the photos, so it's possible that she went into her parents' bedroom that way. That would suggest that she'd been in the twins' room prior to that as I think there was a door to the box room leading from their room. That doesn't really explain much, but I've always wondered why she was shot in that particular place, whether Jeremy shot her or she shot herself. It's odd though - wouldn't Jeremy have preferred to shoot her in a place which wasn't visible from the front of the house - in her own room, for example?

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7805.msg369805.html#msg369805 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7805.msg369805.html#msg369805)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on September 07, 2017, 07:25:PM
Back to Sheila's wounds, and the position of her body. I gather that it was the upper wound which killed her, which I find strange as there appears to be smudges of blood around it, as if she had clutched at her throat.

I did notice that the door behind her into the box room was open in the photos, so it's possible that she went into her parents' bedroom that way. That would suggest that she'd been in the twins' room prior to that as I think there was a door to the box room leading from their room. That doesn't really explain much, but I've always wondered why she was shot in that particular place, whether Jeremy shot her or she shot herself. It's odd though - wouldn't Jeremy have preferred to shoot her in a place which wasn't visible from the front of the house - in her own room, for example?

Welcome back Kaldin.

You are correct that it was the upper wound which was said to be instantly fatal.

You might have already noticed (ignore this if you have), but many of the documents and photographs etc are now in their own archive section. I don't think that was the case when you used to post. It's much easier to find things now.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/board,3.0.html
 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/board,3.0.html)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 07, 2017, 07:31:PM
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7805.msg369805.html#msg369805 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7805.msg369805.html#msg369805)

I see - good thread. So either the end of the rifle smeared the blood, or Sheila's head was forward at the time which caused a smudge.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 07, 2017, 09:55:PM
I've never been convinced that Nevill called Chelmsford police. I think that PC West would have remembered two separate phone calls that night, and he had no reason to lie at that time. There are discrepancies with the time logged on the police reports, but I think that was a mistake.

Not sure if you've already read this attachment - it's at least food for thought, among the many other opinions people have on this aspect.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8401.0.html
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 07, 2017, 10:36:PM
Roch I don't know why you suddenly decided that those runs of blood are from cuts when its rather obvious by looking the photos one can deduce otherwise.

If you look at the photo of Nevills arm. That is what Sheila's wounds should look like (if they are). But they don't.

Its believed these wounds to Nevills arm is caused by the barrel of the gun. And if so that is certainly not with the smooth ended silencer. However I find it very coincidental for there to be five cuts in the alignment and size of a female hand.

(https://s22.postimg.org/j9ouy9pup/Marks_on_arm_02_Copy.jpg)

“METROPOLITAN POLICE. R v Bamber Court Bundle (7B) Photograph Album (III) Original Case Photographs”

Amongst the album marked “Original Case Photographs” was a post mortem photograph of Ralph Neville Bamber’s right arm, missing from the album made available to the Jury, Trial Judge and Appellate Courts as well as the Defence.

The photo of Ralph Neville Bamber’s arm does indeed sustain the observation and witness statement of Professor Vanezis in that “there was a collection of bruises, 3 of which had an approximate linear configuration…” and the observation uplifted from the post mortem report in the Court of Appeal’s Approved Judgement in para 42: “linear type bruising to the right forearm,”
but what was not made available to the Court of Appeal was the very post mortem photograph itself since what was available was only the blue photographic albums marked “Jury Bundle” and NOT the album marked “original case photographs.”

Even to a medically untrained eye the photograph of the right arm of Ralph Neville Bamber shows finger nail marks consistent with the assailant/attacker having gripped the deceased and having lacerated the skin with finger nail marks.

What is of some considerable concern and forms part of the basis of the request to the Commission to refer this matter back to the Court of Appeal is that Professor Vanezis made NO mention of these vitally important marks in his post mortem report.

The finger nail lacerations are consistent with a person with finger nails between 5mm-6mm long since the lacerated indentations into the skin are measured."

CRIMINAL CASES REVIEW COMMISSION ON BEHALF OF THE APPLICANT
CASE NO: 00162/2004

(https://s22.postimg.org/qe6o7ax41/Marks_on_arm_02.jpg)


Knight's Forensic Pathology Third Edition page 141
Fingernail abrasions
These are important because of their frequency in assaults -especially child abuse, sexual attacks and strangulation. Often associated with focal bruises, fingernail abrasions are most often seen on the neck, the face, the upper arms and the forearms. They may be linear scratches if the fingers are
dragged down the skin, or short, straight or curved marks when the skin is gripped in a static fashion. As women tend to have longer, sharper fingernails than men, they are naturally
more often associated with causing such abrasions. A victim resisting a sexual or other attack may rake her nails down her assailant's face, causing linear, parallel scratches that may be several millimetres wide and placed a centimetre or two apart. The expected pattern may be fragmentary,
however, as is often seen on the neck when a victim of either manual or ligature strangulation attempts to tear away the attacking fingers or cord. These marks are usually vertical, as opposed to the more random marks that may be inflicted by the nails of the assailant in manual strangulation.
The upper arms are a frequent site for gripping and restraint, both in adult assaults and child abuse. Bruising is most common, but fingernail marks may be superimposed. Static fingernail abrasions may be straight or curved, often about half to one centimetre long. The direction of curvature must be interpreted with care if one wishes to decide which way the hand was held at the time of infliction.

Although it is natural to assume that the concavity of the mark indicates the orientation of the fingertip, experiments by Shapiro et al. (1962) have shown that this is often not the case. Because the skin is put under lateral tension when it is indented by the nails, it may distort, so that when the
tension is released the elasticity of the skin causes it to return to its original position, carrying the nail mark with it. The curve may then reverse to form either a straight line or a convexity. The shape of the free edge of the fingernail also affects the mark, as pointed nails are more likely than
those with straight edges to give these paradoxical results. Once again, the pathologist has to be wary of incorrect interpretation when, for instance, deciding if nail marks on a neck were made by hands approaching from the front or passing around the back of the neck. However, ~ersonal
experiments with the Shapiro et al. contention have shown that it by no means always applies.


I've tried to do one of your clever images David.  A crude attempt.  Forefinger; middle finger; ring finger; little finger (faintest). 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on September 07, 2017, 10:41:PM
But where's the concomitant damage to Sheila's fingernails? Until you tie Sheila into contact with her parents your diagrams prove absolutely nothing.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 07, 2017, 10:57:PM
I've tried to do one of your clever images David.  A crude attempt.  Forefinger; middle finger; ring finger; little finger (faintest).

Or you could reverse it I suppose. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on September 08, 2017, 12:06:AM
I've tried to do one of your clever images David.  A crude attempt.  Forefinger; middle finger; ring finger; little finger (faintest).

Surely blood would be running down from such injuries, not up?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on September 08, 2017, 01:15:AM
But where's the concomitant damage to Sheila's fingernails? Until you tie Sheila into contact with her parents your diagrams prove absolutely nothing.

It was revealed by gossip circulating in the Frog and Beans.  ::)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 08, 2017, 08:26:AM
Welcome back Kaldin.

You are correct that it was the upper wound which was said to be instantly fatal.

You might have already noticed (ignore this if you have), but many of the documents and photographs etc are now in their own archive section. I don't think that was the case when you used to post. It's much easier to find things now.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/board,3.0.html
 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/board,3.0.html)

Hello Hartley - thank you.  ^-^ Sorry I missed your post yesterday. I'll have a look around - there are so many details to this case that I can't remember some of it. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 08, 2017, 08:31:AM
Surely blood would be running down from such injuries, not up?

It has.  The wounds have nothing to do with Sheila's (alleged) final resting position. They were incurred earlier, during a mortal struggle with an opponent.  The streams of blood are actually thin and would have quickly began to dry (I have described them as appearing 'dappled' in higher-def images). 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 08, 2017, 08:35:AM
The problem I have with the area of the darker spots is because there's less blood supply in the forearms to form those dark areas. I'd have said that they were more like droplets of venous blood from a wound-----such as from her neck. Venous blood being pretty dark in colour as pictured,as in jugular.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 08, 2017, 08:45:AM
Not sure if you've already read this attachment - it's at least food for thought, among the many other opinions people have on this aspect.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8401.0.html

Thanks Roch. I have so many thoughts about the alleged call from Neville, but I'll read that thread and perhaps comment on it.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on September 08, 2017, 09:12:AM
I've tried to do one of your clever images David.  A crude attempt.  Forefinger; middle finger; ring finger; little finger (faintest).

Take a closer look. Runs of blood with build up at the end.  Furthermore when you look at the size of these compared to Sheila's hand these runs are tiny. They collectively span no more that 4 cm in my estimate.

If they were caused by combat it was with an altercation with no human or any earthy animal I can think of.  ;)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 08, 2017, 09:17:AM
The problem I have with the area of the darker spots is because there's less blood supply in the forearms to form those dark areas. I'd have said that they were more like droplets of venous blood from a wound-----such as from her neck. Venous blood being pretty dark in colour as pictured,as in jugular.





There were lots of small spots of blood on the carpet around Sheila,so whoever was wandering about,bleeding,possibly leaned over and dripped blood over Sheila. ?
Pieces of carpet were cut out where the staining was but unfortunately not much was made of it nor the pattern of staining which was carried through to the area beneath the window of the " sewing room ".
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on September 08, 2017, 09:25:AM
The problem I have with the area of the darker spots is because there's less blood supply in the forearms to form those dark areas. I'd have said that they were more like droplets of venous blood from a wound-----such as from her neck. Venous blood being pretty dark in colour as pictured,as in jugular.
Hi Lookout, If they are drips of blood from the neck the trails could not have run upwards, it is difficult to imagine how Sheila held her arms to achieve those blood trails from drips imo.
The spots are darker because the blood has congealed within the wounds however because her blood was healthy the gouges would be more likely to leak especially as she smoked. Cannabis and was prescribed Haloperidol both of which have a slight anticoagulant effect.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on September 08, 2017, 09:28:AM




There were lots of small spots of blood on the carpet around Sheila,so whoever was wandering about,bleeding,possibly leaned over and dripped blood over Sheila. ?
Pieces of carpet were cut out where the staining was but unfortunately not much was made of it nor the pattern of staining which was carried through to the area beneath the window of the " sewing room ".
We are told the drips of blood on the carpet are from June therefore if June dripped onto Sheila she must have died after Sheila?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 08, 2017, 09:39:AM
We are told the drips of blood on the carpet are from June therefore if June dripped onto Sheila she must have died after Sheila?





Which is all the more confusing because no time of death was ever recorded.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on September 08, 2017, 09:40:AM
The problem I have with the area of the darker spots is because there's less blood supply in the forearms to form those dark areas. I'd have said that they were more like droplets of venous blood from a wound-----such as from her neck. Venous blood being pretty dark in colour as pictured,as in jugular.
Hi Lookout, however the dark marks on Nevill's arms were made they are undoubtedly wounds, there are no blood trails possibly because Nevill's blood was stickier which is possible because often older people have stickier and a higher clotting rate of blood which is why they are prescribed anticoagulant such as warfarin.
The photos of Sheila and her wounds are very dark and very grainy but Roch states he has seen much clearer photos of Sheila's arms showing similar marks to Nevill's.  Roch also states June has similar wounds/ marks on her body.  You have said in the past that June has marks on her arms like Nevill and it seems you may be right but surely in that case the marks on Sheila's arms just may be the same?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on September 08, 2017, 09:44:AM




Which is all the more confusing because no time of death was ever recorded.
But Lookout, June cannot have died after Sheila unless she shot herself or someone else killed her. 
As you don't believe JB killed her and she most certainly did not shoot herself she cannot have died after Sheila.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 08, 2017, 09:52:AM
June could not have died after Sheila. She had apparently walked around the room after the first shots, but she had a shot to her head which would have killed her instantly where she was found - near the bedroom door.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on September 08, 2017, 09:55:AM
June could not have died after Sheila. She had apparently walked around the room after the first shots, but she had a shot to her head which would have killed her instantly where she was found - near the bedroom door.

I think June passed out/collpased after walking round for half a dozen or seconds after being shot. The subsequent shots were probably overkill.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 08, 2017, 09:58:AM
Hi Lookout, If they are drips of blood from the neck the trails could not have run upwards, it is difficult to imagine how Sheila held her arms to achieve those blood trails from drips imo.
The spots are darker because the blood has congealed within the wounds however because her blood was healthy the gouges would be more likely to leak especially as she smoked. Cannabis and was prescribed Haloperidol both of which have a slight anticoagulant effect.




Must be the way I'm looking at the pic because I see it as  the blood running downwards on her arm. Also because of the blood colour being " deoxygenated " ( dark ) I naturally thought it was from a vein ( neck )
Smoking has a tendency to make the blood sticky ( form clots ) as opposed to " thinning ", if she was smoking ordinary tobacco,but I suppose because of the Haldol and cannabis it could possibly have counteracted that,I'm not sure.

However,I'll have to study the pic again as I'm a bit hopeless looking at pics,preferring to see things in reality to get a better judgement,but that's not always possible or realistic in this case.
Sometimes you have to go over most things repeatedly ( I do anyway  ;D ;D ) to refresh the mind. Must go to Spec-Savers too,2003 was the last time  ::) ( just for reading )
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 08, 2017, 10:01:AM
Take a closer look. Runs of blood with build up at the end.  Furthermore when you look at the size of these compared to Sheila's hand these runs are tiny. They collectively span no more that 4 cm in my estimate.

If they were caused by combat it was with an altercation with no human or any earthy animal I can think of.  ;)

I'm not sure how you're working out the span between the four marks - but in reality, the red 'blobs' actually appear to be very raw.  The trails themselves are not great in length.  They appear to taper towards a position on the underside of her wrist.  In fact, one of the middle runs appears to flow in to the other.  Unless something obstructed Sheila's arm at three or four points along the wrist - I do not see how or why the blood would just suddenly coagulate, after such short runs from where the neck wound has dripped.  Also, if the runs stem from the where neck wound dripped blood on to the underside of her wrist - why did this blood disperse in to four separate streams? 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 08, 2017, 10:08:AM
I think June passed out/collpased after walking round for half a dozen or seconds after being shot. The subsequent shots were probably overkill.

Passed out near the door? She could have done, but if she had walked around the room before that and dripped blood onto Sheila's arm, who then shot her in the head?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on September 08, 2017, 10:23:AM
Passed out near the door? She could have done, but if she had walked around the room before that and dripped blood onto Sheila's arm, who then shot her in the head?

That would mean June was lying in bed doing nothing while somebody was murdering/engineering Sheilas faux suicide right next to the bed June lay in. Absurd scenario.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 08, 2017, 10:32:AM
June was originally slumped against the door because a patch of her blood is seen brushed up against it,so how she ended up completely flat on her back away from the door,I don't know. From a sitting position leant up against the door,she'd have eventually slid sideways and ended up in a curled-up position if she'd been dead at the time.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 08, 2017, 10:33:AM
That would mean June was lying in bed doing nothing while somebody was murdering/engineering Sheilas faux suicide right next to the bed June lay in. Absurd scenario.

Yes it would, and yes, it is absurd.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 08, 2017, 10:34:AM
June was originally slumped against the door because a patch of her blood is seen brushed up against it,so how she ended up completely flat on her back away from the door,I don't know. From a sitting position leant up against the door,she'd have eventually slid sideways and ended up in a curled-up position if she'd been dead at the time.

I can't find any pics of June in that position.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 08, 2017, 10:39:AM
Passed out near the door? She could have done, but if she had walked around the room before that and dripped blood onto Sheila's arm, who then shot her in the head?





Sheila,as that would account for the blood running up her arm instead of down,lifting up the rifle after her first shot.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 08, 2017, 10:46:AM




Sheila,as that would account for the blood running up her arm instead of down,lifting up the rifle after her first shot.

You think that Sheila shot herself once, and then June came over to her, dripped blood on Sheila's arm, and then Sheila lifted the rifle, shot June, and then shot herself again? June would have fallen on top of Sheila in that case.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 08, 2017, 11:42:AM
You think that Sheila shot herself once, and then June came over to her, dripped blood on Sheila's arm, and then Sheila lifted the rifle, shot June, and then shot herself again? June would have fallen on top of Sheila in that case.





I've always thought that the first shot had been done by someone struggling to retrieve the gun from Sheila,that it hadn't been done by Sheila herself. It hadn't been a contact shot and it had also hit the jaw-bone. Not somewhere ( the jawbone ) you'd aim for if you were taking your own life. The second,suicide shot was a contact one.

It's not impossible for Sheila to have been lying down as she took a final shot to her mother who,if she'd been struggling to stand,would have been hurled back at the door rather than her falling on top of Sheila,thus slumping as she went down.
We don't know the extent of June's injuries between 4am and 6am to judge if she'd been able to fight off Sheila,or the actual time of the shot that finally killed her. It's obvious that both women struggled,with similar fingernail indentations on June, Neville too,  as well as fingermarks around June's throat.

I reckon it had been June at the window possibly trying to summon help,hence the drips on the carpet there,though I wouldn't know where Sheila would have been at that time,or who switched lights on and off and opened and closed curtains. 

Without any times of death it's difficult to say who'd been alive at whatever time
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 08, 2017, 11:47:AM




I've always thought that the first shot had been done by someone struggling to retrieve the gun from Sheila,that it hadn't been done by Sheila herself. It hadn't been a contact shot and it had also hit the jaw-bone. Not somewhere ( the jawbone ) you'd aim for if you were taking your own life. The second,suicide shot was a contact one.

It's not impossible for Sheila to have been lying down as she took a final shot to her mother who,if she'd been struggling to stand,would have been hurled back at the door rather than her falling on top of Sheila,thus slumping as she went down.
We don't know the extent of June's injuries between 4am and 6am to judge if she'd been able to fight off Sheila,or the actual time of the shot that finally killed her. It's obvious that both women struggled,with similar fingernail indentations on June, Neville too,  as well as fingermarks around June's throat.

I reckon it had been June at the window possibly trying to summon help,hence the drips on the carpet there,though I wouldn't know where Sheila would have been at that time,or who switched lights on and off and opened and closed curtains. 

Without any times of death it's difficult to say who'd been alive at whatever time

If June had been standing near Sheila, and Sheila had taken a final shot at her, June would have ended up nearer the window. She couldn't have been hurled backwards and ended up near the door because the bed was in the way.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 08, 2017, 11:52:AM
If June had been standing near Sheila, and Sheila had taken a final shot at her, June would have ended up nearer the window. She couldn't have been hurled backwards and ended up near the door because the bed was in the way.





In the pic of June lying on the floor,the bed is clear of the door.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on September 08, 2017, 11:57:AM
If June had been standing near Sheila, and Sheila had taken a final shot at her, June would have ended up nearer the window. She couldn't have been hurled backwards and ended up near the door because the bed was in the way.
Anyway, would a .22 hurl someone that far backwards? Maybe a shot gun but I would question a .22 rifle would have that effect.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 08, 2017, 12:06:PM




In the pic of June lying on the floor,the bed is clear of the door.

Yes, but the bed is still in between Sheila and June.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 08, 2017, 04:45:PM
I think June passed out/collpased after walking round for half a dozen or seconds after being shot. The subsequent shots were probably overkill.

June had a number of wounds upon her legs.  Curved cuts, quite pronounced.  It is also possible that her head was thrust backwards (for example by a hand / fingernails / thumbnail).  She had a nasty gash to her chin and marks across her throat: where blood collected and the skin was broken in places.  As is already known, June also had a black eye which (rightly or wrongly) was not attributed to a fight. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on September 08, 2017, 07:31:PM
June had a number of wounds upon her legs.  Curved cuts, quite pronounced.  It is also possible that her head was thrust backwards (for example by a hand / fingernails / thumbnail).  She had a nasty gash to her chin and marks across her throat: where blood collected and the skin was broken in places.  As is already known, June also had a black eye which (rightly or wrongly) was not attributed to a fight.
I do wonder what caused those wounds to June's legs, curved cuts make it possible they were nail marks.  The only reason I can think of is that at some point someone attacked June by pulling at her legs. :-\
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on September 08, 2017, 07:40:PM
I do wonder what caused those wounds to June's legs, curved cuts make it possible they were nail marks.  The only reason I can think of is that at some point someone attacked June by pulling at her legs. :-\

There's no mention of them in the PM report.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 08, 2017, 08:05:PM
There's no mention of them in the PM report.

I think they are expressed as 'defence wounds', somewhere within Vanezis' testimony. Not sure where. Will check tomorrow.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 08, 2017, 08:12:PM
Yes and I'm pretty sure that Jeremy wouldn't have escaped defence wounds had he have been the murderer.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 08, 2017, 08:20:PM
I do wonder what caused those wounds to June's legs, curved cuts make it possible they were nail marks.  The only reason I can think of is that at some point someone attacked June by pulling at her legs. :-\

I could be mistaken but I think the cuts are bigger than fingernail size.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on September 08, 2017, 08:38:PM
I think they are expressed as 'defence wounds', somewhere within Vanezis' testimony. Not sure where. Will check tomorrow.

I think you are mistaken. There is a bullet wound (No 7) to June's leg which he suggests may have been caused when she raised it defensively. That's all there is.

Extract below:

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7638.0;attach=44920;image)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on September 08, 2017, 08:43:PM
He also shows the jury an image of Sheila's right arm with all the blood washed off.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on September 08, 2017, 08:47:PM
June had a number of wounds upon her legs.  Curved cuts, quite pronounced.  It is also possible that her head was thrust backwards (for example by a hand / fingernails / thumbnail).  She had a nasty gash to her chin and marks across her throat: where blood collected and the skin was broken in places.  As is already known, June also had a black eye which (rightly or wrongly) was not attributed to a fight.

Where are you getting this from Roch? Again, Venezis makes no mention of any such marks.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on September 08, 2017, 08:52:PM
I could be mistaken but I think the cuts are bigger than fingernail size.
I cannot think what would make crescent shaped cuts in such a scenario apart from nails.  Any ideas yourself?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on September 08, 2017, 09:01:PM
I cannot think what would make crescent shaped cuts in such a scenario apart from ails.  Any ideas yourself?

This is now June he is taking about?

I haven't seen what you refer to, but Vanesiz describes blood staining and a bullet wound.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: maggie on September 08, 2017, 09:17:PM
This is now June he is taking about?

I haven't seen what you refer to, but Vanesiz describes blood staining and a bullet wound.
I know Hartley but I am talking about the wounds Roch talked about.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on September 08, 2017, 09:25:PM
I know Hartley but I am talking about the wounds Roch talked about.

He talked about them but no one else did - certainly not Vanezis.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 08, 2017, 10:38:PM
What bothers me is that there is absolutely no sign of Sheila having moved between the two shots. I don't know how much time there was between shots, but if Jeremy did it wouldn't he wait a bit after the first shot to see if she died? Surely her instinct would have been to put her hands to her throat after the first shot, but there's no sign that she did that. Alternatively, surely she would have put her hands on the gun to push it away, but there were no fingerprints to suggest she did that. He might have wiped them off I suppose.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on September 08, 2017, 11:01:PM
What bothers me is that there is absolutely no sign of Sheila having moved between the two shots. I don't know how much time there was between shots, but if Jeremy did it wouldn't he wait a bit after the first shot to see if she died? Surely her instinct would have been to put her hands to her throat after the first shot, but there's no sign that she did that. Alternatively, surely she would have put her hands on the gun to push it away, but there were no fingerprints to suggest she did that. He might have wiped them off I suppose.

The second shot may have been accidental - I agree that it doesn't look as though she moved after the first shot. You would expect to see expirated blood around her mouth where she has spluttered but there is nothing.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 08, 2017, 11:04:PM
The second shot may have been accidental - I agree that it doesn't look as though she moved after the first shot. You would expect to see expirated blood around her mouth where she has spluttered but there is nothing.

Yes, there's just no sign of any movement from Sheila between the shots at all, not even any indication that she slumped at all and no sign of any spluttering - just nothing. For someone who's been shot, or shot herself, twice, the blood flow is remarkably "tidy".
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 09, 2017, 10:20:AM
Which would indicate that she'd been dead before the second shot was administered-----no pumping blood from the main vein.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 09, 2017, 10:23:AM
Which would indicate that she'd been dead before the second shot was administered-----no pumping blood from the main vein.

There is blood which came from the first wound though. We can't see the full extent of it because of the Bible.

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on September 09, 2017, 10:25:AM
Which would indicate that she'd been dead before the second shot was administered-----no pumping blood from the main vein.

She was sitting up for the first shot. Raised her wrist to her neck, then blood flowed down from her neck and down her wrist.

She was laid flat for the second shot, blood from her mouth only flows to the sides.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 09, 2017, 10:26:AM
It has.  The wounds have nothing to do with Sheila's (alleged) final resting position. They were incurred earlier, during a mortal struggle with an opponent.  The streams of blood are actually thin and would have quickly began to dry (I have described them as appearing 'dappled' in higher-def images).

If the trails of blood were from an injury incurred earlier they would not be so tidy - the blood would have gone in different directions and would probably have been smudged.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 09, 2017, 10:28:AM
She was sitting up for the first shot. Raised her wrist to her neck, then blood flowed down from her neck and down her wrist.

She was laid flat for the second shot, blood from her mouth only flows to the sides.

Yes, the blood from both wounds goes to the side, so if she was sitting up for the first shot she must have fallen back very quickly with her neck going slightly to the right. I'm very puzzled by the blood on her nightdress - I can't see how the blood went in that direction.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on September 09, 2017, 10:30:AM
Yes, there's just no sign of any movement from Sheila between the shots at all, not even any indication that she slumped at all and no sign of any spluttering - just nothing. For someone who's been shot, or shot herself, twice, the blood flow is remarkably "tidy".

And yet we've been fed stories of how the police shot her in the kitchen -after she'd played dead when she heard them coming in, as they reported seeing a female body- then accidentally lost her when she made her way upstairs, and accidentally shot her again whilst she was on the bed receiving CPR!!!!!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on September 09, 2017, 10:31:AM
Yes, the blood from both wounds goes to the side, so if she was sitting up for the first shot she must have fallen back very quickly with her neck going slightly to the right. I'm very puzzled by the blood on her nightdress - I can't see how the blood went in that direction.
Where do you mean, the blood near her shoulder, or down near her hand?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 09, 2017, 10:34:AM
Where do you mean, the blood near her shoulder, or down near her hand?

On her nightdress - there's a large stain where it got soaked with blood. I would expect the blood to continue running down to the right of her neck, not down her nightdress. There's a small gap towards the top of the nightdress where there's no blood. Perhaps it's the camera angle which is confusing me.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on September 09, 2017, 10:38:AM
On her nightdress - there's a large stain where it got soaked with blood. I would expect the blood to continue running down to the right of her neck, not down her nightdress. There's a small gap towards the top of the nightdress where there's no blood. Perhaps it's the camera angle which is confusing me.

I'm not sure  maybe it soaked in to the nightdress rather than actually flowed over that area.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 09, 2017, 10:39:AM
I'm not sure  maybe it soaked in to the nightdress rather than actually flowed over that area.

From the floor? Does blood behave like that on material? That's why it's a pity we can't see underneath the Bible.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 09, 2017, 10:44:AM
There is blood which came from the first wound though. We can't see the full extent of it because of the Bible.





The first wound would not have produced the same volume of blood which a main vein would------if she'd been alive after the second shot. Blood pumps rapidly from the jugular,but there's certainly no sign of that.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on September 09, 2017, 10:48:AM
From the floor? Does blood behave like that on material? That's why it's a pity we can't see underneath the Bible.

No, I mean there's a single flow of blood from the wound running down, then it expands to a larger blood stain. It may be that Sheila's arm was bent (as she had her wrist against her neck) and the blood pooled between her arm and body, soaking in to the nightdress, producing a stain over a larger area.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 09, 2017, 11:03:AM
No, I mean there's a single flow of blood from the wound running down, then it expands to a larger blood stain. It may be that Sheila's arm was bent (as she had her wrist against her neck) and the blood pooled between her arm and body, soaking in to the nightdress, producing a stain over a larger area.

But the blood from both wounds is running to her right - how did it change direction and run down her nightdress?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on September 09, 2017, 11:09:AM
But the blood from both wounds is running to her right - how did it change direction and run down her nightdress?

I'm not sure I follow. I think one wound is down her nightdress and in to the crook of her bent arm (whilst sitting up). The second wound is when she is laid flat and the blood flows sideways towards her armpit.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 09, 2017, 11:12:AM
I'm not sure I follow. I think one wound is down her nightdress and in to the crook of her bent arm (whilst sitting up). The second wound is when she is laid flat and the blood flows sideways towards her armpit.

In the photos it appears to me that the blood from the first wound is not going towards her armpit, it appears to be going to the side of her neck heading towards the carpet.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on September 09, 2017, 11:21:AM
In the photos it appears to me that the blood from the first wound is not going towards her armpit, it appears to be going to the side of her neck heading towards the carpet.

Have you read McDonnell's theory regarding the blood stains?
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,264.0.html
 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,264.0.html)

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 09, 2017, 11:23:AM
Sheila would obviously have moved her head after the first shot because of different blood flows while she'd been just about alive,but that second shot was done after death and more or less followed the first shot in succession.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 09, 2017, 11:25:AM
He talked about them but no one else did - certainly not Vanezis.

To some extent I stand corrected and must apologise.

He does not mention the wounds to her legs (and therefore did not describe them as 'defence wounds').

He mentions some blood tracks on her upper neck but does not elaborate any further nor describe her lower neck.

He attributes her black eye to the path of a bullet. 

He omits any mention of the chin wound.

 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 09, 2017, 11:30:AM
In the photos it appears to me that the blood from the first wound is not going towards her armpit, it appears to be going to the side of her neck heading towards the carpet.

What needs to be worked out is how the blood from her first wound landed on the underside of her wrist and then separated in to four separate streams, three of which ended in very distinctive spots of coagulated blood.  It's the opposite of the question I asked you the other day - when you expressed something along the lines of 'I see what you mean... maybe her head rolled forward'.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 09, 2017, 12:03:PM
It's the second wound that mystifies me.
Because of the rifle's semi-automatic status,could it mean that depressing the trigger twice emits two bullets consecutively within seconds of each other ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on September 09, 2017, 12:04:PM
It's the second wound that mystifies me.
Because of the rifle's semi-automatic status,could it mean that depressing the trigger twice emits two bullets consecutively within seconds of each other ?

Yes, that is exactly how it works. A trigger pull for each shot, without having to manually chamber or eject.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 09, 2017, 12:17:PM
Have you read McDonnell's theory regarding the blood stains?
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,264.0.html
 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,264.0.html)

Interesting - thank you. I still don't see how blood could run down her nightdress if her hand had been up near her throat.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 09, 2017, 12:21:PM
Yes, that is exactly how it works. A trigger pull for each shot, without having to manually chamber or eject.





That's the answer then ? That's how it happened.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 09, 2017, 12:21:PM
What needs to be worked out is how the blood from her first wound landed on the underside of her wrist and then separated in to four separate streams, three of which ended in very distinctive spots of coagulated blood.  It's the opposite of the question I asked you the other day - when you expressed something along the lines of 'I see what you mean... maybe her head rolled forward'.

I still think that those trails of blood are from drips and not from injuries, and could have been dropped on her arm when she shot herself the first time whilst sitting up. However, I do think that she fell backwards quickly after the first shot (because of the direction of the blood coming from her neck) so there may well not have been time for the blood to have dripped on her arm in that manner. In fact, those trails of blood are a real mystery to me. If Jeremy shot her, the same question applies - how did the blood get there?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 09, 2017, 12:24:PM
I still think that those trails of blood are from drips and not from injuries, and could have been dropped on her arm when she shot herself the first time whilst sitting up. However, I do think that she fell backwards quickly after the first shot (because of the direction of the blood coming from her neck) so there may well not have been time for the blood to have dripped on her arm in that manner. In fact, those trails of blood are a real mystery to me. If Jeremy shot her, the same question applies - how did the blood get there?

Vanezis disagrees with you.  He favours blood from her neck wound falling upon the underside of her wrist and then branching off in to four separate streams; three of which end in a coagulation that travels no further. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 09, 2017, 12:40:PM
Vanezis disagrees with you.  He favours blood from her neck wound falling upon the underside of her wrist and then branching off in to four separate streams; three of which end in a coagulation that travels no further.

It's such a pity we can't see the underside of those trails of blood? If he says that, how does he disagree with me?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 09, 2017, 12:42:PM
It's such a pity we can't see the underside of those trails of blood? If he says that, how does he disagree with me?

I interpreted your post as meaning that the spots of blood on her arm were where the blood had dripped from her neck wound. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 09, 2017, 12:44:PM
I interpreted your post as meaning that the spots of blood on her arm were where the blood had dripped from her neck wound.

Yes, and how does that differ much from this?

Quote
He favours blood from her neck wound falling upon the underside of her wrist and then branching off in to four separate streams; three of which end in a coagulation that travels no further. 

It could have been one drip or more than one drip. I think there's too much blood to be from one drip.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 09, 2017, 12:47:PM
Yes, and how does that differ much from this?

Because in one instance, the 'dots' are where the blood has landed from the neck - and in the other instance they are the opposite - i.e. they are at the end of the runs (and the blood from the neck has fell on the underside of her wrist).
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on September 09, 2017, 12:49:PM
Yes, and how does that differ much from this?

It could have been one drip or more than one drip. I think there's too much blood to be from one drip.

I think Vanesiz is suggesting the blood ran down her arm from her wrist, rather than blood dripping as such.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 09, 2017, 12:50:PM
Because in one instance, the 'dots' are where the blood has landed from the neck - and in the other instance they are the opposite - i.e. they are at the end of the runs (and the blood from the neck has fell on the underside of her wrist).

Oh I see. I've said before that I don't know if the darker spots are where the trails started or where they ended. I'm inclined to think it's where they ended. Does it matter that much?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 09, 2017, 12:50:PM
I think Vanesiz is suggesting the blood ran down her arm from her wrist, rather than blood dripping as such.

How did he think the blood got on her wrist in the first place?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 09, 2017, 12:52:PM
Oh I see. I've said before that I don't know if the darker spots are where the trails started or where they ended. I'm inclined to think it's where they ended. Does it matter that much?

You've kind of answered your own question with your next post.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 09, 2017, 12:54:PM
You've kind of answered your own question with your next post.

I'm afraid you'll have to explain that.  :))
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on September 09, 2017, 12:55:PM
How did he think the blood got on her wrist in the first place?

She held her wrist to the first wound momentarily.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 09, 2017, 12:58:PM
She held her wrist to the first wound momentarily.

She could have, but does that mean that she didn't shoot herself? You wouldn't put your wrist to such a wound anyway.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on September 09, 2017, 01:00:PM
She could have, but does that mean that she didn't shoot herself? You wouldn't put your wrist to such a wound anyway.

I think you'll get a different answer to that question depending on who you ask.  ;D
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 09, 2017, 01:03:PM
I think you'll get a different answer to that question depending on who you ask.  ;D

Yes. I get different answers even from myself.  :)) I might appear to be contradicting myself at times, but that's because I'm on the fence and I'm just taking note of what others are saying. It's a great discussion actually.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 09, 2017, 01:04:PM
She could have, but does that mean that she didn't shoot herself? You wouldn't put your wrist to such a wound anyway.

Imagine putting your wrist up to a neck wound gushing with blood.  What angle is your arm at when this happens?  Try it and see for your self. 

Now imagine that the blood has transferred to the wrist as Hartley suggests.  How does it then begin to separate in to four streams and travel to a point further accross the wrist - and then in a split second, suddenly coagulate and not travel any further?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 09, 2017, 01:12:PM
Imagine putting your wrist up to a neck wound gushing with blood.  What angle is your arm at when this happens?  Try it and see for your self. 

Now imagine that the blood has transferred to the wrist as Hartley suggests.  How does it then begin to separate in to four streams and travel to a point further accross the wrist - and then in a split second, suddenly coagulate and not travel any further?

For a start, I can't put the inside of my wrist against that part of my neck. I can put the lower part of my hand against it though, and yes, I can see how the blood would run. If I'm sitting up, the blood would run towards my elbow, and if I'm lying down, the blood would run towards my fingers, not towards my wrist.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 09, 2017, 01:22:PM
For a start, I can't put the inside of my wrist against that part of my neck. I can put the lower part of my hand against it though, and yes, I can see how the blood would run. If I'm sitting up, the blood would run towards my elbow, and if I'm lying down, the blood would run towards my fingers, not towards my wrist.

B i n g o
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 09, 2017, 01:24:PM
Even with the head bent and the arm across the front of your neck wouldn't form 4 stripes such as we see on Sheila,it's impossible without the blood running down your arm.
Those " stripes " were formed by another person.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 09, 2017, 01:51:PM
Even with the head bent and the arm across the front of your neck wouldn't form 4 stripes such as we see on Sheila,it's impossible without the blood running down your arm.
Those " stripes " were formed by another person.

See post 1124  :))
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 09, 2017, 01:56:PM
See post 1124  :))





Ooooooh yes. ;D
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 09, 2017, 02:05:PM
Is there a link to where Dr Vanezis talked about the blood trails? Thanks.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 09, 2017, 02:16:PM
Is there a link to where Dr Vanezis talked about the blood trails? Thanks.

The member 'Justice' posted them up not too long back.  He is your man for this particular transcript.  However, Hartley or Caroline may also be able to assist.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 09, 2017, 02:19:PM
The member 'Justice' posted them up not too long back.  He is your man for this particular transcript.  However, Hartley or Caroline may also be able to assist.

Thanks Roch.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on September 09, 2017, 02:27:PM
Is there a link to where Dr Vanezis talked about the blood trails? Thanks.

See here:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7638.msg362766.html#msg362766
 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7638.msg362766.html#msg362766)

Sheila is discussed first and then again when cross examined.

Edited to correct link.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 09, 2017, 02:32:PM
See here:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7638.msg362766.html#msg362766
 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7638.msg362766.html#msg362766)

Sheila is discussed first and then again when cross examined.

Edited to correct link.

Cheers Hartley - I had been looking and couldn't find anything!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 09, 2017, 02:38:PM
See here:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7638.msg362766.html#msg362766
 (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7638.msg362766.html#msg362766)

Sheila is discussed first and then again when cross examined.

Edited to correct link.

I think he means the court transcript that keeps getting thrown in my face on here - regarding the jury having apparently seen close ups of Sheila's wrist and arm with no wounds and only smears / runs etc etc. 

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 09, 2017, 04:52:PM
I'm afraid I can't read the text on that link anyway - it's very faint. Sorry.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on September 09, 2017, 05:40:PM
Is there a link to where Dr Vanezis talked about the blood trails? Thanks.

Hi Kaldin
I have just been trying to read Peter Venezis's  Autopsy Report and he clearly states Sheila's hands were blood stained this was his hand written one the typed one presented at trial sates her hands were clean :'( This was also stated in the book written by Scot Lomax who also stated her hands were washed before swabs were taken not sure where he got this from as I don't have the book but I will find out for you at some stage :)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 09, 2017, 05:55:PM
Hi Kaldin
I have just been trying to read Peter Venezis's  Autopsy Report and he clearly states Sheila's hands were blood stained this was his hand written one the typed one presented at trial sates her hands were clean :'( This was also stated in the book written by Scot Lomax who also stated her hands were washed before swabs were taken not sure where he got this from as I don't have the book but I will find out for you at some stage :)

Thanks Susan.  ^-^
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on September 11, 2017, 12:16:AM
This might be useful
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 11, 2017, 12:50:PM
The above wasn't really investigated was it ? As to how the lines may have been formed.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on September 11, 2017, 01:07:PM
The above wasn't really investigated was it ? As to how the lines may have been formed.

Simply because it could only ever be formed from opinion. The best one to make that opinion was Venezis who saw the actual body of Sheila and not grainy old pictures 30 years later.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 11, 2017, 01:42:PM
Simply because it could only ever be formed from opinion. The best one to make that opinion was Venezis who saw the actual body of Sheila and not grainy old pictures 30 years later.





So what was his opinion ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on September 11, 2017, 02:48:PM




So what was his opinion ?

David just posted a clear copy of his court transcript.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 11, 2017, 03:18:PM
David just posted a clear copy of his court transcript.






Except that I didn't see any conclusions reached over the blood pattern. How it got there.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on September 11, 2017, 03:44:PM
Roch out of curiosity. What donut told you these runs of blood were injuries and thus it was proof of Sheila's  involvement?  ???
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 11, 2017, 04:26:PM
Roch out of curiosity. What donut told you these runs of blood were injuries and thus it was proof of Sheila's  involvement?  ???

They are injuries and I have offered to bet money on it (precisely because I know they are injuries).

Blood is not going to transfer to her hand  one second and then dry and collect the very next second approximately two to three inches from where it transferred. Nobody has satisfactorily explained how it transferred. Not even Vanezis. He bluffed it out. 

The dark spots at various places on her arm  are not the end of blood trails.  They are the source.

Consider this, she has cuts to the skin on her upper arm which are completely independent of any run, trail or smear.  How likely is it that she has cuts to her upper arm but the marks on her mid and lower arm are merely where the blood has suddenly stopped and become congealed as it dries?  She has other wounds also - not even mentioned on here.  Besides, I don't believe you and others couldn't recognise the gouge/scrapes on the back of her hand or the angled cut on her lower forefinger. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on September 11, 2017, 04:33:PM
They are injuries and I have offered to bet money on it (precisely because I know they are injuries).

Blood is not going to transfer to her hand  one second and then dry and collect the very next second approximately two to three inches from where it transferred. Nobody has satisfactorily explained how it transferred. Not even Vanezis. He bluffed it out. 

The dark spots at various places on her arm  are not the end of blood trails.  They are the source.

Consider this, she has cuts to the skin on her upper arm which are completely independent of any run, trail or smear.  How likely is it that she has cuts to her upper arm but the marks on her mid and lower arm are merely where the blood has suddenly stopped and become congealed as it dries?  She has other wounds also - not even mentioned on here.  Besides, I don't believe you and others couldn't recognise the gouge/scrapes on the back of her hand or the angled cut on her lower forefinger.

And I don't believe many -other than supporters willing to home in on anything which they consider hopeful- believe that Vanezis "bluffed it out". He mentioned scars from breast augmentation, a tampon, minor, and totally insignificant abrasions, yet you have the gall to suggest he 'bluffed out' something which would have been obvious and major.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: buddy on September 11, 2017, 04:48:PM
And I don't believe many -other than supporters willing to home in on anything which they consider hopeful- believe that Vanezis "bluffed it out". He mentioned scars from breast augmentation, a tampon, minor, and totally insignificant abrasions, yet you have the gall to suggest he 'bluffed out' something which would have been obvious and major.
This is the problem with the guilters. Anything that does not go their way is responded with you have the gall to question me You have the gall to suggest that bamber is innocent. It's nothing to do with gall, we just don't trust the evidence.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 11, 2017, 04:53:PM
And I don't believe many -other than supporters willing to home in on anything which they consider hopeful- believe that Vanezis "bluffed it out". He mentioned scars from breast augmentation, a tampon, minor, and totally insignificant abrasions, yet you have the gall to suggest he 'bluffed out' something which would have been obvious and major.

He's crooked. He concealed her wounds. I'm not sure where gall comes in to it.  He doesn't mention some of June's wounds either.  If all three adults have fight wounds, the prosecution case can't even get off the ground in a courtroom.  Join the dots.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on September 11, 2017, 04:57:PM
This is the problem with the guilters. Anything that does not go their way is responded with you have the gall to question me You have the gall to suggest that bamber is innocent. It's nothing to do with gall, we just don't trust the evidence.
But how else can you assess the case buddy? You don't believe the Police, who lied on oath, you sneer at Peter Vanezis's conclusions, the Doctor Ferguson reached a false diagnosis..where does it all end?

I've just quoted Brett Collins as a source for Jeremy's hatred for June. Brett can hardly be described as a witness for the Prosecution. It buttresses what many of us think is similar to the David Bain case: these two simply cannot bring themselves to talk about any discord whatsoever in their family life lest it unleash a torrent of their real vitriolic feelings on the matter, which would expose them in a trice for the frauds they both are.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on September 11, 2017, 05:03:PM
He's crooked. He concealed her wounds. I'm not sure where gall comes in to it.  He doesn't mention some of June's wounds either.  If all three adults have fight wounds, the prosecution case can't even get off the ground in a courtroom.  Join the dots.

So does this tie in with Dr Craig only noting ONE injury on Sheila. He only noted ONE injury on the other victims, but I suppose that because they had more than two each, it doesn't count. And if it isn't gall, for someone with zero qualifications, other than a zealous desire to see a guilty man go free because experts don't say what they want them to, and because evidence doesn't stack up the way they believe it should, I don't know what is.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on September 11, 2017, 05:08:PM
But how else can you assess the case buddy? You don't believe the Police, who lied on oath, you sneer at Peter Vanezis's conclusions, the Doctor Ferguson reached a false diagnosis..where does it all end?

I've just quoted Brett Collins as a source for Jeremy's hatred for June. Brett can hardly be described as a witness for the Prosecution. It buttresses what many of us think is similar to the David Bain case: these two simply cannot bring themselves to talk about any discord whatsoever in their family life lest it unleash a torrent of their real vitriolic feelings on the matter, which would expose them in a trice for the frauds they both are.

steve if you read the autopsy report by Peter Venezis the hand written one says her palm is blood stained and this was transferred to her nighty but the typed one presented to the Court said her hands were clean it is there for you to read steve.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 11, 2017, 05:21:PM
So does this tie in with Dr Craig only noting ONE injury on Sheila. He only noted ONE injury on the other victims, but I suppose that because they had more than two each, it doesn't count. And if it isn't gall, for someone with zero qualifications, other than a zealous desire to see a guilty man go free because experts don't say what they want them to, and because evidence doesn't stack up the way they believe it should, I don't know what is.

It's not my fault you changed stance and painted yourself in to the opposite corner after the wallet thing. 

I think Dr Craig was referring to gunshot wounds. It's been claimed he genuinely witnessed Sheila with one wound. I suppose this is supposed to tie in with the Henderson/Hammersley' thing, where a SOCO accidentally causes the rifle to discharge, killing an unconscious Sheila. Truth is, I really don't know the truth of that.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 11, 2017, 05:24:PM
Correct Susan.He offers no explanation whatsoever about the " patterns " of the markings. Not even a suggestion of cigar burns on Neville-----------nothing. Everything's " unexplained " which is a favourite of any doctor who's unwilling to put unspecified marks under a microscope.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on September 11, 2017, 05:30:PM
It's not my fault you changed stance and painted yourself in to the opposite corner after the wallet thing. 

I think Dr Craig was referring to gunshot wounds. It's been claimed he genuinely witnessed Sheila with one wound. I suppose this is supposed to tie in with the Henderson/Hammersley' thing, where a SOCO accidentally causes the rifle to discharge, killing an unconscious Sheila. Truth is, I really don't know the truth of that.

Such irony. You accuse me of not being able to think for myself, but by so doing you point to the fact that in order to draw such a conclusion, you have to parrot another.

Are you SO desperate to see Jeremy released, whatever it takes, that you're prepared to suck up the story of the police shooting her TWICE?!!!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on September 11, 2017, 05:36:PM
Correct Susan.He offers no explanation whatsoever about the " patterns " of the markings. Not even a suggestion of cigar burns on Neville-----------nothing. Everything's " unexplained " which is a favourite of any doctor who's unwilling to put unspecified marks under a microscope.

Lookout he cannot say her right hand was blood stained and this transferred to her nightdress in his written report then in the typed one for the Court he said her hands were clean whether one thinks Jeremy is innocent or guilty this is not on at all and cannot be acceptable to anyone.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on September 11, 2017, 05:37:PM
Correct Susan.He offers no explanation whatsoever about the " patterns " of the markings. Not even a suggestion of cigar burns on Neville-----------nothing. Everything's " unexplained " which is a favourite of any doctor who's unwilling to put unspecified marks under a microscope.

Perhaps he didn't think it was done by a cigar? In which case he was perfectly correct in not mentioning it. I guess what he considered to be insignificant wasn't worth mention.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 11, 2017, 05:38:PM
Such irony. You accuse me of not being able to think for myself, but by so doing you point to the fact that in order to draw such a conclusion, you have to parrot another.

Are you SO desperate to see Jeremy released, whatever it takes, that you're prepared to suck up the story of the police shooting her TWICE?!!!

I have never said they did. It's not my fault that you completely misinterpret my posts. I have an open mind regarding what took place. What I have consistently posted since March is that you can have a guilty Jeremy but it must be within a scenario where Sheila was the main protagonist in the killings.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on September 11, 2017, 05:45:PM
I have never said they did. It's not my fault that you completely misinterpret my posts. I have an open mind regarding what took place. What I have consistently posted since March is that you can have a guilty Jeremy but it must be within a scenario where Sheila was the main protagonist in the killings.

OK. Supposing I accept that. Provide me with what could have led up to Sheila -if you insist on her being "the main protagonist"- bearing in mind her fragile mental health and her love of her boys, managed to coerce Jeremy into joining her on a killing spree. And please don't insult my intelligence by saying it's not for you to say. If you believe it happened that way, it didn't just come out of the ether,. It has background.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 11, 2017, 05:51:PM
Women who kill their children do it out of love and not hate.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on September 11, 2017, 05:52:PM
Women who kill their children do it out of love and not hate.

The majority of women don't kill.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 11, 2017, 05:55:PM
OK. Supposing I accept that. Provide me with what could have led up to Sheila -if you insist on her being "the main protagonist"- bearing in mind her fragile mental health and her love of her boys, managed to coerce Jeremy into joining her on a killing spree. And please don't insult my intelligence by saying it's not for you to say. If you believe it happened that way, it didn't just come out of the ether,. It has background.

I will gladly reply as soon as I've finished my chores.  :))
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on September 11, 2017, 06:13:PM
They are injuries and I have offered to bet money on it (precisely because I know they are injuries).

Blood is not going to transfer to her hand  one second and then dry and collect the very next second approximately two to three inches from where it transferred. Nobody has satisfactorily explained how it transferred. Not even Vanezis. He bluffed it out. 

The dark spots at various places on her arm  are not the end of blood trails.  They are the source.

Consider this, she has cuts to the skin on her upper arm which are completely independent of any run, trail or smear.  How likely is it that she has cuts to her upper arm but the marks on her mid and lower arm are merely where the blood has suddenly stopped and become congealed as it dries?  She has other wounds also - not even mentioned on here.  Besides, I don't believe you and others couldn't recognise the gouge/scrapes on the back of her hand or the angled cut on her lower forefinger.

I strongly recommend you look at the blood runs on Sheila's face via her mouth and nostrils. They look identical to what is on her arm. Because they are.

There is no evidence any serious fight broke out. The mess was caused by raid team and Nevill was too badly injured from the first three shots to put up such a fight.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 11, 2017, 06:45:PM
The majority of women don't kill.





Those who do,kill out of love for their children----------read up !!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on September 11, 2017, 06:48:PM




Those who do,kill out of love for their children----------read up !!

I'm sure some do, however, unless a suicide note -to that effect- is left, there really isn't any way of knowing.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 11, 2017, 06:51:PM
I'm sure some do, however, unless a suicide note -to that effect- is left, there really isn't any way of knowing.





There isn't always a suicide note as most are carried out on speck/spur of the moment. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on September 11, 2017, 06:59:PM
He's crooked. He concealed her wounds. I'm not sure where gall comes in to it.  He doesn't mention some of June's wounds either.  If all three adults have fight wounds, the prosecution case can't even get off the ground in a courtroom.  Join the dots.

You have joined the dots but made your own picture. He doesn't mention ANY such injuries in his notes that were written on the day of the autopsy and long BEFORE Jeremy was ever a suspect. These are the dots you have missed out.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on September 11, 2017, 07:16:PM




There isn't always a suicide note as most are carried out on speck/spur of the moment.

Which makes difficult sorting out which mothers kill out of love.

I have no doubt that Sheila loved her boys. I wonder why that might be? When I think about it, it's only because I've been told/read that she loved them. The reality, though, is that those who have never experienced maternal love being demonstrated, often don't know how to give it. Sheila had experienced such lack, not once, but twice. I can't help but wonder if she may have craved babies of her own, but not had a clue how to deal with them when they arrived?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on September 11, 2017, 07:43:PM
Which makes difficult sorting out which mothers kill out of love.

I have no doubt that Sheila loved her boys. I wonder why that might be? When I think about it, it's only because I've been told/read that she loved them. The reality, though, is that those who have never experienced maternal love being demonstrated, often don't know how to give it. Sheila had experienced such lack, not once, but twice. I can't help but wonder if she may have craved babies of her own, but not had a clue how to deal with them when they arrived?
You could tell from the picture that she was exhausted after the birth. I wonder if she was on medication even then?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on September 11, 2017, 07:43:PM
They are injuries and I have offered to bet money on it (precisely because I know they are injuries).

Blood is not going to transfer to her hand  one second and then dry and collect the very next second approximately two to three inches from where it transferred. Nobody has satisfactorily explained how it transferred. Not even Vanezis. He bluffed it out. 

The dark spots at various places on her arm  are not the end of blood trails.  They are the source.


Consider this, she has cuts to the skin on her upper arm which are completely independent of any run, trail or smear.  How likely is it that she has cuts to her upper arm but the marks on her mid and lower arm are merely where the blood has suddenly stopped and become congealed as it dries?  She has other wounds also - not even mentioned on here.  Besides, I don't believe you and others couldn't recognise the gouge/scrapes on the back of her hand or the angled cut on her lower forefinger.

That's how trail work. Blood trails but finds a point at which it stops collects and congeals. He's an example of that happening - consider this a sacrifice for the greater good! (I'm so brave!)  ;D

Just to clarify, the dark spots are the END of the blood trails!

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on September 11, 2017, 07:53:PM
You could tell from the picture that she was exhausted after the birth. I wonder if she was on medication even then?

Most new mothers are exhausted after giving birth to ONE baby -it's usually followed by exhilaration- but she must have felt terrified by the thought of coping with TWO, especially if she lacked the emotional tools to cope. She couldn't turn to June because I imagine she had less than Sheila -although I guess her practical help (financial?!) was welcome. One can only hope that Colin's mother was more 'natural' when it came to caring for babies.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 11, 2017, 08:44:PM
OK. Supposing I accept that. Provide me with what could have led up to Sheila -if you insist on her being "the main protagonist"- bearing in mind her fragile mental health and her love of her boys, managed to coerce Jeremy into joining her on a killing spree. And please don't insult my intelligence by saying it's not for you to say. If you believe it happened that way, it didn't just come out of the ether,. It has background.

If Jeremy was as dissatisfied and covetous as some have made out; if he had considered and plotted in his own mind; if he was impatient and regarded Sheila as being 'better off dead' etc. (i.e. all the stuff that Steve and others peddle) - then why would he not regard a stated intention her part to kill her self, as the perfect opportunity to achieve his aims by proxy?   So for example, he loaded the rifle and left it out for her, in the knowledge that something might indeed go wrong at the farm that night.  Hence why he is perceived as feigning grief and not showing remorse in the wake of the killings; and perceived as behaving arrogantly and living the high life etc.  Thinking he got away with the perfect crime because his sister actually did commit the killings.  He would know the silencer was bogus - if he himself didn't leave it on the rifle (which would explain why he has fought against the sound moderator so hard all these years).  He would be guilty of aiding and abetting killings having taken place, while at the same time, be a victim of being stitched up with bogus evidence and concealed facts.

She wouldn't need to 'coerce' him for assistance if it was his aim in the first place.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 11, 2017, 08:52:PM
Which has all got to be proven. ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on September 11, 2017, 08:52:PM
If Jeremy was as dissatisfied and covetous as some have made out; if he had considered and plotted in his own mind; if he was impatient and regarded Sheila as being 'better off dead' etc. (i.e. all the stuff that Steve and others peddle) - then why would he not regard a stated intention her part to kill her self, as the perfect opportunity to achieve his aims by proxy?   So for example, he loaded the rifle and left it out for her, in the knowledge that something might indeed go wrong at the farm that night.  Hence why he is perceived as feigning grief and not showing remorse in the wake of the killings; and perceived as behaving arrogantly and living the high life etc.  Thinking he got away with the perfect crime because his sister actually did commit the killings.  He would know the silencer was bogus - if he himself didn't leave it on the rifle (which would explain why he has fought against the sound moderator so hard all these years).  He would be guilty of aiding and abetting killings having taken place, while at the same time, be a victim of being stitched up with bogus evidence and concealed facts.

She wouldn't need to 'coerce' him for assistance if it was his aim in the first place.

The BIG flaw in that plan being the highlighted section. Might is no guarantee.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on September 11, 2017, 08:59:PM
If Jeremy was as dissatisfied and covetous as some have made out; if he had considered and plotted in his own mind; if he was impatient and regarded Sheila as being 'better off dead' etc. (i.e. all the stuff that Steve and others peddle) - then why would he not regard a stated intention her part to kill her self, as the perfect opportunity to achieve his aims by proxy?   So for example, he loaded the rifle and left it out for her, in the knowledge that something might indeed go wrong at the farm that night.  Hence why he is perceived as feigning grief and not showing remorse in the wake of the killings; and perceived as behaving arrogantly and living the high life etc.  Thinking he got away with the perfect crime because his sister actually did commit the killings.  He would know the silencer was bogus - if he himself didn't leave it on the rifle (which would explain why he has fought against the sound moderator so hard all these years).  He would be guilty of aiding and abetting killings having taken place, while at the same time, be a victim of being stitched up with bogus evidence and concealed facts.

She wouldn't need to 'coerce' him for assistance if it was his aim in the first place.

OK. But it relies heavily on him being told by her that she intended to commit suicide, and even then, there was no guarantee that she'd go through with it, so he could easily have decided to help her in a more positive way than just leaving out a gun which she may or may not use. He could then congratulate himself as having helped her to achieve her heart's desire.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 11, 2017, 09:01:PM
The BIG flaw in that plan being the highlighted section. Might is no guarantee.

Nevertheless, it's arguably well worth taking the risk - if she has informed him that she could take no more of her life and that it would happen that night.  He's supposed to be an opportunist and a psychotic risk taker isn't he?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on September 11, 2017, 09:03:PM
If Jeremy was as dissatisfied and covetous as some have made out; if he had considered and plotted in his own mind; if he was impatient and regarded Sheila as being 'better off dead' etc. (i.e. all the stuff that Steve and others peddle) - then why would he not regard a stated intention her part to kill her self, as the perfect opportunity to achieve his aims by proxy?   So for example, he loaded the rifle and left it out for her, in the knowledge that something might indeed go wrong at the farm that night.  Hence why he is perceived as feigning grief and not showing remorse in the wake of the killings; and perceived as behaving arrogantly and living the high life etc.  Thinking he got away with the perfect crime because his sister actually did commit the killings.  He would know the silencer was bogus - if he himself didn't leave it on the rifle (which would explain why he has fought against the sound moderator so hard all these years).  He would be guilty of aiding and abetting killings having taken place, while at the same time, be a victim of being stitched up with bogus evidence and concealed facts.

She wouldn't need to 'coerce' him for assistance if it was his aim in the first place.
We peddle it because we see the threads of the tragedy are interwoven, in a family where admittedly two adoptees at various times wished members of their families dead. But it was Jeremy who started out by thinking of cyanide, of sleeping pills, and then the ultimate plan, which he had baulked at heretofore because he was so squeamish: they would all have to be shot and he would have to be the perpetrator.

He knew his sister's idle talk and her propensity to want to be granted an audience, something she had never been able to do at school, at work or at home. Therein the conversation with Helen Grimster, where she could hold court, now that she had driven Colin away through her lengthy conversations on the meaning of life and her smashing of pots to achieve a reaction-any reaction from any random human she encountered.

It's this progression in the crime which the Jeremy supporters fail to acknowledge, along with the temptation of an undivided inheritance which five deaths would bring. He, like his sister, had never felt in charge, a bystander rather than participant in events, anxious not to be exposed for the nonentity he really was. He had no real plans in the aftermath apart from furtherance in sexual conquest, though the money his wickedness brought him would have secured friends for a time until their patience ran out and he was left a solitary figure once more, a braggart with nothing left to brag about.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 11, 2017, 09:05:PM
OK. But it relies heavily on him being told by her that she intended to commit suicide, and even then, there was no guarantee that she'd go through with it, so he could easily have decided to help her in a more positive way than just leaving out a gun which she may or may not use. He could then congratulate himself as having helped her to achieve her heart's desire.

I always keep in mind that Justice pointed out the conversation in the field.  Maybe she had decided.  But she needed Jeremy's assistance?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on September 11, 2017, 09:09:PM
Nevertheless, it's arguably well worth taking the risk - if she has informed him that she could take no more of her life and that it would happen that night.  He's supposed to be an opportunist and a psychotic risk taker isn't he?

Who said he was psychotic? I don't think he would leave things to that much chance and rely on her killing herself, far too many 'what ifs'.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on September 11, 2017, 09:11:PM
Nevertheless, it's arguably well worth taking the risk - if she has informed him that she could take no more of her life and that it would happen that night.  He's supposed to be an opportunist and a psychotic risk taker isn't he?

No one has EVER suggested that he was psychotic. Besides which, the British judicial system can't run on perhaps and maybe.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 11, 2017, 09:13:PM
Who said he was psychotic? I don't think he would leave things to that much chance and rely on her killing herself, far too many 'what ifs'.

No one has EVER suggested that he was psychotic. Besides which, the British judicial system can't run on perhaps and maybe.

It was a typo.  I meant psychopathic.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 11, 2017, 09:14:PM
Perhaps Roch meant psychopathic ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on September 11, 2017, 09:15:PM
I always keep in mind that Justice pointed out the conversation in the field.  Maybe she had decided.  But she needed Jeremy's assistance?
But they didn't get along, as Jeremy told the Police outside the house, knowing all were dead within. She wasn't the only one who felt something sinister in his presence, as Colin's book attests, she baulked whenever the telephone rang and would pass the receiver to Colin, we don't know what transpired in the conversation in the fields, but Jeremy's insecurity resurfaced as he pondered the future of the boys. Again at their last conversation at the supper table it was Jeremy who instigated the discussion on adoption, hoping to sow discord among the family and unsettle her yet again. In the last note in her diary she repented on being "horrible" to him, as she possibly referred to rumours she had heard since she had arrived in the village of his sexual deviance and thrust in his face as weapon of choice whenever things got heated.

Yes Sheila was unwell, she couldn't function independently however much she wished it were so, but Jeremy was a fly in the ointment, not a palliative to solve all her problems.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on September 11, 2017, 09:17:PM
It was a typo.  I meant psychopathic.

AS a result, he wouldn't have left the control to Sheila.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 11, 2017, 09:40:PM
I strongly recommend you look at the blood runs on Sheila's face via her mouth and nostrils. They look identical to what is on her arm. Because they are.

There is no evidence any serious fight broke out. The mess was caused by raid team and Nevill was too badly injured from the first three shots to put up such a fight.

I've had a look as suggested but cannot see any real similarity to be honest.  The are both sets of 'runs' but do not take the same form.   

All three adults have what could be described as fight / defence wounds - which is why I am arguing the case for physical conflict to have occurred between them.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 11, 2017, 09:42:PM
AS a result, he wouldn't have left the control to Sheila.

It's the lesser of two evils when compared to placing himself in the crime scene and risking injury.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on September 11, 2017, 09:47:PM
If Jeremy was as dissatisfied and covetous as some have made out; if he had considered and plotted in his own mind; if he was impatient and regarded Sheila as being 'better off dead' etc. (i.e. all the stuff that Steve and others peddle) - then why would he not regard a stated intention her part to kill her self, as the perfect opportunity to achieve his aims by proxy?   So for example, he loaded the rifle and left it out for her, in the knowledge that something might indeed go wrong at the farm that night.  Hence why he is perceived as feigning grief and not showing remorse in the wake of the killings; and perceived as behaving arrogantly and living the high life etc.  Thinking he got away with the perfect crime because his sister actually did commit the killings.  He would know the silencer was bogus - if he himself didn't leave it on the rifle (which would explain why he has fought against the sound moderator so hard all these years).  He would be guilty of aiding and abetting killings having taken place, while at the same time, be a victim of being stitched up with bogus evidence and concealed facts.

She wouldn't need to 'coerce' him for assistance if it was his aim in the first place.

Hi Roch
very interesting post.  I have often thought he had brainwashed Sheila into killing her family and herself and he left the rifle out minus a silencer and when he found out what had happened he had been successful without getting involved so he would be on a high.  She did go down to the field on the day prior to the murders and I have wondered what that was about,  Jeremy has claimed all these years that he did not kill his family and to a point this is true and he knows the silencer was never used and he knows he was stitched up.  We will never know the truth but I am convinced Sheila was the shooter.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on September 11, 2017, 09:49:PM
It's the lesser of two evils when compared to placing himself in the crime scene and risking injury.

Risking injury? Why would that be a consideration?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on September 11, 2017, 09:50:PM
It's the lesser of two evils when compared to placing himself in the crime scene and risking injury.

Roch that is true this way he was taking no risks but had everything to gain if Sheila carried out the murders if she backed off he could always try again.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 11, 2017, 09:51:PM
That's how trail work. Blood trails but finds a point at which it stops collects and congeals. He's an example of that happening - consider this a sacrifice for the greater good! (I'm so brave!)  ;D

Just to clarify, the dark spots are the END of the blood trails!

Sheila's dark spots don't look like that.  I would describe them more as proto-scabs.  Also, if you or (somebody else with nails) gouged your own arm with sufficient force, it may lead to a run of blood.  The wound site would begin to scab over - but might be prone to bleeding if knocked. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on September 11, 2017, 09:52:PM
Hi Roch
very interesting post.  I have often thought he had brainwashed Sheila into killing her family and herself and he left the rifle out minus a silencer and when he found out what had happened he had been successful without getting involved so he would be on a high.  She did go down to the field on the day prior to the murders and I have wondered what that was about,  Jeremy has claimed all these years that he did not kill his family and to a point this is true and he knows the silencer was never used and he knows he was stitched up.  We will never know the truth but I am convinced Sheila was the shooter.
..and Nevill somehow managed to inform Jeremy about the whole thing, but failed to prevent the massacre..
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 11, 2017, 09:53:PM
Risking injury? Why would that be a consideration?

Because he would be immediately rumbled as having had involvement - if he sustained wounds.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on September 11, 2017, 09:53:PM
It's the lesser of two evils when compared to placing himself in the crime scene and risking injury.

Psychopaths are nature's risk takers.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on September 11, 2017, 09:54:PM
Sheila's dark spots don't look like that.  I would describe them more as proto-scabs.  Also, if you or (somebody else with nails) gouged your own arm with sufficient force, it may lead to a run of blood.  The wound site would begin to scab over - but might be prone to bleeding if knocked.
]
They do look like that because that's what they are.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 11, 2017, 09:55:PM
Hi Roch
very interesting post.  I have often thought he had brainwashed Sheila into killing her family and herself and he left the rifle out minus a silencer and when he found out what had happened he had been successful without getting involved so he would be on a high.  She did go down to the field on the day prior to the murders and I have wondered what that was about,  Jeremy has claimed all these years that he did not kill his family and to a point this is true and he knows the silencer was never used and he knows he was stitched up.  We will never know the truth but I am convinced Sheila was the shooter.

I don't think he would need to have brainwashed her.  He would just need to have not looked a gift horse in the mouth. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 11, 2017, 09:56:PM
]
They do look like that because that's what they are.

Your dark spots look very benign compared to Sheila's. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on September 11, 2017, 09:57:PM
I don't think he would need to have brainwashed her.  He would just need to have not looked a gift horse in the mouth.

I don't go for any of this but if you do, you can't deny he's as guilty as she would have been - in fact far more!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 11, 2017, 09:58:PM
Psychopaths are nature's risk takers.

That doesn't mean they are stupid or want to get caught.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on September 11, 2017, 09:59:PM
Your dark spots look very benign compared to Sheila's.

Well, now, that might be because I just pricked my finger to show you how blood stops at a certain point. I certainly wasn't going to do any gouging or lacerating. However, one a smaller scale, they have reacted the same as the trials on Sheila.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 11, 2017, 10:01:PM
I don't go for any of this but if you do, you can't deny he's as guilty as she would have been - in fact far more!

Let's just say it's a niggle in my mind.  HorseyDave once posted that 'he knows more than he's letting on'.

I haven't managed to get rid of the niggle - yet. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on September 11, 2017, 10:02:PM
That doesn't mean they are stupid or want to get caught.

Which is why they take control and don't leave things to the chance that their schizophrenic sister, infamiliar with the rifle of choice will be able to carry out 4 murders (including her own kids) and then kill herself without hitch. That is far more risky then taking the initiative yourself.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: susan on September 11, 2017, 10:02:PM
..and Nevill somehow managed to inform Jeremy about the whole thing, but failed to prevent the massacre..

Steve maybe Julie could have prevented it
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on September 11, 2017, 10:03:PM
Let's just say it's a niggle in my mind.  HorseyDave once posted that 'he knows more than he's letting on'.

I haven't managed to get rid of the niggle - yet.

Horsey Dave ended up being a Horsey Fraud and had never worked at WHF as he claimed.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 11, 2017, 10:04:PM
Horsey Dave ended up being a Horsey Fraud and had never worked at WHF as he claimed.

HorseyDave was a bit of an enigma.  He seemed to be able to play both sides. 
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on September 11, 2017, 10:07:PM
HorseyDave was a bit of an enigma.  He seemed to be able to play both sides.

That's probably what he was here for. Lots of people claim to know this, that and the other - often they really only seem to know that guy ....... ermm, what's his name again? Oh yeah ...... Jack Sh*t  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on September 11, 2017, 10:08:PM
That doesn't mean they are stupid or want to get caught.

The point is, they're such egotists, and so confident, they don't believe they'll get caught.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on September 11, 2017, 10:38:PM
Psychopaths are nature's risk takers.

If you want to talk about psychopathy and other immaterial aspects of this case.

We have Professor Egan's opinion that Jeremy is not a psychopath. Plus Mr Mullins opinion that Jeremy was not showing deception under polygraph questioning if he killed his family.

This complementary evidence if far more reliable than the unqualified nonsense people post on this forum.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on September 11, 2017, 11:01:PM
If you want to talk about psychopathy and other immaterial aspects of this case.

We have Professor Egan's opinion that Jeremy is not a psychopath. Plus Mr Mullins opinion that Jeremy was not showing deception under polygraph questioning if he killed his family.

This complementary evidence if far more reliable than the unqualified nonsense people post on this forum.

Didn't you recently state;

I will post some interesting developments on the scratches under the mantelpiece. Hopefully today.

It is an idea I am exploring. But considering that an amateur who no qualifications in cryptology cracked the Zodiac Killer's code. An amateur with no qualifications in astronomy or celestial mechanics  discovered planet. Your definition is ill-founded.

I think you need to follow you own line .....

Think you need to start taking your own advice Adam.  ;D
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 12, 2017, 08:09:AM
The guilty always think that they can beat a machine ! Full of bravado when committing crimes,little knowing of the sensitivity of the pointer on the machine which picks up a lie within a hairs breadth of its movement. It only needs a slight increase in blood pressure and you've got your man.

There are the odd one or two who can control their blood pressure,but that's a fine art,but after all JB is dumb " he got caught " so therefore would have failed the test.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on September 12, 2017, 08:24:AM
The guilty always think that they can beat a machine ! Full of bravado when committing crimes,little knowing of the sensitivity of the pointer on the machine which picks up a lie within a hairs breadth of its movement. It only needs a slight increase in blood pressure and you've got your man.

There are the odd one or two who can control their blood pressure,but that's a fine art,but after all JB is dumb " he got caught " so therefore would have failed the test.

I'd say it's innate ability. If one doesn't feel emotion and is super confident in one's ability to beat the 'box', anything's possible. The box is fallible which is why it's use is limited.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 12, 2017, 08:39:AM
I'd say it's innate ability. If one doesn't feel emotion and is super confident in one's ability to beat the 'box', anything's possible. The box is fallible which is why it's use is limited.





I think there's more to the reason why the detectors are limited. Do-gooders would ban them altogether !
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on September 12, 2017, 08:41:AM




I think there's more to the reason why the detectors are limited. Do-gooders would ban them altogether !

Would that be so bad. I'd fail, no matter that I was as innocent as a new born.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 12, 2017, 09:05:AM
Would that be so bad. I'd fail, no matter that I was as innocent as a new born.





So would I because my blood-pressure is ropey.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on September 12, 2017, 11:56:AM




So would I because my blood-pressure is ropey.

The test has counter measures to take things ike high blood pressure and nerves into account. But it's not a lie detector, it just detects stress changes.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on September 12, 2017, 12:37:PM
He's crooked. He concealed her wounds. I'm not sure where gall comes in to it.  He doesn't mention some of June's wounds either.  If all three adults have fight wounds, the prosecution case can't even get off the ground in a courtroom.  Join the dots.

If as you say Venezis was 'crooked', all he had to do was say the state of the body indicated murder. He never made that distinction so that would have bee in favour of Bamber.

Three adults didn't have fight wounds, you've just convinced yourself that that is the case. We will see where this goes but you can always claim corruption 'when' it goes nowhere.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 12, 2017, 12:37:PM
The test has counter measures to take things ike high blood pressure and nerves into account. But it's not a lie detector, it just detects stress changes.





Exactly,so how would one know the difference in stress changes ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 12, 2017, 04:29:PM
That's probably what he was here for. Lots of people claim to know this, that and the other - often they really only seem to know that guy ....... ermm, what's his name again? Oh yeah ...... Jack Sh*t  ;D ;D

Some of his posts were intriguing.  I got the feeling that he did have some inside info or recollection of those times.  I know Vic & Hartley tried to out him as fake.  I used to laugh when he referred to JM as 'Munford'.  :))
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on September 12, 2017, 04:40:PM




Exactly,so how would one know the difference in stress changes ?

How come you sounded so enthusiastic about it's use in reply 1207?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 12, 2017, 04:56:PM
How come you sounded so enthusiastic about it's use in reply 1207?





Enthusiastic ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 12, 2017, 04:59:PM
Just intrigued to find out if there were any answers to my queries,that's all.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on September 12, 2017, 07:03:PM
Some of his posts were intriguing.  I got the feeling that he did have some inside info or recollection of those times.  I know Vic & Hartley tried to out him as fake.  I used to laugh when he referred to JM as 'Munford'.  :))

Guess he knew her well then  ;D
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on September 12, 2017, 07:14:PM




Exactly,so how would one know the difference in stress changes ?

Not sure what you're asking? The machine measures stress reactions to particular questions. If heart rate and galvanic skin response is increased when asked a particular question relevant to involvement in a crime, it would be classed as a untrue response.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on September 13, 2017, 01:36:PM
Didn't you recently state;

I think you need to follow you own line .....

No, because I'm talking about 'immaterial' evidence ie Things that can't really prove anything.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on September 13, 2017, 01:36:PM
Some of his posts were intriguing.  I got the feeling that he did have some inside info or recollection of those times.  I know Vic & Hartley tried to out him as fake.  I used to laugh when he referred to JM as 'Munford'.  :))

Who's Vic?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on September 13, 2017, 03:26:PM
No, because I'm talking about 'immaterial' evidence ie Things that can't really prove anything.

So was I!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on September 15, 2017, 09:59:PM
Another example of blood runnels that look similar to Sheila's arm.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 15, 2017, 10:26:PM
Who's Vic?

For some period of time he acted as a spokesperson for 'the relatives'.   He was also a film producer.  I'm not sure what he's up to these days.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on September 15, 2017, 10:34:PM
For some period of time he acted as a spokesperson for 'the relatives'.   He was also a film producer.  I'm not sure what he's up to these days.

Spokesperson for 'the relatives' and Film producer eh?  did he make this by any chance?

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpoUzN7RhQo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpoUzN7RhQo)


 ;D
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on September 16, 2017, 10:33:AM
Spokesperson for 'the relatives' and Film producer eh?  did he make this by any chance?

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpoUzN7RhQo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpoUzN7RhQo)


 ;D
I think members should watch this again. Though containing some inaccuracies the gist of it is heartbreaking.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 16, 2017, 10:36:AM
Anyone seeing that video for the first time would say he should have been hanged. I would.
But--------------that is only one story.

What happens to material like this when the man is finally released ? More court cases for libel defamation slander etc ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 16, 2017, 10:42:AM
I don't think I've seen that one before, and I've only watched a few seconds so far. The first thing I'll say is that they could have got the position of the Bible correct - they're showing it next to her left arm in the reconstruction.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on September 16, 2017, 10:45:AM
Anyone seeing that video for the first time would say he should have been hanged. I would.
But--------------that is only one story.

What happens to material like this when the man is finally released ? More court cases for libel defamation slander etc ?
I wish I hadn't seen it this morning; it will make me melancholic all day.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 16, 2017, 11:03:AM
I wish I hadn't seen it this morning; it will make me melancholic all day.





It paints such a bad picture that if you believed everything about the video,you'd truly ask yourself why you're here discussing a mass murderer. The last person on this earth that you'd give air time to.
If I thought for one minute he was guilty,I wouldn't be here because it's the sickest video I've seen. What would there be to discuss ??
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on September 16, 2017, 11:24:AM




It paints such a bad picture that if you believed everything about the video,you'd truly ask yourself why you're here discussing a mass murderer. The last person on this earth that you'd give air time to.
If I thought for one minute he was guilty,I wouldn't be here because it's the sickest video I've seen. What would there be to discuss ??
Police inconsistencies I suppose, in an effort to get him off on a technicality.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 16, 2017, 11:42:AM
Police inconsistencies I suppose, in an effort to get him off on a technicality.
[/quote





A technicality is not an option,nor does Jeremy himself want it that way. He said this ages ago as all he wants is the truth.
Wouldn't you have thought that after all these years,him knowing that a confession could have reduced his sentence that he'd have done so had he been guilty ? Plenty of others would have done guilty or not,but his sheer determination to do the right thing and see this " fiasco " through will eventually pay off,hopefully in my life-time then I can see it happen.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Roch on September 16, 2017, 11:42:AM
Police inconsistencies I suppose, in an effort to get him off on a technicality.

He's not trying to get off on technicalities.  He's being KEPT IN on technicalities!

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on September 16, 2017, 11:44:AM
I think members should watch this again. Though containing some inaccuracies the gist of it is heartbreaking.

Glaring FACTUAL inaccuracies, Steve, eg. timings/Julie driving down from London/discussion over dessert!!! etc, etc, etc. However, the psychology is spot on.....................well, it bears out everything I'VE said ;) ;D
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 16, 2017, 11:45:AM
That and the fear of the millions in costs,etc !!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on September 16, 2017, 11:53:AM
I think members should watch this again. Though containing some inaccuracies the gist of it is heartbreaking.

It's not great. Too many errors.

Barbara doesn't sound very convincing.
Then there's really basic things, apparently JB found his father's Will in November 1985, did he escape from prison to find it?
I think I've seen it before, but turned it off after 15 minutes this time.

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 16, 2017, 12:00:PM
It's not great. Too many errors.

Barbara doesn't sound very convincing.
Then there's really basic things, apparently JB found his father's Will in November 1985, did he escape from prison to find it?
I think I've seen it before, but turned it off after 15 minutes this time.

It said he saw the Will in April 1985.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on September 16, 2017, 12:03:PM
It's not great. Too many errors.

Barbara doesn't sound very convincing.
Then there's really basic things, apparently JB found his father's Will in November 1985, did he escape from prison to find it?
I think I've seen it before, but turned it off after 15 minutes this time.

She doesn't, does she? Too much eye shifting and fumbling for words. making the most of her few moments of 'fame' perhaps? Camera shy? I'm still wondering how he managed to get a bag? of live rats in her car.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on September 16, 2017, 12:11:PM
It said he saw the Will in April 1985.

So it does.  :-[
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 16, 2017, 12:13:PM
From what I've seen so far, someone could make a video from Sheila's point of view too and come up with all kinds of reasons why she might have done it. It is speculation about Jeremy's state of mind, his relationship with his parents and sister, and his motive.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on September 16, 2017, 12:15:PM
She doesn't, does she? Too much eye shifting and fumbling for words. making the most of her few moments of 'fame' perhaps? Camera shy? I'm still wondering how he managed to get a bag? of live rats in her car.

I also don't understand the caravan break in. It says he confessed the next day.

I thought he was only arrested for it after JM spilt the beans.  :-\
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 16, 2017, 12:17:PM
I agree Kaldin.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 16, 2017, 12:18:PM
I also don't understand the caravan break in. It says he confessed the next day.

I thought he was only arrested for it after JM spilt the beans.  :-\

I thought so too, but I must admit it's not something I've paid a lot of attention to.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on September 16, 2017, 12:19:PM
From what I've seen so far, someone could make a video from Sheila's point of view too and come up with all kinds of reasons why she might have done it. It is speculation about Jeremy's state of mind, his relationship with his parents and sister, and his motive.

Yes, I think that's a fair comment.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on September 16, 2017, 12:19:PM
From what I've seen so far, someone could make a video from Sheila's point of view too and come up with all kinds of reasons why she might have done it. It is speculation about Jeremy's state of mind, his relationship with his parents and sister, and his motive.

They could, but the psychology wouldn't fit. A big part of the problem lay with Jeremy witnessing Sheila getting it all but not having to do anything for it. Sheila knew how to get her needs met and Jeremy's took second place. I'm not saying that's exactly how it was. I'm saying that's probably how Jeremy experienced it.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 16, 2017, 12:20:PM
Nevill foresaw that he would die via a shooting incident? Oh really, that is pushing it a bit. In that case, he would make sure the guns weren't accessible, and he wouldn't have let Jeremy have access to them.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on September 16, 2017, 12:23:PM
I also don't understand the caravan break in. It says he confessed the next day.

I thought he was only arrested for it after JM spilt the beans.  :-\

Hehee! I'm doing a Lookout ;D I'm certain that I read somewhere -it HAS to be here- that he (and Julie?) went and confessed the next day.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on September 16, 2017, 12:26:PM
Nevill foresaw that he would die via a shooting incident? Oh really, that is pushing it a bit. In that case, he would make sure the guns weren't accessible, and he wouldn't have let Jeremy have access to them.

It's a bit strange.

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on September 16, 2017, 12:28:PM
Nevill foresaw that he would die via a shooting incident? Oh really, that is pushing it a bit. In that case, he would make sure the guns weren't accessible, and he wouldn't have let Jeremy have access to them.
Nevertheless that's how it was. As far as Sheila was concerned she was beginning to regain a little confidence, as reported by friend Agnes Mennie in July. Another friend John Morgan reported that on 14 July she told him how grateful she was to her parents for setting her up in the flat and helping her financially with the children. It's true Sheila was still ill, as evidenced by the silence on the journey down to White House Farm, but I think Jeremy sensed this was his opportunity with all the family gathered together, especially as June had made arrangements for Sheila's annual allowance, which had yet to come into effect.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 16, 2017, 12:28:PM
There are so many inaccuracies in that video. Jeremy did not leave the gun on the table IMO. The table had plates and stuff on it and was cluttered, it wasn't clear as they have portrayed in the video.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on September 16, 2017, 12:28:PM
Hehee! I'm doing a Lookout ;D I'm certain that I read somewhere -it HAS to be here- that he (and Julie?) went and confessed the next day.

 ;D
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on September 16, 2017, 12:29:PM
There are so many inaccuracies in that video. Jeremy did not leave the gun on the table IMO. The table had plates and stuff on it and was cluttered, it wasn't clear as they have portrayed in the video.
No but if you look beyond that you will get the gist as to the relationship between Jeremy, his sister and his parents.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 16, 2017, 12:30:PM
Nevertheless that's how it was. As far as Sheila was concerned she was beginning to regain a little confidence, as reported by friend Agnes Mennie in July. Another friend John Morgan reported that on 14 July she told him how grateful she was to her parents for setting her up in the flat and helping her financially with the children. It's true Sheila was still ill, as evidenced by the silence on the journey down to White House Farm, but I think Jeremy sensed this was his opportunity with all the family gathered together, especially as June had made arrangements for Sheila's annual allowance, which had yet to come into effect.

But how would Nevill have predicted it, unless he heard Jeremy discussing it beforehand? If he did hear him, he would not have let Jeremy have access to guns.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 16, 2017, 12:31:PM
No but if you look beyond that you will get the gist as to the relationship between Jeremy, his sister and his parents.

I am trying to look beyond the inaccuracies, but with so many of them the speculation re his relationships kind of loses a bit of credibility. As I said, someone could do a video re Sheila's relationship with her parents and children, and come up with the conclusion that she'd done it.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on September 16, 2017, 12:32:PM
Nevill foresaw that he would die via a shooting incident? Oh really, that is pushing it a bit. In that case, he would make sure the guns weren't accessible, and he wouldn't have let Jeremy have access to them.

How do you propose he'd have done that, Kaldin? Jeremy was a grown man, What's nevill going to say when Jeremy asks for a gun, MORE, what's he going to do when Jeremy does as he always has done and goes to the -never locked because there isn't a lock- gun cupboard? I concur that the premonition MAY be pushing it a bit, however, I can recount an incident during which the argument between Jeremy and Nevill became so heated, that after Jeremy stormed out, Nevill broke down in tears. The person who witnessed it -a great friend of both Nevill and June- cried when he told me.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on September 16, 2017, 12:32:PM
But how would Nevill have predicted it, unless he heard Jeremy discussing it beforehand? If he did hear him, he would not have let Jeremy have access to guns.
Jeremy had access to guns due to the nature of farming work. Nevill probably sensed something was amiss whenever he glanced in his direction. He told Barbara that "the shooting season's coming up..accidents do happen". He probably thought he himself was the intended victim, not the whole family.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on September 16, 2017, 12:33:PM
No but if you look beyond that you will get the gist as to the relationship between Jeremy, his sister and his parents.

If they don't get the basics correct, then why should we expect anything else to be accurate?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on September 16, 2017, 12:33:PM
How do you propose he'd have done that, Kaldin? Jeremy was a grown man, What's nevill going to say when Jeremy asks for a gun, MORE, what's he going to do when Jeremy does as he always has done and goes to the -never locked because there isn't a lock- gun cupboard? I concur that the premonition MAY be pushing it a bit, however, I can recount an incident during which the argument between Jeremy and Nevill became so heated, that after Jeremy stormed out, Nevill broke down in tears. The person who witnessed it -a great friend of both Nevill and June- cried when he told me.
Was this John Seward Jane?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 16, 2017, 12:34:PM
Hehee! I'm doing a Lookout ;D I'm certain that I read somewhere -it HAS to be here- that he (and Julie?) went and confessed the next day.





No. You're wrong !  ( I'm doing a Jane )
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on September 16, 2017, 12:34:PM
If they don't get the basics correct, then why should we expect anything else to be accurate?
Well the location of the silencer was done for simplicity I suppose. But you're right; there's no excuse.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 16, 2017, 12:35:PM
How do you propose he'd have done that, Kaldin? Jeremy was a grown man, What's nevill going to say when Jeremy asks for a gun, MORE, what's he going to do when Jeremy does as he always has done and goes to the -never locked because there isn't a lock- gun cupboard? I concur that the premonition MAY be pushing it a bit, however, I can recount an incident during which the argument between Jeremy and Nevill became so heated, that after Jeremy stormed out, Nevill broke down in tears. The person who witnessed it -a great friend of both Nevill and June- cried when he told me.

So you think that Nevill knew somehow that Jeremy would shoot him and he did nothing about it? How would he know that Jeremy would shoot him in the first place?

He could have got a new cabinet for a start - which he could lock.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on September 16, 2017, 12:37:PM




No. You're wrong !  ( I'm doing a Jane )

That's quite funny.  :))
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on September 16, 2017, 12:41:PM
Was this John Seward Jane?

No Steve, but John was one of the trio. Nevill, John and my neighbour. It's a very curious coincidence that he and Nevill were the sort of men who always had a twinkle in their eye. They were flirty in the nicest and most inoffensive way, yet both were married to rather formal and rigid women, both ardent church goers with very little appreciation of their respective husbands' boyish sense of humour.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on September 16, 2017, 12:41:PM
So you think that Nevill knew somehow that Jeremy would shoot him and he did nothing about it? How would he know that Jeremy would shoot him in the first place?

He could have got a new cabinet for a start - which he could lock.
Well the office itself was quite new and I suppose he hadn't got round to a lock for the gun cupboard. He had asked Barbara to change the lock on the safe though.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on September 16, 2017, 12:42:PM
I just don't believe that Nevill foresaw his own death.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Jane on September 16, 2017, 12:43:PM




No. You're wrong !  ( I'm doing a Jane )

Well, I had a 50% chance of being right, didn't I? ;D
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on September 16, 2017, 06:11:PM
I think members should watch this again. Though containing some inaccuracies the gist of it is heartbreaking.

Its more or less satire if you know this case well.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 16, 2017, 07:18:PM
 Anyone who's taken in by it is an utter fool,but--------------if it fits/suits their own agenda,so be it.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on September 17, 2017, 10:52:AM
Anyone who's taken in by it is an utter fool,but--------------if it fits/suits their own agenda,so be it.

Just like anyone believing that the CT ever talked to Julie's husband.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 17, 2017, 11:03:AM
Just like anyone believing that the CT ever talked to Julie's husband.





You'll end up with egg on your face-----I can promise you that ! Nothing to do with the CT !
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on September 17, 2017, 11:34:AM

You'll end up with egg on your face-----I can promise you that! Nothing to do with the CT !

Yesterday you said it was someone from the CT, now you're saying it's nothing to do with the CT?

The information is from a poster who's involved with the CT--------he's done a lot of research over the years and I'm sure he'd furnish the information if you contacted him.


 Not me with egg on my face - one day and you've changed what you initially said. Shouldn't listen to gossip Lookout. Julie's husband is hardly likely to talk to someone from the CT or some person that contacts them out of the blue. It's rubbish.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 17, 2017, 11:46:AM
Yesterday you said it was someone from the CT, now you're saying it's nothing to do with the CT?


 Not me with egg on my face - one day and you've changed what you initially said. Shouldn't listen to gossip Lookout. Julie's husband is hardly likely to talk to someone from the CT or some person that contacts them out of the blue. It's rubbish.





Involved,but independent. Everything to you is rubbish.Well let me tell you this,your posts will end up in the garbage-------happy posting.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on September 17, 2017, 11:56:AM




Involved,but independent. Everything to you is rubbish.Well let me tell you this,your posts will end up in the garbage-------happy posting.

Getting personal now Lookout? Must have hit another chord!  ;D ;D ;D Anyone who believes that Julie's husband would confide in a complete stranger involved with the CT, is naive to say the least!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 17, 2017, 12:08:PM
Getting personal now Lookout? Must have hit another chord!  ;D ;D ;D Anyone who believes that Julie's husband would confide in a complete stranger involved with the CT, is naive to say the least!





Your posts are personal too,but done in a subtle sneaky sort of a way with plenty of laughs to cover up the fact that what you post is meant.
How many times do  have to tell you that although this person supports the CT,he's completely independent of them when he does his investigating.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on September 17, 2017, 06:27:PM




Your posts are personal too,but done in a subtle sneaky sort of a way with plenty of laughs to cover up the fact that what you post is meant.
How many times do  have to tell you that although this person supports the CT,he's completely independent of them when he does his investigating.

No, not sneaky, I just wouldn't bother busting a blood vessel debating with anyone here  ;).

As many times as you like - it STILL idle gossip!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 17, 2017, 07:21:PM
No, not sneaky, I just wouldn't bother busting a blood vessel debating with anyone here  ;).

As many times as you like - it STILL idle gossip!





Says/hopes you. I'm so glad I'm not a pessimist.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on September 17, 2017, 11:57:PM




Says/hopes you. I'm so glad I'm not a pessimist.

I don't need to hope - I know it's billhooks!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 18, 2017, 09:01:AM
I don't need to hope - I know it's billhooks!






No explanation as to how you know,then ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on September 18, 2017, 09:09:AM





No explanation as to how you know,then ?

Just told you, there is no way that Julie's husband would discuss such things with a complete stranger.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 18, 2017, 09:41:AM
Just told you, there is no way that Julie's husband would discuss such things with a complete stranger.





Wrong.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on September 18, 2017, 09:55:AM




Wrong.

You believe what you like Lookout but it didn't happen.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on September 18, 2017, 10:08:AM
You believe what you like Lookout but it didn't happen.





It did too.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on September 18, 2017, 11:30:AM




It did too.

 ::)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on October 04, 2017, 09:29:AM
I'd like to go back to the neck wound, specifically the second one. I cant remember where I've seen this discussed on here, so I'll do it here.

Re the smear on the second wound, the fatal one, how did it get there? It's been said that it could have been made by a thumb, but whose thumb? Not Sheilas obviously. Jeremy's thumb? Why would he have touched the wound and smeared the blood? It must have happened straight after the shot because there is a flow of blood superimposed over the smear. Anyone touching that wound must have done so within a nano-second of the shot.

Someone suggested that the smear was made by the gun. I find that feasible, but was there any blood on the end of the rifle? Was there enough blood on the end of the moderator to account for it?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on October 04, 2017, 10:00:AM
From the appeal document:

Quote
The rifle bore blood smearing on the barrel in the region of the fore-sight and around the mechanism and there were splashes of blood to the left side of the weapon.

Could that blood in the region of the fore-sight have come from the second wound? That would mean that the silencer was not on the rifle when Sheila was shot though.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on October 04, 2017, 10:26:AM
I've always thought that the second shot came in quick succession after the first because of the initial shock/trauma of the first one the second which involved the main vein hadn't pumped the amount of blood which you'd expect from the jugular vein.
 Although the first one hit the carotid artery and not a vein,the blood would have gathered rather than pumped,as shown in her neck swelling,so I think that Sheila was semi-conscious or unconcsious after the first,allowing the sensitive setting on the rifle to repeat the second fatal shot.
I would have expected to have seen a bloodbath which indicates to me that her death was instant, combining the first shot with the second,i.e two shots in succession.
Sheila would not have been mobile after the first shot IMHO.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on October 04, 2017, 10:34:AM
I've always thought that the second shot came in quick succession after the first because of the initial shock/trauma of the first one the second which involved the main vein hadn't pumped the amount of blood which you'd expect from the jugular vein.
 Although the first one hit the carotid artery and not a vein,the blood would have gathered rather than pumped,as shown in her neck swelling,so I think that Sheila was semi-conscious or unconcsious after the first,allowing the sensitive setting on the rifle to repeat the second fatal shot.
I would have expected to have seen a bloodbath which indicates to me that her death was instant, combining the first shot with the second,i.e two shots in succession.
Sheila would not have been mobile after the first shot IMHO.

Before the first shot she must have been sitting up and leaning slightly to her right  because the blood went down her nightdress. That might not have been for very long, but long enough to cause that blood staining.

It's interesting that there's not an obvious trail of blood leading from the first wound to the blood on her nightdress, but there is a very subtle hint of it.

For the second shot I think she must have been lying down with her head flat on the floor tilted to the right because of the cabinet, and slightly back. The blood from that wound went down the right side of her neck. The trail of blood from the first wound ended up going in the same direction, which puzzles me a bit. Why was she still bleeding from the first shot after she was dead, and what happened to the trail of blood going from the wound to her nightdress?

Re the smear on the second wound, how do you think that got there?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on October 04, 2017, 11:06:AM
Before the first shot she must have been sitting up and leaning slightly to her right  because the blood went down her nightdress. That might not have been for very long, but long enough to cause that blood staining.

It's interesting that there's not an obvious trail of blood leading from the first wound to the blood on her nightdress, but there is a very subtle hint of it.

For the second shot I think she must have been lying down with her head flat on the floor tilted to the right because of the cabinet, and slightly back. The blood from that wound went down the right side of her neck. The trail of blood from the first wound ended up going in the same direction, which puzzles me a bit. Why was she still bleeding from the first shot after she was dead, and what happened to the trail of blood going from the wound to her nightdress?

Re the smear on the second wound, how do you think that got there?





The reason that blood would have been seen from the first shot is that both the carotid artery and the jugular vein are " inter-connected " . Both " orifices " would have contained a collection of blood which would have still flowed to some extent but not pumped. 

The smear could possibly have been the gun,or because Sheila hadn't been deceased for any length of time, a human touch in that area to feel for a pulse ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on October 04, 2017, 11:16:AM




The reason that blood would have been seen from the first shot is that both the carotid artery and the jugular vein are " inter-connected " . Both " orifices " would have contained a collection of blood which would have still flowed to some extent but not pumped. 

The smear could possibly have been the gun,or because Sheila hadn't been deceased for any length of time, a human touch in that area to feel for a pulse ?

I'm not sure about that. After the smear was made, the blood continued to run down the side of her neck. How long would that blood have continued to run after she was dead?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on October 04, 2017, 11:43:AM
I'm not sure about that. After the smear was made, the blood continued to run down the side of her neck. How long would that blood have continued to run after she was dead?





 " If moved " in any way,particularly on the side of injuries,blood will run where it has collected,after death,but won't obviously pump out because that mechanism would have failed through death.

I also think that the " noise " the raid team heard upstairs could well have been a cough/choke from Sheila as blood poured down her throat.Noises can be made involuntary after death and this could have prompted someone to go into the bedroom from where the sound came and feel the carotid pulse ( neck ) for any sign of life.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on October 04, 2017, 11:47:AM




 " If moved " in any way,particularly on the side of injuries,blood will run where it has collected,after death,but won't obviously pump out because that mechanism would have failed through death.

I also think that the " noise " the raid team heard upstairs could well have been a cough/choke from Sheila as blood poured down her throat.Noises can be made involuntary after death and this could have prompted someone to go into the bedroom from where the sound came and feel the carotid pulse ( neck ) for any sign of life.

But there's no sign that the blood collected on her neck - the blood is running straight from the wound (other than the blood smear).

Could the noise which was heard have been the dog which was under the bed?

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on October 04, 2017, 11:58:AM




 " If moved " in any way,particularly on the side of injuries,blood will run where it has collected,after death,but won't obviously pump out because that mechanism would have failed through death.

I also think that the " noise " the raid team heard upstairs could well have been a cough/choke from Sheila as blood poured down her throat.Noises can be made involuntary after death and this could have prompted someone to go into the bedroom from where the sound came and feel the carotid pulse ( neck ) for any sign of life.

But there's no sign that the blood collected on her neck - the blood is running straight from the wound (other than the blood smear).

Could the noise which was heard have been the dog which was under the bed?





Of course,the dog could have been whimpering or shuffling around. It could even have licked Sheila's neck where the smudge was as dogs smell wounds and distress.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on October 08, 2017, 10:57:AM
The diagram of Sheila's nightdress shows and describes the large patch of blood on the back of it. If this blood has got there from her neck wound,why isn't it showing the" runs" from that area down to the patch if she'd been sitting ? Also it mentions clots,which don't travel as quickly as blood so where did the clots come from if she'd been lying down at that stage ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on October 08, 2017, 11:05:AM
The diagram of Sheila's nightdress shows and describes the large patch of blood on the back of it. If this blood has got there from her neck wound,why isn't it showing the" runs" from that area down to the patch if she'd been sitting ? Also it mentions clots,which don't travel as quickly as blood so where did the clots come from if she'd been lying down at that stage ?

I'm also puzzled by this blood on the back of Sheila's nightdress. If she was sitting up when she was shot I would expect the blood to go down the front of her nightdress, which it did. The blood continued to run sideways down the right side of her neck for a while after she was lying down, but how it soaked the back of the nightdress is a mystery.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on October 08, 2017, 11:12:AM
I'm also puzzled by this blood on the back of Sheila's nightdress. If she was sitting up when she was shot I would expect the blood to go down the front of her nightdress, which it did. The blood continued to run sideways down the right side of her neck for a while after she was lying down, but how it soaked the back of the nightdress is a mystery.

Venezis said that Sheila was either sitting up or PARTIALLY sitting up. The way the blood travelled down her night dress I believe the latter to be more likely.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on October 08, 2017, 11:12:AM
I'm also puzzled by this blood on the back of Sheila's nightdress. If she was sitting up when she was shot I would expect the blood to go down the front of her nightdress, which it did. The blood continued to run sideways down the right side of her neck for a while after she was lying down, but how it soaked the back of the nightdress is a mystery.
[/quote





It's the clots that puzzle me,as it's usual for that to happen where a wound is,but so far as we're aware there was no wound in the area where the clots were reported to have been.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on October 08, 2017, 11:13:AM
Venezis said that Sheila was either sitting up or PARTIALLY sitting up. The way the blood travelled down her night dress I believe the latter to be more likely.

Yes, and partially leaning to the right, which makes sense. How did it get on the back though?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on October 08, 2017, 11:14:AM
Lookout, the clots could just mean that the blood pooled rather than continued to spread, which would make sense.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on October 08, 2017, 11:19:AM
Lookout, the clots could just mean that the blood pooled rather than continued to spread, which would make sense.





There's a marked difference in pooled blood and clots Kaldin.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on October 08, 2017, 11:20:AM




There's a marked difference in pooled blood and clots Kaldin.

Yes, but when it began to dry it might take the form of clots.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on October 08, 2017, 11:21:AM
How could Sheila have been partially sitting up? She could if she had been leaning on the cabinet, but if she wasn't, she would have to have very strong stomach muscles.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on October 08, 2017, 11:38:AM
Yes, and partially leaning to the right, which makes sense. How did it get on the back though?

Trailed from her neck and under her arm.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on October 08, 2017, 11:42:AM
Trailed from her neck and under her arm.





Only if sitting up as liquid finds its own level and if she'd been lying flat the whole time the blood would only have pooled on the right of her neck and shoulder but wouldn't have ran down.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: guest2181 on October 08, 2017, 11:51:AM
Trailed from her neck and under her arm.

Do we think I/S means inside?

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4466;image)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on October 08, 2017, 11:58:AM
Then she must have been slightly leaning back for it to go on the back of her nightdress.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on October 08, 2017, 12:06:PM
Not sure what the I/S is but the KM is the Kastle-Meyers test is for colour,as in blood. I'll see if I can see any reference to the above,I/S.
I'd have said In-Situ,but it doesn't match anything.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Stephanie on October 11, 2017, 03:10:PM
He's not trying to get off on technicalities.  He's being KEPT IN on technicalities!

This is how I once thought re the SH case

Though you say you aren't familiar with the case, which is a shame
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on October 21, 2017, 09:00:AM
I'd like to just go back to this thread re Sheila's second neck wound. The smeared blood has been discussed a few times, and three possibilities have been put forward.

Someone put their thumb on the wound and smeared the blood.

Her head dropped forward momentarily and the blood smeared (I think I read that on the other forum).

The front sight of the gun moved slightly and caused the smears - this possibility means that the silencer was not on the gun at the time.

Which of those seems feasible, or are there any other possibilities? I'm interested in the third one, although I'm thinking that the smears would have been slightly lower down because of the position of the front sight, and the gun would have had to be slightly twisted for the front sight to smear the blood.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on October 21, 2017, 09:18:AM
Someone may have felt her neck for a pulse if it hadn't appeared that she'd been deceased at that point ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on October 21, 2017, 09:25:AM
Someone may have felt her neck for a pulse if it hadn't appeared that she'd been deceased at that point ?

I don't think they'd put their thumb right in the blood though. Is that where you feel for a pulse in the neck?

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on October 21, 2017, 09:29:AM
Someone put their thumb on the wound and smeared the blood.


Why would anyone do that?

Her head dropped forward momentarily and the blood smeared (I think I read that on the other forum).


Not possible. There were blobs of blood on her neck, they would have all been smudged if that happened.

The front sight of the gun moved slightly and caused the smears - this possibility means that the silencer was not on the gun at the time.


Looks that way to me.


Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on October 21, 2017, 09:31:AM
David, I agree that the second point is unlikely because the blood had been smeared to Sheila's left.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on October 21, 2017, 09:33:AM
In fact, the whole smudge seems to extend to both sides of the run of blood, or is some of it bruising?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on October 21, 2017, 09:34:AM
In fact, the whole smudge seems to extend to both sides of the run of blood, or is some of it bruising?

Vanezis describes them as blobs.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on October 21, 2017, 09:35:AM
I don't think they'd put their thumb right in the blood though. Is that where you feel for a pulse in the neck?






The thumb wouldn't purposely have gone into the area of blood as really,it couldn't be avoided. Yes it's the right area for a pulse and if it had been for that purpose and blood was on the thumb,you'd tend to smudge your thumb along to "wipe away " the residue.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on October 21, 2017, 09:37:AM
Vanezis describes them as blobs.

I mean there's an area which appears to be blood all around, excluding the blobs.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on October 21, 2017, 09:39:AM





The thumb wouldn't purposely have gone into the area of blood as really,it couldn't be avoided. Yes it's the right area for a pulse and if it had been for that purpose and blood was on the thumb,you'd tend to smudge your thumb along to "wipe away " the residue.

You mean they put their hand to her neck to feel for a pulse and the thumb happened to touch the running blood and smear it?

The blood has run on top of the smear so it was still running when that happened. I don't know how long she would have bled from a wound which was pretty much instantly fatal.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: David1819 on October 21, 2017, 10:03:AM
I mean there's an area which appears to be blood all around, excluding the blobs.

I don't understand. "area which appears to be blood all around" because its exactly that.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on October 21, 2017, 10:04:AM
You mean they put their hand to her neck to feel for a pulse and the thumb happened to touch the running blood and smear it?

The blood has run on top of the smear so it was still running when that happened. I don't know how long she would have bled from a wound which was pretty much instantly fatal.






Sheila would have been dead,but if it was a thumb mark,it would indicate that she hadn't been dead for that long for someone to have bothered feeling for a pulse. Sheila wouldn't have bled for long and all you'd have seen would have been collected blood as opposed to it being pumped out.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on October 21, 2017, 10:34:AM
I don't understand. "area which appears to be blood all around" because its exactly that.

Yes, but why? I can understand the blood being smeared to Sheila's left because something smeared it, but why is there a blood stain to her right extending beyond the run of blood?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Kaldin on October 21, 2017, 10:38:AM





Sheila would have been dead,but if it was a thumb mark,it would indicate that she hadn't been dead for that long for someone to have bothered feeling for a pulse. Sheila wouldn't have bled for long and all you'd have seen would have been collected blood as opposed to it being pumped out.

So if it was a thumb mark, someone tested for a pulse within seconds of the fatal shot. The blood then continued to run in a stream over the top of the smear.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on October 21, 2017, 10:47:AM
So if it was a thumb mark, someone tested for a pulse within seconds of the fatal shot. The blood then continued to run in a stream over the top of the smear.






It would have done,yes. Blood will continue to run.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Harry on June 29, 2018, 06:34:AM
It is claimed that after Sheila received the first shot, she managed to get blood from the resulting wound upon her arm at several places.  These drops of blood from her wound somehow formed streams upon her arm. 

In the position that Sheila would have originally been in after having received the first gunshot wound -  how would she have had to move her arm, in order for the drops of blood to land at the positions shown in the crime scene images?  Has anybody tried to replicate this movement with their own arm / neck?


(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4390;image)

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18728;image)

(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4392;image)

After the blood had dripped upon her arm (bearing in mind that this is supposed to have happened at all the places shown) - how did she keep her arm at an even level and avoid any arm rotation so that the blood drops nearly all travel in same direction on her lower arm / wrist?

Pathologists generally give explanations assuming that information given to them by the police is honest and accurate. In this case the police are involved in a cover up of the real truth, so a pathologist might come to wrong conclusions through having been mislead.

Bernard Knight said that Sheila could not have fallen back immediately after the first wound, because the blood running down her arms indicated that she had remained in a sitting position for a few minutes after the first shot.

But what if she had fallen back immediately and lay unconscious for a while before getting up again? Suppose she put her right hand to the wound straight after getting up and kept it there for a while as she made her way upstairs. That would answer the question as to why the blood trails on her arm are consistent with the arm remaining in the same position. There might be an absence of blood on the front of her dress because the blood ran down her right arm.

It's notable that the blobs at the end of the trails are higher up the arm than where the trails seem to originate. That proves that the hand must have been raised. It does not merely suggest that it might have been. The law of gravity doesn't allow for exceptions like rivers flowing up hills instead of down. Sheila's hand must have been raised while the blood was flowing "down" her wrist towards her elbow.

(https://i0.wp.com/scenephotographs.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/ms24.jpg?ssl=1&w=450)
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Harry on June 29, 2018, 06:49:AM
Pathologists generally give explanations assuming that information given to them by the police is honest and accurate. In this case the police are involved in a cover up of the real truth, so a pathologist might come to wrong conclusions through having been mislead.

Bernard Knight said that Sheila could not have fallen back immediately after the first wound, because the blood running down her arms indicated that she had remained in a sitting position for a few minutes after the first shot.

But what if she had fallen back immediately and lay unconscious for a while before getting up again? Suppose she put her right hand to the wound straight after getting up and kept it there for a while as she made her way upstairs. That would answer the question as to why the blood trails on her arm are consistent with the arm remaining in the same position. There might be an absence of blood on the front of her dress because the blood ran down her right arm.

It's notable that the blobs at the end of the trails are higher up the arm than where the trails seem to originate. That proves that the hand must have been raised. It does not merely suggest that it might have been. The law of gravity doesn't allow for exceptions like rivers flowing up hills instead of down. Sheila's hand must have been raised while the blood was flowing "down" her wrist towards her elbow.

(https://i0.wp.com/scenephotographs.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/ms24.jpg?ssl=1&w=450)



Peter Vanezis  said that a person with such an injury might be able to get up and move around. He had only one objection to that possibility, which was the lack of blood down the front of the nightdress.

Q. Can I ask you this: The non-
fatal wound - the lower one - you have told us lacerated the external jugular
vein; how freely would you expect that wound and how rapidly, would you expect
it to bleed?

A. It would start to bleed immediately. It is venous blood,
rather than arterial blood, so it would not be pumping blood out. The size of
the wound, which is fairly small, compared with some of the larger missiles, would
also tend to cause external signs of bleeding to occur that bit less fast, shall
we say, than if it was a larger wound, but then one would see the haemorrhage
tracking on the inside of the neck. There would be quite a big build up there,
as there was in the hemorrhage on that side of the neck.

Q. Looking at the amount of blood staining that you saw there and the wound that you
saw that accounted for it, are you able to give any view as to whether the victim
could, for instance, have got up between the two, walked around -

A. Sorry, are you finishing there?

Q. Yes, I will finish there for the moment?

A. Well, a wound like that, as I said,
has not hit any vital organ as such, although it has caused hemorrhage. There
is no reason why the person ...... that is why some people in fact: do get up and
walk around with such injuries, but quite clearly if one walks around with such
injuries, then one would see quite a lot of blood distributed or coming from that
wound, unless the person held the hand to the actual entry wound itself and tried
to stop the blood coming out.


Too much depends on one fact. The lack of blood down the front of the dress. There could be a rational explanation for that, but one which conflicts with the opinion that both shots were fired within 10 seconds

Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on June 29, 2018, 09:51:AM


Peter Vanezis  said that a person with such an injury might be able to get up and move around. He had only one objection to that possibility, which was the lack of blood down the front of the nightdress.

Q. Can I ask you this: The non-
fatal wound - the lower one - you have told us lacerated the external jugular
vein; how freely would you expect that wound and how rapidly, would you expect
it to bleed?

A. It would start to bleed immediately. It is venous blood,
rather than arterial blood, so it would not be pumping blood out. The size of
the wound, which is fairly small, compared with some of the larger missiles, would
also tend to cause external signs of bleeding to occur that bit less fast, shall
we say, than if it was a larger wound, but then one would see the haemorrhage
tracking on the inside of the neck. There would be quite a big build up there,
as there was in the hemorrhage on that side of the neck.

Q. Looking at the amount of blood staining that you saw there and the wound that you
saw that accounted for it, are you able to give any view as to whether the victim
could, for instance, have got up between the two, walked around -

A. Sorry, are you finishing there?

Q. Yes, I will finish there for the moment?

A. Well, a wound like that, as I said,
has not hit any vital organ as such, although it has caused hemorrhage. There
is no reason why the person ...... that is why some people in fact: do get up and
walk around with such injuries, but quite clearly if one walks around with such
injuries, then one would see quite a lot of blood distributed or coming from that
wound, unless the person held the hand to the actual entry wound itself and tried
to stop the blood coming out.


Too much depends on one fact. The lack of blood down the front of the dress. There could be a rational explanation for that, but one which conflicts with the opinion that both shots were fired within 10 seconds

But in over 30 years, no one has thought of one.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on June 29, 2018, 10:10:AM
That Sheila hadn't had her nightdress on before the 2nd shot ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on June 29, 2018, 11:26:AM
That Sheila hadn't had her nightdress on before the 2nd shot ?

That's more than a convenient theory lookout but the blood would have ran down her chest instead. Unless she had a shower between shots?  ;D
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on June 29, 2018, 11:34:AM
That's more than a convenient theory lookout but the blood would have ran down her chest instead. Unless she had a shower between shots?  ;D






No,not really a convenient theory,more a logical one considering that she had no drawers on too and there'd been no mention of blood down her body ? Like there was no mention of her being anything but " clean " ?

Then the possibility of her having showered would be all the more believable before putting on her nightdress. Also another reason for the showerhead to have been on the floor of the bathroom.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on June 29, 2018, 11:36:AM
Which again would have accounted for the blood spots around her body ( and not June's as I'd once said )
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on June 29, 2018, 11:37:AM





No,not really a convenient theory,more a logical one considering that she had no drawers on too and there'd been no mention of blood down her body ? Like there was no mention of her being anything but " clean " ?

Then the possibility of her having showered would be all the more believable before putting on her nightdress. Also another reason for the showerhead to have been on the floor of the bathroom.

Between shots?  ;D
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on June 29, 2018, 11:55:AM
Between shots?  ;D






Yes,if Vanezis had stated that Sheila could have got up and walked around after the first shot,there's no reason that she couldn't have thrown on a nightdress after a hurried spray.

That's if Vanezis was correct in saying that--------but I would have disputed it. Alternatively,possibly after previously showering before that second shot with nightdress at the ready she'd have managed to throw her nightdress on-----with difficulty because I believe it had to be pulled down on account of her probably struggling to put it on properly before the following shot.


My other thought has been that both shots were simultaneous-------with no " walking about " and that the spots of blood had belonged to June.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on June 29, 2018, 12:36:PM

Yes,if Vanezis had stated that Sheila could have got up and walked around after the first shot,there's no reason that she couldn't have thrown on a nightdress after a hurried spray.

That's if Vanezis was correct in saying that--------but I would have disputed it. Alternatively,possibly after previously showering before that second shot with nightdress at the ready she'd have managed to throw her nightdress on-----with difficulty because I believe it had to be pulled down on account of her probably struggling to put it on properly before the following shot.


My other thought has been that both shots were simultaneous-------with no " walking about " and that the spots of blood had belonged to June.

I think this is tantamount to flogging a dead horse.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on June 29, 2018, 12:57:PM
I think this is tantamount to flogging a dead horse.






I don't think that " flogging a dead horse " comes into the latest findings. You're describing the snail-like tactics of the CCRC I think and the judicial system in general.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on June 29, 2018, 01:52:PM





I don't think that " flogging a dead horse " comes into the latest findings. You're describing the snail-like tactics of the CCRC I think and the judicial system in general.

Lookout, I really don't want to be rude or have the usual back and forth over this BUT the suggestion that after being shot in the throat, Sheila decided to take a shower it's just a non-starter. When Venezis said that Sheila might have been able to stand, he didn't mean wander around the house acting as though nothing had happened. Venezis said it was 'possible' not that it was plausible.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on June 29, 2018, 01:54:PM
Lookout, I really don't want to be rude or have the usual back and forth over this BUT the suggestion that after being shot in the throat, Sheila decided to take a shower it's just a non-starter. When Venezis said that Sheila might have been able to stand, he didn't mean wander around the house acting as though nothing had happened. Venezis said it was 'possible' not that it was plausible.






Stand for enough time to put her nightdress on for instance.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on June 29, 2018, 02:04:PM





Stand for enough time to put her nightdress on for instance.

How would that stop blood running down her front?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on June 29, 2018, 03:24:PM
Lookout, I really don't want to be rude or have the usual back and forth over this BUT the suggestion that after being shot in the throat, Sheila decided to take a shower it's just a non-starter. When Venezis said that Sheila might have been able to stand, he didn't mean wander around the house acting as though nothing had happened. Venezis said it was 'possible' not that it was plausible.

With respect the defence expert, stated that Sheila might have been able to move around upright for a period up to half an hour after sustaining the first shot! Now, this is extraordinary considering the suggestion that Sheila was shot twice whilst laying down on the bedroom floor to allow somebody to shoot her dead without putting up any struggle whatsoever! The truth, however, was that Sheila was originally involved in a struggle with another person downstairs in the kitchen, which resulted in the bloody marks which are present on her right forearm and the top part of her right hand and her wrist - these marks were caused at some point in between the inflicting of the first non fatal shot, and the second fatal shot!

For my part, I believe that after first being shot downstairs in the kitchen, Sheila's body went into a collapsed state which caused the firearms officers in the kitchen to believe that she was dead. For this reason, I do not think Sheila had been moving around for a continuous period lasting half an hour as the defence expert said. I believe she regained consciousness after about half an hour or so, got to her feet and dragged herself upstairs to her parents bedroom! I should think Sheila could have made the journey from the kitchen downstairs in her wounded state, to the bedroom upstairs where she collapsed on top of the bed, in a couple of minutes, no longer than that. The initial bullet entry wound to her neck would have coagulated sufficiently enough to prevent much of the blood pouring out of the neck wound, albeit a small amount did which left a vertically inclined flow of blood upon her neck. She collapsed back into a state of unconscious once she fell onto the bed...

All of this happened before Stan Jones and Mick Clark visited the main bedroom scene at which time the bodies of June Bamber and Sheila Caffell' were laid side by side on top of the bed in the main bedroomed with a rifle laid on the bed in-between both bodies and Sheila had a Bible on top of her chest!

At least that what Stan Jones and Mick Clark told Ann Eaton and the other relatives that morning who were all gathered at Jeremy's cottage (9 Head Street, Goldhanger, Tolleshunt D'Arcy, Essex), Sheila had been shot once by that stage!

Now, I cannot say that June Bambers body was laid on the bed next to Sheila's body, but what I do say is that at some time prior Sheila receiving the second fatal shot under the chin, that her was photographed laid on top of the bed, slightly toward the left hand side of the bed (as viewed from the foot of the bed), with her head resting on the left hand pillow, with the parents teddy bear sat perched on Sheila's left (the right hand side of her body when viewed from the foot of the bed)! She was wearing a light blue nightdress which had its hem pulled up to the top of her thighs exposing her genitilia. There was no rifle with her body, or on the bed! There wasn't a Bible on her chest in this particular photograph. She only had one bullet wound to her neck, which had a very fient vertical flow of dried blood which ran down toward the collar of the nightdress she was wearing! There was 'no bloodied finger marks' present on the front lower part of her nightdress at that stage! Furthermore, there was no triangular shaped bloodstains in the region of her right shoulder / armpit on her nightdress at this time...

This photograph was clearly taken prior to Sheila Caffell's body being moved off the bed, onto the bedroom floor where she eventually received the second shot that killed her got inflicted!

By the time DI Ron Cook arrived at the scene (9.20am), and visited the main bedroom, Sheila's body was already laid out in the bedroom floor, in possession of the rifle, and she had already been shot on the second occasion!

Stan Jones and Mick Clark visited the main bedroom after 9.05am, and only remained present inside the main bedroom for a few minutes - by 9.10am, they were leaving the main bedroom to go with Jeremy to his cottage to take a witness statement from him...

Sheila received the second shot which killed her, somewhere in-between Jones and Clark seeing Sheila and Junes bodies laid out on top of the bed, with a rifle in-between their bodies and a Bible resting on top of Sheila's chest, and Ron Cook entering the main bedroom after 9.20am and finding June Bambers body on the bedroom floor on one side of the bed, and Sheila Caffell's body in the floor on the other side of the bed!

Sheila Caffell was killed after her body was lifted from the bed and placed on the bedroom floor and the rifle was brought to her body by police! This happened after Jones and Clark left the main bedroom scene and prior to Ron Cooks arrival there!

Either, Sheila shot and killed herself by way of that second shot, or the police are responsible for her death!

Her death had nothing whatsoever to do with Jeremy Bamber, Mathew mcDonald, any hitman, the police know the exact circumstances surrounding Sheila's death, they chose to call her death a suicide rather than take the criticism which would have come their way because of the fact that they conducted 'informatives' using a loaded rifle, the police are responsible for her death, nobody else! The only saving grace about her death was that she wouldn't have known anything at the time she was shot on the second occasion!

I am 100% certain, that DC Henderson (DHQ SOCO) and DC Oakey (DHQ SOCO) took the crucial crime scene photographs of Sheila's body on the bed at a time when she had only been shot just the once! They also took a video of the actual crime scene with the bodies in the original positions from around 8.45am, onward (after Sheila's body had gone AWOL from the kitchen)..

All the other police at the scene have gone out of their way to hide the involvement of Henderson and Oakey at the scene at around the time senior officers performed 'informatives', where bodies and items of evidential value were moved and restated prior to the second team of SOCO were allowed to enter the farmhouse and record the re-stage crime scene and present 'that' as though it was how everything had been originally found when the firearm officers first entered the farmhouse!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Harry on July 01, 2018, 05:02:AM
With respect the defence expert, stated that Sheila might have been able to move around upright for a period up to half an hour after sustaining the first shot! Now, this is extraordinary considering the suggestion that Sheila was shot twice whilst laying down on the bedroom floor to allow somebody to shoot her dead without putting up any struggle whatsoever! The truth, however, was that Sheila was originally involved in a struggle with another person downstairs in the kitchen, which resulted in the bloody marks which are present on her right forearm and the top part of her right hand and her wrist - these marks were caused at some point in between the inflicting of the first non fatal shot, and the second fatal shot!

For my part, I believe that after first being shot downstairs in the kitchen, Sheila's body went into a collapsed state which caused the firearms officers in the kitchen to believe that she was dead. For this reason, I do not think Sheila had been moving around for a continuous period lasting half an hour as the defence expert said. I believe she regained consciousness after about half an hour or so, got to her feet and dragged herself upstairs to her parents bedroom! I should think Sheila could have made the journey from the kitchen downstairs in her wounded state, to the bedroom upstairs where she collapsed on top of the bed, in a couple of minutes, no longer than that. The initial bullet entry wound to her neck would have coagulated sufficiently enough to prevent much of the blood pouring out of the neck wound, albeit a small amount did which left a vertically inclined flow of blood upon her neck. She collapsed back into a state of unconscious once she fell onto the bed...

All of this happened before Stan Jones and Mick Clark visited the main bedroom scene at which time the bodies of June Bamber and Sheila Caffell' were laid side by side on top of the bed in the main bedroomed with a rifle laid on the bed in-between both bodies and Sheila had a Bible on top of her chest!

At least that what Stan Jones and Mick Clark told Ann Eaton and the other relatives that morning who were all gathered at Jeremy's cottage (9 Head Street, Goldhanger, Tolleshunt D'Arcy, Essex), Sheila had been shot once by that stage!

Now, I cannot say that June Bambers body was laid on the bed next to Sheila's body, but what I do say is that at some time prior Sheila receiving the second fatal shot under the chin, that her was photographed laid on top of the bed, slightly toward the left hand side of the bed (as viewed from the foot of the bed), with her head resting on the left hand pillow, with the parents teddy bear sat perched on Sheila's left (the right hand side of her body when viewed from the foot of the bed)! She was wearing a light blue nightdress which had its hem pulled up to the top of her thighs exposing her genitilia. There was no rifle with her body, or on the bed! There wasn't a Bible on her chest in this particular photograph. She only had one bullet wound to her neck, which had a very fient vertical flow of dried blood which ran down toward the collar of the nightdress she was wearing! There was 'no bloodied finger marks' present on the front lower part of her nightdress at that stage! Furthermore, there was no triangular shaped bloodstains in the region of her right shoulder / armpit on her nightdress at this time...

This photograph was clearly taken prior to Sheila Caffell's body being moved off the bed, onto the bedroom floor where she eventually received the second shot that killed her got inflicted!

By the time DI Ron Cook arrived at the scene (9.20am), and visited the main bedroom, Sheila's body was already laid out in the bedroom floor, in possession of the rifle, and she had already been shot on the second occasion!

Stan Jones and Mick Clark visited the main bedroom after 9.05am, and only remained present inside the main bedroom for a few minutes - by 9.10am, they were leaving the main bedroom to go with Jeremy to his cottage to take a witness statement from him...

Sheila received the second shot which killed her, somewhere in-between Jones and Clark seeing Sheila and Junes bodies laid out on top of the bed, with a rifle in-between their bodies and a Bible resting on top of Sheila's chest, and Ron Cook entering the main bedroom after 9.20am and finding June Bambers body on the bedroom floor on one side of the bed, and Sheila Caffell's body in the floor on the other side of the bed!

Sheila Caffell was killed after her body was lifted from the bed and placed on the bedroom floor and the rifle was brought to her body by police! This happened after Jones and Clark left the main bedroom scene and prior to Ron Cooks arrival there!

Either, Sheila shot and killed herself by way of that second shot, or the police are responsible for her death!

Her death had nothing whatsoever to do with Jeremy Bamber, Mathew mcDonald, any hitman, the police know the exact circumstances surrounding Sheila's death, they chose to call her death a suicide rather than take the criticism which would have come their way because of the fact that they conducted 'informatives' using a loaded rifle, the police are responsible for her death, nobody else! The only saving grace about her death was that she wouldn't have known anything at the time she was shot on the second occasion!

I am 100% certain, that DC Henderson (DHQ SOCO) and DC Oakey (DHQ SOCO) took the crucial crime scene photographs of Sheila's body on the bed at a time when she had only been shot just the once! They also took a video of the actual crime scene with the bodies in the original positions from around 8.45am, onward (after Sheila's body had gone AWOL from the kitchen)..

All the other police at the scene have gone out of their way to hide the involvement of Henderson and Oakey at the scene at around the time senior officers performed 'informatives', where bodies and items of evidential value were moved and restated prior to the second team of SOCO were allowed to enter the farmhouse and record the re-stage crime scene and present 'that' as though it was how everything had been originally found when the firearm officers first entered the farmhouse!

I agree that Sheila was definitely shot a second time after Dr Craig pronounced her dead. Craig said he saw only one bullet wound at that stage and he said that the blood was dry. In the photographs we see two wounds and two blood trails still wet.

It's really not credible that Craig would have only seen one wound when there were two, because after the second shot there were two new wet blood trails, the lower one being a mirror stain from the upper which at first looks like a trail from the lower wound. The point is that if Craig had seen the two trails he would be sure to have seen the two wounds, because the trails lead the eye to the wounds, notwithstanding that the lower one is a mirror stain.

"Either, Sheila shot and killed herself by way of that second shot, or the police are responsible for her death!"


I believe in considering all possibilities, so unless there is some evidence which definitely rules it out, we should consider the possibility that Sheila shot herself a second time after Craig's examination. Suppose after being in a near death state, she regained consciousness a second time and found herself alone in the room with the Anschütz rifle still there. Realising the hopelessness of her situation, she gets off the bed and sits on the floor and shoots herself. The cops hear the shot and immediately rush in.

They find her with her head propped against the bedside cabinet and pull her along away from the cabinet and turn her head to the right. They do this before the blood started to spill from the sides of her mouth. The mirror stain was caused by her chin being forced down by the way her head was propped. If her head had been propped in such a way, she must have been moved before the blood started to flow from her mouth, otherwise the trails would have ran down the front and not to either side of her mouth.

DS Jones and DC Clarke saw the body before this incident which occurred shortly after they left. They described the scene to Ann Eaton at Goldhanger.

Regardless of whether the police shot Sheila accidentally or she shot herself, the description given to Ann Eaton was in all likelihood totally accurate, because Jones and Clarke were there and told Mrs Eaton what they saw. The usual crap which is talked about "mistakes" in communication with old crackling radios can't be used in this instance.

What probably happened before this second incident is that that Sheila had shot herself downstairs with Anthony Pargeter's bolt action rifle and was thought to be dead when the police broke in. She revived and went upstairs before the police did and entered the master bedroom. She took hold of the bible and lay down on the bed and held it open at a certain page with her her right palm.

If she had got upstairs before the police, they would not have followed her immediately, because they knew there was a rifle up there which had been seen leaning at the boxroom window by the police outside. When they did eventually reach the master bedroom what they saw was Sheila lying on the bed apparently dead with a bible on her chest. 

This is at any rate a theory based upon the evidence instead of repeatedly ignoring it like some halfwit afraid of the truth.

What Dr Craig said about there being only one bullet wound when he saw Sheila's body was true. What Stan Jones told Ann Eaton about Sheila being on the bed was true.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Harry on July 01, 2018, 05:37:AM

Some people have asked the question, why would the police want to get Sheila's body off the bed and stage manage it on the floor to make it look like she shot herself in that position. The most likely explanation is that they wanted to cover up the truth about Sheila taking a walk after shooting herself downstairs.

If Sheila was photographed on the bed, it would be apparent to an expert that she could not have shot herself in that position, so the cops would have to come clean about what happened downstairs.

They may have staged her suicide on the floor to more or less replicate the position they found her in downstairs. Carrying her body back downstairs was out of the question, so they just did the next best thing, intending to say that reports of her body being found downstairs were mistaken. But the gun went off.

If the above happened both the cops and Dr Craig would have a powerful motive for withholding the real truth. Indeed, either scenario gives them all a powerful motive to suppress the truth. 

Sheila either shot herself a second time or the police shot her while stage managing her body. If one of these can be eliminated then the other must be the truth.

"When you have eliminated the impossible, the remaining, however improbable, must be the truth."


Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 01, 2018, 08:42:AM
Good posts Harry. Whatever may have happened I'm steadfast in my mind that Jeremy hadn't been responsible. The longer these files/documents remain withheld by EP the more they have to hide.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 01, 2018, 09:21:AM
I agree that Sheila was definitely shot a second time after Dr Craig pronounced her dead. Craig said he saw only one bullet wound at that stage and he said that the blood was dry. In the photographs we see two wounds and two blood trails still wet.

It's really not credible that Craig would have only seen one wound when there were two, because after the second shot there were two new wet blood trails, the lower one being a mirror stain from the upper which at first looks like a trail from the lower wound. The point is that if Craig had seen the two trails he would be sure to have seen the two wounds, because the trails lead the eye to the wounds, notwithstanding that the lower one is a mirror stain.

"Either, Sheila shot and killed herself by way of that second shot, or the police are responsible for her death!"


I believe in considering all possibilities, so unless there is some evidence which definitely rules it out, we should consider the possibility that Sheila shot herself a second time after Craig's examination. Suppose after being in a near death state, she regained consciousness a second time and found herself alone in the room with the Anschütz rifle still there. Realising the hopelessness of her situation, she gets off the bed and sits on the floor and shoots herself. The cops hear the shot and immediately rush in.

They find her with her head propped against the bedside cabinet and pull her along away from the cabinet and turn her head to the right. They do this before the blood started to spill from the sides of her mouth. The mirror stain was caused by her chin being forced down by the way her head was propped. If her head had been propped in such a way, she must have been moved before the blood started to flow from her mouth, otherwise the trails would have ran down the front and not to either side of her mouth.

DS Jones and DC Clarke saw the body before this incident which occurred shortly after they left. They described the scene to Ann Eaton at Goldhanger.

Regardless of whether the police shot Sheila accidentally or she shot herself, the description given to Ann Eaton was in all likelihood totally accurate, because Jones and Clarke were there and told Mrs Eaton what they saw. The usual crap which is talked about "mistakes" in communication with old crackling radios can't be used in this instance.

What probably happened before this second incident is that that Sheila had shot herself downstairs with Anthony Pargeter's bolt action rifle and was thought to be dead when the police broke in. She revived and went upstairs before the police did and entered the master bedroom. She took hold of the bible and lay down on the bed and held it open at a certain page with her her right palm.

If she had got upstairs before the police, they would not have followed her immediately, because they knew there was a rifle up there which had been seen leaning at the boxroom window by the police outside. When they did eventually reach the master bedroom what they saw was Sheila lying on the bed apparently dead with a bible on her chest. 

This is at any rate a theory based upon the evidence instead of repeatedly ignoring it like some halfwit afraid of the truth.

What Dr Craig said about there being only one bullet wound when he saw Sheila's body was true. What Stan Jones told Ann Eaton about Sheila being on the bed was true.

Sheila shot herself or was shot after Dr Craig pronounced her dead ? You never know.

Not sure why Dr Craig would say he saw dry blood on Sheila, if it was wet.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Adam on July 01, 2018, 09:26:AM
Some people have asked the question, why would the police want to get Sheila's body off the bed and stage manage it on the floor to make it look like she shot herself in that position. The most likely explanation is that they wanted to cover up the truth about Sheila taking a walk after shooting herself downstairs.

If Sheila was photographed on the bed, it would be apparent to an expert that she could not have shot herself in that position, so the cops would have to come clean about what happened downstairs.

They may have staged her suicide on the floor to more or less replicate the position they found her in downstairs. Carrying her body back downstairs was out of the question, so they just did the next best thing, intending to say that reports of her body being found downstairs were mistaken. But the gun went off.

If the above happened both the cops and Dr Craig would have a powerful motive for withholding the real truth. Indeed, either scenario gives them all a powerful motive to suppress the truth. 

Sheila either shot herself a second time or the police shot her while stage managing her body. If one of these can be eliminated then the other must be the truth.

"When you have eliminated the impossible, the remaining, however improbable, must be the truth."

Why would the police want to cover up that Sheila had walked upstairs ?

Why would it be apparent that Sheila could not have shot herself on a bed ? How would it become more apparent by moving Sheila onto the floor ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 01, 2018, 09:35:AM
Craig would only have seen dried blood if there had been only one shot when he "examined" Sheila. I use the word examined lightly because he only made a cursory glance at her and not a physical examination,i.e. pale, temperature,pulse, pupils of the eyes and heart to verify that a person is deceased.
All would or should have been noted there and then in order to certify death.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 01, 2018, 12:34:PM
Craig would only have seen dried blood if there had been only one shot when he "examined" Sheila. I use the word examined lightly because he only made a cursory glance at her and not a physical examination,i.e. pale, temperature,pulse, pupils of the eyes and heart to verify that a person is deceased.
All would or should have been noted there and then in order to certify death.

How many more times Lookout? He was only there to OFFICIALLY pronouce death! Not to do a full examination! And he saw dried blood because she had been dead for some time.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 01, 2018, 12:41:PM
How many more times Lookout? He was only there to OFFICIALLY pronouce death! Not to do a full examination! And he saw dried blood because she had been dead for some time.






Dried blood from the lesser of the two wounds,yes------because that's all he saw,one wound which wouldn't have pumped out blood because the bullet hit soft flesh and the jawbone. If he'd seen the second wound he'd have described arterial blood flowing----------but he didn't did he ? That's if he was doing his job properly ??!!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 01, 2018, 12:44:PM
The second shot when it came would naturally have disturbed the area of the first shot thus disturbing the plug of blood which would have been present after the first shot making the two shots visible.
How come it was the lower shot he'd described yet the one above it would have been the easiest to have seen ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 01, 2018, 12:48:PM
Two shots would have been highly visible if he'd used his eyes ?? At the point when Craig saw her her head would naturally have fallen backwards after the second shot with the force of the shooting and its close proximity.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 01, 2018, 01:33:PM
Thus making the one shot suicide/attempted suicide.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 01, 2018, 02:13:PM





Dried blood from the lesser of the two wounds,yes------because that's all he saw,one wound which wouldn't have pumped out blood because the bullet hit soft flesh and the jawbone. If he'd seen the second wound he'd have described arterial blood flowing----------but he didn't did he ? That's if he was doing his job properly ??!!


It's like you live in a vacuum Lookout. First of all, the first shot hit a major vein but never mind. Even if he had only seen one shot, that wouldn't stop him seeing blood 'flowing' - he didn't see that because it was dry. How do we know it was dry? Because we have a picture and Craig (and others) said so!

No he didn't describe arterial blood flowing - BECAUSE IT WASN'T!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 01, 2018, 02:49:PM
Blood wouldn't be that quick at drying coming from a main artery ( carotid ) it pumps out with the beat of the heart. Second shot which was missed.

Venous blood doesn't pump out and that accounted for the first and one and only shot that Craig saw.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 01, 2018, 04:19:PM
Blood wouldn't be that quick at drying coming from a main artery ( carotid ) it pumps out with the beat of the heart. Second shot which was missed.

Venous blood doesn't pump out and that accounted for the first and one and only shot that Craig saw.

Which is EXACTLY why Bamber is guilty!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 01, 2018, 04:24:PM
Which is EXACTLY why Bamber is guilty!





How so ? Just because the thin layer of blood ( which warmed against her cheeks ) dried quicker than the blood which exited the carotid artery  that Craig missed ? You've got to be kidding.You must be !
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 01, 2018, 04:27:PM
Also the room atmosphere had been conducive in assisting blood to dry quicker than if in a cold room.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 01, 2018, 04:58:PM
Miller wrote in his notes that the rifle was by Sheila's right hand side--------was that true too ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 01, 2018, 05:05:PM




How so ? Just because the thin layer of blood ( which warmed against her cheeks ) dried quicker than the blood which exited the carotid artery  that Craig missed ? You've got to be kidding.You must be !

I think it must be you who is joking Lookout (especially given your background). To suggest that Craig would miss blood running from wounds is just silly. The blood around her mouth was dried and cracking off - you're just trying to down play and it's not working!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 01, 2018, 05:53:PM

It's like you live in a vacuum Lookout. First of all, the first shot hit a major vein but never mind. Even if he had only seen one shot, that wouldn't stop him seeing blood 'flowing' - he didn't see that because it was dry. How do we know it was dry? Because we have a picture and Craig (and others) said so!

No he didn't describe arterial blood flowing - BECAUSE IT WASN'T!
The defence expert, stated that he would have expected Sheila to be able to keep moving and walking around for as much as half an hour after the first shot had been inflicted, which means that he was happy in the knowledge that there had been a so what lengthy dealt between the two shots received by Sheila...

More astonishingly, this half an hour of activity postulated by the defence expert, fits in snugly with the fact that Sheila's body was originally presumed dead downstairs in the kitchen, as per the contemporaneously recorded police radio message log contents, timed at 7.35am, 7.37am, 7.38am, 7.42am, and 7.45am, tow bodies found upon entry to the kitchen, the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female, a murder and a suicide being the accepted view all by 7.45am, and by 8.10am, only three bodies upstairs in the bedrooms!

There can be little doubt that there was a significant delay between the timing when the two shots were inflicted and received by Sheila Caffell - you o it have to look at and consider the angle at which the rifle would have to have been held at the time each of these two shots had been fired. The first, a shot across the neck consistent with Sheila being involved in a one on one struggle over possession of a rifle which almost certainly  took place downstairs in the kitchen, as detailed by the variously time police radio messages. In the case of the second shot, Sheila was almost certainly entirely unconscious, a fact consistent with someone bringing a loaded rifle to her body upstairs in her parents bedroom! Sheila did not activate the trigger of the rifle at the time her life was brought to its conclusion, someone else brought the rifle in question (the anshuzt rifle) to Sheila's body which had been placed on the main bedroom floor, there can be no doubt regarding who the people involved could have been! The police themselves brought the rifle from the first floor box room window, and placed it on top of Sheila's body, without anyone checking to see if the gun still had a bullet in its chamber! Remember, it was not until 11.10am, that PS Woodcock first checked and made the rifle safe...

Sheila was shot on the second occasion after Stan Jones and Mick Clark had both visited the main bedroom, (after 9.05am) and prior to the arrival of Ron Cook at the scene at 9.20am. the official time when Sheila sustained the fatal second shot was 9.13am, officially she died as a result of a freak accident as a result of senior officers who were performing 'infornatives' mishandled the loaded rifle when the muzzle of the barrel was positioned beneath Sheila's chin, and the fingers of her right hand were being manipulated against the trigger mechanism...

The fact that there were only three bodies upstairs by 8.10am, is a rather telling indictment of the location of Sheila Caffell's body at that stage, she was thought to have been the dead female found in the kitchen upon entry, her death spoken of at that time as a suicide, but if Sheila struggled with someone at the time the armed police tried to enter the kitchen, I think it wouldn't have been treated as a suicide at the death, had Sheila actually died from the initial shot to her neck, a shot which travelled across her neck horizontally, and a shot inflicted due to dynamic tension created between Sheila and one other person - had there not been such a struggle for control of the rifle which fired the original piece of badly fragmented bullet (the original PV/20), Sheila's death at that time would not have been called at all, she wouldn't have been shot at all by anybody!

For these reasons the police have to be responsible for the death by suicide which they called between 7.35am and 7.45am, involving Sheila Caffell..

The fact of the matter, is however, that she did not die as a result of that I first shot across her neck, no amount of anyone arguing that the bullet penetrated a majority artery, or that she would have eventuallydied in any event through loss of blood! Be said and the defence expert, were both in agreement that the first shot had not killed Sheila Caffell afterall, but that as soon as the second shot was received under the point of Sheila's chin, death would almost have followed on instantaneously! Furthermore, it would appear that Venezis and the defence expert, were in agreement that the non fatal shot  (PV/20) across the neck had been inflicted prior to the second fatal shot (PV/19). This throws up the rather unlikely image of the rifle suddenly changing angle by 90°, inbetween both shots, a feature which presents additional complications, since with Sheila being primarily left handed, and Jeremy Bamber being right handed, once each shot had been fired, one spent cartridge case would eject automatically from the right hand side of the gun, along with firearms discharge residue ( found to be present on the front lower part of Sheila Caffell's nightdress)...

A marked absence of any firearms discharge residue on the upper part of the same nightdress - indicating that at the time the initial shot (bullet PV/20) was fired the shooter must have been right handed sending the ejected spent cartridge case, and the firearms discharge residue away from the body of Sheila Caffell! If we look at the staged crime scene photographs the right hand side of the rifles vents and ejection port is pressed against Sheila's nightdress, with the fingers of her right hand resting generally in the vicinity of the trigger mechanism! The position of the firearm discharge residue on the front lower part of Sheila Caffell's nightdress, at odds with the position of the aforementioned ejection port and vents, indicating that Sheila had been holding the rifle on another occasion prior to the occasion when the fatal second shot was fired, when it was fired on  at least one other occasions, discounting the initial shot across her own neck because the rifle would have to have been held much higher up on Sheila's body so that the trajectory of the non fatal bullet (PV/20) could take its course horizontally across the neck...

I have been pondering how best this evidence could be presented as part of any new appeal, and I realise that the dimensions of the actual rifle will fall to be taken into account, particularly the exact measurement from the muzzle end of the rifles barrel, and the ejection port and the venting holes out of which is expelled the firearms discharge residue, the trigger mechanism...

Also pertinent, is the fact that according to Venezis, the gouge marks on Neville Bambers forearm were made by the bare barrel of the rifle, without a silencer fitted,

This contradiction regarding whether or not, Sheila Caffell's unique blood had got into the silencer at the time she was shot and killed, despite the silencer not being on the barrel of the gun when Neville Bamber was attacked, shot and killed downstairs in the kitchen, throws up questions also regarding how the red paint from the scratched kitchen aga surround got onto the silencer - if the silencer wasn't on the guns barrel when Neville Bamber was attacked downstairs in the kitchen, how could the silencer have scratched it?

Linked to this, is the timing of Neville Bambers death, against the timing of Sheila Caffell's death, since if there was no silencer fitted to the end of the guns barrel when Neville Bamber was being attacked and killed off, who in their right mind would attach a silencer just to shoot Sheila dead and staged her death as a suicide upstairs on the main bedroom floor, paying particular attention to remove the silencer after the shooter eventually killed off Sheila?

It just doesn't add up or make any sense, for the killer (let's put Jeremy in the frame for argument's sake) to put a silencer on the anshuzt rifles barrel, after he had attacked and killed off Neville Bamber in the kitchen, gouged his forearm with the bare barrel of the gun, then for whatever reason think it's necessary to attach a silencer so that he can shoot dead his sister upstairs on his parents bedroom floor, intending to stage her death there as a suicide, but then renovng the silencer again, and taking it to another part of the farmhouse and hide it in a box in a cupboard in the downstairs office?

The silencer evidence is dodgy by anybodies standards, along with the blood and the paint - itcwas the only way the authorities and the powers that be could stand any chance of ever convicting him at all...
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 01, 2018, 06:01:PM
I think it must be you who is joking Lookout (especially given your background). To suggest that Craig would miss blood running from wounds is just silly. The blood around her mouth was dried and cracking off - you're just trying to down play and it's not working!





And you're trying too hard-----it shows.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 01, 2018, 06:02:PM
Anyway,what's my background got to do with anything ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Steve_uk on July 01, 2018, 06:10:PM
Personally I have always been rather squeamish where blood is concerned. I suppose she means that as a nurse you were used to seeing it in your daily life.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 01, 2018, 06:41:PM




And you're trying too hard-----it shows.

No, I'm simply pointing you to evidence that we have on THIS forum - you have none just some wishful thinking.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 01, 2018, 06:43:PM
Personally I have always been rather squeamish where blood is concerned. I suppose she means that as a nurse you were used to seeing it in your daily life.

No, I meant that she should KNOW that Craig couldn't fail to notice flowing blood given that she used to be a nurse.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 01, 2018, 06:44:PM
Anyway,what's my background got to do with anything ?

You mention it often enough Lookout. You should know that what you are suggesting is HIGHLY unlikely.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 01, 2018, 07:06:PM
You mention it often enough Lookout. You should know that what you are suggesting is HIGHLY unlikely.






You're not making sense ?
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 01, 2018, 07:12:PM
I'm discussing the case so why should you start on being personal ? I've never been personal with you.I couldn't care less who you are or how you live your life-------nor your background. Why should it matter  about me and mine ? ::)

I suppose I come in handy to use as a diversion from an awkward part of the case !
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 01, 2018, 07:14:PM
Personally I have always been rather squeamish where blood is concerned. I suppose she means that as a nurse you were used to seeing it in your daily life.






Many a time Steve------and I know the difference between arterial and venous blood.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 01, 2018, 07:17:PM
No, I'm simply pointing you to evidence that we have on THIS forum - you have none just some wishful thinking.






What I know isn't on this forum ! I don't do " wishful thinking ".I don't need to ! Only the truth.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: lookout on July 01, 2018, 07:21:PM
No, I meant that she should KNOW that Craig couldn't fail to notice flowing blood given that she used to be a nurse.






You're contradicting yourself by once saying that NO blood was flowing as she'd been dead for ages.Now you're talking of " flowing blood ".Make up your mind--------it was either flowing or it wasn't and had dried.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 01, 2018, 11:41:PM
I think it must be you who is joking Lookout (especially given your background). To suggest that Craig would miss blood running from wounds is just silly. The blood around her mouth was dried and cracking off - you're just trying to down play and it's not working!

From photographs I have seen the blood running from the corners of Sheila's mouth were freely flowing, and dried and cracked! This has come about due to the police taking early photographs of the blood which was freshly leaking and flowing from Sheila's mouth (photographs which were taken by DC Henderson and DC Oakey during the practice of informative by senior officers between 9.00am and 10.00am). Henderson and Oakey were SOCO based at DHQ in Chelmsford. Much later, at around 11.00am, along came PC Bird from Witham SOCO by which time, Sheila's body had remained untouched since her death had been staged as a suicide on the say so of senior officers! It is not surprising therefore, that by the time PC Bird started to photograph the blood which had originally been leaking, and pouring from the corners of her mouth, had over an hour later, dried and cracked - the body was in the same position, staged death as a suicide with the rifle from the first floor box room window neatly in Sheila Caffell's possession! In particular, the fingers of her right hand resting on the trigger guard / mechanism, and the barrel of the rifle resting against the left hand side of her neck! The only problem with that was that the cops who staged her death scene as a suicide, did not know that Sheila Caffell was left handed! Something that Jeremy knew about, so it becomes even more bizarre, that if Jeremy had shot and killed his sister, why he should choose to stage her suicide as though she was right handed?

He wouldn't have set her body up to make it look like Sheila had shot herself using the fingers of her right hand to activate the trigger mechanism, if she was left handed - but because the police were somewhat in the dark regarding this, they goofed the crime scene! You only have to look at they way Sheila's fingers are resting on top of the ammunition magazine and the trigger guard mechanism to see that whoever had staged her second suicide of the day totally at odds with the fact that Sheila only ever handled rifles and shotguns left handed,  so as you can all see this raises a red flag...

The gun would almost certainly have been held the opposite way round if Sheila had somehow taken her own life, with the ammunition magazine upper most rather than at the bottom end of the gun, and had she been right handed!!!

You see...

The position of the gun on her body was actually the right way round for someone who was / is left handed, but hey fancy the prat positioning Sheila's trigger finger using the fingers of her right hand, instead of her left one!
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 01, 2018, 11:41:PM





You're contradicting yourself by once saying that NO blood was flowing as she'd been dead for ages.Now you're talking of " flowing blood ".Make up your mind--------it was either flowing or it wasn't and had dried.

There was no flowing blood - I'm criticising YOUR claim that there was 'flowing blood'.
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: Caroline on July 01, 2018, 11:43:PM
From photographs I have seen the blood running from the corners of Sheila's mouth were freely flowing, and dried and cracked! This has come about due to the police taking early photographs of the blood which was freshly leaking and flowing from Sheila's mouth (photographs which were taken by DC Henderson and DC Oakey during the practice of informative by senior officers between 9.00am and 10.00am. Henderson and Oakey were SOCO based at DHQ in Chelmsford. Much later, at around 11.00am, along came PC Bird from Witham SOCO by which time, Sheila's body had remained untouched since her death had been staged as a suicide on the say so of senior officers! It is not surprising therefore, that by the time PC Bird started to photograph the blood which had originally ally been leaking, and pouring from the corners of her mouth, had over an hour later, dried and cracked - the body was in the same position, staged death as a suicide with the rifle from the first floor box room window neatly in Sheila Caffell's possession! In particular, the fingers of her right hand resting on the trigger guard / mechanism, and the barrel of the rifle resting against the left hand side of her neck! The only problem with that was that the cops who staged her death scene as a suicide, did not know that Sheila Caffell was left handed! Something that Jeremy knew about, so it becomes even more bizarre, that if Jeremy had shot and killed his sister, why he should choose to stage her suicide as though she was right handed?

He wouldn't have set her body up to make it look like Sheila had shot herself using the fingers of her right hand to activate the trigger mechanism, if she was left handed - but because the police were somewhat in the dark regarding this, they goofed the crime scene! You only have to look at they way Sheila's fingers are resting on top of the ammunition magazine and the trigger guard mechanism to see that whoever had staged her second suicide of the day totally at odds with the fact that Sheila only ever handled rifles and shotguns left handed,  so as you can all see this raises a red flag...

The gun would almost certainly have been held the opposite way round if Sheila had somehow taken her own life, with the ammunition magazine upper most rather than at the bottom end of the gun, and had she been right handed!!!

You see...

The position of the gun on her body was actually the right way round for someone who was / is left handed, but hey fancy the prat positioning Sheila's trigger finger using the fingers of her right hand, instead of her left one!

Mike, with respect, you and I will never agree but if you have proof of your claims, then please post them and I may revise my thinking.  Until then .....
Title: Re: Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm
Post by: mike tesko on July 02, 2018, 01:02:AM
Mike, with respect, you and I will never agree but if you have proof of your claims, then please post them and I may revise my thinking.  Until then .....

I have all the proof I need to know what really did happen, and Jeremy supposedly shooting dead his sister who was left handed, staging her death as a suicide by setting the crime scene up using the fingers of Sheila Caffell's right hand is ludicrous - for a start, the anshuzt rifle supposedly used to not only kill Sheila, but the other four victims of the tragedy was a gun designed for a right handed person, not someone who was left handed like Sheila Caffell! For example, a right handed shooter using that rifle would not have the ejecting spent casings being forced against their extended left arm because the spent cartridge cases eject to the right of the weapon (away from the body of the victim). However, a left handed person shooting it will find that the ejecting spent cartridge cases are striking the extended right arm which is invariably used to steady the rifles barrel whilst in use!

Now,  I have a theory concerning how those marks which are present upon Sheila's right arm were created if you will please bear with me..

The ammunition magazine belonging to the .22 semi-automatic rifle could only hold a maximum of 10 live bullets. 15 or so (16 if we include the replacement whole bullet used in the substitution of the original piece of badly fragmented bullet which originally was exhibit PV/20, or 17 bullets if we count in the unrecovered bullet that was not recovered from one of the child victims)! The matter is somewhat convoluted, because originally there was only supposed to have been 24 shots fired, but 25 bullet cases recovered! But if there had originally been only 24 shots fired at the time of the tragedy, add to this the replacement whole bullet used in the substitution process, which brings the tally to 25 bullets + the piece of a badly fragmented PV/20, transforming the tall now to 26 bullets fired, but only 25 soentcartridge cases! Last but not least, then there is the  unrecovered bullet from one of the child victims, so in total 27 bullets, and only 25 spent cartridge cases!

Now, to save time, I can tell you that one of these 27 bullets, was test fired in the anshuzt rifle post the date of the tragedy, and was used in a substitution process involving the original piece of a badly fragmented PV/20 (the shot across Sheila's neck downstairs in the kitchen), with this in mind, now only 26 bullets, but still only 25 spent cartridge cases...

These anomalies arise because the police have not told the truth regarding the true circumstances surrounding the shootings of Sheila Caffell, and the dishonest tactic adopted to turn the tragedy into a one gun crime, when in fact at least two different rifles were used, in the shootings of Sheila Caffell! Whether you choose to believe it or not, is a matter for you, but rest assured that Sheila was shot once downstairs in the kitchen by one of these two rifles, and much later, she was shot again by the anshuzt rifle which at the time of her being shot across the neck in the kitchen, was a rifle which was resting against a first floor box room window as attested by Jeapes' and Brown..

Now, back to what I started saying about the police staging Sheila's suicide wrongly by setting her death scene as though she was right handed, when in fact she was left handed and let me say this, the handling of the semi-automatic anshuzt rifle by Sheila would have been fraught with problems, the least of which was the side of the rifle from which spent cartridge cases would be ejected accompanying each shot - the anshuzt rifle in question was designed for a right handed shooter, where normally the fingers of the shooters right hand would operate the trigger mechanism, and ejecting spent cartridge cases become expelled from the right hand side of the weapon, accompanied by firearms discharge residue which escapes via three venting holes on the right hand side of the gun! So, a right handed shooter firing a loaded anshuzt rifle filled with live bullets would support the barrel of the rifle with his or her left outstretched he'd hand, and the fingers of their right hand would activate the trigger mechanism!

But in Sheila's case, she was left handed, and the fingers of her left hand would operate the trigger mechanism, with her outstretched right arm /hand supporting the barrel of the gun!

It should not take you long to realise that any left handed person operating that rifle designed for a right handed shooter, will find that after or accompanying each shot fired that the ejecting spent cartridge cases, will effectively strike the left handed shooters outstretched right arm which is supporting the barrel of the weapon and potentially marking the relevant part of the shooters outstretched right arm, hand!

Consider the following as a fact...

Let's play along with the suggestion that these shootings were a one gun crime for how...

The rifle scamming ion magazine could only hold 10 live rounds, and let's for argument's sake say there was room for an element live round sat perched in the breach of the same weapon!

Well, let's also round off the total number of bullets fired during the tragedy to 25...

In those circumstances, if Sheila had been the shooter, she would have needed to load a minimum of 14 additional live rounds into the ammunition magazine of that rifle - in order to arrive at the stage where she needed to put more bullets into the guns ammunition magazine at least 10 or possibly 11 live rounds would have already been fired, at that / this stage, Sheila would have needed to load an additional 15 or 14 live rounds into the guns ammunition magazine, until the quota of 25, or 24 discharged shots had been dispensed with...

Now, pay attention please, since with the requirement to reload live rounds into the ammunition of the anshuzt rifle, chances are that Sheila would have literally got the blood of victims on the fingers of her hands. So that when she was loading the additional rounds into the guns ammunition magazine victims blood got transferred from her bloodstained fingers onto the live cartridges she was loading into the gun. Thereafter, with every bullet fired, the corresponding bloodstained spent cartridge case  which were being ejected struck that part of Sheila Caffell's right arm, causing the linear markings in what can only be described as streaks of Bloodstaining! These marks are the only proof that Jeremy Bamber needed to establish beyond reasonable doubt that his sister Sheila Caffell had fired that anshuzt rifle, marks which were caused in that part of her extended right arm she was using to support the barrel of the rifle at the time she was shooting at one or more of the other victims! This phenomena only occurrs when you have a left handed person firing a gun that was designed for a right handed shooter! Since, the ejecting and corresponding bullet cases are expelled from the ejection port on the right hand side of the weapon, forcing them to inadvertently strike the shooters outstretched right arm because the weapon in question was not suitable for use by a left handed shooter!

The ejecting bloodstained cartridges caused the marks on Sheila Caffell's right arm, it is a rather striking feature which in my view confirms that Sheila Caffell had fired the rifle at the time of the tragedy! Furthermore, these findings are capable of supporting the argument that at some time after the shooting of the other victims that Sheila must have either washed or wiped her bloodstained fingers, and moreover that with blood on her fingers at the time of the reloading of additional live rounds is it any wonder that only very low levels of lead deposit were detected from the handswabs?

Sheila had fired the gun, she handled bloodstained live rounds which were subsequently ejected from the weapon causing the markings in blood on her outstretched right arm, and her wrist...

It should be possible to carryout scientific tests to confirm the phenomena that I am alluding to, involving a left handed shooter, firing a loaded rifle designed for use by a right handed person!