Re: The murder of Jodi Jones

[sandra L]

The woman pushing the pram wouldn't have seen it, Gordo, because she walked up the Easthouses Road rather than Roan's Dyke path. The most obvious witness would have been the guy on the pushbike who originally said (from memory) he thought he'd cycled up the path around 5.30pm - again, the time frame was altered over time to make it between 5pm and 5.10pm. If he cycled up the path beginning at 5pm,he'd have been at the other end of the path by the time Ferris and Dickie turned onto it from the Newbattle Road. If he cycled up it at 5.10pm, he couldn't have failed to see and hear the bike. If (as he originally said) it was nearer to 5.30pm and the moped wasn't there, we can deduce that it was removed sometime between 5.15pm and 5.30pm.

According to their finalised statements, Dickie and Ferris got back to Dickie's house at "about half five" - it would have taken them literally a few minutes, on the moped (if it didn't cut out again, which, according to them, it didn't) to get there. So, based on the information we have, the bike was at the V point for somewhere around 10 - 12 minutes from 5.15pm. They did claim that they drove up and down Roan's Dyke Path "a couple of times" before heading to Dickie's house - there is no other information anywhere to support those claims.

But, if they did, it would mean the murderer was stripping Jodi and mutilating her body, completely unconcerned by a couple of youths in such close (and noisy) proximity. Since they suggested that one reason the moped might have been propped against the wall was because they were "tired out" from pushing it, why would they take it back down the path, risking it cutting out again and the possibility of having to push it even further to get it home?

[sandra L]

Thinking about the bike.
Does anyone know who owned it?

Apparently it was jointly owned by both youths who rode it that day.

Where it was kept?

Dickie's back garden

It’s movements that day? We know Dickie was picked up by Ferris so was Ferris running around on it that day

Apparently, it was in Dickie's back garden when Ferris arrived between 2 and 3pm. They tinkered with it for a bit (Dickie getting his mum to take him to the Shell garage in Mayfield to get fuel for it). He left Ferris tinkering with it when he went to his Jobcentre interview and, according to statements, Ferris stayed there until he got the call from Dickie to pick him up.  The only movements on record for it are Ferris's trip through the woods and Newbattle Golf Course to collect Dickie and the return journey. Ferris and Dickie claimed to be in Dickie's house until around 9pm, when Ferris left and walked to Yvonne Walker's flat, so it would appear the bike wasn't moved again after 5.30pm. There were two witnesses whom Ferris claimed to have spoken to on his way down Lady Path between 4.20pm and 4.30pm - I have their names, but have never seen statements from them.

Was it forensically tested?
Remember this bike was positively placed at a murder scene at the time it was supposed to have occurred, if it was tested and found to have dna then the owners/riders would have questions to answer. If however it was clean would that go some way to suggesting that the murder didn’t occur at that time!

Not to my knowledge. If it was, the information was never released to the defence. It wasn't even known about until Saturday 5th July and (again, from memory) by the time the police got around to asking about it, they no longer had it. As per the introduction of confusing information in this case, another "dirt bike" was mentioned by one of the two (I'd have to go back and check which one - I think it was Ferris, but I'll double check) - that was in relation to the finding of the gloves. Information was offered about the history of this bike, but it's unclear whether they claimed to have ridden it before or after the bike in question.

There were witness statements about Ferris climbing over a fence later that night, his jeans ripped and covered with what the witnesses assumed was mud. To my knowledge, those jeans were never forensically tested either.

I was also wondering where the furthest item contaminated with blood that was found at the scene and at what direction it was found in relation to the body?

A bloodstained branch was retrieved 25 yards westward of the body (so 9 yards from the body in the direction of Newbattle). Other bloodstained branches were discovered eastward of the body (in the direction of Easthouses), but their distances from the body were not recorded (or, if they were, the information was never released to the defence). Someone claiming to be a relative of Jodi's once claimed that a bloodstained branch was found in the waste ground to the right of the lane leading to the Easthouses entrance to the path, so that would have been some 500 yards eastward of the body. Craig Dobbie claimed Jodi went over the wall and a violent encounter ensued, causing her to turn "eastward, towards home" - he made this claim on the basis of bloodstained branches found in the woodland strip. If, as he claimed, Jodi was attacked immediately she went over the wall at the V point, the bloodstained branches he's talking about would have to be at least 16.3m eastward from the body, since Jodi was found 16.3m west of the V point. All of the bloodstains on the branches were found to be Jodi's blood.

The police files refer to yards and metres interchangeably - sorry if that's confusing, but it's all we've ever had to work with and it makes it really difficult to pinpoint with any precision exactly what distance they're talking about.

[gordo30]

The branch 25 yards towards newbattle when taken in context with the initial assault being around 7m? In that direction could suggest it was a part of that initial assault or had been moved because of the assault. Those further towards Easthouses are more suspicious in relation to possible movement of the murderer. It would seem strange have such an array of items as widespread as that. The V proved negative to any blood or forensics didn’t it so if the two lads on the bike had entered that clearing beyond the V they would surely have contaminated that area when leaving it to get the bike. Again does that mean that no crime scene existed at that time!

[gordo30]

Jodi was attacked immediately she went over the wall at the V point, the bloodstained branches he's talking about would have to be at least 16.3m eastward from the body, since Jodi was found 16.3m west of the V point. All of the bloodstains on the branches were found to be Jodi's blood

The area at the woodlands side of the V didn’t contain that much blood though did it? The initial assault happened further westwards of the body in a more dense area of woodland, the area where the spatter and smear were located

[sandra L]

The spread of the bloodstained branches is consistent with Jodi possibly being attacked, breaking away and trying to run, then being attacked again (even Dobbie himself alluded to that). The other possibility is that some of them could have been moved by animals - dogs, perhaps? That wouldn't be a reasonable explanation for the 6' branch (the one found furthest westward), but may account for some of the others.

Using the word "bloodstained" maybe gives the wrong impression - the branches all had spots or drips of blood on them - they weren't covered with blood.

The problem with the V point is how many people had been through it by the time the forensics officers got there. For example, blood on a boulder at the path side of the V was considered incapable of providing any usable evidence because it could have been deposited there by police officers at the scene. The explanation for no trace of Jodi going through the V was the same, but it's odd that there was no trace of the wall on Jodi either. I've been through the V point many times and every time, I get "scuff marks" of some description on my jeans.

It's true that the area directly behind the V had no bloodstaining, which doesn't fit with Dobbie's theory of the assault starting there and then moving westward then eastward. We don't know for sure where the initial assault happened - all we know is there was blood spray and a small smear on the wall to the west, beside where Jodi's body was found. The area where Jodi was found (and her body itself) were remarkably clean of blood, which seems very unusual. We don't know, for example, if blood had pooled beneath where Jodi lay, because no soil samples were taken (or, if they were, they weren't released to the defence). There was no pooled blood at the foot of the wall where the blood spray was (and where it was claimed Jodi's throat was cut) - the crime scene photographs show that clearly. I've said for many years that the spray on the wall is highly unlikely to be arterial spray.

So where does all of that leave us? The lack of evidence from the wall could suggest that there was no crime scene when the boys on the moped were there, meaning the time of death was wrong. Coupled with the kids who were playing in the woodland strip at the time who saw and heard nothing and the dog walkers at the junction of the paths at five o'clock who saw and heard nothing, Dickie Snr's claim to have seen and heard nothing, the cyclist's and Falconer's claim that they saw nothing, that's 9 people at or around the scene who should have seen something and didn't.

Similarly, because of the absolute hash the police made of protecting the crime scene, lack of evidence from the wall could be because they didn't try to collect it or they conceded from 8am on July 1st that whatever they might get from the wall would be evidentially worthless. We know that someone carried blood over the wall to the path side because of the blood on the boulder, but we'll probably never know who that was. It would have been a very dangerous move for the killer to climb back through the V onto the path side - that would have put him out in the open, with nowhere to hide, for several hundred yards in both directions. Also, he would have no idea if someone might appear on the path just as he climbed through (that happened the last time I was down there - had just climbed back onto the path side when a man appeared behind me and scared the bejeezus out of me because I didn't know he was there).

There were other, far safer routes for him to make his escape without being seen.

[gordo30]

When put together like that it does make the time of the murder pretty impossible but we’ve known that for a while.

Didn’t Dickie snr take his dogs through that point sometime that day? I remember the oldest one wasn’t able to jump up that high or was it further down the path that he entered the woodland?

[gordo30]

One big problem is if the murder occurred sometime after the 17:15 allotted time spot and put it to the latest of those 9 people who should have heard or saw something then we have a short window of when the crime could have been committed, equally we have a longer window of when it couldn’t have. If Jodi has simply went somewhere else and with someone different, whoever she was with would also appear to be the murderer!(alternatively she could have been with someone who caused her to be murdered) Or why wouldn’t they have came forward and simply said “yeah Jodi was with me until 6,7,8 pm etc”. Then we have the fact that if she had been with someone else for an extended period of time from where the crime occurred it would appear that Jodi was making her way towards Luke at newbattle, or alternatively on her way back from that area.

At that later time of night it would be unlikely for her to actually expect to go to see Luke! Mainly because of the non contact so she couldn’t be sure Luke would even be in, also this would be out of sorts with the routines and regular actions of Luke and Jodi .

[sandra L]

When put together like that it does make the time of the murder pretty impossible but we’ve known that for a while.

Didn’t Dickie snr take his dogs through that point sometime that day? I remember the oldest one wasn’t able to jump up that high or was it further down the path that he entered the woodland?

He took his 8 dogs through the V point (he lifted the old one through). The problem is, we can't put a time on when that was - their statements are all over the place - anywhere between 5.30pm and 8 - 8.30pm. I'd have thought the dogs would have left forensic traces on the wall - it's a stone dyke that 7 dogs scrambled up, through and over onto the other side. Dickie Snr said he walked back up from the V break, on the woodland side, to the big break at the junction of the paths (the Easthouses end) and back along Lady Path. If it was the later end of the timescales given, he'd be arriving back at the house shortly before Ferris left to go to Yvonne Walker's, but neither of them ties the two events as happening in such close time proximity.

it absolutely fries my head, even after all these years, trying to work it out!

[gordo30]

Crucially though it fits with there not being a body or a crime scene at the time the prosecution claimed.

Jodi has to be somewhere else at some point that night.
I was wondering we hear a lot about the close relatives to Jodi on her mother’s side and these were regular haunts for Jodi, she would visit YW and her gran, I’m sure she was also close to the aunts if their actions that night are anything to go by. What about har relatives on her fathers side? Did she regularly see them? Where did her uncle stay the one who committed suicide before the trial?

Looking at other aspects to see where she had went might be more informative. She had nothing substantial in her digestive system and we know she didn’t  have dinner! Would this suggest she wasn’t somewhere where food was readily available? No alcohol in her system but the toxicology report stated she had used cannabis at some point after she had left the house. I’m kinda leaning towards not being at a house she knew well or outside somewhere the whole time, surely though she would have been seen!

Where there any squats around the area that kids used to hang around in?

[gordo30]

5.30pm and 8 - 8.30pm. I'd have thought the dogs would have left forensic traces on the wall - it's a stone dyke that 7 dogs scrambled up, through and over onto the other side. Dickie Snr said he walked back up from the V break, on the woodland side, to the big break at the junction of the paths (the Easthouses end) and back along Lady Path

Let’s take it he was wrong substantially and it was actually 5pm , allowing for possibly missing Jodi and the murderer. This was a prolonged attack taking quite a while when you put all the processes of the crime together. The route he takes would come back eventually to the point of the murder scene and his dogs didn’t alert him to it, no noise and nothing witnessed! Crazy

[sandra L]

One big problem is if the murder occurred sometime after the 17:15 allotted time spot and put it to the latest of those 9 people who should have heard or saw something then we have a short window of when the crime could have been committed, equally we have a longer window of when it couldn’t have.

Another big problem is that if the witnesses to Stocky Man were correct, and Jodi was still on the Easthouses Road at 5.05pm, she couldn't have been killed at 5.15pm behind the wall - there's not enough time.

If Jodi has simply went somewhere else and with someone different, whoever she was with would also appear to be the murderer!(alternatively she could have been with someone who caused her to be murdered) Or why wouldn’t they have came forward and simply said “yeah Jodi was with me until 6,7,8 pm etc”. Then we have the fact that if she had been with someone else for an extended period of time from where the crime occurred it would appear that Jodi was making her way towards Luke at newbattle, or alternatively on her way back from that area.

Or another alternative, Jodi spent some time with someone she "shouldn't" have been with - we know, if she left at 5pm, she was a bit too early for her usual meeting time with Luke of around 6pm - and someone attacked her after she left that person to head for Newbattle. Luke called to let her know he was out after tea at 5.32pm, eventually getting through at 5.38pm, so it would appear he hadn't expected her to have left already and, if AO told him "she's just left," Luke wouldn't be expecting her until around 6.10pm. Could she have gone to pick up some cannabis - maybe from Yvonne's, maybe from elsewhere - before heading off down the path?

It still wouldn't account for her not being seen by the witnesses who were over the wall between 8 and 9 o'clock, though.

At that later time of night it would be unlikely for her to actually expect to go to see Luke! Mainly because of the non contact so she couldn’t be sure Luke would even be in, also this would be out of sorts with the routines and regular actions of Luke and Jodi .

Agreed. Also, if she was on the path between 8.30pm and 9pm, she'd have virtually no time to spend with Luke because her curfew was 10 o'clock - she'd be getting there just in time to about turn and head back!

Then there's the scream reported by the witness in the house at the top of the path - around 8pm, he reckoned. Since Dickie didn't mention hearing it, that would rule him out as being there or thereabouts at 8pm and it's unlikely he got there at 8.30, or he'd have bumped into Falconer on his (Dickie's) way back.

So, if the expectation was that she'd be in Newbattle around 6pm (which the statements of Luke, Judith and a couple of Jodi's friends all suggest was roughly the time the and others would meet up after tea), we'd also expect her to start making her way down the path at around 5.30pm  (the time Judith originally said she left). If the scream at 8pm is connected to the murder, that gives us a rough timescale of 5.45pm - 8pm (allowing time for Jodi to get from the top of the path to the V point). We also know that Jodi smoked a joint within an hour or so of her death and, taking all of the statements into account, that had to be after she left her home that evening.

If Jodi went straight to the V point after leaving her home at the claimed time of 4.50pm to smoke a joint with someone there, there would have been no body to see at 5.15pm (again, not enough time for the entirety of the attack on Jodi) - just a couple of people getting stoned.

Alternatively, if she went in through the big break at the top of the path to smoke a joint with someone (this was a popular hangout for underage or illicit smokers) and was initially attacked there, running further into the woodland strip in an attempt to escape, that would account for the bloodstained branches at the Easthouses end of the woodland strip.

There are just so many possibilities - sixteen years on and still no answers.

[sandra L]

The bottom line is that, if Jodi was killed at 5.15pm, several people who were over the wall at or after that time should have seen her. If they (genuinely) didn't, it would be reasonable to conclude she wasn't there at that time (I can't see kids playing in the woods saying nothing -- they'd have been utterly traumatised by the sight).

But that would mean Jodi wasn't dead, in the woodland strip, as late as 9pm. She was found at 11.35pm (approximately) - AW said Jodi was "clammy" to the touch, not stone cold. Does that support the idea that Jodi was killed much later than suggested and, if so, where was she in the time in between?

[gordo30]

But that would mean Jodi wasn't dead, in the woodland strip, as late as 9pm. She was found at 11.35pm (approximately) - AW said Jodi was "clammy" to the touch, not stone cold. Does that support the idea that Jodi was killed much later than suggested and, if so, where was she in the time in between

That’s the first time I think I’ve heard that is what AW described the body she had touched, I remember a few years ago we were discussing the entomology of the body and that didn’t coincide with a 6 hour gap between murder and discovery.

[gordo30]

Luke's dog didn't alert him to it the first time he walked directly past it. Wasn't interested. On the way back though and in front of the search party it was apparently like a scene from Lassie where he pulled Luke straight over to it and started scrabbling at the wall. A complete contrast to the dogs behaviour walking past it on the way up the path. Doesn't make sense imo

This of course has come up time and time again and I think because of so many events that were occurring that evening it takes on many connotations.
For instance is it more likely for a dog that was well trained and I think Mia could be described as a well trained dog to react out with what it’s handler wants it to do?
Do we know that it didn’t react on the way up?
Luke’s arrangements were to make his way up Roans ’ Dyke path and to make his way to Jodi’s to establish what they were to do after that. Of course on the way up if he saw Jodi then he would have let whoever know he had found her. There was no real urgency on Luke’s part as to him Jodi would have never been in danger or put herself in danger so it was simply she was not where she should have been and they were out to look for her. He was himself with a dog, instructions were made and he was following them.

Is this really any different from let’s say the immediate assumption from Judy that something bad had happened to Jodi when on other occasions she didn’t react the same way when Jodi hadn’t shown up.

[gordo30]

I am wondering lithium with what’s been discussed do you feel that the 17:15 time of the murder still holds up to scrutiny?