Author Topic: Re: The murder of Jodi Jones  (Read 2683 times)

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Offline Bullseye

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Re: The murder of Jodi Jones
« on: January 18, 2019, 12:13:AM »
Hi everyone my first post, lots of questions sorry!

It’s been years since I caught up on the case. I use to read the old site til the thread was all removed. Ive always had doubt over the case, but still don’t know if he is guilty or not hoping you guys can help me gets my facts right and clear up a few things that don’t make sense to me. 

Everything seems to be centred round that 45 minute timeframe 1700 - 1745, what evidence is there that was the time of the murder, all I could find from the court records was “Although the pathologists were unable to fix a time of death, the untoward sound heard by Leonard Kelly as he cycled along the Roan's Dyke Path would fit with the attack upon her having taken place behind the wall at that time” surely that’s not all they are going by? Also the way she was treated after she was found how reliable would a time of death be, anyone know?

Was any dna found with full dna profiles other than the sisters bf? And yet to be identified?

Was there a blood stained shirt found in the area that was not tested or examined? Find that hard to believe

Was Luke’s dog training to be a tracker dog?

How long does it take to walk from Jodie’s house to the top of the lane? From the top of the lane to the v? The v to the bottom and the bottom to Luke’s house? I believe it takes around 15mins to walk length of the lane.

Was there proof Luke’s mum got home at 1715.
The call about putting the pie on for tea, what time was that, was it on the house phone or mobile, was there a log of this call?
Luke’s brother could not confirm he saw Luke in the house, but did he confirm he had pie and mash, how long after his mum got home did he come for tea? Was his room on the same level or upstair?

Is it correct he had not showered, hair and hands dirty (if I killed someone first thing I’d do is shower)

A lot of confusion over clothing I found. Witness one, green fishing type hip length jacket, witness 2 green bomber style with orange lining. So why were the police looking for a Parker style jacket and a combat shirt (which I believe Luke said he only purchased after the murder) Did they suggest there was footwear missing too, as lads that age don’t usually have a load of shoes, generally they wear the same pair most days, were any missing? What did the 2 lads that knew Luke and seen him sitting on the wall say he was wearing?

JF and GD on path at 1700 to 1720, around same time as LK, motor bike parked at v did not see or hear anything or anyone. (Who was the witness that said they saw the bike parked at v with nobody else around?) LK heard noise behind wall but saw nobody, and did not see or hear any bike, is that correct?

What time did Luke leave to meet other friends and what time did they meet at. How long would that journey take

I’m hoping the answer to some of these might help me make a bit more sense of the case, or maybe give me more questions lol

Offline nugnug

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Re: Re: The murder of Jodi Jones
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2019, 12:08:PM »
are good to see you agian bullseye there did used to be a timline of the events

from memory i belive lukes met up with his mates at 7pm,

theres 4 difrent times fr when jodi left her house.

« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 10:09:PM by nugnug »

Offline Bullseye

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Re: Re: The murder of Jodi Jones
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2019, 08:55:PM »
Hey nugnug, it’s been a few years, hope you are well.

I’m just reading through all the info on here, refreshing my memory. On page 200 so getting there. Finding a few answers to some questions I’ve had over the years. But I’m sure I will have more lol

Offline sandra L

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Re: Re: The murder of Jodi Jones
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2019, 07:14:PM »
Hi, Bullseye, I'm stuck on a train at the moment, so I have some time to answer your questions!

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Everything seems to be centred round that 45 minute timeframe 1700 - 1745, what evidence is there that was the time of the murder, all I could find from the court records was “Although the pathologists were unable to fix a time of death, the untoward sound heard by Leonard Kelly as he cycled along the Roan's Dyke Path would fit with the attack upon her having taken place behind the wall at that time” surely that’s not all they are going by? Also the way she was treated after she was found how reliable would a time of death be, anyone know?

There was no evidence whatsoever that this was to time of death. No medical, pathologist or forensic evidence and no eyewitness (or even deduction from eyewitness accounts) because the time of leaving was never confirmed. If, as earlier statements suggested, Jodi left at 5.05 or 5.30 ToD could not have been 5.15


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Was any dna found with full dna profiles other than the sisters bf? And yet to be identified?

Yes, there were five male DNA profiles unaccounted for. One of this was eventually identified as Falconer (condom man), the others remain unidentified. Other, partial profiles on the clothing also remain unidentified but cannot be Luke's.

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Was there a blood stained shirt found in the area that was not tested or examined? Find that hard to believe
There was a hoodie and jogging bottoms that were never tested (no  indication that they were bloodstained. A shirt found on the wall was bloodstained -from memory, there were no positive results from testing, but again, partial results indicated nothing of Luke's DNA - i' d need to go back and fact check this, since I don't remember the exact circumstances

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Was Luke’s dog training to be a tracker dog?
yes

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how long does it take to walk from Jodie’s house to the top of the lane? From the top of the lane to the v? The v to the bottom and the bottom to Luke’s house? I believe it takes around 15mins to walk length of the lane.
There's the entrance lane then the path. Jodi's house to entrance lane, 2 mins 40:seconds, entrance lane to top of path, 2 - 3 mins, top of path to V, 7 -8 mins, v to bottom, approx 4 mins, bottom to Luke's house 7mins.

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Was there proof Luke’s mum got home at 1715. [/]quote]
Other than Luke and Shane,s accounts, CCTV showed Corinne leaving work just after 5pm and in a shop 5 mins from Her home at we ar around 5.08, but nothing else to say she went straight home from there.

[qute]The call about putting the pie on for tea, what time was that, was it on the house phone or mobile, was there a log of this call?

From memory, 4.23pm, house phone to work landline, yes, it's in the phone records.

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Luke’s brother could not confirm he saw Luke in the house, but did he confirm he had pie and mash, how long after his mum got home did he come for tea? Was his room on the same level or upstair?

He did  confirm he saw Luke, but the police would not accept it because he couldn't remember in his first statement. He confirmed what he ate and said it was just after his mother arrived home around 5.15pm. He was upstairs until he was called down for tea, came down and collected his dinner, poke to like and his mum, the took his meal up to his room to est. The police said Corinne put him up to saying all of that.

[qute{s it correct he had not showered, hair and hands dirty (if I killed someone first thing I’d do is shower) [/quote] Yes, that is correct. The dirt on his ankles and neck were described as having the appearance of having been there for some time.

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lot of confusion over clothing I found. Witness one, green fishing type hip length jacket, witness 2 green bomber style with orange lining. So why were the police looking for a Parker style jacket and a combat shirt (which I believe Luke said he only purchased after the murder) Did they suggest there was footwear missing too, as lads that age don’t usually have a load of shoes, generally they wear the same pair most days, were any missing? What did the 2 lads that knew Luke and seen him sitting on the wall say he was wearing?

Only one witness mentioned a parka jacket (the witnesses who may have seen someone else entirely but assumed it was Luke) - she said it "could have been s parka" but "only because of the length. Initially, she described it as " dark" and possibly green". No questions about missing footwear.

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JF and GD on path at 1700 to 1720, around same time as LK, motor bike parked at v did not see or hear anything or anyone. (Who was the witness that said they saw the bike parked at v with nobody else around?) LK heard noise behind wall but saw nobody, and did not see or hear any bike, is that correct?
Quote

I can't name the person who saw the bike, but her other confirmed movements and evidence make it an extremely credible and reliable account. JF and GD admitted the bike was there without them at 5.15pm

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What time did Luke leave to meet other friends and what time did they meet at. How long would that journey take

After waiting for Jodi until about quarter to seven, Luke crossed the road into the abbey to wait for his other friends arriving - it would have taken him no more than 2 minutes to get into the abbey grounds -it was right opposite the wall where he was sitting in full view waiting for Jodi at the end of his street.

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I’m hoping the answer to some of these might help me make a bit more sense of the case, or maybe give me more questions lol

All of this and much more is in my latest book 'Innocents Betrayed' - available on Amazon

Offline Bullseye

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Re: Re: The murder of Jodi Jones
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2019, 10:49:PM »
Thanks for the information Sandra, I will check out the book, still to read the first one too sorry!  :-[ I sent you a PM hope you got it, I’ve no idea how to use these sites lol

So there is nothing other than a guy on a bike that heard a noise behind the wall at 1715 , to say that this is the time of the murder 1700 to 1730? So it really could have been anytime? And there is a credible sighting of the bike at 1715 at the V (sorry I wasn’t asking for a name, I just wondered if someone else on the path to see them) Then it’s very unlikely to have been then, as they would have heard or seen something or scared anyone away I’d have thought? So it would need to be after that. Timing just doesn’t fit for me to think it’s Luke. Then he is just sitting meters away from her body minutes after he has meant to have killed her for an hour, she could have been found at anytime, he would have no idea if there was any blood dna etc on him.

Turnbull said there where 3 key points that  showed Luke’s guilt.
Shane’s statement
AB sighting
Luke finding body, not the dog

Shane’s statement - someone has to have made the tea, just because he could not confirm he seen Luke does not mean Luke was not home. His mum confirmed Luke was home, only she and Luke know the truth on this but to give an alibi for such a horrendous crime, and continue to stick by this and show full support make me tend to believe her. Only thing that I don’t understand is why Shane has never spoken out to clarify this over all these years and also show his support. I know I would.

AB sighting - In my opinion the clothing does not match Jodi so i would not have taken that as a positive sighting, also she did not confirm Luke being the boy she saw.

Luke or the dog find the body - Only Luke and the family know the truth to this one. But I’ve never understood this really. Why the family statements all changed. First they all confirmed in more than one statement over a few weeks that the dog alerted them to the wall, there was no question to that. Then the statement changed, why, I’m not sure how that can be mistaken as they said they saw the dog jump at wall originally. But why would they change this, did they remember later they didn’t actually see the dog alert, they had just taken Luke’s word for it? It makes me uncomfortable to think how much of an affect this had to the trial, it wasn’t just a bit of evidence, it was a key point, one of the 3 key points Turnbull raised with the lack of any dna, etc. As I said only Luke and the family know if the original statement was correct or mistaken. if the dog was a trained tracker I would tend to believe the original statement that the dog alerted them to the wall. But just my opinion guys!

Offline nugnug

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Re: Re: The murder of Jodi Jones
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2019, 08:34:PM »
i never i  understaood why the family wre looking for a tennager who was late hom in the woods i mean why would a teenage girl of been hanging around in the woods in the dark and why the hell wold you think they were.

and why did they not phone any of jodis friends how did they know jodi wasnt around a friends house..
« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 08:35:PM by nugnug »

Offline Bullseye

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Re: Re: The murder of Jodi Jones
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2019, 01:09:PM »
I thought they were just following the route they thought Jodi might have taken after she left home for Lukes. Just so happens the first place they looked the dog found her. I didn’t think there was anything strange by that but I didn’t realise no other calls were made to friends. That would be the first thing to do, or was Jodie mum maybe doing this when the search party left?

I remember reading that Jodi had gone missing a few days or weeks before, she was at her friends til early hours of the morning. What action did the family take that time?
I assume this was a weekend she was missing before? the night Jodi was killed was a school night so can understand them being extremely worried and setting out looking for her, but There should still be lots of calls made to friends also, checking if she was there, maybe even before a call to the police?

Offline nugnug

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Re: Re: The murder of Jodi Jones
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2019, 02:19:PM »
I thought they were just following the route they thought Jodi might have taken after she left home for Lukes. Just so happens the first place they looked the dog found her. I didn’t think there was anything strange by that but I didn’t realise no other calls were made to friends. That would be the first thing to do, or was Jodie mum maybe doing this when the search party left?

I remember reading that Jodi had gone missing a few days or weeks before, she was at her friends til early hours of the morning. What action did the family take that time?
I assume this was a weekend she was missing before? the night Jodi was killed was a school night so can understand them being extremely worried and setting out looking for her, but There should still be lots of calls made to friends also, checking if she was there, maybe even before a call to the police?

well i wouldent you wouldent want to call the police untill you wre abslutly sure she was missing so i think you would want to phone her friends up first.

becouse if she hadent gon to lukes there wsnt really any reason to think she took that route.

Offline Bullseye

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Re: Re: The murder of Jodi Jones
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2019, 02:39:PM »
If it was my kid I’d have called Luke first, sent people out to look and called the rest of her pals only after that would I call the police.

If I was searching I’d start by following the route she would take  to Luke’s, then searching surrounding areas she was known to hang out.

Been wondering about her smoking habits, anyone know if she bought her own hash? Could she roll a joint, was she known to have a smoke by herself?

I know about an 8 bar was picked up that night, was this at Jodi’s home, did she have a smoke with her bro before she went out?did Luke get his weed of jof usually?

Nugnug I sent you a pm too, again not sure if I sent it right, not use to using these sites sorry lol

Offline sandra L

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Re: Re: The murder of Jodi Jones
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2019, 10:01:AM »
Just to clear up a couple of points. Jodi's mum told police she was certain Jodi and Luke were going to be "mucking about up here" - Mayfield and Easthouses. There was no suggestion at all that Jodi was going to Newbattle (where Luke lived). When she called Luke asking for Jodi, she didn't ask where they were supposed to be meeting up - Luke told her he hadn't seen Jodi all night and she hung up. That's confirmed by both Luke and Judith's statements. So the family search trio (already in Mayfield) would have had no reason to believe Jodi might have gone to Newbattle. They didn't check anywhere on the way to the path, including places Jodi often spent time in Mayfield (Scotts Caravans, Luke's mum's business premises) or Yvonne Walker's flat, just yards from Alice Walker's home. They weren't even looking for her or calling out for her on the shortcut from Mayfield via the Complex) which was also surrounded by trees. They only switched on their torches and started calling out Jodi's name when they reached the entrance to the path.
It's not so much the going to the path that's strange (although it is, in view of the fact that everyone believed she intended to be in Easthouses or Mayfield that evening), but that they didn't look anywhere else at all for her.
Also, Janine told the court the trio had no intention of continuing down onto the Newbattle road if they didn't find Jodi on the path. (There are lots of places on the Newbattle Road where a young girl could be dragged into the woodland either side) - the path, and only the path - was their only /focus.

Offline sandra L

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Re: Re: The murder of Jodi Jones
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2019, 10:18:AM »
The 17:15 sighting of the bike at the V. Six independent witnesses saw the boys and the bike driving "erratically" through the yard of their workplace at closing time - i.e. 5pm. Two of them saw the boys pushing the bike up the Newbattle Road after it cut out and turning into the Newbattle entrance to the path, as did a passing motorist. That places the boys and the bike at the entrance to the path, with a bike that had cut out, at approximately 17.05. Walking normally to the V point from there would have taken 4 - 5 minutes, so it's reasonable to suggest they'd need more time because they were pushing the bike, but the timings strongly suggest they would have been at the V point, with the bike, at around 5.15pm. The best evidence of all is their own statements - the admitted that it was their bike, propped against the wall without them at that time (although they initially lied to the police to have themselves off the path an in GD's house prior to 4.30). The lie was exposed by the evidence of 7 other witnesses who saw them at 5pm on the bike, a call from GD's phone at 4.30 asking JF to pick him up in Dalkeith and GD's appointment at the Jobcentre - all of that proved they were not back in GD's house before 4.30pm nor, more importantly, before 5.15pm.

The AB sighting of the guy at the Easthouses entrance to the path was nothing like Luke - an older guy, late teens to early twenties, thick messy hair sticking up in a clump at the back, fisherman's clothes - matching trousers and jacket with a bulging pocket. He was too far away for her to see his face and she was clear at the beginning that she could not tell investigators what he looked like facially - she couldn't make out a single feature.

The dog's tracker training records were in police hands and they also interviewed the trainer, who said her tracking abilities were "excellent" - he said she was a "natural". He was never asked to give evidence at trial. There would appear to be no doubt, from the records and the interview, that if the dog was in tracker mode, she would have alerted by reaching to the highest point she could find and "air-sniffing" in the direction of the thing she was alerting to.

Offline nugnug

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Re: Re: The murder of Jodi Jones
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2019, 02:46:PM »
Just to clear up a couple of points. Jodi's mum told police she was certain Jodi and Luke were going to be "mucking about up here" - Mayfield and Easthouses. There was no suggestion at all that Jodi was going to Newbattle (where Luke lived). When she called Luke asking for Jodi, she didn't ask where they were supposed to be meeting up - Luke told her he hadn't seen Jodi all night and she hung up. That's confirmed by both Luke and Judith's statements. So the family search trio (already in Mayfield) would have had no reason to believe Jodi might have gone to Newbattle. They didn't check anywhere on the way to the path, including places Jodi often spent time in Mayfield (Scotts Caravans, Luke's mum's business premises) or Yvonne Walker's flat, just yards from Alice Walker's home. They weren't even looking for her or calling out for her on the shortcut from Mayfield via the Complex) which was also surrounded by trees. They only switched on their torches and started calling out Jodi's name when they reached the entrance to the path.
It's not so much the going to the path that's strange (although it is, in view of the fact that everyone believed she intended to be in Easthouses or Mayfield that evening), but that they didn't look anywhere else at all for her.
Also, Janine told the court the trio had no intention of continuing down onto the Newbattle road if they didn't find Jodi on the path. (There are lots of places on the Newbattle Road where a young girl could be dragged into the woodland either side) - the path, and only the path - was their only /focus.

but why would be certan  that they wre both jodi had lied to her about her whereabouts before.

Offline Bullseye

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Re: Re: The murder of Jodi Jones
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2019, 01:20:PM »
Thanks a lot Sandra, you book answered most of my questions and opened my eyes up to so much more on Scottish law that I thought I knew, turns out I had no idea of my rights!!

Couple of  Question arised from the book

Bit confusing on the 9 bar, was it the brother or the cousin that owned this, was the brother a dealer also, don’t see how he could afford to buy it unless he was selling most of it. Did the police find this when they searched jj house, I assume this search was done! The knife used to cut the 9 bar, was it found, it would more than likely have been heated up very hot in order to cut through the cannabis, that’s was how bars were usually cut up.

Luke got his weed of the cousin, was he due to get some of the 9 bar that day/night. Did he have anything on him when he was taken by police that night, how much did he usually buy from the cousin if he was meant to be some big time dealer I assume quite a bit??

Only place I can see jj having a smoke is in the house with her bro before she left or with yw which sounds plausible, do webknow much about yw statements or movements that night?

The 2 other occasions jj was late, was this at the weekend or a school night also?

1118 call, was  there was no mention of being with Luke? Does that mean he took over 20 mins to walk the path?

Is there dna evidence still available to retest or have they all now been destroyed? Can this be done independently or is there red tape making this difficult? I think some answers are there!

You said a few times in the book there may be tests statements, phone call logs, etc that were carried out but not given to the defence, I always assumed the defence were entitled to all information obtained not selected evidence, can you clarify this?







« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 01:38:PM by Bullseye »

Offline sandra L

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Re: Re: The murder of Jodi Jones
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2019, 07:22:PM »
Quote
Bit confusing on the 9 bar, was it the brother or the cousin that owned this, was the brother a dealer also, don’t see how he could afford to buy it unless he was selling most of it.

The brother owned it, according to statements attributed to him. I've no idea if he was a dealer - the case files are silent about that.

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Did the police find this when they searched jj house, I assume this search was done!

No and No.

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The knife used to cut the 9 bar, was it found, it would more than likely have been heated up very hot in order to cut through the cannabis, that’s was how bars were usually cut up.

No. To my knowledge, no attempt was ever made to recover either the bar or the knife used to cut it. You have to remember, the police didn't even become aware of all this until nearly 2 weeks into the investigation.

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Luke got his weed of the cousin, was he due to get some of the 9 bar that day/night. Did he have anything on him when he was taken by police that night, how much did he usually buy from the cousin if he was meant to be some big time dealer I assume quite a bit??

No, there was no plan for Luke to get any from the cousin that night/day - he had no plan to be in Easthouses/Mayfield at all. He had nothing on him when the police took him to the station after Jodi was found. Prior to the murder, he bought £10 - £20 worth at a time. There was reference in the case files to one occasion where more than that was supposed to be bought - around £100 - because a group of friends had "clubbed together." However, it's interesting that that story didn't come from Luke or any of his friends, but from someone who was connected with supplying cannabis to the wider group. There was never anything to support it.

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Only place I can see jj having a smoke is in the house with her bro before she left or with yw which sounds plausible, do webknow much about yw statements or movements that night?

Smoking at home was outright denied by the family members. Jodi never smoked at home, with anyone or by herself, according to all of their statements. There is nothing to account for YW's movements that evening. Her statements in that regard (if they exist) were not released to the defence.

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The 2 other occasions jj was late, was this at the weekend or a school night also?
Weekend, both of them.

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1118 call, was  there was no mention of being with Luke? Does that mean he took over 20 mins to walk the path?

I know the timings section of the book is very confusing, but the 11.18 call is disputed, both in where the search trio was when it was answered and what was said in the call. In short, the walk from the junction of the paths to the V point at a "brisk pace" in daylight was timed at 7 minutes. Allowing a couple of minutes extra for the discussion when the trio met with Luke at the junction of the path (no more than 2 minutes, according to the statements) and another couple of minutes for the slower walk in the darkness (all of the statements referred to the slow pace), the return journey down the path required at least 11 minutes. If the trio were in the "complex" at 11.18, they would not have reached the junction of the paths until 11.23 - add the 11 minutes required to get to the V point and the time is 11.34 - almost the exact time Luke called 999 the first time. But there's no time for the three members of the search party climbing over the wall, one at a time, finding Jodi, getting back to the V point and climbing back over etc. Even allowing 2 minutes each (and all of the searchers spoke of the struggle AW had getting over the wall, so it's likely to be more than that), the first 999 call would have to be around 11.40pm, based on these timings (which are, in turn, based on the search trio's own statements). That's after the police call back to Luke. There's a lot to take in about this aspect of the case - might be better as a stand alone question!

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Is there dna evidence still available to retest or have they all now been destroyed? Can this be done independently or is there red tape making this difficult? I think some answers are there!

Sorry, I can't answer that question because of the ongoing case review.

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You said a few times in the book there may be tests statements, phone call logs, etc that were carried out but not given to the defence, I always assumed the defence were entitled to all information obtained not selected evidence, can you clarify this?

Sadly, that's a mistake many people make. The defence is entitled only to what the "Disclosure Officer" (working for the police) deems worthy of disclosing to the defence. Officially, that is information that might undermine the Crown case or assist the defence case. In reality, those re the very things least likely to be disclosed. Everything else that the prosecution is not relying on goes onto an "unused evidence" schedule. The defence can request items from this schedule, but they must (a) know what it is they're asking for and why it's relevant and (b) give "good reason" for requesting it - once again, if the disclosure officer doesn't agree that it's "good reason," s/he can refuse to release it.

Two examples from other cases:

(1) An item on the unused schedule was labelled "fibres" found on the palm of the victim's hand. Years later,  it was discovered there were actually human hairs, clutched in the victim's hand, almost certainly from the killer.

(2) The defence requested phone log records of other potential suspects, because the phone records of the accused were being relied on by the prosecution. The request was refused because the disclosure officer deemed it irrelevant to the defence case. The accused was convicted.




Offline nugnug

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Re: Re: The murder of Jodi Jones
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2019, 03:39:PM »
i read a very intresting interview with gorden dicky ill try and find it agian.