Author Topic: Sheila's first rifle load:  (Read 419 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Adam

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 20710
Sheila's first rifle load:
« on: September 19, 2019, 12:08:PM »
124.

During this conversation the appellant said he saw rabbits outside the house so he took the .22 rifle from the office/den, loaded it with eight to ten rounds from a box of ammunition that he left in the kitchen and went outside.

In fact he fired no shots outside and he then left the gun in the kitchen having removed the magazine and the bullet which was in the breach.

----------

A few issues here.

Bamber took the time to remove the magazine and the bullet in the breach. However did not do the easier thing of putting all items away.

Nevill and June did not notice the rifle, magazine and bullet before going to bed.

Sheila entered the kitchen first, several minutes or hours before Nevill. She saw the magazine, rifle and bullet.

Sheila fully loaded the rifle before Nevill woke & got downstairs.

Although Sheila had fully loaded the rifle, she did not go upstairs and use it straight away. She was calm enough to wait downstairs for minutes or hours until Nevill arrived downstairs.

Nevill waking and going downstairs somehow enraged Sheila, although he would have tried to calm her down. 

Although Nevill had enraged Sheila, he was able to phone Bamber after deciding to not disarm her. 

Sheila and Nevill were not in the kitchen together calmly speaking to each other. There was no escalation. Sheila was already holding the rifle when Nevill arrived downstairs.

Sheila had gone downstairs alone. Bare footed and in her nightie.

Sheila had not decided to committ murder/suicide when going downstairs. She only decided this after Nevill got downstairs.

Although Sheila was calm enough to stay downstairs, Nevill was somehow woken and went downstairs. Bare footed and in pyjamas.

June and the twins were not woken either before or after Nevill woke and arrived downstairs.

« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 12:33:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 20710
Re: Sheila's first rifle load:
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2019, 12:46:PM »
Always thought Sheila was supposed to have picked up a fully loaded rifle with Nevill also in the kitchen. Bamber says this could not have happened.

There is no way Nevill would have let Sheila load the rifle. Therefore he was upstairs, probably asleep while the rifle was being loaded.

Sheila waited for Nevill to get downstairs and ring Bamber. Before going upstairs & opening fire.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 12:53:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 20710
Re: Sheila's first rifle load:
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2019, 04:32:PM »
This explains part of the Sheila scenario -

Sheila went downstairs alone.

Sheila loaded the rifle.

Sheila waited downstairs.

Sheila may have started shouting in the kitchen to get a reaction.

Nevill woke and went downstairs. June & the twins did not wake.

Nevill sees Sheila holding the rifle in the kitchen and immediately rings Jeremy. Sheila lets Nevill make this call.

Sheila goes upstairs with the rifle. Nevill lets her.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 04:54:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline David1819

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7177
Re: Sheila's first rifle load:
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2019, 03:51:AM »
Always thought Sheila was supposed to have picked up a fully loaded rifle with Nevill also in the kitchen. Bamber says this could not have happened.

There is no way Nevill would have let Sheila load the rifle. Therefore he was upstairs, probably asleep while the rifle was being loaded.

Sheila waited for Nevill to get downstairs and ring Bamber. Before going upstairs & opening fire.

If you want to convince us that Bamber is guilty. The burden is on you to prove something meaningful. It is not my job or the forums to come up with alternative explanations for your speculations and assumptions.

The presence of copper on Sheila’s left hand, and presence of lead on her right hand. That is something meaningful and indicates she not only inserted the magazine in the rifle but also re-filled the magazine once it was necessary to do so.

Creating a “no way” scenario out of thin air does not challenge what I have mentioned above.

Offline Adam

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 20710
Re: Sheila's first rifle load:
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2019, 06:44:AM »
1. Perfectly clean palm of hands on Sheila - Not disputed - COA

2. One blood mark on back of hand of Sheila - Not disputed - COA 

3. Extremley low levels of lead found on hands on Sheila.  Not consistent with handling a rifle. Significantly higher traces expected - Not disputed - COA, BAMBER'S DEFENCE. 

4. Well manicured nails on Sheila - Not disputed - COA. 

5. No broken nails - Not disputed COA. 

6. Nails in tact - Not disputed - COA. 

7. No marks or indentations on Sheila's fingers - Not disputed - COA. 

8. No blood on finger tips - Not disputed - COA. 

9. No dirt on finger tips - Not disputed - COA. 

10. No powder on finger tips - Not disputed - COA. 

11. Sheila's time limits - Not disputed - POLICE, BAMBER.

12. No trace of any lead dust coating on Sheila - Not disputed - COA. 

13. No traces of the lubricant from re loading twice - Not disputed - COA

14. Very clean feet - Disputed with one picture of foot with redness - COA. 

15. Feet free from significant blood staining - Disputed with one picture of foot with redness - COA. 

16. Bamber doing nothing between 3.10am - 3.26/36am - Not disputed - BAMBER

17. No debris such as sugar on feet - Not disputed - COA.

18. No foot injuries after bare footed aggressive movement around big house & brutal fight - Not disputed - PHOTOGRAPHS, PATHOLOGIST. 

19. Only Sheila Caffell's blood on nightdress - Not disputed - COA. 

20. No presence of firearm residue on nightdress - Not disputed - COA. 

21. No trace of rifle oil on nightdress - Not disputed - COA. 

22. No mention of nightdress damage from agressive movement and brutal kitchen fight - Not disputed - COA. 

23. No facial injuries on Sheila - Not disputed - PHOTOGRAPHS, PATHOLOGIST. 

24. Sheila avoiding kitchen fight injuries with no body or face protection - Not disputed - FORUM. 

25. Nevill's massive height/weight advantage over Sheila - Not disputed - ACCEPTED FACT. 

26. Impossibility of shower removing evidence off Sheila - Not disputed - SCIENTIFIC FACT. 

27. Impossibility of Sheila showering after killing herself - Not disputed - SCIENTIFIC FACT. 

28. Nevill being found bare footed in pyjamas suggesting had just got out of bed - Not disputed - PHOTOS. 

29. Sheila being found bare footed in pyjamas suggesting she had just got out of bed - Not disputed - PHOTOS. 

30. Paint in silencer - Not disputed but suggestion from Bamber cousins did this - NUMEROUS SOURCES. . 

31. Aga scratch's - Not disputed but suggestion from Bamber cousins did this - NUMEROUS SOURCES. 

32. Blood in silencer - Not disputed but suggestion from Bamber cousins did this - NUMEROUS SOURCES. 

33. No blood in the rifle end - Not disputed - NUMEROUS SOURCES. 

34. Sheila's legs pulled after second shot - Not disputed - COA. 

35. Blood underneath the bible - Not disputed - COA. 

36. A lot of blood on Nevill's side of the bed - Not disputed - PHOTOGRAPHS.

37. Large scale multiple mental & physical effects of Haloperidol - Not disputed. - INTERNET ARTICLES, YOUTUBE. 

38. Sheila having Haloperidol in her body - Not disputed - COA. 

39. Sheila's condition hours before the massacre - Not disputed. Bamber being a main witness - BAMBER & OTHER PEOPLE. 

40. Sheila under sedation - Not disputed - COA. 

41. Easy window entrance into WHF - Not disputed. Agreed by Bamber. - BAMBER. 

42. Shutting kitchen window from outside - Disputed in 2017 but 20 independent sources prove otherwise - 20 SOURCES IN THE LIBRARY. 

43. No better massacre weapon options for Bamber - Not disputed - FORUM. 

44. Professor Herbert Leon Mcdonell - Not disputed after Bamber hired him - WILKES'S BOOK. 

45. Easy bike routes to WHF - Not disputed - NUMEROUS SOURCES. 

46. Bike brought to Bamber's cottage just before the massacre - Not disputed - BAMBERS POLICE INTERVIEWS. 

47. June not waking or getting woken by Nevill - Not disputed - COA. 

48. Nevill's back burns - Not disputed. Suggestion burns were caused minus silencer rejected - BAMBER, TONIGHT PROGRAMME. 

49. 2012 CCRC court judgement - judicial review request made & rejected - JUDICIAL REVIEW DOCUMENT. 

50. The twins not waking - Not disputed - NUMEROUS SOURCES. 

51. Bamber's call to the police - Not disputed - NUMEROUS SOURCES. 

52. Nevill's horrific injuries - Not disputed - COURT OF APPEAL. 

53. Sheila's time limits - Not disputed - POLICE STATEMENTS. 

54. No valid Sheila scenario - Not disputed - OS & FORUM. 

55. Bamber's 3am call to Julie - Not disputed - BAMBER. 

56. Nevill's 2/4 second call to Bamber - Not disputed - BAMBER. 

57. Bamber asking the police to pick him up - Not disputed - WILKES, CRIMES, HEARTS & CORONETS.

58. Nevill's back burns - Not disputed - BAMBER. 

59. Ease for a man to lift & carry a woman - Not disputed. YOUTUBE VIDEO. 

60. Crime scenes of 5 individuals - Not disputed - COA.  

61. Bamber's found hacksaw - Not disputed - BAMBER. 

62. Bible on Sheila's arm- Not disputed - PHOTOGRAPHS.

63. Only execution period available to Bamber, 12am - 3am - Not disputed - BAMBER

64. Housekeeper evidence of items around the sink being moved - Not disputed- PB WS, WILKES'S BOOK

65. Only Sheila receiving a contact shot in a location that produces back splatter- Not disputed, COA.

66. Bloodied plam print on Sheila's nightdress - Not disputed. COA.

67. Nevill being lifted onto a coal scuttle - CRIME SCENE PICTURES.  

68. Dried blood on Sheila - PATHOLOGIST. 
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 20710
Re: Sheila's first rifle load:
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2019, 06:52:AM »
It is not about proving anything. Bamber's guilt is beyond doubt.

There is one alive convicted suspect, with several motives, an opportunity and no alibi. Together with a witness - Julie Mugford, and a mountain of forensic (above) and circumstantial evidence.

I only found out this week that Bamber left the rifle empty. This means Bamber is saying Sheila loaded the rifle while Nevill was asleep, then waited for Nevill to get downstairs.

Nevill somehow decided to & was able to spend several minutes ringing Jeremy, although then only spent 4 seconds speaking to him. 

Sheila after loading the rifle was not in such a rage as to go upstairs and use it. Nevill put her in this rage when he went downstairs. This is a surprise as he was the one person who could calm her down.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 07:27:AM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline David1819

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7177
Re: Sheila's first rifle load:
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2019, 12:17:PM »
Once an honest debate no longer becomes possible. Adam resorts to the good old gish gallop! The fallacious debate tactic of drowning your opponent in a flood of individually-weak arguments in order to prevent rebuttal of the whole argument collection without great effort.


 ;D


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop




« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 12:22:PM by David1819 »

Offline lookout

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 40622
Re: Sheila's first rifle load:
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2019, 12:22:PM »
Empty vessels make the most noise. ;D

Offline David1819

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7177
Re: Sheila's first rifle load:
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2019, 12:26:PM »
Empty vessels make the most noise. ;D

He has started this whole new "no way" scenario. That requires him to believe Jeremy is an honest and credible witness. Is his vessel that empty even he cannot work out the problem there?  ???

Offline Adam

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 20710
Re: Sheila's first rifle load:
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2019, 12:32:PM »
Once an honest debate no longer becomes possible. Adam resorts to the good old gish gallop! The fallacious debate tactic of drowning your opponent in a flood of individually-weak arguments in order to prevent rebuttal of the whole argument collection without great effort.


 ;D


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop

David you must take Caroline's approach - Bamber is guilty but the silencer was fabricated.

You both agree the silencer was fabricated. You believing the relatives used Sheila's wet period blood.

You have never supported the industrial frame, so the evidence makes Bamber guilty.

Do you agree Sheila would have loaded the rifle while Nevill was asleep?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 12:34:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline David1819

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7177
Re: Sheila's first rifle load:
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2019, 12:59:PM »
Brian Elliot’s lab notes and trial testimony is evidence that Sheila’s hands were not clean at all. If the COA give a contradictory view, then it says a lot about the COAs integrity. I don’t know who Adam thinks he is fooling citing them as his “undisputed source”.  ::)

Offline David1819

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7177
Re: Sheila's first rifle load:
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2019, 04:50:PM »
Lets deal with Adam's obsession with oil and firearm residue on Sheila's nightdress.

Fletcher made this claim that if Sheila's wounds were self inflicted he would have expected to have found
residue on Sheila's nightdress. It was then put to Fletcher that the fact the gun was held in that position regardless, his claim was meaningless and he conceded.


Mr M.D Fletcher Cross Examined

Q: You postulated Mr. Fletcher, didn't you, that if the wounds were self-inflicted, the wounds to Mrs. Caffell, you would have expected to find traces of oil and firearms discharge on the front of her nightdress?

A: I did qualify that by saying if the wounds were self-inflicted, using a rifle held close to the body.

Q: You obviously worked out the approximate angles of fire, as explored?

A: I had looked at some possible angles of fire yes.
 
Q: You had seen the X-rays.

A: I am sorry I misunderstood. I thought you meant the ways of holding the gun rather than the track of the bullet. I beg your pardon, I see now yes.

Q: I think you have seen the sketches that we have put forward, which are agreed, yes?

A: Yes I have.

Q: Number 1 on the sketch is the contact wound.

A: Yes sir.

Q: With the gun held pointing at that angle would you expect residue on the nightdress.

A: You could certainly position the head and gun so that it would be possible to get residue on the nightdress.

Q: The point is surely Mr. Fletcher that it doesn't make any difference whatsoever whether the wound is self-inflicted or inflicted by anybody else, if the gun is held at a particular angle you might get residue on the nightdress?

A: If held in the correct position certainly. Close to the body at the correct angle for the projection of the bullet in the head.

Q: Why is that correct?

A: To fulfil the requirements for the residue to get on to the nightdress.

Q: It doesn't help us to be certain whether they were self-inflicted or inflicted by another person, does it?

A: It does give a particular set of circumstances. I am trying to tell you what I would expect to find. If some of those circumstances don't occur or were incorrect then my finding, are, as you say, not valid.

Q: Forgive me, I am probably being extremely stupid. Does it help at all? What I am suggesting to you is that it didn't help us at all in deciding whether the wounds were self-inflicted or not self-inflicted. The gun would have had to be in a particular angle to the body in order to deliver the wound in the direction it is in,in either case.

A: Yes.





What does this tell us?

    Sheila does not have to have oil and firearm residue on her nightdress.

    Fletcher was a halfwit.

    Adam has not researched the case properly(shock).

    The COA was unfairly prejudiced in what they put in their public summary.


Offline Adam

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 20710
Re: Sheila's first rifle load:
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2019, 05:10:PM »
Lets deal with Adam's obsession with oil and firearm residue on Sheila's nightdress.

Fletcher made this claim that if Sheila's wounds were self inflicted he would have expected to have found
residue on Sheila's nightdress. It was then put to Fletcher that the fact the gun was held in that position regardless, his claim was meaningless and he conceded.


Mr M.D Fletcher Cross Examined

Q: You postulated Mr. Fletcher, didn't you, that if the wounds were self-inflicted, the wounds to Mrs. Caffell, you would have expected to find traces of oil and firearms discharge on the front of her nightdress?

A: I did qualify that by saying if the wounds were self-inflicted, using a rifle held close to the body.

Q: You obviously worked out the approximate angles of fire, as explored?

A: I had looked at some possible angles of fire yes.
 
Q: You had seen the X-rays.

A: I am sorry I misunderstood. I thought you meant the ways of holding the gun rather than the track of the bullet. I beg your pardon, I see now yes.

Q: I think you have seen the sketches that we have put forward, which are agreed, yes?

A: Yes I have.

Q: Number 1 on the sketch is the contact wound.

A: Yes sir.

Q: With the gun held pointing at that angle would you expect residue on the nightdress.

A: You could certainly position the head and gun so that it would be possible to get residue on the nightdress.

Q: The point is surely Mr. Fletcher that it doesn't make any difference whatsoever whether the wound is self-inflicted or inflicted by anybody else, if the gun is held at a particular angle you might get residue on the nightdress?

A: If held in the correct position certainly. Close to the body at the correct angle for the projection of the bullet in the head.

Q: Why is that correct?

A: To fulfil the requirements for the residue to get on to the nightdress.

Q: It doesn't help us to be certain whether they were self-inflicted or inflicted by another person, does it?

A: It does give a particular set of circumstances. I am trying to tell you what I would expect to find. If some of those circumstances don't occur or were incorrect then my finding, are, as you say, not valid.

Q: Forgive me, I am probably being extremely stupid. Does it help at all? What I am suggesting to you is that it didn't help us at all in deciding whether the wounds were self-inflicted or not self-inflicted. The gun would have had to be in a particular angle to the body in order to deliver the wound in the direction it is in,in either case.

A: Yes.





What does this tell us?

    Sheila does not have to have oil and firearm residue on her nightdress.

    Fletcher was a halfwit.

    Adam has not researched the case properly(shock).

    The COA was unfairly prejudiced in what they put in their public summary.


Not obsessed with anything. Just given you 68 sourced pieces of forensic evidence. Most not disputed by the CT. The circumstantial evidence is too much to list.

You won't accept an industrial frame so have to accept guilt. You were a hardcore guilter before then changed claiming you were never convinced by Bamber's guilt.

Lookout is going by her gut feeling from 1985 & will never go by the evidence.

You have to follow Caroline. Agree Bamber is guilty but that you believe the silencer was fabricated by the relatives using wet period blood.

Putting up things in bold won't change a 33 year old conviction. 

Do you believe Sheila would have loaded the rifle while Nevill was asleep?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 05:19:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline lookout

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 40622
Re: Sheila's first rifle load:
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2019, 12:48:PM »
Gut-feeling---because there was nil evidence it had been JB. Either forensic or DNA.
What was to stop Sheila from putting in a couple of bullets at a time instead of using a spring-loaded magazine which would have ripped her nails off ?
 Afterall, loose bullets were found as well as an empty box upstairs that she'd have used to carry them in.

Offline Caroline

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 24149
Re: Sheila's first rifle load:
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2019, 02:27:PM »
Gut-feeling---because there was nil evidence it had been JB. Either forensic or DNA.
What was to stop Sheila from putting in a couple of bullets at a time instead of using a spring-loaded magazine which would have ripped her nails off ?
 Afterall, loose bullets were found as well as an empty box upstairs that she'd have used to carry them in.

Loose bullets weren't found upstairs.