Author Topic: Maurice Drake contradiction  (Read 1022 times)

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Offline David1819

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Maurice Drake contradiction
« on: August 20, 2019, 12:27:AM »
Maurice Drake in his summing up said -

"June Bamber appears to have been shot first in bed because of the bullet marks in the pillow. It seems she got out of the bed because of the blood pattern on the floor in her blood. Well Mr Arlidge puts in a speculation "Was she going round because she thought the bedroom telephone was still there?." Well, I would say - or was she going round because Sheila was dead on the floor there at that time? That is an equally credible speculation."

According to Drake June appears to have been shot first. Yet argues that June moved around the bed because Sheila may have already been lying there dead!  How then can June have been shot first?

This "credible speculation" also implies the defendant is guilty (because Sheila has to die last for the defendant to be innocent).

I think we can all unanimously agree on the following speculation -

June got out of bed and moved towards the door on her right. Because she wanted to get away from the person standing by the door to her left that was trying to shoot and kill her.



Offline Jane

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Re: Maurice Drake contradiction
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2019, 08:15:AM »
Maurice Drake in his summing up said -

"June Bamber appears to have been shot first in bed because of the bullet marks in the pillow. It seems she got out of the bed because of the blood pattern on the floor in her blood. Well Mr Arlidge puts in a speculation "Was she going round because she thought the bedroom telephone was still there?." Well, I would say - or was she going round because Sheila was dead on the floor there at that time? That is an equally credible speculation."

According to Drake June appears to have been shot first. Yet argues that June moved around the bed because Sheila may have already been lying there dead!  How then can June have been shot first?

This "credible speculation" also implies the defendant is guilty (because Sheila has to die last for the defendant to be innocent).

I think we can all unanimously agree on the following speculation -

June got out of bed and moved towards the door on her right. Because she wanted to get away from the person standing by the door to her left that was trying to shoot and kill her.


NO! You're misinterpreting what was written. Deliberately? It's not claiming that June was the first person to be shot, it's claiming that she received her first shot(s) whilst she was still laying down.

Offline David1819

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Re: Maurice Drake contradiction
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2019, 09:02:AM »

NO! You're misinterpreting what was written. Deliberately? It's not claiming that June was the first person to be shot, it's claiming that she received her first shot(s) whilst she was still laying down.

Well done! I didn't read that part properly  :-[

Do you agree with my reason for why she moved?

Offline Jane

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Re: Maurice Drake contradiction
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2019, 12:31:PM »
Well done! I didn't read that part properly  :-[

Do you agree with my reason for why she moved?


Actually, this may be the first time that the opposing beliefs are in agreement. If Sheila had killed her family then committed suicide, it stand to reason she'd have been the last to die. If it had been set up to look as if Sheila had killed the family and committed suicide, the killer would have almost certainly have killed her last.

Re June's last movements. Unless there is credible evidence -I'm sure someone will tell me- of June's blood trail between her and Sheila -was she not shot in the legs? Might that have made difficult/impossible a walk of that distance?- it's perfectly reasonable to speculate that she may have been heading for the door to the landing.

I can't help but feel that something must have gone wrong with a planned scenario. Whilst I get that the suggestion of Sheila being the killer was thought to have been necessary, a bit more thought might have allowed her to die with her children and made her 'guilt' more convincing.

Offline Caroline

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Re: Maurice Drake contradiction
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2019, 01:17:PM »
Maurice Drake in his summing up said -

"June Bamber appears to have been shot first in bed because of the bullet marks in the pillow. It seems she got out of the bed because of the blood pattern on the floor in her blood. Well Mr Arlidge puts in a speculation "Was she going round because she thought the bedroom telephone was still there?." Well, I would say - or was she going round because Sheila was dead on the floor there at that time? That is an equally credible speculation."

According to Drake June appears to have been shot first. Yet argues that June moved around the bed because Sheila may have already been lying there dead!  How then can June have been shot first?

This "credible speculation" also implies the defendant is guilty (because Sheila has to die last for the defendant to be innocent).

I think we can all unanimously agree on the following speculation -

June got out of bed and moved towards the door on her right. Because she wanted to get away from the person standing by the door to her left that was trying to shoot and kill her.

He said 'shot' NOT killed! Given that he wasn't there, he made a scenario - much like the rest of us. June had clearly been shot before moving around the bed because of the blood trial on the bedroom carpet!
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Offline Caroline

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Re: Maurice Drake contradiction
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2019, 01:25:PM »

Actually, this may be the first time that the opposing beliefs are in agreement. If Sheila had killed her family then committed suicide, it stand to reason she'd have been the last to die. If it had been set up to look as if Sheila had killed the family and committed suicide, the killer would have almost certainly have killed her last.

Re June's last movements. Unless there is credible evidence -I'm sure someone will tell me- of June's blood trail between her and Sheila -was she not shot in the legs? Might that have made difficult/impossible a walk of that distance?- it's perfectly reasonable to speculate that she may have been heading for the door to the landing.

I can't help but feel that something must have gone wrong with a planned scenario. Whilst I get that the suggestion of Sheila being the killer was thought to have been necessary, a bit more thought might have allowed her to die with her children and made her 'guilt' more convincing.

June was shot once in the leg but she was heading the wrong way to the landing, unless she was trying to get there via the twins room. However, there is no way we can ever know what really took place and it will always be a best guess and that is very much subjective.
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Offline David1819

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Re: Maurice Drake contradiction
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2019, 05:22:PM »

Actually, this may be the first time that the opposing beliefs are in agreement. If Sheila had killed her family then committed suicide, it stand to reason she'd have been the last to die. If it had been set up to look as if Sheila had killed the family and committed suicide, the killer would have almost certainly have killed her last.

Re June's last movements. Unless there is credible evidence -I'm sure someone will tell me- of June's blood trail between her and Sheila -was she not shot in the legs? Might that have made difficult/impossible a walk of that distance?- it's perfectly reasonable to speculate that she may have been heading for the door to the landing.

I can't help but feel that something must have gone wrong with a planned scenario. Whilst I get that the suggestion of Sheila being the killer was thought to have been necessary, a bit more thought might have allowed her to die with her children and made her 'guilt' more convincing.

June was shot 5 times in bed. She then got out the bed and headed towards the door leading to the twins room. She then turned around and headed back towards the other door (where the shooter was)

My belief is she simply tried to get away from the shooter. And once she realised the shooter was gone she tried to go after the shooter (knowing the shooters identity). She then collapsed by the door.

The shooter returns later to inflict two fatal head shots.

As for Sheila needing to be with the twins, I cannot find anything to support the notion. Neither did the prosecution use her location as found as an argument for their case.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 05:45:PM by David1819 »

Offline Jane

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Re: Maurice Drake contradiction
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2019, 06:16:PM »
June was shot 5 times in bed. She then got out the bed and headed towards the door leading to the twins room. She then turned around and headed back towards the other door (where the shooter was)

My belief is she simply tried to get away from the shooter. And once she realised the shooter was gone she tried to go after the shooter (knowing the shooters identity). She then collapsed by the door.

The shooter returns later to inflict two fatal head shots.

As for Sheila needing to be with the twins, I cannot find anything to support the notion. Neither did the prosecution use her location as found as an argument for their case.


Mmm, but it's speculation, isn't it? She had potential access to two doors. One in front of her, to the left of the end of the bed, the other to her right when she was laying in bed. If the killer returned to inflict the fatal wounds, to me, it makes it even less likely that Sheila was responsible. I suspect the only thing you'd need to support the notion that a loving mother would choose to die with her children rather than the mother who'd devalued her all her life, is the ability to think like a loving mother, especially one who's gone through hell to have them. I think Dr Ferguson supports her obvious love for her boys. Why would her final position have been of any interest to the prosecution? It was Jeremy who was on trial, not Sheila.

Offline Caroline

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Re: Maurice Drake contradiction
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2019, 07:23:PM »

Mmm, but it's speculation, isn't it? She had potential access to two doors. One in front of her, to the left of the end of the bed, the other to her right when she was laying in bed. If the killer returned to inflict the fatal wounds, to me, it makes it even less likely that Sheila was responsible. I suspect the only thing you'd need to support the notion that a loving mother would choose to die with her children rather than the mother who'd devalued her all her life, is the ability to think like a loving mother, especially one who's gone through hell to have them. I think Dr Ferguson supports her obvious love for her boys. Why would her final position have been of any interest to the prosecution? It was Jeremy who was on trial, not Sheila.

I agree Jane, why would she have shot herself 'there'? Someone who didn't understand relationships might not even think about position and where the person might choose to die if they shot themselves - such a person isn't able to relate to such things and has no empathy!
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Online Steve_uk

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Re: Maurice Drake contradiction
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2019, 08:36:PM »
I agree Jane, why would she have shot herself 'there'? Someone who didn't understand relationships might not even think about position and where the person might choose to die if they shot themselves - such a person isn't able to relate to such things and has no empathy!
Yes and he couldn't risk them waking up and running around, so in all likelihood they were shot first.

Offline Caroline

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Re: Maurice Drake contradiction
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2019, 08:59:PM »
Yes and he couldn't risk them waking up and running around, so in all likelihood they were shot first.

I agree Steve.
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Offline David1819

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Re: Maurice Drake contradiction
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2019, 09:38:PM »

Mmm, but it's speculation, isn't it? She had potential access to two doors. One in front of her, to the left of the end of the bed, the other to her right when she was laying in bed. If the killer returned to inflict the fatal wounds, to me, it makes it even less likely that Sheila was responsible. I suspect the only thing you'd need to support the notion that a loving mother would choose to die with her children rather than the mother who'd devalued her all her life, is the ability to think like a loving mother, especially one who's gone through hell to have them. I think Dr Ferguson supports her obvious love for her boys. Why would her final position have been of any interest to the prosecution? It was Jeremy who was on trial, not Sheila.

If Sheila being found in a room other than the twins is indicative of murder, then the prosecution would have it admitted into evidence.

From what I have read so far on suspicious or staged suicide's. There is no emphasis put on the location or the proximity of other deceased people at the scene.

The only way I can think of a room making a suicide suspicious is if someone is supposed to have killed themselves with carbon monoxide poisoning but the room they are found in has a fume extractor ventilation system running.  :-\
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 10:22:AM by David1819 »

Offline Caroline

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Re: Maurice Drake contradiction
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2019, 10:06:PM »
If Sheila being found in a room other than the twins is indicative murder, then the prosecution would have it admitted it into evidence.

From what I have read so far on suspicious or staged suicide's. There is no emphasis put on the location or the proximity of other deceased people at the scene.

The only way I can think of a room making a suicide suspicious is if someone is supposed to have killed themselves with carbon monoxide poisoning but the room they are found in has a fume extractor ventilation system running.  :-\

I guess most people here (and elsewhere) agree with you?  ::)
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Offline Jane

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Re: Maurice Drake contradiction
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2019, 10:21:PM »
If Sheila being found in a room other than the twins is indicative murder, then the prosecution would have it admitted it into evidence.

From what I have read so far on suspicious or staged suicide's. There is no emphasis put on the location or the proximity of other deceased people at the scene.

The only way I can think of a room making a suicide suspicious is if someone is supposed to have killed themselves with carbon monoxide poisoning but the room they are found in has a fume extractor ventilation system running.  :-\


It sounds as if you're saying that finding a family shot to death and one member holding a gun, it wouldn't cross your mind that you were looking at murder/suicide. Dear me! Jeremy went to all that trouble setting the scene for nothing?

I'm really not sure what you're trying to lead us to draw from "If Sheila being found in a room other than the twins is indicative murder, the prosecution would have it admitted into evidence". The prosecution weren't prosecuting Sheila. They had 4 other bodies to reference. There was no need for them to claim that if Sheila had been the killer she'd have died with her children because they weren't claiming/hinting that she may have been responsible. Sheila was dispatched with the same bullets that killed her parents and children, the only difference being that she was killed in a way which would make it appear that she'd committed suicide, the gun laid across her for emphasis.

Offline Adam

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Re: Maurice Drake contradiction
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2019, 10:05:AM »
A possible order of the bullets from Bamber is -

2 shots into the twins.

5 shots into June.

4 shots into Nevill.


Reload.


4 shots into Nevill.

6 shots into the twins.

1 shot into June.


Reload

1 shot into June

2 shots into Sheila.

---------

Julie said the twins were shot first but I don't believe he would fire 8 bullets into them. One bullet each would at the least negate them & probably kill them.

He returned to fire more bullets into the twins to make sure,  after it took 15 bullets to kill June & Nevill. Firing more bullets into the twins also makes it seem like a crazy killer.

Julie also said Sheila was shot last which was his only option. Bamber had to take his time with Sheila to try to kill her with one bullet. He panicked after the first shot as Sheila was still breathing & everyone else needed several bullets. So fired a second shot.
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