Author Topic: Alex Salmond Rape Charge.  (Read 3781 times)

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Offline Real Justice

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Re: Alex Salmond Rape Charge.
« Reply #165 on: March 25, 2021, 06:53:PM »
Well it depends.  You may think you are being plain, but I don't think you are.  You aren't actually explaining to me what her duties are.  She could have been a Nobel Prize winner for all I care, it doesn't follow she's under a duty to report certain things.  She may be, though, and if she is, then what is the duty and how does it arise and in what circumstances?  Being a law-abiding citizen and holding a university degree doesn't quite cut it for me.  I assume her status as a solicitor is comparable to that of a solicitor in England & Wales, in that she is an officer of the court if still on the Roll, but that doesn't mean she has to report people under these circumstances.

There's also the prior question of what we're assuming Nicola Sturgeon should have known.  I raised this before and you didn't answer.  Is she supposed to have had concerns about his behaviour, or known of the concerns of others, or known of allegations, or what?

It's also in the nature of this sort of behaviour that it is open to interpretation.  First, it's not been established in any neutral forum that Alex Salmond actually behaved in a criminal way, or even in a discriminatory or harassing way.  He may have done certain unseemly and inappropriate things, like touching a woman's leg or making inappropriate remarks or whatever, but that's not necessarily in itself criminal or harassing, even when it is repeated with different people.  It may seem obvious that it is, but it isn't.

He may have touched a woman, for instance, because he liked her and wanted sex with her.  The state, even in Scotland, does not quite yet micro-regulate sexual relations, so he is free to do this.  She is equally free to refuse and/or slap his face and/or pour beer over him and/or if she likes, complain - normal things that have happened since pubs and offices were first invented.

Did any of these women complain promptly?  If someone did, then whether Nicola Sturgeon knows or not seems irrelevant.  Since there was a complaint, the question of Nicola Sturgeon's cognisance is a nugatory point.  If there was no complaint, how is that the responsibility of Nicola Sturgeon in particular to initiate one or remember incidents of behaviour that are open to interpretation?  Wouldn't she be lying?  And couldn't she then be accused of going after Alex Salmond? 

If there is a statutory duty on an employer in these circumstances, then I should think it rests with the Devolved Civil Service, assuming these women were civil servants; or if they were SNP officials, then the complaints should have gone through whatever are the personnel channels of the SNP - normally paid officials working for the party chairman, which is how most political parties work in the UK.  I doubt an elected SNP politician would deal with such matters, for a number of good reasons.  Their role is political, not administrative.  You're not seriously suggesting that complaints should have gone to one of Salmond's political colleagues?

I'm afraid I think both the allegations against Salmond and against Sturgeon appear to be exaggerated nonsense.  I'm sure Nicola Sturgeon had it in for Alex Salmond and Alex Salmond is duly obliging us by demonstrating that he has it in for Nicola Sturgeon, risking his own liberty and reputation in the process when he should be thanking his lucky stars and keeping his mouth shut.
I said it was Plain to me not that I’ve made myself plain and I don’t want or expect everyone to agree with me,  I do respect your position and your logic, I can’t explain it any better than I have and I personally don’t think I’m too far off the truth, I might be way off the mark like you and Steve think, but I draw a similar conclusion to what the Commission have said!

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Alex Salmond Rape Charge.
« Reply #166 on: March 25, 2021, 07:58:PM »
That is utter rubbish.  You have obviously not even bothered to read the press reports about what the allegations in fact were.  There was no suggestion that he "wanted to get his leg over with nine women when he was alone with them at Holyrood".  That is wrong in several ways and therefore completely discredits your argument.
I haven't had time to read every word, but he said she said allegations are always difficult to prove, and the jury gave a man who has enormous stature in Scotland the benefit of the doubt. This is a personal issue to myself and I feel strongly that plaintiffs are to be believed, after experiencing so much anguish to get the matter to court, let alone the trauma of the abuse itself. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/mar/09/alex-salmond-believes-women-consented-to-sexual-contact-jury-hears

Offline QCChevalier

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Re: Alex Salmond Rape Charge.
« Reply #167 on: March 25, 2021, 08:44:PM »
I haven't had time to read every word, but he said she said allegations are always difficult to prove, and the jury gave a man who has enormous stature in Scotland the benefit of the doubt. This is a personal issue to myself and I feel strongly that plaintiffs are to be believed, after experiencing so much anguish to get the matter to court, let alone the trauma of the abuse itself. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/mar/09/alex-salmond-believes-women-consented-to-sexual-contact-jury-hears

But the complainants were disbelieved by a Scottish jury.  I appreciate that, in general, acquittal does not always mean innocence, and, again in general, we can't always conclude from an acquittal that the complainant was lying.  But in this case, acquittal has to be interpreted as rebuttal.  That's the flip side of the coin: if you can convict a man on the say-so of a complainant, then you can equally conclude, in those circumstances, that an acquittal implies that the allegation was not only flawed and untrue, but also false. 

At least two of the complainants had their stories ripped to shreds by the defence.  I do find it difficult to come to any conclusion other than that the more serious allegations were either exaggerations of real incidents or just outright lies.  One also has to wonder what these women were doing allowing themselves in close proximity to Alex Salmond in private and intimate situations, if he had such a reputation.

I'm afraid I also disagree with you about believing complainants.  I am of the view that complaints in sexual cases should always be met with scepticism.  It's a very serious allegation, and also very easy to make such an allegation on the flimsiest basis.  A lot of women sleep with men they are not attracted to and then regret it and worry about their reputation and what people will say.  They then sometimes make up or exaggerate what occurred in an effort to make it seem as if they were coerced into the situation.

I also oppose giving complainants anonymity, which I believe undermines a fair trial.

I wish to add that I consider rape to be a vile crime and I know that some complaints of rape and sexual assault are true.  I suspect the majority are not, but those that are true should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and the perpetrators should be punished with severity.  Equally, I believe women who invent allegations against men should face justice and consequences as criminals.

Online ngb1066

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Re: Alex Salmond Rape Charge.
« Reply #168 on: March 25, 2021, 08:46:PM »
But the complainants were disbelieved by a Scottish jury.  I appreciate that, in general, acquittal does not always mean innocence, and, again in general, we can't always conclude from an acquittal that the complainant was lying.  But in this case, acquittal has to be interpreted as rebuttal.  That's the flip side of the coin: if you can convict a man on the say-so of a complainant, then you can equally conclude, in those circumstances, that an acquittal implies that the allegation was not only flawed and untrue, but also false. 

At least two of the complainants had their stories ripped to shreds by the defence.  I do find it difficult to come to any conclusion other than that the more serious allegations were either exaggerations of real incidents or just outright lies.  One also has to wonder what these women were doing allowing themselves in close proximity to Alex Salmond in private and intimate situations, if he had such a reputation.

I'm afraid I also disagree with you about believing complainants.  I am of the view that complaints in sexual cases should always be met with scepticism.  It's a very serious allegation, and also very easy to make such an allegation on the flimsiest basis.  A lot of women sleep with men they are not attracted to and then regret it and worry about their reputation and what people will say.  They then sometimes make up or exaggerate what occurred in an effort to make it seem as if they were coerced into the situation.

I also oppose giving complainants anonymity, which I believe undermines a fair trial.

I wish to add that I consider rape to be a vile crime and I know that some complaints of rape and sexual assault are true.  I suspect the majority are not, but those that are true should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and the perpetrators should be punished with severity.  Equally, I believe women who invent allegations against men should face justice and consequences as criminals.

That is a well argued and balanced post.  Overall I agree with almost all you say here.


Offline Real Justice

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Re: Alex Salmond Rape Charge.
« Reply #169 on: March 26, 2021, 02:55:PM »
Looks like I was correct about Salmond’s resurrection as a political figure?

Alex Salmond launches Alba party to rival SNP after civil war with Nicola Sturgeon vowing to stand candidates in May elections

Online lookout

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Re: Alex Salmond Rape Charge.
« Reply #170 on: March 26, 2021, 03:29:PM »
Well there you are ! If he'd fallen down the lavvy he'd have come up with a rope of pearls. What is it about these politicians ?
« Last Edit: March 26, 2021, 04:43:PM by lookout »

Offline Real Justice

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Re: Alex Salmond Rape Charge.
« Reply #171 on: March 26, 2021, 03:57:PM »
Well there you are ! If he'd fallen down the lavvy he'd had come up with a rope of pearls. What is it about these politicians ?
Its a Nigel Farage trick and Brexit Lookout!

Online lookout

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Re: Alex Salmond Rape Charge.
« Reply #172 on: March 26, 2021, 04:45:PM »
Its a Nigel Farage trick and Brexit Lookout!





No doubt laughing boy would have had a hand in it somewhere, along with Brexit.

Offline QCChevalier

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Re: Alex Salmond Rape Charge.
« Reply #173 on: March 27, 2021, 12:08:PM »
Is the supermajority strategy of Alex Salmond's new Alba Party an attempt to circumvent the need for a plebiscite?

https://www.albaparty.org/supermajority

Online ngb1066

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Re: Alex Salmond Rape Charge.
« Reply #174 on: March 27, 2021, 12:35:PM »
Is the supermajority strategy of Alex Salmond's new Alba Party an attempt to circumvent the need for a plebiscite?

https://www.albaparty.org/supermajority

Yes it is.


Offline QCChevalier

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Re: Alex Salmond Rape Charge.
« Reply #175 on: March 27, 2021, 12:54:PM »
Yes it is.

If so, I don't believe it will work.  Surely the UK government would simply argue that a large parliamentary majority for the SNP and Alba combined does not necessarily imply popular consent for independence, and in international law, there would be nothing to gainsay this. 

Perhaps the plan is to use a supermajority in the Scottish Parliament to organise an unofficial referendum, along the lines of what happened in Catalonia, but unless the referendum has official status, it's a dangerous route that can only encourage divisiveness and confrontation.   

Another concern I would have about a supermajority strategy, if I lived in Scotland, is that it smacks of parliamentary elitism of the kind that you see on the Continent under the proportional electoral systems that exist in most countries there, whereby two or three establishment parties - sometimes in direct ideological opposition to each other - conjoin to form governing coalitions that stifle proper adversarial politics.  It's one reason I oppose proportional representation.  An SNP-Alba sounds to me like a nightmare from The Twilight Zone.  Wouldn't they use that position to rig and gerrymander everything in Scotland to their advantage?  Isn't that why we have First Past The Post, in that while it gives one party supremacy for a while, it also provides the opportunity to upturn the system completely?
« Last Edit: March 27, 2021, 03:09:PM by QCChevalier »

Offline Real Justice

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Re: Alex Salmond Rape Charge.
« Reply #176 on: March 27, 2021, 03:07:PM »
If so, I don't believe it will work.  Surely the UK government would simply argue that a large parliamentary majority for the SNP and Alba combined does not necessarily imply popular consent for independence, and in international law, there would be nothing to gainsay this. 

Perhaps the plan is to use a supermajority in the Scottish Parliament to organise an unofficial referendum, along the lines of what happened in Catalonia, but unless the referendum has official status, it's a dangerous route that can only encourage divisiveness and confrontation.   

Another concern I would have about a supermajority strategy, if I lived in Scotland, is that it smacks of parliamentary elitism of the kind that you see on the Continent under the proportional electoral systems that exist in most countries here, whereby two or three establishment parties - sometimes in direct ideological opposition to each other - conjoin to form governing coalitions that stifle proper adversarial politics.  It's one reason I oppose proportional representation.  An SNP-Alba sounds to me like a nightmare from The Twilight Zone.  Wouldn't they use that position to rig and gerrymander everything in Scotland to their advantage?  Isn't that why we have First Past The Post, in that while it gives one party supremacy for a while, it also provides the opportunity to upturn the system completely?
Totally agree, not only that, how do you you vote for someone with serious questions to answer about it’s leader's suitability for public office?  I mean both of them Sturgeon and Salmond.   I see Kenny MacAskill  Westminster MP from SNP has defected to join him. 

Offline Real Justice

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Re: Alex Salmond Rape Charge.
« Reply #177 on: March 28, 2021, 02:27:PM »
Totally agree, not only that, how do you you vote for someone with serious questions to answer about it’s leader's suitability for public office?  I mean both of them Sturgeon and Salmond.   I see Kenny MacAskill  Westminster MP from SNP has defected to join him.
Neale Hanvey, who represents Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath at Westminster, declared that he is joining Alba and will be a candidate at Hoylrood elections in May.


Another one joins him, it’s popcorn time at the moment in Scotland Politics.