Author Topic: Alex Salmond Rape Charge.  (Read 1094 times)

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Offline gringo

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Re: Re: Alex Salmond Rape Charge.
« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2020, 05:55:PM »
Didn't he say he should have been more careful about their space? Why did he tell Ms F a story about a penis? He is a sex pest if nothing else.
   Why did Ms. F retell the tale later with much joviality, if it constituted some nefarious intent when AS told it? Why do you ignore the context that he related the same tale to all visitors to Bute House when showing them around, male and female? What is this story, Steve, that constitutes the label of sex pest so we can all judge? Do you know, or is the fact that it had a penis in it the extent of your knowledge?
    Saying that you should be more careful of people's space means what, exactly, in your imagination?
    It's just innuendo.
    Calling him a sex pest is probably libellous.
     
 

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Re: Alex Salmond Rape Charge.
« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2020, 06:03:PM »
   Why did Ms. F retell the tale later with much joviality, if it constituted some nefarious intent when AS told it? Why do you ignore the context that he related the same tale to all visitors to Bute House when showing them around, male and female? What is this story, Steve, that constitutes the label of sex pest so we can all judge? Do you know, or is the fact that it had a penis in it the extent of your knowledge?
    Saying that you should be more careful of people's space means what, exactly, in your imagination?
    It's just innuendo.
    Calling him a sex pest is probably libellous.
   
As I say you have to put yourself in the position of these women, probably overawed by Mr. Salmond's status and not wishing to rock the boat. It's quite common for allegations of abuse not to be reported at the time. If a victim after a passage of time feels that there's a chance of being believed then that's the time they are more likely to come forward.

As for the Alex Salmond innuendo, I'll leave that to your imagination as to what he would have liked to have happened with these women.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2020, 06:04:PM by Steve_uk »

Offline gringo

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Re: Re: Alex Salmond Rape Charge.
« Reply #47 on: March 24, 2020, 06:13:PM »
As I say you have to put yourself in the position of these women, probably overawed by Mr. Salmond's status and not wishing to rock the boat. It's quite common for allegations of abuse not to be reported at the time. If a victim after a passage of time feels that there's a chance of being believed then that's the time they are more likely to come forward.

As for the Alex Salmond innuendo, I'll leave that to your imagination as to what he would have liked to have happened with these women.
  I think Craig has answered this (to some extent). The allegations were never intended to fall into the hands of Polis Scotland.
The allegations were to be held in a file in SNP headquarters, to be used only if Salmond attempted a comeback. This aspect is clear from the testimony in Court. If Salmond submitted himself as a candidate, headquarters would contact the branch and warn of “worrisome allegations in secret files”.
The stories were shoddily flung together with repeated use of curious wording among the conspirators (shots of wine) because they weren’t supposed to be forensically dissected in a Court of Law.
The existence of the conspiracy in the form of the Whatsapp group was only uncovered by the Polis when the conspirators phones were examined (I don’t know how Craig is sure of this aspect). When the Polis uncovered the internal SNP allegations, the conspirators were compelled to stand by them or face possible repercussions.
In short, the conspirators were too clever by half.
Genius has its limitations, stupidity is not thus encumbered.

     The above is a comment from Craig Murray blog today by a commenter calling him/herself Vivion O'Blivion and should offer some clues as to what you are missing.
     A jury with a majority of women in a city against independence found AS not guilty.
     
« Last Edit: March 24, 2020, 06:19:PM by gringo »

Offline gringo

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Re: Alex Salmond Rape Charge.
« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2020, 06:36:PM »
     The messages which couldn't be discussed in court because they weren't from a complainer. Who do you think sent them? What is their content?
     Who is Nicola Sturgeon married to? What is his position in the SNP?
     Not saying that they are connected, just some questions that spring to mind.

Offline ngb1066

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Re: Alex Salmond Rape Charge.
« Reply #49 on: March 24, 2020, 09:34:PM »
     The messages which couldn't be discussed in court because they weren't from a complainer. Who do you think sent them? What is their content?
     Who is Nicola Sturgeon married to? What is his position in the SNP?
     Not saying that they are connected, just some questions that spring to mind.

You make very powerful points gringo.  This will not go away and the repercussions of this within the SNP are going to be huge.


Offline gringo

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Re: Alex Salmond Rape Charge.
« Reply #50 on: March 24, 2020, 11:06:PM »
You make very powerful points gringo.  This will not go away and the repercussions of this within the SNP are going to be huge.
    Thanks, NGB. I have followed with more than a passing interest since the accusations were made. The ultimate aim of this conspiracy was to have AS jailed for a long time. He will respond forcefully and effectively in my view.
    Personally, I have some time for AS but regardless of ones view of him, as I said earlier, he is a very able and effective political operator who scares the shit out of the UK establishment.
    The end of this trial marks the beginning of the real story.

Offline maggie

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Re: Alex Salmond Rape Charge.
« Reply #51 on: March 25, 2020, 09:23:AM »
    Thanks, NGB. I have followed with more than a passing interest since the accusations were made. The ultimate aim of this conspiracy was to have AS jailed for a long time. He will respond forcefully and effectively in my view.
    Personally, I have some time for AS but regardless of ones view of him, as I said earlier, he is a very able and effective political operator who scares the shit out of the UK establishment.
    The end of this trial marks the beginning of the real story.
Thanks gringo, very interesting.  Must admit have not followed the case closely for various reasons but am quite open to your thinking, you obviously have followed the case closely.  Many questions to be asked and answered but sure there will be a huge effort to bury the truth with corona virus.


Offline gringo

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Re: Alex Salmond Rape Charge.
« Reply #53 on: March 26, 2020, 01:35:AM »
    There is absolutely nothing of substance in any of your posts on this thread, Steve, just innuendo and articles which are shallow. You are aware of one side of the story, as usual, and only half of that.
   Your innuendo regarding what you refer to as, "a story about a penis" made in an earlier post shows that you care little for facts. I gave you the opportunity to clarify what this tale was but you have declined to do so. The relating of this tale by AS was an example used by you to show the reasoning behind  your un/balanced views that he is,according to you, a sex pest.
   The story is in fact about a drunk (unnamed to us) journalist who was passed out and exposed beneath the picture where the tale was related. Other witnesses made clear that this tale was told to all visitors who AS invariably showed around Bute House whilst relating it's history.
   To reduce the story and context so much that you end up with the sleazy innuendo that you, and others, draw from this says more about you than AS, if you think about it.
   I would say it was a story about a drunk journalist exposing himself unwittingly.
   To you it's a story about a penis.
   Revealing isn't it.

Offline gringo

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Re: Alex Salmond Rape Charge.
« Reply #54 on: March 26, 2020, 01:50:AM »
http://archive.is/aDdVn 

    Very enlightening for those interested.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Alex Salmond Rape Charge.
« Reply #55 on: March 26, 2020, 08:01:AM »
    There is absolutely nothing of substance in any of your posts on this thread, Steve, just innuendo and articles which are shallow. You are aware of one side of the story, as usual, and only half of that.
   Your innuendo regarding what you refer to as, "a story about a penis" made in an earlier post shows that you care little for facts. I gave you the opportunity to clarify what this tale was but you have declined to do so. The relating of this tale by AS was an example used by you to show the reasoning behind  your un/balanced views that he is,according to you, a sex pest.
   The story is in fact about a drunk (unnamed to us) journalist who was passed out and exposed beneath the picture where the tale was related. Other witnesses made clear that this tale was told to all visitors who AS invariably showed around Bute House whilst relating it's history.
   To reduce the story and context so much that you end up with the sleazy innuendo that you, and others, draw from this says more about you than AS, if you think about it.
   I would say it was a story about a drunk journalist exposing himself unwittingly.
   To you it's a story about a penis.
   Revealing isn't it.
You see I don't accept the thrust of the conspiracy argument that these allegations have been made to prevent Alex Salmond from returning to some kind of prominent position in Scottish politics. His career in that domain was effectively over after the No vote in the referendum of 2014. Leaving aside why someone would lie after swearing on the Holy Bible it's the sheer number of allegations by nine separate women which is perturbing. To invade someone's space in the workplace by touching their hair, nose, buttocks, kissing on the lips may seem trivial, but it would not be acceptable in any other day-to-day working environment such as a school or factory and I don't see why it's brushed off just because of the position he held.

It's interesting to note that the allegation of rape was the one charge where the "not proven" verdict was returned.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2020, 08:03:AM by Steve_uk »

Offline susan

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Re: Alex Salmond Rape Charge.
« Reply #56 on: March 26, 2020, 02:03:PM »
Hi Gringo thanks for posting this article I found it very interesting and I cannot wait for his book.  I must add I was delighted he was found "not guilty" some of the evidence I heard was ridiculous. Stay safe my friend.

Offline gringo

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Re: Alex Salmond Rape Charge.
« Reply #57 on: March 26, 2020, 03:39:PM »
Hi Gringo thanks for posting this article I found it very interesting and I cannot wait for his book.  I must add I was delighted he was found "not guilty" some of the evidence I heard was ridiculous. Stay safe my friend.
   The book is hotly anticipated, Susan. The evidence was ridiculous because it was never meant to be exposed to the rigorous questioning a trial would bring.
    Questions that remain are why were the SNP leadership sitting on information that was supposedly criminal, but was only to be used if necessary? When would it be necessary? Why, if the allegations were criminal, were they not reported to the police? The case was a shambles and the not guilty verdicts were not unexpected to those following the trial.
    The media, as usual, had their own narrative ready and the reporting was so one sided and biased that it is no surprise that many expected guilty verdicts.
    The jury heard all the evidence. They saw the allegations fall apart, they saw that the prosecution basically conceded the case by having no questions for the defence witnesses, whose accounts could not be true if the accusers were to be believed. All of the defence evidence destroying the credibility and truthfulness of the prosecution allegations. Left to stand, unchallenged. That is conceding defeat but I don't remember the media mentioning any of this.
    The prosecution was in tatters by the end of the trial but none of this was reported impartially by any mainstream media outlet.
    Anyone left clinging to the media narrative still, do so only because they want it to be true.
    Keeping safe, hope you are too.
     

Offline gringo

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Re: Alex Salmond Rape Charge.
« Reply #58 on: March 26, 2020, 03:40:PM »
Thanks gringo, very interesting.  Must admit have not followed the case closely for various reasons but am quite open to your thinking, you obviously have followed the case closely.  Many questions to be asked and answered but sure there will be a huge effort to bury the truth with corona virus.
    Truth is patient, Maggie.

Offline gringo

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Re: Alex Salmond Rape Charge.
« Reply #59 on: March 26, 2020, 07:42:PM »
You see I don't accept the thrust of the conspiracy argument that these allegations have been made to prevent Alex Salmond from returning to some kind of prominent position in Scottish politics. His career in that domain was effectively over after the No vote in the referendum of 2014. Leaving aside why someone would lie after swearing on the Holy Bible it's the sheer number of allegations by nine separate women which is perturbing. To invade someone's space in the workplace by touching their hair, nose, buttocks, kissing on the lips may seem trivial, but it would not be acceptable in any other day-to-day working environment such as a school or factory and I don't see why it's brushed off just because of the position he held.

It's interesting to note that the allegation of rape was the one charge where the "not proven" verdict was returned.
   You don't accept the thrust of the conspiracy argument because you don't want to. Instead of ignoring the new facts, you would alter your opinion to include the new information if you were being honest.
   1) Your evidence free opinion that Salmond has no chance/intention of a political comeback is contradicted by reports even in mainstream media and statements by some leading SNP politicians.
   2) It is not debatable that some witnesses lied after swearing on oath. What kind of weak argument is this? It's just that you prefer to believe that defence witnesses rather than prosecution witnesses lied. It is also clear that many incidents were given a more sinister framing than the reality.
   3) You state, "To invade someone's space in the workplace by touching their hair, nose, buttocks, kissing on the lips, may seem trivial, but it would not be acceptable in any other day to day working environment..."
   The hair touching incident was known as some kind of running joke in the office. Others testified that all in the office tugged her tight curly hair which sprung back. It was a joke that all including the complainant were comfortable with. You may ask yourself why none of these other incidents involving others doing the same thing became sexual assault allegations some years after the event.
   The other incidents are similar or denied. Specifically the touching the buttocks allegation is absurd and again made years after the event.These are all allegations that some in the SNP had spent much time and resources acquiring by way of a huge fishing trip only to sit on them to deploy when required.
   The standard of proof required to smear someone in a political selection battle is decidedly lower than that required to convict in a criminal trial. Sexual allegations obtained by fishing, not reported despite being criminal, sat on to be used as required, case falls apart as prosecution tacitly accepts the defence evidence. Are you there yet, Steve? It was a political smear job to be deployed when Salmond makes his return to frontline politics.
    4) Your final point displays nothing but your unwillingness to accept the truth. What do you think the not proven verdict means? There were 13 jurors with 8 required for a majority verdict. So 8 or more of the 13 decided not guilty or not proven. At the most, 5 jurors thought him guilty. At least 8 didn't.

    Finally, I must admit given the definitions accepted by you, that I have probably been both the perpetrator and victim of a number of sexual assaults over the years. I have also witnessed other people committing sexual assaults by touching others noses and hair and even kissing on the lips unsolicited. Context is everything though, Steve, something the jury and others see but which passes you by, deliberately I suspect, although I don't entirely rule out the alternative.