Author Topic: The Soiled underwear belonging to Sheila - catalyst for foul play!  (Read 25776 times)

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Offline Caroline

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Re: The Soiled underwear belonging to Sheila - catalyst for foul play!
« Reply #135 on: August 04, 2019, 11:40:AM »
I'm struggling to understand how "quite a few people" thought/still think? such blood could be extricated from previously soaked garments, regardless of what the garments were. Eg, quite naturally, the garment, already having shed some blood content from having been soaked in water which may very possibly have had some sort of detergent added to it, would have needed to be dried prior to the removal of the 'material', after which the likelihood of collecting "a flake" becomes seriously diminished. Then there is the fact that dried blood oxidises very quickly and bears no resemblance to the "blob of jam" it was claimed to. Short of a family member having a Phd in science or being able to persuade a friendly scientist to do a bit of 'overtime' in a conveniently placed laboratory, I fail to see, without going into realms of the fantastic, how occurred anything like it.

I agree, the whole point of 'soaking' is to disperse the blood. Soaking would leave any flakes.
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Offline Jane

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Re: The Soiled underwear belonging to Sheila - catalyst for foul play!
« Reply #136 on: August 04, 2019, 12:26:PM »
Menstrual blood is known to contain flakes of clotted blood among other bits that will form flakes once dry.

To say you need a scientist with a PHD is nonsense.

What do you believe to be the source of the blood?


Mmm. Blood of any description can't, because it's liquid, strictly be said to contain "flakes" which are, by definition, unless they're of the chocolate variety that melt in the mouth anyway, dry. Whilst it's true that the uterus will expel other materials, they are not necessarily clots. The inclusion of such -and the causation- is due to many variables. As we're not privy to Sheila's gyneacologic history, we can only hazard guesses. However, I can't recall reading that she had any problems. This belief is backed up by the fact of her being fitted with an IUD which wouldn't have occurred had she ever had menstrual problems. We are left with the certain knowledge that HAD clots been present, soaking in water alone would be enough to disperse them. Water to which detergent had been added would have broken them down ever further.

Whilst the need for a Phd is probably overstepping the mark, I stand by my claim that some scientific knowledge of 'how to......' would have been necessary, rather than a WI mentality and a large helping of wishful thinking which likened a blood droplet to "a blob of jam". I do not believe that rank amateurs, armed with a pipette and an eye-dropper, could have extricated anything like enough useful material from blood-stained water.

I imagine the actual source of blood is as open to speculation now as when it was last discussed here, but for me, the most obvious, although not necessarily correct, is that it would have come from drawback in a close contact shot.

Offline lookout

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Re: The Soiled underwear belonging to Sheila - catalyst for foul play!
« Reply #137 on: August 04, 2019, 12:30:PM »
The blood in DB/1 exhibit had been established years ago as not being that of Sheila's because a Buccal sample taken from Sheila's bio mother for DNA profiling which then proved that the blood in the silencer hadn't originated from Sheila unless Christine Jay hadn't been the natural mother.


This info was included in a letter from a forensic scientist to CCRC.


There was no certainty that the DNA profile found in the silencer originated from blood.

Offline lookout

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Re: The Soiled underwear belonging to Sheila - catalyst for foul play!
« Reply #138 on: August 04, 2019, 12:45:PM »
David, would you know if a silencer had 14 or 17 baffles without taking it apart ?

Offline David1819

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Re: The Soiled underwear belonging to Sheila - catalyst for foul play!
« Reply #139 on: August 04, 2019, 12:46:PM »

Mmm. Blood of any description can't, because it's liquid, (snip)


Sigh..... I didn't want to post this but here it is. What does the menstrual blood below resemble? Jam.

Can you see clotted bits of blood in it? Yes.



I dont think any women can honestly dispute this, unless they are infertile and never menstruated.





« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 12:47:PM by David1819 »

Offline David1819

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Re: The Soiled underwear belonging to Sheila - catalyst for foul play!
« Reply #140 on: August 04, 2019, 01:02:PM »
The blood in DB/1 exhibit had been established years ago as not being that of Sheila's because a Buccal sample taken from Sheila's bio mother for DNA profiling which then proved that the blood in the silencer hadn't originated from Sheila unless Christine Jay hadn't been the natural mother.


This info was included in a letter from a forensic scientist to CCRC.


There was no certainty that the DNA profile found in the silencer originated from blood.

The DNA tested in 2000 was not based on blood. All the visible blood had been removed in 1985/86.

They could not find any trace of blood in 2000.

June Bambers DNA was found on opposite end of the silencer and not where the blood was recovered. This shows it got there via contamination. Hence why the CCRC were critisised for reffering the case in the first place.



Offline Jane

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Re: The Soiled underwear belonging to Sheila - catalyst for foul play!
« Reply #141 on: August 04, 2019, 01:16:PM »

Sigh..... I didn't want to post this but here it is. What does the menstrual blood below resemble? Jam.

Can you see clotted bits of blood in it? Yes.



I dont think any women can honestly dispute this, unless they are infertile and never menstruated.



That is indeed, a fine specimen!!!!!, and although quite shocking to be faced with at lunch time, hardly common place, for most women. It could, in fact, be a ten week pregnancy. It may also be of interest that SO much material would have been weighty and gravity would have done it's bit. No sooner had it have left the body than it would have hit the floor if the female had been in a vertical position. Such a mass in a pail would most certainly have given rise to questions about a possible pregnancy having terminated. Expelling such would be painful. I think the fact must be accepted that whatever the size of any material which left Sheila's body, it would have been small enough to be held within the minimal confines of bikini pants. Also worth noting is that women with such 'extravagant' flows need far and away more protection than that afforded by tampons.

Your 'jammy' description can't be argued against. However, your 'specimen' hadn't, I assume, spent several hours soaking in water which may have had added detergent?

Offline Caroline

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Re: The Soiled underwear belonging to Sheila - catalyst for foul play!
« Reply #142 on: August 04, 2019, 01:24:PM »


That is indeed, a fine specimen!!!!!, and although quite shocking to be faced with at lunch time, hardly common place, for most women. It could, in fact, be a ten week pregnancy. It may also be of interest that SO much material would have been weighty and gravity would have done it's bit. No sooner had it have left the body than it would have hit the floor if the female had been in a vertical position. Such a mass in a pail would most certainly have given rise to questions about a possible pregnancy having terminated. Expelling such would be painful. I think the fact must be accepted that whatever the size of any material which left Sheila's body, it would have been small enough to be held within the minimal confines of bikini pants. Also worth noting is that women with such 'extravagant' flows need far and away more protection than that afforded by tampons.

Your 'jammy' description can't be argued against. However, your 'specimen' hadn't, I assume, spent several hours soaking in water which may have had added detergent?

How would a jammy consistency days later find it's way down into the silencer? it wouldn't get passed the first baffle. The underwear was soaked in water which would disperse and dilute the blood. The flake may have come from the nightdress oe any other blood soaked items but not the underwear.
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Offline lookout

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Re: The Soiled underwear belonging to Sheila - catalyst for foul play!
« Reply #143 on: August 04, 2019, 01:25:PM »
DNA is taken from the white cells, not red anyway and the illustration shows a " waste " product which contains tissue/endometrium/mucus/------contaminated products to which a result would be quite poor.

Offline David1819

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Re: The Soiled underwear belonging to Sheila - catalyst for foul play!
« Reply #144 on: August 04, 2019, 02:36:PM »
David, would you know if a silencer had 14 or 17 baffles without taking it apart ?

I wouldnt have thought so. Why do you ask?

Offline David1819

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Re: The Soiled underwear belonging to Sheila - catalyst for foul play!
« Reply #145 on: August 04, 2019, 02:39:PM »
DNA is taken from the white cells, not red anyway and the illustration shows a " waste " product which contains tissue/endometrium/mucus/------contaminated products to which a result would be quite poor.

DNA is in every cell in a person's body. The only exeption being hair sans the hair root.

Offline lookout

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Re: The Soiled underwear belonging to Sheila - catalyst for foul play!
« Reply #146 on: August 04, 2019, 03:11:PM »
I wouldnt have thought so. Why do you ask?




Well because 2 silencers were involved and there was any jiggery-pokery going on as to which one was allegedly used, be it an AP one or a Bamber one the thing to do would be to find out who owned which one before " smearing " it. The only way of knowing would be to take it to bits and count the baffles and whichever belonged to the Bamber's, smear it and use it as evidence. Otherwise why take it to pieces ?

We know Cook( the corrupt one ) took one apart---why ? Also one of the relatives did too----why ?   

Offline David1819

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Re: The Soiled underwear belonging to Sheila - catalyst for foul play!
« Reply #147 on: August 04, 2019, 03:33:PM »

Well because 2 silencers were involved and there was any jiggery-pokery going on as to which one was allegedly used, be it an AP one or a Bamber one the thing to do would be to find out who owned which one before " smearing " it. The only way of knowing would be to take it to bits and count the baffles and whichever belonged to the Bamber's, smear it and use it as evidence. Otherwise why take it to pieces ?

We know Cook( the corrupt one ) took one apart---why ? Also one of the relatives did too----why ?

The relatives only handed over one silencer. That is the silencer that went through the lab and became the part of the prosecution case. That is the silencer that matters.

As for APs silencer and rifle. If it was present in the house at the time of the shootings. They simply took it and denied it being there.

There is nothing to suggest Cook was corrupt. He took the silencer baffles out to take photos of them at the fingerprint lab. The blood was already confirmed by the lab prior to him taking it apart.

Offline Caroline

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Re: The Soiled underwear belonging to Sheila - catalyst for foul play!
« Reply #148 on: August 04, 2019, 04:41:PM »


That is indeed, a fine specimen!!!!!, and although quite shocking to be faced with at lunch time, hardly common place, for most women. It could, in fact, be a ten week pregnancy. It may also be of interest that SO much material would have been weighty and gravity would have done it's bit. No sooner had it have left the body than it would have hit the floor if the female had been in a vertical position. Such a mass in a pail would most certainly have given rise to questions about a possible pregnancy having terminated. Expelling such would be painful. I think the fact must be accepted that whatever the size of any material which left Sheila's body, it would have been small enough to be held within the minimal confines of bikini pants. Also worth noting is that women with such 'extravagant' flows need far and away more protection than that afforded by tampons.

Your 'jammy' description can't be argued against. However, your 'specimen' hadn't, I assume, spent several hours soaking in water which may have had added detergent?

You're right. it was taken from a web page specifically about blood clots not normal flow periods.
http://uniasartisuliopa.blogspot.com/2017/01/menstruation-period-blood-clots.html
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Offline Jane

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Re: The Soiled underwear belonging to Sheila - catalyst for foul play!
« Reply #149 on: August 04, 2019, 05:19:PM »
You're right. it was taken from a web page specifically about blood clots not normal flow periods.
http://uniasartisuliopa.blogspot.com/2017/01/menstruation-period-blood-clots.html


Ha! I should have known!! The collection and presentation of the obscure and extreme as commonplace and accepted facts being one of David's talents ;) ;) ;)