Author Topic: THE BIGGEST LIE OF ALL...  (Read 469 times)

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Offline mike tesko

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Re: THE BIGGEST LIE OF ALL...
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2018, 08:47:AM »
So you are now saying that the photograph shows a piece of a fragmented bullet?

I'm just asking because previously you have claimed that the photograph showed a whole bullet. yes, I was making the point that the ballistic expert, Malcolm Fletcher, was claiming that bullet PV/20 was a 'WHOLE BULLET', but that the one in the image couldn't possibly be regarded as a whole bullet because it was clearly damaged and weighed considerably less than a whole bullet weighing 38 grain, 40 grain or as the case may be, 42 grain...

Fletcher recorded the individual bullet weights in respect of all the 25 bullets that were recovered from victims or the scene, including exhibits PV 19 and PV 20, but he failed to give the exact weight of a whole bullet for comparison testing...

What we now know with certainty, is that the body's weight in the image does not correspond with the bullet weight recorded on the general examination record for bullet  PV/20 which Malcolm Fletcher completed at the time of his examination of that particular bullet..

Neither the bullet in the image of PV/20, northern bullet in the general examination record at the lab' (PV/20) could possibly be described as a whole bullet, by reference to the fact that in the X-ray taken with regard to Sheila Caffells neck, it can clearly be seen that upon entering the neck the bullet in question at fragmented into multiple pieces of the Bullett, and that the pathologist Peter Vanezis only recovered one badly damaged piece of that bullet...

multiple pieces of that same and bullet which was PV/20, remained in Sheila Caffells neck and were not recovered at all. In view of this evidence how could the prosecutions ballistic expert Malcolm Fletcherclean that the bullet that he examined was a whole bullet, when clearly he could not possibly have been a whole bullet..

So we end up by the time the ballistics expert Malcolm Fletcher gets around to examining the bullet that the bullet that he's examining is a horrible it not a badly fragmented one or a distorted one! So it begs the question, what happened to the bullet in the image bearing the exhibit reference PV/20, and the other bullet which was weighed in relation to the general examination record by a Fletcher himself?



"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Hartley.

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Re: THE BIGGEST LIE OF ALL...
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2018, 08:58:AM »


So they didn't substitute the original bullet for a whole bullet, they just picked one piece of a bullet which you claim split in to three?

Offline Hartley.

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Re: THE BIGGEST LIE OF ALL...
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2018, 09:20:AM »
You mentioned that the pathologist documented that the bullet was badly fragmented, I can only see that he described it as extensively damaged? The lighter parts on the x-ray are likely to be bone shards I think.


Offline Hartley.

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Re: THE BIGGEST LIE OF ALL...
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2018, 09:26:AM »
You mentioned that the pathologist documented that the bullet was badly fragmented, I can only see that he described it as extensively damaged? The lighter parts on the x-ray are likely to be bone shards I think.



It's worth noting that the above record also mentions that 'lands & grooves' visible. How many is some visible lands and grooves? There should have been 8 lands and 8 grooves, so if there were only 2, 3, or 4 of one or other, or none in some instances, how does that make it certain that the bullet in question was definitely fired via the anshuzt rifle? In any event it could have been test fired in the rifle post the shooting tragedy as touched upon by me previously!

These are the markings which would allow somebody to link a bullet to a particular weapon. Yes, but which cannot confirm at what stage such a bullet had actually been fired via the anshuzt rifle!
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 04:10:PM by mike tesko »

Offline mike tesko

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Re: THE BIGGEST LIE OF ALL...
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2018, 09:35:AM »
So they didn't substitute the original bullet for a whole bullet, they just picked one piece of a bullet which you claim split in to three?

No,  the pathologist only recovered a small piece of a fragmented bullet during autopsy - all the other pieces were left in situ inside Sheila’s neck. The image of the bullet represents the small piece of the badly fragmented bullet which the pathologist recovered from Sheila’s neck weighing  26.46grains. There is no way that that badly distorted bullet in that image could be described as a whole bullet, and besides Eley manufactured 38 grain, 40 grain and 42 grain .22 ammunition, so you could hardly claim that the image of the badly distorted PV/20 bullet could be mistaken for a whole bullet..

Then you have a bullet weight recorded on the general examination record for PV/20 which is totally different - 23.8475234 grains, weighing less than the other PV/20 bullet in the image. It is impossible for these two bullets to be the same bullet that Fletcher claimed to be a whole bullet in his reports and witness statements. There were therefore three separate .22 bullets, or parts of bullets, which at one time or another had the PV/20 exhibit reference..

(1) - the actual piece of a badly fragmented bullet weighing 26.46 grains

(2) - the bullet mentioned in the general examination record weighing 23.8745234 grains, test fired in anshulzt rifle with silencer attached, post date the shooting tragedy

(3) - a test fired whole bullet test fired in anshult rifle minus a silencer, post date the shooting tragedy
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Hartley.

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Re: THE BIGGEST LIE OF ALL...
« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2018, 09:49:AM »
No,  the pathologist only recovered a small piece of a fragmented bullet during autopsy - all the other pieces were left in situ inside Sheila’s neck. The image of the bullet represents the small piece of the badly fragmented bullet which the pathologist recovered from Sheila’s neck weighing  26.46grains. There is no way that that badly distorted bullet in that image could be described as a whole bullet, and besides Eley manufactured 38 grain, 40 grain and 42 grain .22 ammunition, so you could hardly claim that the image of the badly distorted PV/20 bullet could be mistaken for a whole bullet..

Then you have a bullet weight recorded on the general examination record for PV/20 which is totally different - 23.8475234 grains, weighing less than the other PV/20 bullet in the image. It is impossible for these two bullets to be the same bullet that Fletcher claimed to be a whole bullet in his reports and witness statements. There were therefore three separate .22 bullets, or parts of bullets, which at one time or another had the PV/20 exhibit reference..

(1) - the actual piece of a badly fragmented bullet weighing 26.46 grains

(2) - the bullet mentioned in the general examination record weighing 23.8745234 grains, test fired in anshulzt rifle with silencer attached, post date the shooting tragedy

(3) - a test fired whole bullet test fired in anshult rifle minus a silencer, post date the shooting tragedy

The bullet is extensively damaged, but it does 'appear' whole, obviously the weight shows that it's not quite whole.

So it really depends of Fletcher's definition of 'whole', I don't think it is a precise indication. The description and weight of other bullets also suggests this to be the case.
So the description of 'whole' doesn't really concern me.

We're then left with two different weights, one given in grams and the other given in grains.
If our maths and conversion rate is correct, then there appears to be a small discrepancy of just 0.2 grams.

It would be worth comparing the weights of other bullets listed by Vanezis with those given by Fletcher so see if similar apparent discrepancies occur.

Offline Hartley.

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Re: THE BIGGEST LIE OF ALL...
« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2018, 10:20:AM »
That record is actually from Fletcher, so even on 29th September, he gives the same bullet weight as Vanezis.

The only discrepancy is the red felt tip writing on the photograph of the bullet. A discrepancy of 0.2grams. If authentic it appears simply to be an error.

The swapping bullets theory seems to be a bit of a stretch and doesn't really make any sense.

« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 10:21:AM by Hartley. »

Offline mike tesko

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Re: THE BIGGEST LIE OF ALL...
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2018, 10:21:AM »
No,  the pathologist only recovered a small piece of a fragmented bullet during autopsy - all the other pieces were left in situ inside Sheila’s neck. The image of the bullet represents the small piece of the badly fragmented bullet which the pathologist recovered from Sheila’s neck weighing  26.46grains. There is no way that that badly distorted bullet in that image could be described as a whole bullet, and besides Eley manufactured 38 grain, 40 grain and 42 grain .22 ammunition, so you could hardly claim that the image of the badly distorted PV/20 bullet could be mistaken for a whole bullet..

Then you have a bullet weight recorded on the general examination record for PV/20 which is totally different - 23.8475234 grains, weighing less than the other PV/20 bullet in the image. It is impossible for these two bullets to be the same bullet that Fletcher claimed to be a whole bullet in his reports and witness statements. There were therefore three separate .22 bullets, or parts of bullets, which at one time or another had the PV/20 exhibit reference..

(1) - the actual piece of a badly fragmented bullet weighing 26.46 grains

(2) - the bullet mentioned in the general examination record weighing 23.8745234 grains, test fired in anshulzt rifle with silencer attached, post date the shooting tragedy

(3) - a test fired whole bullet test fired in anshult rifle minus a silencer, post date the shooting tragedy

Linked to this, is the fact that two of the 29 control bullets (DRH/22) found on the kitchen worktop remain unaccounted for - Lab' records only show that 27 of the 29 control rounds were officially test fired in the anshuzt rifle post date the shooting tragedy! Fletcher simply told COLP that these two missing rounds had probably got lost along the way. But this cannot possibly be true because the 27 control rounds were all test fired on the 20th September, 25th September, 1st October, and 2nd October 1985!

Unfortunately for Fletcher and the cops, Fletcher himself used control rounds fired via the anshuzt rifle, both with and without a silencer fitted to the end of its barrel, to make comparison tests against batches of crime scene ammunition on the following dates, 12th, 13th, 18th and 19th September 1985, and therefore he must have done an unofficial test fire using the two missing control rounds from DRH/22 either on, or before the 12th September 1985, one of the two missing rounds fired through the rifle with the silencer fitted, and the other through the rifle minus the silencer...

Both of the two missing control rounds are almost certainly two of the three bullets which have been presented as having the exhibit reference of PV/20, at one time or another, the third badly distorted piece of a bullet was the actual bullet recovered from Sheila Caffell's neck by the pathologist, Venezis (the one in the image) - this leaves two bullets, one which weighed 23.8475234 grains which I suspect was test fired via the rifle with a silencer fitted, and the other whole bullet which Fletcher claims he could positively link as having been fired via the anshuzt rifle, was indeed fired via that rifle minus the silencer, hence why it remained whole!

Cops and Fletcher corresponded with one another regarding the fact that when control bullets were being fired via the silencer and rifle, that the bullets were getting damaged and distorted - this fits in perfectly with what we know about one of the three bullets presented as exhibit PV/20, the other was whole (undamaged) because it was not distorted it didn't get fired through the silencer when Fletcher did the unofficial test firing of the missing two rounds of control ammunition from DRH/22..
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: THE BIGGEST LIE OF ALL...
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2018, 10:24:AM »
That record is actually from Fletcher, so even on 29th September, he gives the same bullet weight as Vanezis.

The only discrepancy is the red felt tip writing on the photograph of the bullet. A discrepancy of 0.2grams. If authentic it appears simply to be an error. it's not an error, one of the readings is in grams (1.5453 ), the other in the image is recorded in grains (26.46)..

The swapping bullets theory seems to be a bit of a stretch and doesn't really make any sense.cops swapped the bullets, no doubt about it...


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Hartley.

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Re: THE BIGGEST LIE OF ALL...
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2018, 10:37:AM »
Vanezis doesn't ever actually give a bullet weight does he?
Nor does he describe it as badly fragmented.

The grain value written on the photograph when converted to grams is 0.2 grams greater than that given by Fletcher.

Your suggestion that Fletcher swapped the bullet for a whole bullet doesn't make any sense.

Offline Hartley.

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Re: THE BIGGEST LIE OF ALL...
« Reply #40 on: October 29, 2018, 12:08:PM »


Vanezis doesn't describe the bullet, it appears just to be your own interpretation of the x-ray.

I'm not quite sure what your theory about swapping bullets now is. It used to be swapping a fragment for a whole bullet, but now appears to be something else, maybe swapping a damaged bullet for another weighing just 0.2g more?

Offline David1819

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Re: THE BIGGEST LIE OF ALL...
« Reply #41 on: October 29, 2018, 12:49:PM »
Vanezis doesn't describe the bullet, it appears just to be your own interpretation of the x-ray.

I'm not quite sure what your theory about swapping bullets now is. It used to be swapping a fragment for a whole bullet, but now appears to be something else, maybe swapping a damaged bullet for another weighing just 0.2g more?

Mikes theory is that the bullet they recovered from Sheila's neck wasnt fired from the anschutz .22 so they swaped it for one that was to make it look like she was shot with the Anschutz.

 ::)
"Truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is."

"The idea that he could invent a tale of a killing spree by a mentally disturbed woman to be lent credibility by further violent episodes over the following decades is hard to credit."

Offline Hartley.

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Re: THE BIGGEST LIE OF ALL...
« Reply #42 on: October 29, 2018, 01:18:PM »
Mikes theory is that the bullet they recovered from Sheila's neck wasnt fired from the anschutz .22 so they swaped it for one that was to make it look like she was shot with the Anschutz.

 ::)

Yes, but the reasons for his theory now appear to have shifted.

He'd always maintained that the photographed bullet was a whole bullet that somebody had swapped.
Now it seems that he is suggesting that the photographed bullet is just a fragment of the actual bullet removed from Sheila.

I can't fathom what he is saying has been swapped and with what?

The bullet listed as being 1.5g, with extensive damage is also listed as having identifiable lands and grooves making it strongly suggestive that it was fired with the Anshutz rifle.

I'm a bit confused as to what exactly his theory is.

Offline David1819

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Re: THE BIGGEST LIE OF ALL...
« Reply #43 on: October 29, 2018, 01:22:PM »
I'm a bit confused as to what exactly his theory is.

I think Mike is also.
"Truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is."

"The idea that he could invent a tale of a killing spree by a mentally disturbed woman to be lent credibility by further violent episodes over the following decades is hard to credit."

Offline Hartley.

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Re: THE BIGGEST LIE OF ALL...
« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2018, 02:38:PM »
I think Mike is also.

Maybe, but let's let him explain it if he wants to.