Author Topic: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally  (Read 12813 times)

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Offline IndigoJ

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Re: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally
« Reply #60 on: August 15, 2018, 07:00:PM »




It makes you wonder what we'd have done for her in this country.

well for a start off we wouldn't have enabled a doctor to hand her the poison!

Offline lookout

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Re: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally
« Reply #61 on: August 15, 2018, 07:03:PM »
well for a start off we wouldn't have enabled a doctor to hand her the poison!







That's exactly what I meant !

Offline Jane

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Re: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally
« Reply #62 on: August 15, 2018, 07:29:PM »
yes it would be wrong !! look at what Stephen Hawkins achieved in his life!

I believe Stephen Hawkins wanted to live. We're not discussing those who want to live.

Offline lookout

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Re: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally
« Reply #63 on: August 15, 2018, 08:32:PM »
The thing is, can those who have mental health issues really make such decisions ? Are they in the right frame of mind to do so ?

Offline Jane

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Re: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally
« Reply #64 on: August 15, 2018, 08:37:PM »
The thing is, can those who have mental health issues really make such decisions ? Are they in the right frame of mind to do so ?

Depends on where you put the boundaries. If one is ill enough to be under section, I suppose legally, one would be deemed not to be capable.

Offline maggie

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Re: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally
« Reply #65 on: August 15, 2018, 08:49:PM »
The thing is, can those who have mental health issues really make such decisions ? Are they in the right frame of mind to do so ?
That is a difficult question and would think it depends on the nature of the illness. On the other hand anyone totally debilitated with a wasting disease is bound to have mental health illness due to the stress of their disease.   Where is the line drawn?   If assisted suicide is legal and acceptable is there a difference?  I don't know the answer however if I found myself in such a situation and wanted it why should I deny it to others who are suffering at least as much and want it?  It's a massive  question. 
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 09:20:PM by maggie »

Offline maggie

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Re: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally
« Reply #66 on: August 15, 2018, 09:32:PM »
yes it would be wrong !! look at what Stephen Hawkins achieved in his life!
Stephen Hawking had a strain of motor neurone disease which was bery slow to develop.  He also was able to cope with his illness in a way that some cannot. He was particularly cerebral  which possibly helped him and was also privileged with work wide connections.  Others find being paralysed and trapped demoralising and humiliating ando unbearable
 with no dignity and nothing to live for. Maybe this young woman had similar tortures.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally
« Reply #67 on: August 15, 2018, 09:45:PM »
Stephen Hawking had a strain of motor neurone disease which was bery slow to develop.  He also was able to cope with his illness in a way that some cannot. He was particularly cerebral  which possibly helped him and was also privileged with work wide connections.  Others find being paralysed and trapped demoralising and humiliating ando unbearable
 with no dignity and nothing to live for. Maybe this young woman had similar tortures.
But motor neurone disease is a physical infirmity. There was nothing physically wrong with Aureilia Brouwers but she became enshrouded in a deep melancholy from which extrication proved beyond the mental health professionals. No love for another, no concern for fellow humankind, no wish to marry, have children, improve herself educationally, no favourite food or walk? Was the arson attack a cry for help, was she resolved to kill herself from aged twelve?

I can't believe it..

Offline IndigoJ

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Re: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally
« Reply #68 on: August 15, 2018, 10:06:PM »
this story really makes you think! death is so final , never forget that ....

https://uk.yahoo.com/style/woman-shot-herself-face-given-second-chance-face-044400450.html?guccounter=1

Offline lookout

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Re: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally
« Reply #69 on: August 15, 2018, 10:17:PM »
These victims are all beautiful girls ?

Offline maggie

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Re: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally
« Reply #70 on: August 15, 2018, 10:21:PM »
But motor neurone disease is a physical infirmity. There was nothing physically wrong with Aureilia Brouwers but she became enshrouded in a deep melancholy from which extrication proved beyond the mental health professionals. No love for another, no concern for fellow humankind, no wish to marry, have children, improve herself educationally, no favourite food or walk? Was the arson attack a cry for help, was she resolved to kill herself from aged twelve?

I can't believe it..
Highly debilitating physical disease can cause huge psychological stress. My aregiment is that incurable mental health can be as traumatic as similar physical affliction. Some do not agree with EVER allowing anyone to have an assisted death which is fine if that is their sincere belief. My thinking is that incurable severe mental illness can be at least as horrendous for the sufferer who deserves the same respect as anyone suffering a physicall disease therefore if assisted dying is legal and strictly controlled what is the difference?  I am not even sure if I believe in it but do believe severe mental illness can be as bad as the worst physical illness although it is often not accepted to be so which is why it's so often dismissed or misunderstood.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 10:28:PM by maggie »

Offline Jane

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Re: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally
« Reply #71 on: August 16, 2018, 08:50:AM »
But motor neurone disease is a physical infirmity. There was nothing physically wrong with Aureilia Brouwers but she became enshrouded in a deep melancholy from which extrication proved beyond the mental health professionals. No love for another, no concern for fellow humankind, no wish to marry, have children, improve herself educationally, no favourite food or walk? Was the arson attack a cry for help, was she resolved to kill herself from aged twelve?

I can't believe it..

Steve, perhaps if you'd experienced what she had, you might believe it. I can only hope you never get to know how she felt.

Offline IndigoJ

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Re: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally
« Reply #72 on: August 16, 2018, 08:58:AM »
Are mental illnesses incurable and lifelong?
No. When treated appropriately and early, many people recover fully and have no further episodes of illness.

For others, mental illness may recur throughout their lives and require ongoing treatment. This is the same as many physical illnesses, such as diabetes and heart disease. Like these other long-term health conditions, mental illness can be managed so that individuals live life to the fullest.

Although some people become disabled as a result of ongoing mental illness, many who experience even very major episodes of illness live full and productive lives.

http://www.health.gov.au/internet/publications/publishing.nsf/Content/mental-pubs-w-whatmen-toc~mental-pubs-w-whatmen-myth

you are talking like mental illness is incurable , it isn't.

Offline Jane

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Re: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally
« Reply #73 on: August 16, 2018, 09:25:AM »
Are mental illnesses incurable and lifelong?
No. When treated appropriately and early, many people recover fully and have no further episodes of illness.

For others, mental illness may recur throughout their lives and require ongoing treatment. This is the same as many physical illnesses, such as diabetes and heart disease. Like these other long-term health conditions, mental illness can be managed so that individuals live life to the fullest.

Although some people become disabled as a result of ongoing mental illness, many who experience even very major episodes of illness live full and productive lives.

http://www.health.gov.au/internet/publications/publishing.nsf/Content/mental-pubs-w-whatmen-toc~mental-pubs-w-whatmen-myth

you are talking like mental illness is incurable , it isn't.


But SOME don't. It's those for whom the possibility of assisted suicide MAY be the crutch that keeps them going.

I believe you've stated categorically that you don't hold with assisted suicide being allowed. I get that it's not something you'd want for yourself -although I WOULD ask if you've ever been in a place SO dark and for SO long that you may have wished for a way out- and even if it was legalized, it's not something which would be forced on you. WHY then, would you wish to force others to live, if, for them, living had become intolerable?

This isn't about "one size fits all". Each case is individual. It's not about "if I can put up with it why can't they". What it IS about is the need to walk a mile in someone else's shoes before we pontificate on how they should/shouldn't  -my two least favourite words-  live lives we have no understanding of.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally
« Reply #74 on: August 16, 2018, 09:38:AM »

But SOME don't. It's those for whom the possibility of assisted suicide MAY be the crutch that keeps them going.

I believe you've stated categorically that you don't hold with assisted suicide being allowed. I get that it's not something you'd want for yourself -although I WOULD ask if you've ever been in a place SO dark and for SO long that you may have wished for a way out- and even if it was legalized, it's not something which would be forced on you. WHY then, would you wish to force others to live, if, for them, living had become intolerable?

This isn't about "one size fits all". Each case is individual. It's not about "if I can put up with it why can't they". What it IS about is the need to walk a mile in someone else's shoes before we pontificate on how they should/shouldn't  -my two least favourite words-  live lives we have no understanding of.
Are you saying that Aurelia Brouwers had an illness which is yet to be diagnosed by the medical profession? Why was she allowed to vegetate for so long and why does an otherwise physically fit individual expect someone else to carry out her death wish for her?