Author Topic: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally  (Read 925 times)

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Offline maggie

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Re: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2018, 09:12:PM »
But aren't we all tarnished in some way by being complicit in this legalized killing? Why does the individual concerned wish for an audience or at least another medical professional to perform the procedure for them?
I don't know Steve. It is certainly tragic for all concerned. I certainly don't know enough about the case to have any right to comment. I used to be completely against assisted suicide however latterly my view has begun to change.   The idea of a 29 year old being assisted to die sounds abhorrent  to us but we are not in her or her family's shoes .  May she RIP.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 09:15:PM by maggie »

Offline maggie

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Re: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2018, 09:26:PM »
imo the person is ill and lacking in the necessary insight to make the decision.
The alternative would be that she found a way to kill herself,  she was obviously determined to do so.   I am not denying it brings up all kinds of emotions individually and collectively but that is about our perceptions not about her pesonal tragic illness and suffering.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2018, 09:30:PM »
You see once you accept the principle of legalized killing it's hardly a surprise that it opens the floodgates to all kinds of controversial cases: https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2017/01/doctor-reprimanded-for-overstepping-mark-during-euthanasia-on-dementia-patient/

Offline maggie

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Re: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2018, 10:10:PM »
You see once you accept the principle of legalized killing it's hardly a surprise that it opens the floodgates to all kinds of controversial cases: https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2017/01/doctor-reprimanded-for-overstepping-mark-during-euthanasia-on-dementia-patient/
It's true it does which is one reason why I  was against it. It's a very difficult question and there should be more safeguards and protection in place.    I have many reservations but at the same time if a person is suffering without hope and wishes to end their suffering  what right do I have to stop them?

Offline IndigoJ

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Re: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally
« Reply #34 on: August 13, 2018, 07:23:PM »
It's true it does which is one reason why I  was against it. It's a very difficult question and there should be more safeguards and protection in place.    I have many reservations but at the same time if a person is suffering without hope and wishes to end their suffering  what right do I have to stop them?

then that would be their choice , but enabling them to do it is something else entirely

Offline lookout

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Re: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally
« Reply #35 on: August 13, 2018, 07:31:PM »
I'd rather not think about it.

Offline maggie

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Re: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally
« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2018, 08:01:PM »
then that would be their choice , but enabling them to do it is something else entirely
I do accept your argent however I don't know the history or circumstances of the case so it's difficult to foem an opinion.  If assisted suicide is acceptable for physically debilitating terminal diseases should we not look at mental illness in the same way?
 I would guess her illness was untreatable and this young woman could not be helped.
I don't believe this was a sudden decision, why should she be abandoned and left to jump in front of a rain or die in any other lonely and dstressing way, surely beter to die surrounded by those who loved her unconditionally.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally
« Reply #37 on: August 13, 2018, 08:21:PM »
I do accept your argent however I don't know the history or circumstances of the case so it's difficult to foem an opinion.  If assisted suicide is acceptable for physically debilitating terminal diseases should we not look at mental illness in the same way?
 I would guess her illness was untreatable and this young woman could not be helped.
I don't believe this was a sudden decision, why should she be abandoned and left to jump in front of a rain or die in any other lonely and dstressing way, surely beter to die surrounded by those who loved her unconditionally.
..because you would never know with a mental illness whether the death wish was just a symptom, and any relative who cared would fight tooth and nail to keep the chance of rehabilitation alive.

Offline maggie

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Re: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally
« Reply #38 on: August 13, 2018, 11:02:PM »
..because you would never know with a mental illness whether the death wish was just a symptom, and any relative who cared would fight tooth and nail to keep the chance of rehabilitation alive.
I don't disagree with you however it is really nother about the relative it is about respecting the suffering of the young woman. It very much depends on the case history and prognosis.  I don't know how anyone can keep alive anyone who ants to die that much. It's a huge moral problem but the sufferer deserves respect.   D'you think she should be locked up as well to stop her achieving her death or would you rather she died aldistressed and alone I don't know the anwer but as I said the sufferer's rights should be respected.
 

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally
« Reply #39 on: August 13, 2018, 11:17:PM »
I don't disagree with you however it is really nother about the relative it is about respecting the suffering of the young woman. It very much depends on the case history and prognosis.  I don't know how anyone can keep alive anyone who ants to die that much. It's a huge moral problem but the sufferer deserves respect.   D'you think she should be locked up as well to stop her achieving her death or would you rather she died aldistressed and alone I don't know the anwer but as I said the sufferer's rights should be respected.
 

If she's hearing voices which tell her to kill herself and I were a relative then she should be locked up for her own good until she becomes stabilized. I don't know what percentage of individuals are like this but it seems an easy way out for the authorities to euthanize and I also suspect a public expenditure rather than a medical motive.

Offline maggie

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Re: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally
« Reply #40 on: August 14, 2018, 08:56:AM »
If she's hearing voices which tell her to kill herself and I were a relative then she should be locked up for her own good until she becomes stabilized. I don't know what percentage of individuals are like this but it seems an easy way out for the authorities to euthanize and I also suspect a public expenditure rather than a medical motive.
Do you know her history?   I don't and my opinion is from a neutral position. I am not advocating euthanasia for anyone simply trying  to look at the situation objectively.  I am not comfortable with assisted suicide but am aware if I was in certain situations I may change my mind therefore I do not have the right to criticise someone choosing it IF there is no other relief from their suffering.

Offline lookout

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Re: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally
« Reply #41 on: August 14, 2018, 09:18:AM »
If she's hearing voices which tell her to kill herself and I were a relative then she should be locked up for her own good until she becomes stabilized. I don't know what percentage of individuals are like this but it seems an easy way out for the authorities to euthanize and I also suspect a public expenditure rather than a medical motive.





Once upon a time the " padded cell " would have been used on those patients who not only harmed others but were used for their own safety from damaging themselves as most hear commanding voices in their heads. This practice was used during the time when staff were otherwise too busy to deal with a one-to-one situation. Even those with suicidal thoughts were put into these cells in order for staff to administer medication and generally monitor them.
  During psychotic attacks patients would bang their heads on the walls or throw themselves onto the floor so for their own safety in many ways patients were restrained in this way.
 Restraining is no longer used though more favourable than euthanasia.

Offline maggie

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Re: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally
« Reply #42 on: August 14, 2018, 10:35:AM »




Once upon a time the " padded cell " would have been used on those patients who not only harmed others but were used for their own safety from damaging themselves as most hear commanding voices in their heads. This practice was used during the time when staff were otherwise too busy to deal with a one-to-one situation. Even those with suicidal thoughts were put into these cells in order for staff to administer medication and generally monitor them.
  During psychotic attacks patients would bang their heads on the walls or throw themselves onto the floor so for their own safety in many ways patients were restrained in this way.
 Restraining is no longer used though more favourable than euthanasia.
I am not in any way supporting euthanasia and I know a doctor's role is to save life. There is better medication these days which for most would bring some quality of life, however for the few people who cannot find any relief and are capable of making their own choice there may be an argument to allow them to die with dignity. The alternative to force a person to a life of appalling suffering or a lonely and miserable death may make society feel vindicated but is not necessarily more humane. Imo.

Offline Jane

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Re: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally
« Reply #43 on: August 14, 2018, 03:17:PM »
Time was when doctors, as a matter of course, carried with them, on their rounds, a phial containing morphine. To the best of my knowledge, it wasn't used indiscriminately, but to give release to those whose lives had become little more than a miserable existence. I wonder how many of those who denigrate people being given the choice of euthanasia would insist on living if their lives had become intolerable. Perhaps if the happy, healthy, and hopeful -who make rules for others- could begin to understand what it feels like to be in constant, unrelieved pain and devoid of hope, they might view it more compassionately.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: 29-year-old Dutch woman ends her life legally
« Reply #44 on: August 14, 2018, 04:05:PM »
Time was when doctors, as a matter of course, carried with them, on their rounds, a phial containing morphine. To the best of my knowledge, it wasn't used indiscriminately, but to give release to those whose lives had become little more than a miserable existence. I wonder how many of those who denigrate people being given the choice of euthanasia would insist on living if their lives had become intolerable. Perhaps if the happy, healthy, and hopeful -who make rules for others- could begin to understand what it feels like to be in constant, unrelieved pain and devoid of hope, they might view it more compassionately.
But there was nothing physically wrong with her Jane, she lived in a highly-developed country with a welfare state yet purported to suffer agonies from the age of twelve. How about transporting her to Africa to assist the aid workers for a week or see how they manage in Haiti? Shock therapy I know but wouldn't she stop feeling sorry for herself and count her blessings and wonder how she could make a contribution to others instead of expecting others to enact the death decision she made unilaterally?
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 04:17:PM by Steve_uk »