Author Topic: Nevills burns revisited.  (Read 28604 times)

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Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Nevills burns revisited.
« Reply #270 on: July 14, 2018, 01:31:PM »
Then why were the all the other victims tested for life?


Killers with Schizophrenia are know to carry out "bizarre mutilation of the victim's body"

"Decapitation and Dismemberment of the Corpse: A Matricide Case' published in the Journal of Forensic Sciences. A 57-year-old woman was decapitated and her right arm and both hands were dismembered by her 33-year-old daughter, who had been receiving treatment for schizophrenia for 15 years."
I don't believe Sheila's illness was like that, and anyway statistically schizophrenics are far more of a danger to themselves than others. Most people agree how peaceful Sheila looked in death, and I would argue this was solely because she was led to her death a few yards only that morning with no other physical exertion activities having occurred.

Offline Jane

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Re: Nevills burns revisited.
« Reply #271 on: July 14, 2018, 01:33:PM »




On the contrary,it's yourself who's pushing towards his guilt with most of your ill-thought out posts-----so why do you bother ? At least I'm looking for alternatives to her supposed schizophrenia which according to some seemed to have manifested itself overnight.
It's your overall righteousness against all that JB has stated that goes against the grain which I find damaging especially when there are those who are far more knowledgeable working behind the scenes ?

On the contrary, Lookout. My own posts, unlike your own, aren't just irrational, hot air spouts. For the most part I've already thought through what the next logical step is going to be -and make no mistake, there HAS to be one. Once I cut out the sentiment and started to apply the logic it became clear. The only alternatives you offer are about loading Sheila with other problems. You haven't cottoned on to the fact that if one child in a family has been badly traumatized by their experiences, it's common sense to to accept that the other won't have walked away Scott-free, and if they appear not to have been, it could easily slot them onto the psychopathic spectrum. I don't know what path you're attempting to take us down by talking about "her supposed schizophrenia which according to some seemed to have manifested itself overnight". You don't make clear which particular night you're referring to. According to Dr Ferguson, she was diagnosed as being such in 1983.

 It's an amusing irony that you talk about MY "overall righteousness" regarding "those who are far more knowledgeable working behind the scenes" when you have yet to agree with ANY- in fact you've DISagreed with ALL- of the "far more knowledgeable" involved in the case. You'll only support those current until they do something YOUR superior knowledge is offended by.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Nevills burns revisited.
« Reply #272 on: July 14, 2018, 01:42:PM »
As do psychopaths
From Jeremy's point of view: he had been given away at birth, accustomed himself to absentee mother June and various caregivers, familiarized himself with Nevill's own ways, packed off to the alien environment of Gresham's for eight years, encountered his mother's breakdown, became estranged from Sheila as her conversation became all the more incomprehensible to him, witnessed her first hospitalization, perceived how the twins were treated at White House Farm and how he might be replaced in the pecking order, saw Sheila's second hospitalization, then Nevill's stress which forced him to relinquish his magistrate's job.

He planned the murders for several months, yet in the back of his mind he still perceives himself as a nonentity who can't possibly live up his parents' aspirations. The murders are accomplished without a hitch, almost too perfectly, yet as he exits the kitchen there's still Nevill's body perched on his favourite chair, and the temptation is to prod it one last time to check death as guarantee that Jeremy can henceforth lead the life he wishes.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 01:42:PM by Steve_uk »

Offline Jane

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Re: Nevills burns revisited.
« Reply #273 on: July 14, 2018, 01:59:PM »
From Jeremy's point of view: he had been given away at birth, accustomed himself to absentee mother June and various caregivers, familiarized himself with Nevill's own ways, packed off to the alien environment of Gresham's for eight years, encountered his mother's breakdown, became estranged from Sheila as her conversation became all the more incomprehensible to him, witnessed her first hospitalization, perceived how the twins were treated at White House Farm and how he might be replaced in the pecking order, saw Sheila's second hospitalization, then Nevill's stress which forced him to relinquish his magistrate's job.

He planned the murders for several months, yet in the back of his mind he still perceives himself as a nonentity who can't possibly live up his parents' aspirations. The murders are accomplished without a hitch, almost too perfectly, yet as he exits the kitchen there's still Nevill's body perched on his favourite chair, and the temptation is to prod it one last time to check death as guarantee that Jeremy can henceforth lead the life he wishes.


Steve, you outline, very succinctly, that Jeremy couldn't have escaped all that befell Sheila, albeit, he had a very different coping mechanism. You've said, on previous occasions, that you believe he saw himself as a "nonentity". That's very much at odds with someone of his arrogance, who believes they can commit the perfect crime, don't you think? I'm rather more inclined to think that he simply didn't want to live up to what where Nevill and June's aspirations for him. That it wasn't the lifestyle he wanted for himself. I feel that, had he truly felt he owed them some sort of debt of gratitude, he may have been prepared to do what they wanted.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Nevills burns revisited.
« Reply #274 on: July 14, 2018, 02:09:PM »

Steve, you outline, very succinctly, that Jeremy couldn't have escaped all that befell Sheila, albeit, he had a very different coping mechanism. You've said, on previous occasions, that you believe he saw himself as a "nonentity". That's very much at odds with someone of his arrogance, who believes they can commit the perfect crime, don't you think? I'm rather more inclined to think that he simply didn't want to live up to what where Nevill and June's aspirations for him. That it wasn't the lifestyle he wanted for himself. I feel that, had he truly felt he owed them some sort of debt of gratitude, he may have been prepared to do what they wanted.
Jane I think he could escape the nonentity tag for awhile at least through the shortcut of inheriting money and the status that brought. I think one's self-esteem or lack of it might be something that many people conceal in different situations throughout life, though if constantly reminded of it the pressure cooker can explode in a way we have seen all too frequently in murder cases of this kind.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Nevills burns revisited.
« Reply #275 on: July 14, 2018, 02:17:PM »
Don't forget June was secure in her roots, at least for a time before she became engulfed in a feeling of hopelessness, which Robert Boutflour blamed directly on the adoptions. Nevill fulfilled himself through his work, a concept which was alien to son Jeremy. Sheila and Jeremy felt no such emotional security as they bopped away at Stringfellows nightclub, able to postpone their demons for a time but never to eradicate.


They were probably not so different from many youths of that period, though both were at the extremes of the spectrum and after the emotionless cocoon from which they emerged were unable to forge independent lives for themselves, which lay at the root of the problem.

Offline Jane

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Re: Nevills burns revisited.
« Reply #276 on: July 14, 2018, 02:18:PM »
Jane I think he could escape the nonentity tag for awhile at least through the shortcut of inheriting money and the status that brought. I think one's self-esteem or lack of it might be something that many people conceal in different situations throughout life, though if constantly reminded of it the pressure cooker can explode in a way we have seen all too frequently in murder cases of this kind.

It's a concept I'm very familiar with, Steve. I entirely agree that lack of self esteem can be suppressed along with all other emotions. When the pressure cooker/bottle finally explodes, the results can be devastating.

Offline Jane

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Re: Nevills burns revisited.
« Reply #277 on: July 14, 2018, 02:21:PM »
Don't forget June was secure in her roots, at least for a time before she became engulfed in a feeling of hopelessness, which Robert Boutflour blamed directly on the adoptions. Nevill fulfilled himself through his work, a concept which was alien to son Jeremy. Sheila and Jeremy felt no such emotional security as they bopped away at Stringfellows nightclub, able to postpone their demons for a time but never to eradicate.


They were probably not so different from many youths of that period, though both were at the extremes of the spectrum and after the emotionless cocoon from which they emerged were unable to forge independent lives for themselves, which lay at the root of the problem.

That was certainly a time during which we were less encouraged to feel, than to mindlessly achieve.

Offline lookout

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Re: Nevills burns revisited.
« Reply #278 on: July 14, 2018, 03:04:PM »
On the contrary, Lookout. My own posts, unlike your own, aren't just irrational, hot air spouts. For the most part I've already thought through what the next logical step is going to be -and make no mistake, there HAS to be one. Once I cut out the sentiment and started to apply the logic it became clear. The only alternatives you offer are about loading Sheila with other problems. You haven't cottoned on to the fact that if one child in a family has been badly traumatized by their experiences, it's common sense to to accept that the other won't have walked away Scott-free, and if they appear not to have been, it could easily slot them onto the psychopathic spectrum. I don't know what path you're attempting to take us down by talking about "her supposed schizophrenia which according to some seemed to have manifested itself overnight". You don't make clear which particular night you're referring to. According to Dr Ferguson, she was diagnosed as being such in 1983.

 It's an amusing irony that you talk about MY "overall righteousness" regarding "those who are far more knowledgeable working behind the scenes" when you have yet to agree with ANY- in fact you've DISagreed with ALL- of the "far more knowledgeable" involved in the case. You'll only support those current until they do something YOUR superior knowledge is offended by.






Obviously my main focus has been and will be on Sheila after considering all other options. After studying her life over the short period of years that she'd been alive she'd lived those years in the shadow of her mother and from day one it wasn't the ideal beginning. Life wasn't as kind to her as it should have been and the relationship with her mother had a direct affect as she emerged into adulthood.

JB obviously had the same background but was more resilient and had been able to shut off as some can though it seemed that he hadn't been subjected to the same religious content as Sheila had been therefore his mind hadn't been " fighting between good and evil or God and the Devil " like Sheila's had been. It also appeared to me that JB had been favoured more than Sheila in June's eyes a reason perhaps why Sheila leaned towards her father. Nothing unusual in this as it goes on in lots of families but it's so sad that Sheila couldn't share her problems with her mother in a mother/daughter relationship. Instead we see JB helping his mother bake cakes----no sign of Sheila ?


The trauma of abortion/miscarriages and live births without follow-up counselling for any would also have had lasting damage on Sheila's mental health along with a lack of support. It's too much to have expected that Sheila would have " got over " these things because she wouldn't have done and being predisposed to mental illness because of her beginning in life it became obvious that something was radically wrong.

As far as supporting the current team of course I do and I will knowing that they know far more about this case as time goes on and with the extra information they've been afforded, though not all of it as yet.


JB had a relatively easy life compared to Sheila which would have made a vast difference to how he felt against how Sheila was feeling at that time.

Offline lookout

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Re: Nevills burns revisited.
« Reply #279 on: July 14, 2018, 03:13:PM »
Mothers tend to be more lenient towards their sons rather than the daughters. Obviously an age-old thing, which as children you don't understand until later when boys/men would have been the breadwinners and the girls/women just had to tow the line in the home. We weren't as important !

Offline Jane

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Re: Nevills burns revisited.
« Reply #280 on: July 14, 2018, 03:49:PM »





Obviously my main focus has been and will be on Sheila after considering all other options. After studying her life over the short period of years that she'd been alive she'd lived those years in the shadow of her mother and from day one it wasn't the ideal beginning. Life wasn't as kind to her as it should have been and the relationship with her mother had a direct affect as she emerged into adulthood.

JB obviously had the same background but was more resilient and had been able to shut off as some can though it seemed that he hadn't been subjected to the same religious content as Sheila had been therefore his mind hadn't been " fighting between good and evil or God and the Devil " like Sheila's had been. It also appeared to me that JB had been favoured more than Sheila in June's eyes a reason perhaps why Sheila leaned towards her father. Nothing unusual in this as it goes on in lots of families but it's so sad that Sheila couldn't share her problems with her mother in a mother/daughter relationship. Instead we see JB helping his mother bake cakes----no sign of Sheila ?


The trauma of abortion/miscarriages and live births without follow-up counselling for any would also have had lasting damage on Sheila's mental health along with a lack of support. It's too much to have expected that Sheila would have " got over " these things because she wouldn't have done and being predisposed to mental illness because of her beginning in life it became obvious that something was radically wrong.

As far as supporting the current team of course I do and I will knowing that they know far more about this case as time goes on and with the extra information they've been afforded, though not all of it as yet.


JB had a relatively easy life compared to Sheila which would have made a vast difference to how he felt against how Sheila was feeling at that time.

Now that's a reasoned post, much of which I concur with. I don't agree with all of it but I get what you're saying.

We can only study what we know of Sheila's life. I suspect that's very little as chunks are missing, but I think there's enough for us to know that it wasn't a very happy life. I think it's FAR too sweeping a statement to claim that "Jeremy was more resilient". His emotions had to go somewhere. It would have been too personal, and he'd have been too young to have BEEN indifferent even if he'd feigned it. I think it was entirely possible that June favoured Jeremy over Sheila -it's also possible, that despite this, it was Nevill's approval that he craved- but I pay little heed to Jeremy's baking stories ONLY being about him and June together. It MAY have been that he watched Sheila and June baking and wished it he and June. It MAY have been, because there was a 3 year gap, that Sheila had baked with June previously, or even at such times when Jeremy wasn't there. These things simply are never set in stone. It depends on the view point/memory/agenda of the story teller.

I feel perfectly certain that all women who undergo abortion, natural or induced, and birth trauma, don't require counselling per se, but in Sheila's case, the odds,with all else she'd gone through, were very much stacked against her and I feel she'd have benefited enormously from having a safe space where she could have expressed herself fully. We can't say, categorically, because we don't know her genetic history, that she was predisposed to mental illness. What we CAN say, is that she'd been predisposed to too much emotional and psychological turmoil to "get over it" without intervention. Many years ago, such things were given the blanket term of "nervous breakdown" of which paranoia seemed to be a regular symptom. We can't actually say that Jeremy, other than superficially, had a "relatively easy life compared to Sheila". Sheila, it seemed, knew how to get her needs met. This possibly forced Jeremy into a place where his own needs were subjugated to hers and he was powerless to do anything about it.

Offline Jane

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Re: Nevills burns revisited.
« Reply #281 on: July 14, 2018, 03:50:PM »
Mothers tend to be more lenient towards their sons rather than the daughters. Obviously an age-old thing, which as children you don't understand until later when boys/men would have been the breadwinners and the girls/women just had to tow the line in the home. We weren't as important !

Might that have been your own experience, Lookout?

Offline lookout

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Re: Nevills burns revisited.
« Reply #282 on: July 14, 2018, 04:05:PM »
Might that have been your own experience, Lookout?






More or less but it seemed to have been the done thing during the 50's as I recall----not only in our family.

Offline Jane

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Re: Nevills burns revisited.
« Reply #283 on: July 14, 2018, 04:08:PM »





More or less but it seemed to have been the done thing during the 50's as I recall----not only in our family.

It doesn't matter that it was the "done thing". What matters is that those who were subjected to it felt ignored, overlooked, unimportant, invisible.

Offline lookout

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Re: Nevills burns revisited.
« Reply #284 on: July 14, 2018, 04:27:PM »
It doesn't matter that it was the "done thing". What matters is that those who were subjected to it felt ignored, overlooked, unimportant, invisible.





I'd made sure I was none of those by standing up for myself and risking mother's wrath. It was brother who took no chances ( coward ) Nobody was going to break my spirit.