Author Topic: Sheila and one other were responsible......  (Read 20639 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline lookout

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 48611
Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
« Reply #255 on: June 06, 2018, 09:44:PM »
No of course it doesn't make him a murderer, that wasn't the point I was making. Lookout's claim that he was worried about betraying trusts is clearly incorrect given that he offered up a ready diagnosis of her being a nutter and a psychopath. Trusts wasn't the first thing on his mind, regardless of whether he was talking 'their language' or using his own.






He was 24 and a " playboy " not someone trained in science of the brain so his diagnosis was bound to be hit and miss. No doubt he was trying to be as helpful as he could in his own language but only when he was in prison was he able to thoroughly read up about mental illnesses so that he could then understand what Sheila was going through.

How many times have we read about him saying that he'd wished he'd known how ill Sheila had been ?

Offline maggie

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13651
Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
« Reply #256 on: June 06, 2018, 09:54:PM »
Well, if all -or any- of what you say is true, Maggie, we CANNOT, in all justification, apply it ONLY to this case. We MUST apply it elsewhere. Our prisons are likely to be much less full if we're generous with benefit of doubt, but I'll guarantee many more guilty people will be free to commit more crimes. It's probably the sort of stance defense lawyers take but all it does is cast doubt. It doesn't make the guilty innocent.
I was just addressing your particular post Jane. I have said many times I do not know if he is innocent or guilty but I do believe second hand talk written as statemends hours after the event by people who had been up all night is hardly water tight evidence.
The state of our prisons is a different argument.  Many prison inmates have mental health illness, many were abused as children,  they are full to the brim and it's  a failure of our society. Prisons in Scandinavia are half empty and the citizens seem to live a happy life but that's another story.

Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 32561
Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
« Reply #257 on: June 06, 2018, 10:09:PM »
I was just addressing your particular post Jane. I have said many times I do not know if he is innocent or guilty but I do believe second hand talk written as statemends hours after the event by people who had been up all night is hardly water tight evidence.
The state of our prisons is a different argument.  Many prison inmates have mental health illness, many were abused as children,  they are full to the brim and it's  a failure of our society. Prisons in Scandinavia are half empty and the citizens seem to live a happy life but that's another story.

Maggie, from how you write, i feel you're much closer to innocent than guilty. I doubt that any suspect has much more than "second hand talk written as statements..................." As for police having been up all night, those police of my knowledge did three 8 hour shifts, so there'd have been a mix there of those on 10 til 6 overlapping with those on 6 til 2.

The state of out prisons is perhaps a reflection of the state of our society and that's a whole other story.

Offline lookout

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 48611
Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
« Reply #258 on: June 06, 2018, 10:16:PM »
As for convictions,for the first time the CPS have had to apologise due to the failures of the police and prosecutors to hand over evidence that could have proved a defendant's innocence.

Granted this apology was for the 47 rape cases which had to be dropped since January this year but the none disclosure or late disclosure of vital evidence was at the root of the problem which it was also said is so widespread that it was inevitable that innocent people would have been wrongly convicted of extremely serious offences.

Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 32561
Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
« Reply #259 on: June 06, 2018, 10:18:PM »
As for convictions,for the first time the CPS have had to apologise due to the failures of the police and prosecutors to hand over evidence that could have proved a defendant's innocence.

Granted this apology was for the 47 rape cases which had to be dropped since January this year but the none disclosure or late disclosure of vital evidence was at the root of the problem which it was also said is so widespread that it was inevitable that innocent people would have been wrongly convicted of extremely serious offences.

I agree entirely....................but it doesn't make ANY guilty person innocent.

Offline lookout

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 48611
Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
« Reply #260 on: June 06, 2018, 10:19:PM »
As if we didn't already know that failure to disclose evidence to the defense is what's keeping JB where he is. And still they won't cough up ! Maybe after Alison Saunders goes ?

Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 32561
Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
« Reply #261 on: June 06, 2018, 10:26:PM »
As if we didn't already know that failure to disclose evidence to the defense is what's keeping JB where he is. And still they won't cough up ! Maybe after Alison Saunders goes ?

You recite it like a mantra but you've got no idea what's in them -IF they exist- and IF they do and they're produced and they contain nothing of any consequence, we'll hear the same mantra repeated as a fall back.

Offline maggie

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13651
Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
« Reply #262 on: June 06, 2018, 10:40:PM »
Maggie, from how you write, i feel you're much closer to innocent than guilty. I doubt that any suspect has much more than "second hand talk written as statements..................." As for police having been up all night, those police of my knowledge did three 8 hour shifts, so there'd have been a mix there of those on 10 til 6 overlapping with those on 6 til 2.

The state of out prisons is perhaps a reflection of the state of our society and that's a whole other story.
I suspect he could be innocent yes, I certainly believe Sheila was involved but I'm well aware JB could be as well. I have always struggled with the idea of him climbing through the window in the dark after biking across dark fields,  banging the window shut etc. although it is a possibility which is one reason he was convicted. It seems this was thought up to solve the problem of how he eas able to enter the house with the door locked and bolted rather than any proof he did.  They didn't have to prove he did just that he could.  I know it's acceptable in law but not particularly convincing.    We know that in the past statements have been inaccurate or even rewritten to fit in with belief of guilt or innocence. Ito not a great way to convict someone and take their life away.  I assume you mean some police would have been on duty 6pm til 2 am then gone home and slept before they reported to work and recalled accurately what had been said many hours before or those who had been up all night possibly gone home and slept before they all met up to make their statements.  It's the same for any case not just for this one but it seems a pretty inadequate way to record information which is so important to the defendant whoever he/she is. 
I

Offline Caroline

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 27075
Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
« Reply #263 on: June 06, 2018, 11:38:PM »
I suspect he could be innocent yes, I certainly believe Sheila was involved but I'm well aware JB could be as well. I have always struggled with the idea of him climbing through the window in the dark after biking across dark fields,  banging the window shut etc. although it is a possibility which is one reason he was convicted. It seems this was thought up to solve the problem of how he eas able to enter the house with the door locked and bolted rather than any proof he did.  They didn't have to prove he did just that he could.  I know it's acceptable in law but not particularly convincing.    We know that in the past statements have been inaccurate or even rewritten to fit in with belief of guilt or innocence. Ito not a great way to convict someone and take their life away.  I assume you mean some police would have been on duty 6pm til 2 am then gone home and slept before they reported to work and recalled accurately what had been said many hours before or those who had been up all night possibly gone home and slept before they all met up to make their statements.  It's the same for any case not just for this one but it seems a pretty inadequate way to record information which is so important to the defendant whoever he/she is. 
I

He didn't have to bike there or crawl through a window, that's simplu one scenario and it certainly isn't what I believe. We don't know the door was locked and bolted when he entered, just when he left. I also think he left by the bathroom window because all you need to close and lock that from the outside is a piece of string and we know he had used this window before.

The point about statements being rewritten has to be looked at with the question of 'why'? They had the case wrapped up and made themselves look foolish when they changed tack to Jeremy. They had no reason to frame an innocent man and if they were going to do that, then why didn't make sure the Dickinson Report pointed to murder suicide, after all, it was commissioned by the people thought to be responsible for the frame up?
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 32561
Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
« Reply #264 on: June 07, 2018, 07:29:AM »
I suspect he could be innocent yes, I certainly believe Sheila was involved but I'm well aware JB could be as well. I have always struggled with the idea of him climbing through the window in the dark after biking across dark fields,  banging the window shut etc. although it is a possibility which is one reason he was convicted. It seems this was thought up to solve the problem of how he eas able to enter the house with the door locked and bolted rather than any proof he did.  They didn't have to prove he did just that he could.  I know it's acceptable in law but not particularly convincing.    We know that in the past statements have been inaccurate or even rewritten to fit in with belief of guilt or innocence. Ito not a great way to convict someone and take their life away.  I assume you mean some police would have been on duty 6pm til 2 am then gone home and slept before they reported to work and recalled accurately what had been said many hours before or those who had been up all night possibly gone home and slept before they all met up to make their statements.  It's the same for any case not just for this one but it seems a pretty inadequate way to record information which is so important to the defendant whoever he/she is. 
I

Well, I wouldn't stir myself from my comfortable home at dead of night and do a bike ride across uneven tracks to crawl through someone else's window -my psychology isn't right. My greed isn't strong enough- but the lure of several millions pounds in today's money would, I suspect make such more attractive. It wasn't exactly unknown terrain for him so less difficult than you might imagine, perhaps. The door MAY not have been locked when he went in. It's not impossible that Nevill was till up and let him in. All that's required then, having locked the door from the inside, is for him to exit a window.

The shifts run 6am til 2pm, 2pm til 10pm, 10pm til 6am, so those involved would probably have been a mix/overlap of two shifts. The firearms team would all have been members of other units. I'm almost certain that personnel don't go home and sleep on it before writing reports!

The point you raise re statements and their accuracy, or lack of -in this case, there was little to report as nothing happened for several hours. They were just hanging around outside waiting for something to happen, nothing of which changed when Jeremy was eventually suspected. If we're to go down the 'not fit for purpose route' there wouldn't be any convictions. If we relied on the word of the convicted insisting the police had got it wrong and took their word for it our prisons would be relatively empty. Such MAY work in Sweden but I'd suggest that the Swedish mind set is very different from ours.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 07:37:AM by Jane J »

Offline maggie

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13651
Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
« Reply #265 on: June 07, 2018, 08:07:AM »
Well, I wouldn't stir myself from my comfortable home at dead of night and do a bike ride across uneven tracks to crawl through someone else's window -my psychology isn't right. My greed isn't strong enough- but the lure of several millions pounds in today's money would, I suspect make such more attractive. It wasn't exactly unknown terrain for him so less difficult than you might imagine, perhaps. The door MAY not have been locked when he went in. It's not impossible that Nevill was till up and let him in. All that's required then, having locked the door from the inside, is for him to exit a window.

The shifts run 6am til 2pm, 2pm til 10pm, 10pm til 6am, so those involved would probably have been a mix/overlap of two shifts. The firearms team would all have been members of other units. I'm almost certain that personnel don't go home and sleep on it before writing reports!

The point you raise re statements and their accuracy, or lack of -in this case, there was little to report as nothing happened for several hours. They were just hanging around outside waiting for something to happen, nothing of which changed when Jeremy was eventually suspected. If we're to go down the 'not fit for purpose route' there wouldn't be any convictions. If we relied on the word of the convicted insisting the police had got it wrong and took their word for it our prisons would be relatively empty. Such MAY work in Sweden but I'd suggest that the Swedish mind set is very different from ours.
My main point was that the statements made that night about what JB did or didn't say were written from memory of much earlier conversations . We all know what happens when people repeat earlier conversations, intentionally or not they can add their own interpretations, attitudes, misunderstandings and jargon so using such reported words is far from dependable to make a point, no matter who said it or repeated it.
As for crawling through windows etc.  it is true he COULD have and that stands in a court of law I know that but this is the problem  with circumstantial evidence it's flakey and can always be questioned.  There is so little factual evidence, Julie Mugford is questionable as is the silencer evidence. The main reason people are definite he's guilty range from 'he's a psychopath'..... is he? How do you know?  or 'he is greedy and arrogant' or they 'know' just as Lookout and others 'know' he's innocent. It leaves me after years on this forum not knowing.  :-\
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 08:11:AM by maggie »

Offline lookout

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 48611
Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
« Reply #266 on: June 07, 2018, 08:39:AM »
JB just isn't/wasn't the " type " to see or even be involved with the carnage that were the murders of WHF.
He didn't even relish the pheasant shoot and would have been totally useless during combat. Unlike his father.

 

Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 32561
Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
« Reply #267 on: June 07, 2018, 08:46:AM »
JB just isn't/wasn't the " type " to see or even be involved with the carnage that were the murders of WHF.
He didn't even relish the pheasant shoot and would have been totally useless during combat. Unlike his father.

 


And what, in your opinion, is the "type"?

Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 32561
Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
« Reply #268 on: June 07, 2018, 08:55:AM »
My main point was that the statements made that night about what JB did or didn't say were written from memory of much earlier conversations . We all know what happens when people repeat earlier conversations, intentionally or not they can add their own interpretations, attitudes, misunderstandings and jargon so using such reported words is far from dependable to make a point, no matter who said it or repeated it.
As for crawling through windows etc.  it is true he COULD have and that stands in a court of law I know that but this is the problem  with circumstantial evidence it's flakey and can always be questioned.  There is so little factual evidence, Julie Mugford is questionable as is the silencer evidence. The main reason people are definite he's guilty range from 'he's a psychopath'..... is he? How do you know?  or 'he is greedy and arrogant' or they 'know' just as Lookout and others 'know' he's innocent. It leaves me after years on this forum not knowing.  :-\

Maggie, I have no idea if your comment is "Jeremy" particular or those accused per se. If the latter is so, I guess you have a problem with all convictions, "How to you know?" can be applied everywhere.
As for statements being written later, other than teaching the police shorthand, I don't know what the answer is. I'm happy to admit that my belief in his innocence was entirely emotional. My change to his guilt was reasoned.

Offline lookout

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 48611
Re: Sheila and one other were responsible......
« Reply #269 on: June 07, 2018, 09:40:AM »

And what, in your opinion, is the "type"?






As we know ALL nursing staff,police and the fire service are faced with carnage of sorts throughout their careers and it takes a certain type of person to carry out such duties and to be able to deal with these horrors that life throws up otherwise the job isn't for you.
These people DO suffer after a trauma and although it eases with time it NEVER goes away as at certain times in their lives they experience flashbacks which in some cases affects them greatly.

Does this mean that the majority who deal/have dealt with such traumas are psychopaths in your world just because they can continue with their lives and jobs ?

If Jeremy had indeed murdered his family he WOULD have shown the marked effects his killings would have done.