Author Topic: Is the BBC totally compromised?  (Read 21725 times)

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Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Is the BBC totally compromised?
« Reply #60 on: April 27, 2018, 08:13:PM »
You have little knowledge of it either,your lengthy post being all supposition. I prefer to recall the case of Alexander Litvinenko, which makes me think that there are rogue elements in Russia with access to these substances wishing to curry favour with Putin and his quasi-one party state, sustained through the shocking murder of Boris Nemtsov and the disbarment of Alexei Navalny in the March election.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 08:28:PM by Steve_uk »

Offline lookout

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Re: Is the BBC totally compromised?
« Reply #61 on: April 27, 2018, 09:44:PM »
Not only Russia.

Offline gringo

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Re: Is the BBC totally compromised?
« Reply #62 on: April 28, 2018, 07:49:PM »
You have little knowledge of it either,your lengthy post being all supposition. I prefer to recall the case of Alexander Litvinenko, which makes me think that there are rogue elements in Russia with access to these substances wishing to curry favour with Putin and his quasi-one party state, sustained through the shocking murder of Boris Nemtsov and the disbarment of Alexei Navalny in the March election.
    Do you believe as you first stated that the nerve agent used was produced by the Russians?
     If you do believe this could you endow us with the evidence to back up this claim? It is a simple request. The OPCW, the Porton Down scientists and the UK government have been very careful to not make this claim. The UK government have only committed themselves to this carefully crafted statement which is designed to lead the gullible into inferring untruths which they themselves cannot explicitly utter. Here is the official UK government statement issued in the aftermath of the incident:

    "This use of a military grade nerve agent, of a type developed by Russia, constitutes the first offensive use of a nerve agent in Europe since the Second World War."

    Why, do you think, are the words, "of a type developed by Russia" used? Why does that statement not explicitly claim, as you do, that the Russians produced the nerve agent? Why is the word developed rather than produced used? What exactly does the otherwise superfluous "of a type" mean? Take the words "of a type" away from the statement and it still makes sense. However, without these words it would explicitly blame the Russians. Do you think that this is perhaps why they were inserted?
    Perhaps more importantly, why do you think that the statement falls short of claiming that the agent used was of a type "exclusively" developed by Russia. It obviously leaves the clear implication that other unnamed countries also developed "agents of this type" but , well they are not attempting to imply guilt on the other unnamed countries.
    If you do not know the answers to these questions, or were unaware that they even existed because you don't question enough, then I will spell it out for you.
    The statement to anyone who follows politics is meaningless twaddle, spin, a form of words "of a type developed by Whitehall" designed to distract and mislead.
    It is crafted in such a way as to avoid making accusations, ie. directly lying, which are unsupported by any evidence but is simultaneously misleading enough to encourage the unenlightened to infer that Russia is being named as responsible. You have fallen for it hook, line and sinker and are now making wild and unsupported allegations that the Russians "produced" the nerve agent used in Salisbury. You actually believe that this "fact" is somehow undisputed demonstrating your own "little knowledge" and then, without irony, accuse me of the same.
     You claim that my previous post displayed "little knowledge" and was "all supposition". Quite how you dismiss as "supposition" the letter from Salisbury Consultant Dr. Davies, the court papers not naming novichok, the dubious statements via the Met, the phone call from Yulia, the media blackout on all of these witnesses/victims, the OPCW involvement under strangely prohibitive terms dictated by the UK government and the rest of the uncontested statements and findings of scientists is something that only you can answer. I suspect that you didn't read it fully and have demonstrated that it is in fact,
     "easier to fool a person than convince them they have been fooled"
     As for having "little knowledge" your own "short posts" manage to pack more supposition into a single sentence than I could manage in a book displaying, for all to see, your ignorance.
     To dismiss the post as supposition and to "prefer to recall the case of Alexander Litvinenko...", is a pathetic attempt to divert, but only long enough to attempt to distract from the fact that you are unable to rebut anything in my post or offer any evidence to back up your own claims.
      I choose the words "but only long enough" carefully, because it is already apparent to me that your knowledge of the Litvinenko and Nemtsov murders, as well as the disbarment of Navalny is, to be generous, no worse than your "understanding" of the Salibury Affair and any discussion on those matters would rapidly demonstrate this.
      I am happy to discuss any and all of the above cases but I "would prefer" that you back up your claims regarding Salisbury first. Can you provide any evidence that the agent used in Salisbury was Russian manufactured and if so, then do. Can you also provide the evidence that in any way shows/proves Russian involvement?
     
       
     
   

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Is the BBC totally compromised?
« Reply #63 on: April 28, 2018, 11:16:PM »
    Do you believe as you first stated that the nerve agent used was produced by the Russians?
     If you do believe this could you endow us with the evidence to back up this claim? It is a simple request. The OPCW, the Porton Down scientists and the UK government have been very careful to not make this claim. The UK government have only committed themselves to this carefully crafted statement which is designed to lead the gullible into inferring untruths which they themselves cannot explicitly utter. Here is the official UK government statement issued in the aftermath of the incident:

    "This use of a military grade nerve agent, of a type developed by Russia, constitutes the first offensive use of a nerve agent in Europe since the Second World War."

    Why, do you think, are the words, "of a type developed by Russia" used? Why does that statement not explicitly claim, as you do, that the Russians produced the nerve agent? Why is the word developed rather than produced used? What exactly does the otherwise superfluous "of a type" mean? Take the words "of a type" away from the statement and it still makes sense. However, without these words it would explicitly blame the Russians. Do you think that this is perhaps why they were inserted?
    Perhaps more importantly, why do you think that the statement falls short of claiming that the agent used was of a type "exclusively" developed by Russia. It obviously leaves the clear implication that other unnamed countries also developed "agents of this type" but , well they are not attempting to imply guilt on the other unnamed countries.
    If you do not know the answers to these questions, or were unaware that they even existed because you don't question enough, then I will spell it out for you.
    The statement to anyone who follows politics is meaningless twaddle, spin, a form of words "of a type developed by Whitehall" designed to distract and mislead.
    It is crafted in such a way as to avoid making accusations, ie. directly lying, which are unsupported by any evidence but is simultaneously misleading enough to encourage the unenlightened to infer that Russia is being named as responsible. You have fallen for it hook, line and sinker and are now making wild and unsupported allegations that the Russians "produced" the nerve agent used in Salisbury. You actually believe that this "fact" is somehow undisputed demonstrating your own "little knowledge" and then, without irony, accuse me of the same.
     You claim that my previous post displayed "little knowledge" and was "all supposition". Quite how you dismiss as "supposition" the letter from Salisbury Consultant Dr. Davies, the court papers not naming novichok, the dubious statements via the Met, the phone call from Yulia, the media blackout on all of these witnesses/victims, the OPCW involvement under strangely prohibitive terms dictated by the UK government and the rest of the uncontested statements and findings of scientists is something that only you can answer. I suspect that you didn't read it fully and have demonstrated that it is in fact,
     "easier to fool a person than convince them they have been fooled"
     As for having "little knowledge" your own "short posts" manage to pack more supposition into a single sentence than I could manage in a book displaying, for all to see, your ignorance.
     To dismiss the post as supposition and to "prefer to recall the case of Alexander Litvinenko...", is a pathetic attempt to divert, but only long enough to attempt to distract from the fact that you are unable to rebut anything in my post or offer any evidence to back up your own claims.
      I choose the words "but only long enough" carefully, because it is already apparent to me that your knowledge of the Litvinenko and Nemtsov murders, as well as the disbarment of Navalny is, to be generous, no worse than your "understanding" of the Salibury Affair and any discussion on those matters would rapidly demonstrate this.
      I am happy to discuss any and all of the above cases but I "would prefer" that you back up your claims regarding Salisbury first. Can you provide any evidence that the agent used in Salisbury was Russian manufactured and if so, then do. Can you also provide the evidence that in any way shows/proves Russian involvement?
     
       
     
   
I know full well what I wrote in #53 and the post does not claim that there is 100% proof that the Novichok originated in Russia. However since you press me it is my opinion that it was, either in Shikhany or GOSNIIOKhT and that the state has lost control of some of the supplies it claimed it had destroyed under the OPCW agreement.

Offline gringo

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Re: Is the BBC totally compromised?
« Reply #64 on: April 29, 2018, 12:47:AM »
I know full well what I wrote in #53 and the post does not claim that there is 100% proof that the Novichok originated in Russia. However since you press me it is my opinion that it was, either in Shikhany or GOSNIIOKhT and that the state has lost control of some of the supplies it claimed it had destroyed under the OPCW agreement.
It's still no excuse if Russia has lost control of the nerve agents it produced in the first place.
   It seems pretty clear that you are claiming that Russia "lost control of nerve agents it produced". Nobody but you is claiming this. You should be more careful with the language you use and more discerning when you read official statements where every word is chosen carefully. Developed and produced are very different in meaning and one was chosen over the other for good reason. There is no evidence that Novichok was ever produced in Russia and every reason to believe that it never has been. The danger of you being aware of any of this uncontested evidence is however somewhere between slim and nil.
   What facts are your opinion based on? What evidence is your "belief" based on? There is literally zero evidence available to support this contention unless you are basing your belief of the incoherent and since retracted ramblings of Boris Johnson where he went slightly off script to a German TV interviewer.
   Do you have any credible sources to support your belief that Russia produced the agent at Shikhany?
Your contention that you believe that it is from stock that, "Russia claimed that it had destroyed under the OPCW agreement" is slightly disingenuous. The OPCW themselves confirmed the destruction of these stocks so not only Russia was "claiming" this. We have yet to see a source, or reference to anything supporting your belief. You are simply repeating the propaganda and misrepresentations that the likes of Boris Johnson and Hamish de Bretton Gordon spout as if it is actual analysis.
   Do you base all of your beliefs on the incoherent and inconsistent ramblings of government mouthpieces, trusting that they wouldn't lie to you? Do you trust Johnson and co. to do your thinking for you?
   

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Is the BBC totally compromised?
« Reply #65 on: April 29, 2018, 02:07:PM »
No I form my own opinions and whether they are held by another person or not I don't mind one way or the other. On Betnod I was accused by Winrew of being "the cut and paste guy" and here recently I was accused of plagiarism. I'm going to make another assumption here which may be totally wrong, namely that you're a young guy in your 20s who has no conception whatsoever of what a totalitarian regime or a quasi-democratic one can do to the individual.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/novichok-scientist-fears-life-russia-lab-nerve-agent-salisbury-attack-vladimir-uglev-a8326076.html
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 02:07:PM by Steve_uk »

Offline David1819

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Re: Is the BBC totally compromised?
« Reply #66 on: April 29, 2018, 03:38:PM »
   It seems pretty clear that you are claiming that Russia "lost control of nerve agents it produced". Nobody but you is claiming this. You should be more careful with the language you use and more discerning when you read official statements where every word is chosen carefully. Developed and produced are very different in meaning and one was chosen over the other for good reason. There is no evidence that Novichok was ever produced in Russia and every reason to believe that it never has been. The danger of you being aware of any of this uncontested evidence is however somewhere between slim and nil.
   What facts are your opinion based on? What evidence is your "belief" based on? There is literally zero evidence available to support this contention unless you are basing your belief of the incoherent and since retracted ramblings of Boris Johnson where he went slightly off script to a German TV interviewer.
   Do you have any credible sources to support your belief that Russia produced the agent at Shikhany?
Your contention that you believe that it is from stock that, "Russia claimed that it had destroyed under the OPCW agreement" is slightly disingenuous. The OPCW themselves confirmed the destruction of these stocks so not only Russia was "claiming" this. We have yet to see a source, or reference to anything supporting your belief. You are simply repeating the propaganda and misrepresentations that the likes of Boris Johnson and Hamish de Bretton Gordon spout as if it is actual analysis.
   Do you base all of your beliefs on the incoherent and inconsistent ramblings of government mouthpieces, trusting that they wouldn't lie to you? Do you trust Johnson and co. to do your thinking for you?
 

This was written in a 1995 report on situation with Russians stockpiles.

Offline gringo

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Re: Is the BBC totally compromised?
« Reply #67 on: April 29, 2018, 05:48:PM »
No I form my own opinions and whether they are held by another person or not I don't mind one way or the other. On Betnod I was accused by Winrew of being "the cut and paste guy" and here recently I was accused of plagiarism. I'm going to make another assumption here which may be totally wrong, namely that you're a young guy in your 20s who has no conception whatsoever of what a totalitarian regime or a quasi-democratic one can do to the individual.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/novichok-scientist-fears-life-russia-lab-nerve-agent-salisbury-attack-vladimir-uglev-a8326076.html
    How did you form this opinion? I have asked you to to provide the evidence/info upon which you form this opinion and you have thus far failed to do so. In the absence of any evidence supporting your belief we are left to ponder from whence it came. The only other source for this claim that I am aware of is Hamish de Bretton Gordon and it was mere speculation on his part. It is fair to say that he is hardly a disinterested observer. Quite simply, Steve, on what do you base your belief that the Russians lost control of a nerve agent, that they produced probably at Shikhany? On what you have offered so far I can only assume that you are parroting HdBG.
    Your other latest assumption demonstrates that you haven't lost your touch when it comes to being spectacularly poor at making assumptions.
    I am in my mid 50's married with four daughters, the eldest being 35 and the youngest 19, as well as 4 grandchildren aged between 2 and 14. I have been aware of and a keen follower of politics and the wider geopolitical situation for over 30 years.
    It is pretty clear from your contributions on this thread, limited as they are, that your reading is as "expansive" as your thinking and you are pretty poorly informed.
    That I have, "no conception whatsoever of what a totalitarian regime or a quasi democratic one can do to the individual" is one of your more laughable and pompous statements, containing within it the clear implication that you somehow understand these concepts. I would wager that I could fit your collected thoughts on this on the back of a postage stamp and still leave room for the Lord's Prayer.
    "Totalitarian regime and quasi democratic" are just words to you, Steve. Your understanding of world affairs is very shallow.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2018, 03:31:PM by gringo »

Offline gringo

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Re: Is the BBC totally compromised?
« Reply #68 on: April 29, 2018, 06:00:PM »
This was written in a 1995 report on situation with Russians stockpiles.
   And?
    What is your reason for posting an irrelevant section of a report from an unknown source that has nothing to do with the situation now. A 1995 report that has no relevance to 2018. Really what point are you even attempting to make?
    The Soviet Union collapsed over a quarter of a century ago. Any nerve agents from the early 1990's would have long since degraded, google it yourself it isn't contested, so what possible relevance does your contribution offer.

Offline gringo

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Re: Is the BBC totally compromised?
« Reply #69 on: April 29, 2018, 06:22:PM »
This was written in a 1995 report on situation with Russians stockpiles.
   Do you imagine that this report in some way supports the theory of Russian culpability for the Salisbury incident?
     

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Is the BBC totally compromised?
« Reply #70 on: April 29, 2018, 06:35:PM »
Well there's no documentary evidence linking Adolf Hitler to the Holocaust, but that just shows how a totalitarian regime works. The Skripal and Litvinenko poisonings were probably carried out by rogue elements with links to the FSB in an attempt to obtain brownie points with Putin, all people with more money than sense and endless time on their hands it seems.

Offline David1819

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Re: Is the BBC totally compromised?
« Reply #71 on: April 29, 2018, 06:49:PM »
   And?
    What is your reason for posting an irrelevant section of a report from an unknown source that has nothing to do with the situation now. A 1995 report that has no relevance to 2018. Really what point are you even attempting to make?
    The Soviet Union collapsed over a quarter of a century ago. Any nerve agents from the early 1990's would have long since degraded, google it yourself it isn't contested, so what possible relevance does your contribution offer.

There does not seem to be answer to what the shelf life of the agent is.

https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/89na53/what_is_the_approximate_shelflife_of_the_novichok/

The toxin is kept in the form of two chemical precursors, physically separated within the weapon. Only when these two are mixed is the Novichok agent created.

So what is the shelf life of the binary components?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 07:52:PM by David1819 »

Offline gringo

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Re: Is the BBC totally compromised?
« Reply #72 on: April 29, 2018, 07:38:PM »
Well there's no documentary evidence linking Adolf Hitler to the Holocaust, but that just shows how a totalitarian regime works. The Skripal and Litvinenko poisonings were probably carried out by rogue elements with links to the FSB in an attempt to obtain brownie points with Putin, all people with more money than sense and endless time on their hands it seems.
    That's a bit of a roundabout way of admitting that there is no evidence to support your contentions of Russian responsibility and it now seems reasonable to infer that my hunch was correct. Your theory is simply a regurgitation of de Bretton Gordon's own evidence free thoughts.
    Invoking Hitler and the Holocaust is frankly bizarre and the relevance is difficult to discern. Your thoughts on the Skripal and Litvinenko poisonings are exactly what you have been told to think but you believe you formed your views independently all by yourself. It is mere coincidence that they exactly mirror the official line. I would guess that the level of evidence required by you is the same standard applied to the Skripal affair.

    Steve's approach to forming an evidence based view:

    1)  Find out the official line mouthed by Establishment lackeys and aired by the BBC et al as a shortcut to applying critical thinking.
    2)  Repeat the official line and claim that you thought of it all by yourself.
    3)  If challenged to produce evidence simply say something about Hitler and the holocaust ( other diversions apropos of nothing can also be used eg. mention a historic incident unconnected with the issue being discussed)
    4) Back to 2
   

Offline David1819

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Re: Is the BBC totally compromised?
« Reply #73 on: April 29, 2018, 07:52:PM »
   Do you imagine that this report in some way supports the theory of Russian culpability for the Salisbury incident?
     

No. I was just curious about Steve's claim that Russia lost control of chemical weapons. Doing my own research now it seems plausible.

There have been attempts to sell Soviet submarines to the Colombian drug cartels.

As for the culpability for the Salisbury incident thats obvious. Just like with Alexander Litvinenko.

Both were involved in the Russian military intelligence and became double agents convicted/accused of high treason. It acts as a deterrent for other Russians in the military considering treason so. In Litvinenko's case specialy, what a terrible way to go.

The only alternative senario is that Skripal was actually a triple agent (A triple agent is an agent who has been turned into a double agent, who is then wittingly or unwittingly turned again against the rival organization or nation that initially turned them into a double agent.) The UK found this out and killed him using Russian MO in order to cast suspiction away from themselves.

Offline gringo

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Re: Is the BBC totally compromised?
« Reply #74 on: April 29, 2018, 08:43:PM »
No. I was just curious about Steve's claim that Russia lost control of chemical weapons. Doing my own research now it seems plausible.

There have been attempts to sell Soviet submarines to the Colombian drug cartels.

As for the culpability for the Salisbury incident thats obvious. Just like with Alexander Litvinenko.

Both were involved in the Russian military intelligence and became double agents convicted/accused of high treason. It acts as a deterrent for other Russians in the military considering treason so. In Litvinenko's case specialy, what a terrible way to go.

The only alternative senario is that Skripal was actually a triple agent (A triple agent is an agent who has been turned into a double agent, who is then wittingly or unwittingly turned again against the rival organization or nation that initially turned them into a double agent.) The UK found this out and killed him using Russian MO in order to cast suspiction away from themselves.
    Your findings from your own research offer a very simple choice of scenarios and this perhaps reflects the amount of time your "research" has taken.
    If you followed world events in real time through a number of lenses you would already have a coherent and more credibly backed view.
    If you believe it is obvious that Russia are responsible then you need to open your mind. International espionage is not an exclusively Russian enterprise. There are any number of intelligence agencies somewhat pissed off at Russia's resurgence in the global picture, especially their support of the Syrian government.
    The intelligence agencies of the UK, US, Saudi, Israel plus others have motives for discrediting Russia.
Syria with Russia's help have all but defeated the jihadist terrorists funded, armed and supported by the above in an attempt to overthrow Assad.
    Russia have no real credible motive for attempting to murder Skripal. He was released and pardoned by them years earlier and could have been sentenced to death for treason when convicted.
    If you want to do some research, David, may I suggest you look into Pablo Miller. He was/is Sergei Skripal's MI6 handler and currently works for Orbis, a shadowy intelligence company and most likely a MI6 front.
    Interestingly a "d notice" was issued by the government in the immediate aftermath of Salisbury censoring the media from identifying Pablo Miller. Christopher Steele of the "steele dossier" infamy is a founding director of Orbis.
    I do not claim to know who was responsible for Salisbury and there are any number of suspects in the frame but the Russians are nowhere on the list realistically.
   The Pablo Miller/ Christopher Steele connection is an interesting one especially when allied with the knowledge that this is the connection that the government have "d noticed".