Author Topic: Deconstructing The Conspiracy  (Read 3513 times)

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Luminous Wanderer

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Deconstructing The Conspiracy
« on: April 10, 2018, 09:55:AM »
Early in the year, Michael O'Brien, a campaigner for Jeremy Bamber and against miscarriages of justice in general, gave an interview to alternative radio presenter/interviewer, Richie Allen.

Richie Allen is a good interviewer, but for anybody with some knowledge of the case, the content of the interview is not very illuminating as O'Brien goes over the usual pro-Bamber 'talking points'; meanwhile, for the ordinary public, what O'Brien has to say is deeply misleading.  I won't go into the relevant points exhaustively, as it's not my intention to nitpick.  Instead, I'd like to focus on a fundamental issue raised in the interview, which is O'Brien's contention that the crux of the case is an alleged criminal conspiracy against Bamber involving the police and members of the extended family.

There is absolutely no evidence to support this beyond unsupported inferences drawn from certain facts.  It is true that Boutflour and Eaton had the means, motive and opportunity to manufacture the moderator evidence, but so what?  It does not follow from this that they did so.  Evidence is needed, and not only is that evidence lacking, but a jury at trial decided that the evidence incriminating Bamber was satisfactory and enough to convict him.  That is where we are. 

It may be true - and I for one suspect this is the case - that Boutflour and Eaton deliberately and intentionally set out to find evidence that would put Jeremy in the frame, but that in and of itself is not illegal or improper.  They thought Jeremy had done it and they were determined to find evidence to show he had done it.  They did this because they disliked Jeremy and they wanted to stop him inheriting the family's wealth and selling their land.  OK, so what?  There's nothing illegal in framing somebody if the evidence supports the framing. If the evidence says he did it, then that's what the evidence says.  The motives of the framers, even if selfish and unpleasant in their own right, are unimportant.

If the axiom of Bamber's case is going to be a conspiracy to fabricate evidence, then I believe his legal prospects are dead in the water.  It's too high a bar to jump, and in my opinion, it is not necessary to prove a conspiracy anyway.  The focus should be on what can be proved or demonstrated from the known facts and evidence. 

The central weakness in the Crown's case is the lack of forensic evidence directly connecting Bamber to the scene of the crime, and while that in itself is somewhat irrelevant and not a ground for appeal, it does represent an underlying structural and narrative weakness in the Crown's position and does mean that should just one pillar of the Crown's case fall, the whole case against Bamber collapses. 

Based on what I have read so far, I believe the line of attack should be on the following points:

(i). The forensic evidence found in the moderator is weak as it is, being inconclusive when considered in isolation.  It can be undermined further if it can be shown either that, there is a significant risk of contamination or inaccuracy in the results, or the conclusion derived from the results could be in error, or both.

(ii). The report from the ballistics expert is incomplete and unsatisfactory, and just might be the Achilles heel in the Crown's case.  The gunshot wounds and blood splatter patterns to Sheila suggest that she was not shot while standing up or with a moderated rifle.  If expert opinion can support this, then it would discredit Fletcher's report conclusively.

I may change my view on those points in the detail or generality, and new points may be added as I learn more, but what matters is the overall message conveyed in this post about focusing on what matters.  Either of (i) or (ii) would be enough to quash the conviction, and preferably both avenues should be pursued.  No conspiracy is needed.

Offline David1819

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Re: Deconstructing The Conspiracy
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2018, 10:18:AM »
This is part of a Letter from Jeremy to Mike. Written about 7 years ago.


« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 10:18:AM by David1819 »

Offline Roch

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Re: Deconstructing The Conspiracy
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2018, 10:22:AM »
It may be true - and I for one suspect this is the case - that Boutflour and Eaton deliberately and intentionally set out to find evidence that would put Jeremy in the frame, but that in and of itself is not illegal or improper.  They thought Jeremy had done it and they were determined to find evidence to show he had done it.  They did this because they disliked Jeremy and they wanted to stop him inheriting the family's wealth and selling their land.


Now you're starting to sound like one of us (i.e. mere dolts who take sides).

OK, so what?  There's nothing illegal in framing somebody if the evidence supports the framing. If the evidence says he did it, then that's what the evidence says.  The motives of the framers, even if selfish and unpleasant in their own right, are unimportant.

I don't quite get this part part

Surely if they were attempting to frame somebody, the very nature of their intent means that the evidence they provide must say 'he did it'.   Otherwise what would be the point in fabricating the evidence in the first instance?

Furthermore, how is it 'not illegal' to do this?

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Deconstructing The Conspiracy
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2018, 10:51:AM »
Early in the year, Michael O'Brien, a campaigner for Jeremy Bamber and against miscarriages of justice in general, gave an interview to alternative radio presenter/interviewer, Richie Allen.

Richie Allen is a good interviewer, but for anybody with some knowledge of the case, the content of the interview is not very illuminating as O'Brien goes over the usual pro-Bamber 'talking points'; meanwhile, for the ordinary public, what O'Brien has to say is deeply misleading.  I won't go into the relevant points exhaustively, as it's not my intention to nitpick.  Instead, I'd like to focus on a fundamental issue raised in the interview, which is O'Brien's contention that the crux of the case is an alleged criminal conspiracy against Bamber involving the police and members of the extended family.

There is absolutely no evidence to support this beyond unsupported inferences drawn from certain facts.  It is true that Boutflour and Eaton had the means, motive and opportunity to manufacture the moderator evidence, but so what?  It does not follow from this that they did so.  Evidence is needed, and not only is that evidence lacking, but a jury at trial decided that the evidence incriminating Bamber was satisfactory and enough to convict him.  That is where we are. 

It may be true - and I for one suspect this is the case - that Boutflour and Eaton deliberately and intentionally set out to find evidence that would put Jeremy in the frame, but that in and of itself is not illegal or improper.  They thought Jeremy had done it and they were determined to find evidence to show he had done it.  They did this because they disliked Jeremy and they wanted to stop him inheriting the family's wealth and selling their land.  OK, so what?  There's nothing illegal in framing somebody if the evidence supports the framing. If the evidence says he did it, then that's what the evidence says.  The motives of the framers, even if selfish and unpleasant in their own right, are unimportant.

If the axiom of Bamber's case is going to be a conspiracy to fabricate evidence, then I believe his legal prospects are dead in the water.  It's too high a bar to jump, and in my opinion, it is not necessary to prove a conspiracy anyway.  The focus should be on what can be proved or demonstrated from the known facts and evidence. 

The central weakness in the Crown's case is the lack of forensic evidence directly connecting Bamber to the scene of the crime, and while that in itself is somewhat irrelevant and not a ground for appeal, it does represent an underlying structural and narrative weakness in the Crown's position and does mean that should just one pillar of the Crown's case fall, the whole case against Bamber collapses. 

Based on what I have read so far, I believe the line of attack should be on the following points:

(i). The forensic evidence found in the moderator is weak as it is, being inconclusive when considered in isolation.  It can be undermined further if it can be shown either that, there is a significant risk of contamination or inaccuracy in the results, or the conclusion derived from the results could be in error, or both.

(ii). The report from the ballistics expert is incomplete and unsatisfactory, and just might be the Achilles heel in the Crown's case.  The gunshot wounds and blood splatter patterns to Sheila suggest that she was not shot while standing up or with a moderated rifle.  If expert opinion can support this, then it would discredit Fletcher's report conclusively.

I may change my view on those points in the detail or generality, and new points may be added as I learn more, but what matters is the overall message conveyed in this post about focusing on what matters.  Either of (i) or (ii) would be enough to quash the conviction, and preferably both avenues should be pursued.  No conspiracy is needed.
I'd like to listen if you've got the link? As far as the Eatons is concerned you're unlikely to get anywhere unless one of them confesses to malfeasance or the children overhear an incriminatory conversation as occurred in the Chris Huhne case.


Luminous Wanderer

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Re: Deconstructing The Conspiracy
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2018, 02:47:PM »
This is part of a Letter from Jeremy to Mike. Written about 7 years ago.

Thanks.  I will look at that and let you know if I change my mind.  It is difficult to read, so a transcript would help, if available.

Luminous Wanderer

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Re: Deconstructing The Conspiracy
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2018, 02:56:PM »


Now you're starting to sound like one of us (i.e. mere dolts who take sides).

No, I'm not.  I'm just looking at the situation objectively.

I don't quite get this part part

Surely if they were attempting to frame somebody, the very nature of their intent means that the evidence they provide must say 'he did it'.

Otherwise what would be the point in fabricating the evidence in the first instance?

You're assuming that they fabricated evidence.  They might have done.  It might be true.  But where's your evidence that they did?  Oh, that's right, you've got none.  Oh dear.  That means your theory is not an argument.  It stays a theory.  There's nothing to back it up.  Instead, we could equally say that the relatives disliked him, so they went looking for evidence to incriminate him, and they found it.  I call that 'framing' too, but it's not illegal. 

I call it 'framing' because I wish to convey an important nuance that I think most, if not all, pro-Bambers are ignoring. 

Furthermore, how is it 'not illegal' to do this?

A hypothetical: I might be absolutely convinced that you stole my lunch apple, and moreover, I may dislike you.  I therefore set about putting you in the frame for the misdemeanour by collecting evidence that incriminates you and you alone, ignoring any exculpatory indicators.  I then pass the evidence to the police, none of which has been fabricated, and you are summonsed and punished.  We may agree that what I have done is nasty, unfair and possibly risks an unsafe conviction: but what is illegal about it?
« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 03:03:PM by Luminous Wanderer »

Luminous Wanderer

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Re: Deconstructing The Conspiracy
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2018, 03:00:PM »
I'd like to listen if you've got the link? As far as the Eatons is concerned you're unlikely to get anywhere unless one of them confesses to malfeasance or the children overhear an incriminatory conversation as occurred in the Chris Huhne case.

Steve, here's the link.  Let me know what you think and if you agree with my view/impressions on it.

N.B.: The audio starts as soon as you open the window, just to warn you in case you are at work or somewhere public.

https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/richieallen/episodes/2018-02-13T13_09_38-08_00

There's a lot to dismantle in what O'Brien says and I was originally going to do a full critique, but on reflection decided there was little point.  The crux of it is: he is accusing the police and Boutflour/Eaton of a criminal conspiracy involving perjury and perverting the course of justice.

Offline lookout

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Re: Deconstructing The Conspiracy
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2018, 04:49:PM »
And to think that Colin Pitchfork,the first criminal in the world to have been convicted through his DNA and of course the horrendous double child killer and rapist,gets released next month after 30 years !! If ever someone should be kept behind bars it's him who has PROVED he's a danger.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Deconstructing The Conspiracy
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2018, 05:46:PM »
No, I'm not.  I'm just looking at the situation objectively.

You're assuming that they fabricated evidence.  They might have done.  It might be true.  But where's your evidence that they did?  Oh, that's right, you've got none.  Oh dear.  That means your theory is not an argument.  It stays a theory.  There's nothing to back it up.  Instead, we could equally say that the relatives disliked him, so they went looking for evidence to incriminate him, and they found it.  I call that 'framing' too, but it's not illegal. 

I call it 'framing' because I wish to convey an important nuance that I think most, if not all, pro-Bambers are ignoring. 

A hypothetical: I might be absolutely convinced that you stole my lunch apple, and moreover, I may dislike you.  I therefore set about putting you in the frame for the misdemeanour by collecting evidence that incriminates you and you alone, ignoring any exculpatory indicators. I then pass the evidence to the police, none of which has been fabricated, and you are summonsed and punished.  We may agree that what I have done is nasty, unfair and possibly risks an unsafe conviction: but what is illegal about it?
But the whole point about the difference between the two cases (if you're defending Jeremy) is that you didn't fabricate any evidence as regards your apple but the relatives manufactured the silencer evidence.

Luminous Wanderer

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Re: Deconstructing The Conspiracy
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2018, 05:49:PM »
But the whole point about the difference between the two cases (if you're defending Jeremy) is that you didn't fabricate any evidence as regards your apple but the relatives manufactured the silencer evidence.

I agree, but I think here is where you are missing the important nuance I am trying to convey about how 'frame-ups' occur in the real world.  That's possibly because you are a good and law-abiding man, which I am frankly not.  I have the relevant experience, having been a criminal.  A police frame-up does not require malice, a principle that can be easily transposed to the actions of Boutflour and Eaton.

Also - I am not defending Jeremy here, and I am not prosecuting him either.  I'm neutral.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 05:50:PM by Luminous Wanderer »

Offline lookout

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Re: Deconstructing The Conspiracy
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2018, 05:56:PM »
Having once committed a crime/s it doesn't exactly bode well with either a guilty or innocent take on the case I'd have thought ? Unless of course it happened to have been a genuine MOJ.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Deconstructing The Conspiracy
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2018, 05:59:PM »
I agree, but I think here is where you are missing the important nuance I am trying to convey about how 'frame-ups' occur in the real world.  That's possibly because you are a good and law-abiding man, which I am frankly not.  I have the relevant experience, having been a criminal.  A police frame-up does not require malice, a principle that can be easily transposed to the actions of Boutflour and Eaton.

Also - I am not defending Jeremy here, and I am not prosecuting him either.  I'm neutral.
Do you mean that they do it because they're ordered to by superiors or because they're holding out for the possibility of a promotion?

Luminous Wanderer

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Re: Deconstructing The Conspiracy
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2018, 06:09:PM »
Do you mean that they do it because they're ordered to by superiors or because they're holding out for the possibility of a promotion?

No, Steve.

They do it because they know the person is a criminal or think he is actually guilty of the specific offence, or both.  It doesn't have to involve fabricating anything and the officers don't need to be corrupt or dishonest.  Evidence can be fitted around a factual narrative.

Luminous Wanderer

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Re: Deconstructing The Conspiracy
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2018, 06:10:PM »
Having once committed a crime/s it doesn't exactly bode well with either a guilty or innocent take on the case I'd have thought ? Unless of course it happened to have been a genuine MOJ.

You've never committed a crime?

I have no interest in acting as judge and jury.  I can't in this case, due to its special features.  I keep repeating that over and over and over again, but you seem not to take it in.  I wonder why?
« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 06:10:PM by Luminous Wanderer »

Offline lookout

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Re: Deconstructing The Conspiracy
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2018, 06:18:PM »
You've never committed a crime?

I have no interest in acting as judge and jury.  I can't in this case, due to its special features.  I keep repeating that over and over and over again, but you seem not to take it in.  I wonder why?




NO. I've NEVER committed a crime.