Author Topic: Save me from blood-guiltiness, O God  (Read 2911 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Nigel

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1197
Re: Save me from blood-guiltiness, O God
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2018, 07:33:PM »
There is no spin. You're attributing four murders to a pitiful, ditzy young woman who couldn't hold down regular employment, couldn't form any meaningful relationship post-illness and whose deftness was severely impaired by the medication she was forced to consume. You sensationalize in the same way Jeremy Bamber has in the past from a prison cell by obfuscation with covert references to Rosemary's Baby and The Exorcist, and refuse to look at the bigger picture of who benefited from the demise of five individuals in one of the most heinous crimes of the late twentieth century.

What, not Julie Mugford and Jeremy's relatives?

You don't say.
I slow down for a speeding police car, don't you?

6.01pm on Friday 6th September 1985 'Part 2' of the case began.

Offline Steve_uk

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 17937
Re: Save me from blood-guiltiness, O God
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2018, 07:36:PM »
No offence Steve but you cannot possibly know what Sheila's behavior was in her last few weeks. Many people who are 'stabalised' on antipsychotic drugs are unpredictable and angry. I'm not saying Sheila was because I doubt anyone knows what her behavour was like. I am saying it is possible she was
All we know for certain is that June was perturbed by her behavour enough to want to discuss it with Pamela.
June didn't really have time for her daughter at the best of times, and therein lay the tragedy. There is no report of Sheila being unpredictable and angry at all that week, from the gas man to Michael Horsnell, Julia and Len Foakes or the Tiptree shopkeeper, who remembered her vacant stare and smudged lipstick, synonymous of her illness and her desire to keep up appearances at all costs, yet only Colin knew the true Sheila and how vulnerable deep down she really was.

Offline Nigel

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1197
Re: Save me from blood-guiltiness, O God
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2018, 07:40:PM »
June didn't really have time for her daughter at the best of times, and therein lay the tragedy. There is no report of Sheila being unpredictable and angry at all that week, from the gas man to Michael Horsnell, Julia and Len Foakes or the Tiptree shopkeeper, who remembered her vacant stare and smudged lipstick, synonymous of her illness and her desire to keep up appearances at all costs, yet only Colin knew the true Sheila and how vulnerable deep down she really was.

Good God, you harp on with your great knowledge of the case.

Yet all you have is 'the two M's' Mugford and Moderator, both of which we all know, where fabricated.

note to self
Don't slow down when a Police car passes, may get accused of murder.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 07:43:PM by Nigel »
I slow down for a speeding police car, don't you?

6.01pm on Friday 6th September 1985 'Part 2' of the case began.

Offline Steve_uk

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 17937
Re: Save me from blood-guiltiness, O God
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2018, 07:44:PM »
What, not Julie Mugford and Jeremy's relatives?

You don't say.
Julie could have kept her mouth shut and been gifted a wine bar in a fashionable area of London, but her conscience couldn't endure the wickedness in which she had in part acquiesced. There would have been a court case with or without Julie anyway.

You only have to read Bamber's initial letters to Colin from a prison cell to realize how his mind was working once he had been found out: vitriolic, materialistic, blaming everyone but himself for his plight with not one iota of a conscience for the death of his parents and two six-year-old boys.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 07:45:PM by Steve_uk »

Offline Nigel

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1197
Re: Save me from blood-guiltiness, O God
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2018, 07:53:PM »
Julie could have kept her mouth shut and been gifted a wine bar in a fashionable area of London, but her conscience couldn't endure the wickedness in which she had in part acquiesced. There would have been a court case with or without Julie anyway.

You only have to read Bamber's initial letters to Colin from a prison cell to realize how his mind was working once he had been found out: vitriolic, materialistic, blaming everyone but himself for his plight with not one iota of a conscience for the death of his parents and two six-year-old boys.

Julie is such a 'Pillar of Humanity'. She was able to see two 5 year olds dead in the morgue, and not go to the Police immediately......

....But, she was able to rush to London for the photo shoot for the News of the World, dressed like a prostitute, after the trial.
I slow down for a speeding police car, don't you?

6.01pm on Friday 6th September 1985 'Part 2' of the case began.

Offline Steve_uk

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 17937
Re: Save me from blood-guiltiness, O God
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2018, 08:05:PM »
Julie is such a 'Pillar of Humanity'. She was able to see two 5 year olds dead in the morgue, and not go to the Police immediately......

....But, she was able to rush to London for the photo shoot for the News of the World, dressed like a prostitute, after the trial.
It's a side issue really, although a thoroughly disagreeable one. Nobody knows what price Julie has paid inside her own head. We do know that she has juggled career, family and charity work successfully for thirty years, much to her detractors' chagrin.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 08:05:PM by Steve_uk »

Offline Nigel

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1197
Re: Save me from blood-guiltiness, O God
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2018, 08:12:PM »
There is no spin. You're attributing four murders to a pitiful, ditzy young woman who couldn't hold down regular employment, couldn't form any meaningful relationship post-illness and whose deftness was severely impaired by the medication she was forced to consume. You sensationalize in the same way Jeremy Bamber has in the past from a prison cell by obfuscation with covert references to Rosemary's Baby and The Exorcist, and refuse to look at the bigger picture of who benefited from the demise of five individuals in one of the most heinous crimes of the late twentieth century.

Wow!, you are great Steve.
very impressed.
I slow down for a speeding police car, don't you?

6.01pm on Friday 6th September 1985 'Part 2' of the case began.

Offline maggie

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13651
Re: Save me from blood-guiltiness, O God
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2018, 07:59:AM »
June didn't really have time for her daughter at the best of times, and therein lay the tragedy. There is no report of Sheila being unpredictable and angry at all that week, from the gas man to Michael Horsnell, Julia and Len Foakes or the Tiptree shopkeeper, who remembered her vacant stare and smudged lipstick, synonymous of her illness and her desire to keep up appearances at all costs, yet only Colin knew the true Sheila and how vulnerable deep down she really was.
Again Steve you make sweeping statements.... 'June didn't really have time for her daughter' .... I thought June visited her daughter constantly taking food and paying bills. I don't claim June was perfect but she did appear to give up quite a lot of time to help her in a practical way.  Trying to help and support someone with PS is tremendously difficult and often thankless. You quote a shopkeeper, the gas man and other people who saw her in passing and dismiss June's obviously concerned discussion with Pamela on the night of the murder.  You have no idea how her mood fluctuated that week anymore than I have. Sheila was supposed to be 'stabalised' on her medication but she had a 'vacant stare' apparently at some point that day. I am not saying Sheila wasn't vulnerable,  of course she was, she was seriously mentally ill and taking seriously strong drugs with horrendous side effects, she was under massive stress and I feel compassion for her but I'm sure she was far from easy to deal with and probably quite unpredictable in her behavour.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 08:02:AM by maggie »

Offline lebaleb

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 884
Re: Save me from blood-guiltiness, O God
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2018, 09:56:AM »
There is no spin. You're attributing four murders to a pitiful, ditzy young woman who couldn't hold down regular employment, couldn't form any meaningful relationship post-illness and whose deftness was severely impaired by the medication she was forced to consume. You sensationalize in the same way Jeremy Bamber has in the past from a prison cell by obfuscation with covert references to Rosemary's Baby and The Exorcist, and refuse to look at the bigger picture of who benefited from the demise of five individuals in one of the most heinous crimes of the late twentieth century.

Steve, you tried to say that Sheila wasn't at all religious. You are wrong. It has been shown that during her episodes she was, and bizarrely so. I don't need your charity, thanks.
There is no such thing as 'Post-illness'. Dr Furguson says she was doomed to suffer more and more episodes.

Offline maggie

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13651
Re: Save me from blood-guiltiness, O God
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2018, 11:23:AM »
Steve, you tried to say that Sheila wasn't at all religious. You are wrong. It has been shown that during her episodes she was, and bizarrely so. I don't need your charity, thanks.
There is no such thing as 'Post-illness'. Dr Furguson says she was doomed to suffer more and more episodes.
You are right lebaleb it seems some minimise the seriousness of psychotic and schizophrenic illness and the ability of drugs such as Haloperidol to stabalise behavour.
The side effects of these drugs can cause as many problems as they solve including psychotic episodes.  Imo it is an insult to Sheila to say she was 'ditzy' she was struggling with a horrible illness and no doubt did her very best however that illness had unpredictable side effects. There are plenty of people at this moment struggling to suppprt a parent or child or partner etc with this illness who are at their wits end. 

Offline Nigel

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1197
Re: Save me from blood-guiltiness, O God
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2018, 11:52:AM »
As I have said before I have first hand experience of Haloperidol.

My brother who has been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia many years ago was on Haloperidol.

He tried to take his own life by cutting his throat.
 
Fortunately he got to the hospital in time due to the amazing emergency services.

Never underestimate the power of acute mental illness and drugs like Haloperidol.
I slow down for a speeding police car, don't you?

6.01pm on Friday 6th September 1985 'Part 2' of the case began.

Offline Steve_uk

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 17937
Re: Save me from blood-guiltiness, O God
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2018, 09:00:PM »
Again Steve you make sweeping statements.... 'June didn't really have time for her daughter' .... I thought June visited her daughter constantly taking food and paying bills. I don't claim June was perfect but she did appear to give up quite a lot of time to help her in a practical way.  Trying to help and support someone with PS is tremendously difficult and often thankless. You quote a shopkeeper, the gas man and other people who saw her in passing and dismiss June's obviously concerned discussion with Pamela on the night of the murder.  You have no idea how her mood fluctuated that week anymore than I have. Sheila was supposed to be 'stabalised' on her medication but she had a 'vacant stare' apparently at some point that day. I am not saying Sheila wasn't vulnerable,  of course she was, she was seriously mentally ill and taking seriously strong drugs with horrendous side effects, she was under massive stress and I feel compassion for her but I'm sure she was far from easy to deal with and probably quite unpredictable in her behavour.
You have to put this in a context of twenty eight years of mother-daughter relationship, where the baby was left with various caregivers, she was packed off to Moira House as a child, then finally moved to Hethersett after damage had already been done to her fragile ego, then the Devil's child remark which did reinforce her image of self-loathing and contributed to her self-harm. Maybe the schizophrenia was congenital and not acquired from June from the folie à deux phenomenon, but Sheila wanting her independence in London is indicative of their relationship, as was Colin's remark that her mental health always declined upon any visit to White House Farm. 

There may well have been a rapprochement towards the end of both their lives as June, possibly from the advice of the local vicar, was bent on affording her daughter a modicum of financial independence in the form of a quarterly allowance, but Sheila would be wary of the strings attached. For Jeremy it was too little too late as the love of his life, Suzette Ford, had been driven away by the actions of his parents, and the temptation to cash in through murder overrode all other considerations.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 09:11:PM by Steve_uk »

Offline Steve_uk

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 17937
Re: Save me from blood-guiltiness, O God
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2018, 09:09:PM »
As I have said before I have first hand experience of Haloperidol.

My brother who has been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia many years ago was on Haloperidol.

He tried to take his own life by cutting his throat.
 
Fortunately he got to the hospital in time due to the amazing emergency services.

Never underestimate the power of acute mental illness and drugs like Haloperidol.
But as the statistics prove he was far more a danger to himself than to others.

Offline maggie

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13651
Re: Save me from blood-guiltiness, O God
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2018, 09:55:AM »
But as the statistics prove he was far more a danger to himself than to others.
'far more' does not mean never Steve. I am aware it is true that suicide is far more of a danger than murder re Parancid Scizophrenia,  however murder and suicide or murder alone are not unknown. 
« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 10:38:AM by maggie »