Author Topic: "Murder, Mystery And My Family"  (Read 1227 times)

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Offline Jane

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"Murder, Mystery And My Family"
« on: March 05, 2018, 10:07:AM »
A series in which family members ask barristers to reexamine cases in which ancestors were convicted and subsequently hanged. Their new findings are then presented to a judge who decides whether or not the conviction was safe. The conclusion is never foregone. One can feel quite sentimental -on behalf of relatives eager to clear a family name- about certain cases and very certain that the original decision will be overturned, but it's a very rare occurrence. The interesting part is listening to the two barristers, one for the defense and one for the prosecution, arguing from opposite corners but totally supportive of each other's submissions if either is challenged for not presenting what the family representative hoped they would.

Offline lookout

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Re: "Murder, Mystery And My Family"
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2018, 10:57:AM »
Yes,those barristers are certainly humane characters--------a far cry from the WHF case !!
They are a credit to the justice system as it SHOULD be. Maybe it IS a reflection on how todays cases are conducted with transparency as key and no stone left unturned.
Considering that these are cold cases it proves how far we have come from 30+ years ago and also how much more knowledgeable barristers are. Hence the reason why there were so many hangings pre-mid 60's.
Because of these programmes,it gives me more hope for JB's situation.     

Offline Jane

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Re: "Murder, Mystery And My Family"
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2018, 12:12:PM »
Yes,those barristers are certainly humane characters--------a far cry from the WHF case !!
They are a credit to the justice system as it SHOULD be. Maybe it IS a reflection on how todays cases are conducted with transparency as key and no stone left unturned.
Considering that these are cold cases it proves how far we have come from 30+ years ago and also how much more knowledgeable barristers are. Hence the reason why there were so many hangings pre-mid 60's.
Because of these programmes,it gives me more hope for JB's situation.   

But we have no idea what was the personal relationship between Jeremy's defense team and the prosecution team. I can't believe that minds aren't made up within the first few minutes of involvement with a case -imagine having to prosecute someone you believe innocent, OR defend someone you believe guilty- but at the end of the day, all they can do is their job and leave it to the jury.

Offline lookout

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Re: "Murder, Mystery And My Family"
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2018, 01:07:PM »
But we have no idea what was the personal relationship between Jeremy's defense team and the prosecution team. I can't believe that minds aren't made up within the first few minutes of involvement with a case -imagine having to prosecute someone you believe innocent, OR defend someone you believe guilty- but at the end of the day, all they can do is their job and leave it to the jury.






The police are the first to arrive at the scene of a murder and it is down to them to carry out a full investigation,supported by the forensic team.
The end product are the jury who rely on evidence handed to them in court.If half this evidence is missing,and the jury aren't aware,then how they vote with what they have in front of them,is the last say as regards sentencing.
If I'd been on the jury at the JB trial and with the evidence produced,I too would have voted guilty. Why the final vote of 10-2 came about given the gravity of the crime,a brutal murder of 5 people,I'll never know ! Wouldn't YOU have thought it a full 12 ??
 Except----------that knowing years later documents which should have been presented at trial had been kept back. For the reason that it had been rigged are my thoughts !

I can't bear the thought that people get raw deals when it comes to the law and because I was obviously born to help, I will support anyone,and have done,the JB case being no exception.

Lindy Chamberlain.
Louise Woodward.
The McCanns.
Eddie Gilfoyle.
Jeremy Bamber.   

Offline Jane

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Re: "Murder, Mystery And My Family"
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2018, 01:42:PM »





The police are the first to arrive at the scene of a murder and it is down to them to carry out a full investigation,supported by the forensic team.
The end product are the jury who rely on evidence handed to them in court.If half this evidence is missing,and the jury aren't aware,then how they vote with what they have in front of them,is the last say as regards sentencing.
If I'd been on the jury at the JB trial and with the evidence produced,I too would have voted guilty. Why the final vote of 10-2 came about given the gravity of the crime,a brutal murder of 5 people,I'll never know ! Wouldn't YOU have thought it a full 12 ??
 Except----------that knowing years later documents which should have been presented at trial had been kept back. For the reason that it had been rigged are my thoughts !

I can't bear the thought that people get raw deals when it comes to the law and because I was obviously born to help, I will support anyone,and have done,the JB case being no exception.

Lindy Chamberlain.
Louise Woodward.
The McCanns.
Eddie Gilfoyle.
Jeremy Bamber.   

A) None of us, with hindsight, can say that it was their finest investigation, however, I feel bound to ask, as most of their alleged failures occurred during the first hours, had they stuck with murder/suicide, would there now be this dispute over which bodies were where, who shot Sheila, and who died first?

B) I have little faith in what we're told is hidden in PII,especially when I'm told it's a specific piece of evidence. If the knowledge of where it is is in the public domain, it's not exactly hidden. It also seems to be a convenient fall-back answer for anything which can't be otherwise/is chosen not to be answered. It's very possible that we've been brainwashed into believing certain things to be true, which are not. Most of us only need to find out we've been lied to once. We won't get taken for mugs a second time.

C) I don't know what I'd have voted had I been on the jury. It must be remembered that, at the time, I didn't want him to be guilty. I can fully accept that a couple of people chose not to vote with the others. That's not to say I'd have liked it. It feels safer/establishes our own sense of being right when everyone agrees.

D) You're not alone in hating injustice. It may surprise you to know that there are thousands of us. We simply don't share the same views of what constitutes it.

Offline lookout

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Re: "Murder, Mystery And My Family"
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2018, 02:25:PM »
If EP's initial investigation had followed the rules of a crime scene ( brutal murder ) by 1.) wearing protective gloves,2. ) engaging with an appropriately dressed forensic team, 3. ) a cordon around the property--------then they would have been taken seriously. No wonder Nevill called them " Dads Army " !
Imagine any police force being branded in such a way ? Would you have felt at ease if you needed them ?

Because none of this happened there was immediate contamination. The half-wit photographer had moved the rifle umpteen times,wiping away any prints that would have been present  ::)
 The GP had just glanced at the bodies to pronounce them deceased,with no approximate T.O.D. recorded,thus causing mayhem when it came to the Will.

It's safe to say that if this crime happened today,30 odd years later,that the whole outcome would be different because firstly the better understanding of mental health issues and everything that goes with it----initial diagnosis,medication,and support would be given in conjunction with their specific illness.   

The main reason for being here,well mine,is the fact that because certain items of paperwork were withheld that could have made a vast difference and whether you vote guilty or innocent,you must agree that the trial was and remains to this day,very unsafe.
There HAS to be a reason why you're here too ? Otherwise where does your interest lie when he's already been sentenced ?

Offline Jane

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Re: "Murder, Mystery And My Family"
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2018, 03:18:PM »
If EP's initial investigation had followed the rules of a crime scene ( brutal murder ) by 1.) wearing protective gloves,2. ) engaging with an appropriately dressed forensic team, 3. ) a cordon around the property--------then they would have been taken seriously. No wonder Nevill called them " Dads Army " !
Imagine any police force being branded in such a way ? Would you have felt at ease if you needed them ?

Because none of this happened there was immediate contamination. The half-wit photographer had moved the rifle umpteen times,wiping away any prints that would have been present  ::)
 The GP had just glanced at the bodies to pronounce them deceased,with no approximate T.O.D. recorded,thus causing mayhem when it came to the Will.

It's safe to say that if this crime happened today,30 odd years later,that the whole outcome would be different because firstly the better understanding of mental health issues and everything that goes with it----initial diagnosis,medication,and support would be given in conjunction with their specific illness.   

The main reason for being here,well mine,is the fact that because certain items of paperwork were withheld that could have made a vast difference and whether you vote guilty or innocent,you must agree that the trial was and remains to this day,very unsafe.
There HAS to be a reason why you're here too ? Otherwise where does your interest lie when he's already been sentenced ?

Lookout, are you simply NOT hearing what I'm saying, or CHOOSING not to?

None of what you've said in the above post would have occurred had they gone along with murder/suicide. Certainly, no one would have questioned whether or not they'd worn gloves or engaged "with an appropriately dressed forensic team". It wouldn't have mattered about contamination, or the amount of times the photographer moved a rifle. Prints certainly wouldn't have mattered. The GP was probably told that the victims' son had explained that his mentally ill sister was likely to have been responsible, so he probably considered a full evaluation unnecessary. Whilst we're continually reminded of ALL that paperwork -which could set Jeremy free- is being withheld, I'm not convinced that ANYTHING, which would have changed the outcome, is being withheld. We can only pass judgement on what we know of the trial, so we can't say, with certainty, that it was unfair. Maybe counsel was only as good as their client?

 I'm basically a trusting soul, but once I find out I've been lied to once, because I'm fully aware that once one lie is told, it requires several more to cover the fact, I won't be caught twice. I find it hard to believe that you've sucked it all up without voicing doubts, but maybe that's what being a supporter is all about?

You ask why I'm here? Proximity to where it happened. Personal knowledge of the families involved. Empathy with the kind of upbringing that Sheila and Jeremy experienced. The psychology and agenda of all those involved in the case.

Offline lookout

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Re: "Murder, Mystery And My Family"
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2018, 04:58:PM »
Lookout, are you simply NOT hearing what I'm saying, or CHOOSING not to?

None of what you've said in the above post would have occurred had they gone along with murder/suicide. Certainly, no one would have questioned whether or not they'd worn gloves or engaged "with an appropriately dressed forensic team". It wouldn't have mattered about contamination, or the amount of times the photographer moved a rifle. Prints certainly wouldn't have mattered. The GP was probably told that the victims' son had explained that his mentally ill sister was likely to have been responsible, so he probably considered a full evaluation unnecessary. Whilst we're continually reminded of ALL that paperwork -which could set Jeremy free- is being withheld, I'm not convinced that ANYTHING, which would have changed the outcome, is being withheld. We can only pass judgement on what we know of the trial, so we can't say, with certainty, that it was unfair. Maybe counsel was only as good as their client?

 I'm basically a trusting soul, but once I find out I've been lied to once, because I'm fully aware that once one lie is told, it requires several more to cover the fact, I won't be caught twice. I find it hard to believe that you've sucked it all up without voicing doubts, but maybe that's what being a supporter is all about?

You ask why I'm here? Proximity to where it happened. Personal knowledge of the families involved. Empathy with the kind of upbringing that Sheila and Jeremy experienced. The psychology and agenda of all those involved in the case.






" Not hearing or choosing not to hear ?" Now I wonder where that came from------ ::)

I haven't written anything that would indicate that I'd lost all sense of understanding when answering your post.
Why is it that you " empathise " with the kind of upbringing that Sheila and Jeremy had ? Their upbringing was one of privileges,values, good manners,respect,generosity and kindness ( to a fault ) . Sadly offset by their mother's ongoing illness,but apart from that,what was wrong with their upbringing ? I've certainly heard of worse,haven't you ??

Offline Jane

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Re: "Murder, Mystery And My Family"
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2018, 05:22:PM »





" Not hearing or choosing not to hear ?" Now I wonder where that came from------ ::)

I haven't written anything that would indicate that I'd lost all sense of understanding when answering your post.
Why is it that you " empathise " with the kind of upbringing that Sheila and Jeremy had ? Their upbringing was one of privileges,values, good manners,respect,generosity and kindness ( to a fault ) . Sadly offset by their mother's ongoing illness,but apart from that,what was wrong with their upbringing ? I've certainly heard of worse,haven't you ??

"Not hearing or not choosing to hear" comes entirely from my own experience of how you answered my post. It's true, I could have softened it by suggesting that you failed to fully understand it, but I suspect you'd have taken it the wrong way.

I CAN empathize with the kind of upbringing Sheila and Jeremy had, because my own, along with my beginnings, were as similar as makes no difference. If you really need me to outline what was wrong with their upbringing, you lack all understanding of them, and this case.

Offline lookout

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Re: "Murder, Mystery And My Family"
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2018, 05:31:PM »
"Not hearing or not choosing to hear" comes entirely from my own experience of how you answered my post. It's true, I could have softened it by suggesting that you failed to fully understand it, but I suspect you'd have taken it the wrong way.

I CAN empathize with the kind of upbringing Sheila and Jeremy had, because my own, along with my beginnings, were as similar as makes no difference. If you really need me to outline what was wrong with their upbringing, you lack all understanding of them, and this case.






As you would say " we're not talking about YOUR beginnings,this isn't about you !

Your way of backing out of a corner is,as usual,to belittle by stating that I have no understanding. You certainly know how to use the art of craft ! 

It was you who brought the upbringing up-----------so it's up to you to say why you empathise.

Offline Jane

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Re: "Murder, Mystery And My Family"
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2018, 05:49:PM »





As you would say " we're not talking about YOUR beginnings,this isn't about you !

Your way of backing out of a corner is,as usual,to belittle by stating that I have no understanding. You certainly know how to use the art of craft ! 

It was you who brought the upbringing up-----------so it's up to you to say why you empathise.

Did you, or did you not ask why I was interested in this case? Why are you now highlighting ONE of my reasons for being interested? If you believe that Sheila and Jeremy had a "privileged" upbringing "to a fault" I will stick with my belief that you show no understanding. I bought up upbringing because their lives don't centre on the short time we know about around the murders. Their upbringing started when they were bought into the family. You accuse me of using the art of craft, but I suggest you might be employing it by your duplicitous way of trying to get me to speak about my empathy..................after which, you'll probably say "It's not about you".

Offline lookout

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Re: "Murder, Mystery And My Family"
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2018, 06:20:PM »
I'll ask another question.

In view of the KNOWN withheld documents which could have been advantageous to Jeremy at trial,do you think it fair or not that the said documents weren't presented ?

Offline Jane

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Re: "Murder, Mystery And My Family"
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2018, 06:40:PM »
I'll ask another question.

In view of the KNOWN withheld documents which could have been advantageous to Jeremy at trial,do you think it fair or not that the said documents weren't presented ?

I believe there is disparity between what you and I believe to be "KNOWN". I simply don't trust the phrase "Evidence exists.........." -and I find it hard to get my head round that it's 'KNOWN' that there is hidden documentation which could free him if it's hidden- and without having proof of that evidence, I'm unable to reach any conclusion.

Offline lookout

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Re: "Murder, Mystery And My Family"
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2018, 06:50:PM »
I believe there is disparity between what you and I believe to be "KNOWN". I simply don't trust the phrase "Evidence exists.........." -and I find it hard to get my head round that it's 'KNOWN' that there is hidden documentation which could free him if it's hidden- and without having proof of that evidence, I'm unable to reach any conclusion.






So once again-----no straight answer. What are you scared of ? Are you frightened for your loyalty towards those who know that you're on their side ?
Why would nearly 6,000 members of the public bother to sign a petition requesting withheld information if there was no such thing ?
Your problem is that you're not true to yourself--------and that's not good.

Offline Jane

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Re: "Murder, Mystery And My Family"
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2018, 07:06:PM »





So once again-----no straight answer. What are you scared of ? Are you frightened for your loyalty towards those who know that you're on their side ?
Why would nearly 6,000 members of the public bother to sign a petition requesting withheld information if there was no such thing ?
Your problem is that you're not true to yourself--------and that's not good.

I will give you a straight answer when any question you ask of me permits. Thus far, all you asked of me is to verify or deny your own beliefs. They're NOT my beliefs and I feel unable to judge what I consider to be, at best, hypothetical. I really have no answer for why 6000 people would sign a petition about something so tenuous, other than to suggest that there are many more who haven't.

"Your problem is..........." Ha!! How I'd love just 1p for every time I've heard that. I'm nothing, if not true to myself, Lookout, and I refuse to be coerced..............but your anger is beginning to show.