Questions on the apparent red toe nail polish in the kitchen.

[Caroline]

Did I say that  ?

Not in so many words ....... however

[Steve_uk]

Not in so many words ....... however

Do you think that deep down Sheila had a grudging respect for her mother, despite all the trials and tribulations both of them endured?

[Caroline]

Do you think that deep down Sheila had a grudging respect for her mother, despite all the trials and tribulations both of them endured?

I do Steve and like most daughters, she probably didn't like the interference but, both her parents were a constant in her life and they were there when she needed them.

[Jane]

Do you think that deep down Sheila had a grudging respect for her mother, despite all the trials and tribulations both of them endured?

Steve, I think Sheila's relationship with June would have been hugely complex. Children love their parents unconditionally -rather like puppies and kittens love their owners. The love shared by parent and child is the only time they will experience unconditional love. I have the feeling that this wasn't the sort of love June held for Sheila as she continued to mature and stray further from the path June had prescribed for her, and I have no doubt that it left her feeling she she'd never please June.

 It's possible that Sheila always felt conflicted between doing what June wanted -to gain her love- and following a path more suited to who she was. There may also have been, factored into this unhealthy mix, gratitude to June, on Sheila's part, for 'rescuing' her. Added to that would be guilt for not being able to be the daughter June wanted her to be, compounded by all the material benefits which continued to be heaped on her.

 Children who have been made to feel unworthy, generally don't feel anger towards those responsible for that feeling, anger being the prerogative of the deserving. Having failed at so much, it's unlikely that Sheila would have felt deserving. It's because of this that I believe she never stopped craving, and trying to gain, June's approval.

[maggie]

I do Steve and like most daughters, she probably didn't like the interference but, both her parents were a constant in her life and they were there when she needed them.

I agree, they were caring, supportivr parents,  I have often argued that June did not deserve to be blamed for all Sheila's problems however adopted children have particular needs which require sensitive understanding. When Sheila and Jeremy were adopted, societies were more interested in matching hair and eye colour.  No one thought of the emotional needs of the child. Would guess  neither of the Parents were particularly blessed with emotional intelligence so it probably didn't occur to them these children were emotionally affected by loss of their natural mother in particular.  In their eyes they were lucky children with the best money could buy but we know now that isn't the answer and with a combination of other circumstances can be lethal.  I believe both of those children where starved of the love and protection they needed, both suffered and both tried to hide behind their good looks and status but that never works, behind the bravado were two lost children.

[Jane]

I agree, they were caring, supportivr parents,  I have often argued that June did not deserve to be blamed for all Sheila's problems however adopted children have particular needs which require sensitive understanding. When Sheila and Jeremy were adopted, societies were more interested in matching hair and eye colour.  No one thought of the emotional needs of the child. Would guess  neither of the Parents were particularly blessed with emotional intelligence so it probably didn't occur to them these children were emotionally affected by loss of their natural mother in particular.  In their eyes they were lucky children with the best money could buy but we know now that isn't the answer and with a combination of other circumstances can be lethal.  I believe both of those children where starved of the love and protection they needed, both suffered and both tried to hide behind their good looks and status but that never works, behind the bravado were two lost children.

In those days -and prior- when children weren't known to have emotional needs and were referred to as "it" as in "We were told if we treated it the same as us it would get to be like us", all that was required of the child was to show proper gratitude for the chance of a 'good' life. I agree that both children were starved of love, but I feel also, that one of them had been cowed enough to feel she didn't deserve it.

[maggie]

In those days -and prior- when children weren't known to have emotional needs and were referred to as "it" as in "We were told if we treated it the same as us it would get to be like us", all that was required of the child was to show proper gratitude for the chance of a 'good' life. I agree that both children were starved of love, but I feel also, that one of them had been cowed enough to feel she didn't deserve it.

I agree but I cannot agree that one child suffered more than the other.  Sheila's suffering was to a point more visible whereas who knows what Jeremy suffered and buried?  The often mentioned arrogance etc. is usually a cover for lack of confidence and self worth.  We know Sheila threw her pain and anger and lack of self belief  at Colin. Breaking his artworks in front of him was incredibly cruel but she is excused because she was sick, desperate for love, Jeremy shows his distress in differtent ways but he's labelled arrogant, etc. They were both heavy drug users,  both searching for love. ... not that much difference except Sheila had schizophrenia and as far as we know Jeremy didn't/doesn't have a mental health illness....  If he's innocenthe I doubt he has escaped PTSD. imo either of themwere emotionally unstable enough to lose control that night. Nothing convinces me JB is a psychopath, there is no real proof of that but rather a handy label to prove a point.

[lookout]

JB will certainly have to be treated for PTSD when he's released. Something he might think he can fight without intervention--------but he'd be wrong.

[Jane]

I agree but I cannot agree that one child suffered more than the other.  Sheila's suffering was to a point more visible whereas who knows what Jeremy suffered and buried?  The often mentioned arrogance etc. is usually a cover for lack of confidence and self worth.  We know Sheila threw her pain and anger and lack of self belief  at Colin. Breaking his artworks in front of him was incredibly cruel but she is excused because she was sick, desperate for love, Jeremy shows his distress in differtent ways but he's labelled arrogant, etc. They were both heavy drug users,  both searching for love. ... not that much difference except Sheila had schizophrenia and as far as we know Jeremy didn't/doesn't have a mental health illness....  If he's innocenthe I doubt he has escaped PTSD. imo either of themwere emotionally unstable enough to lose control that night. Nothing convinces me JB is a psychopath, there is no real proof of that but rather a handy label to prove a point.

I agree. However, suffering takes different forms in us all. It maybe that Jeremy didn't feel as emotionally cowed and unworthy as I believe Sheila felt -after all, he'd have been made aware that he was the heir, whereas Sheila's success depended largely on her living up to standards set for her- which could have been a breeding ground for his anger. I think there will always be a question-mark -even between psychologists- hanging over whether or not he's a psychopath. It's hard to imagine anyone, who isn't mentally ill, committing such a crime and not being. A statement -it might give a clue- which comes to mind immediately is the one in which he suggested to Colin that the boys were mill stones round his neck!!! (this was the same person who was allegedly hoping to have a child with Susan Ford!!!) It certainly shows appalling lack of sensitivity. It COULD have been a reflection of how he saw himself in relation to Nevill and June..................HOWEVER, there has been nothing about his rose coloured memories of his childhood to suggest it to have been the case.

[maggie]

I agree. However, suffering takes different forms in us all. It maybe that Jeremy didn't feel as emotionally cowed and unworthy as I believe Sheila felt -after all, he'd have been made aware that he was the heir, whereas Sheila's success depended largely on her living up to standards set for her- which could have been a breeding ground for his anger. I think there will always be a question-mark -even between psychologists- hanging over whether or not he's a psychopath. It's hard to imagine anyone, who isn't mentally ill, committing such a crime and not being. A statement -it might give a clue- which comes to mind immediately is the one in which he suggested to Colin that the boys were mill stones round his neck!!! (this was the same person who was allegedly hoping to have a child with Susan Ford!!!) It certainly shows appalling lack of sensitivity. It COULD have been a reflection of how he saw himself in relation to Nevill and June..................HOWEVER, there has been nothing about his rose coloured memories of his childhood to suggest it to have been the case.

True enough except think we have to be careful with qyotes/misquotea and hearsay, imo we don't know what was said and why, often things are repeated our of context therefore it depends on the intent behind the words. I am aware that little boys and men are far less equipped to express themselves verbally and emotionally than females therefore we should all be wary of being judgemental and I include myself in that as I am aware I have been at times.

[Caroline]

I agree, they were caring, supportivr parents,  I have often argued that June did not deserve to be blamed for all Sheila's problems however adopted children have particular needs which require sensitive understanding. When Sheila and Jeremy were adopted, societies were more interested in matching hair and eye colour.  No one thought of the emotional needs of the child. Would guess  neither of the Parents were particularly blessed with emotional intelligence so it probably didn't occur to them these children were emotionally affected by loss of their natural mother in particular.  In their eyes they were lucky children with the best money could buy but we know now that isn't the answer and with a combination of other circumstances can be lethal.  I believe both of those children where starved of the love and protection they needed, both suffered and both tried to hide behind their good looks and status but that never works, behind the bravado were two lost children.

I don't pretend to know about adoption, although I do know the effects of it (my mum was kind of adopted - brought up by her gran and believed her real mother was her sister). I think regardless of what kind of home you grow up in, for most, there will always be an internal conflict in coming to terms with feelings of abandonment. My mum found out from her aunt (who at the time she thought was her sister also), when she was about nine years of age. I know it has been a struggle for her and although she is part of this family genetically, she has always felt outside. I think for the Bambers, sending Sheila and Jeremy to boarding school at such a young age couldn't have been easy for them, especially as Jeremy was only told about the adoption a short while before. Do you think that there is an argument in favour of not telling the child they were adopted (whenever that is possible)?

[Jane]

I don't pretend to know about adoption, although I do know the effects of it (my mum was kind of adopted - brought up by her gran and believed her real mother was her sister). I think regardless of what kind of home you grow up in, for most, there will always be an internal conflict in coming to terms with feelings of abandonment. My mum found out from her aunt (who at the time she thought was her sister also), when she was about nine years of age. I know it has been a struggle for her and although she is part of this family genetically, she has always felt outside. I think for the Bambers, sending Sheila and Jeremy to boarding school at such a young age couldn't have been easy for them, especially as Jeremy was only told about the adoption a short while before. Do you think that there is an argument in favour of not telling the child they were adopted (whenever that is possible)?

Caroline, I think it would be almost impossible to achieve. Adopted children, today, have a legal right to access everything pertaining to their adoption, indeed, are encouraged to find birth parents which CAN -has the potential- open another can of worms. There is also the problem which will arise if the child feels -as did your mum- 'outside' (and she was genetically 'inside') but has no idea why. The adult 'child' who finds out, at a much later date, about it's origins would feel justified in feeling lied to. The best way MAY be to introduce adoption into conversation whilst the child is too young to remember when such a conversation started..................however, I also feel that great care must be taken NOT to overstress the child's 'specialness' as believing themselves to be so can have the effect of setting them apart.

[Caroline]

Caroline, I think it would be almost impossible to achieve. Adopted children, today, have a legal right to access everything pertaining to their adoption, indeed, are encouraged to find birth parents which CAN -has the potential- open another can of worms. There is also the problem which will arise if the child feels -as did your mum- 'outside' (and she was genetically 'inside') but has no idea why. The adult 'child' who finds out, at a much later date, about it's origins would feel justified in feeling lied to. The best way MAY be to introduce adoption into conversation whilst the child is too young to remember when such a conversation started..................however, I also feel that great care must be taken NOT to overstress the child's 'specialness' as believing themselves to be so can have the effect of setting them apart.

Yes, I know that's the law but I mean in an ideal world. Might it not be better not to tell them or at least have a choice?

[Jane]

Yes, I know that's the law but I mean in an ideal world. Might it not be better not to tell them or at least have a choice?

I think that's too big a question for me to answer. I can visualize the later ramifications..................don't you think it might be rather like the giant conspiracy we're asked to believe about Jeremy being framed? How does one gag all those concerned?

[Caroline]

I think that's too big a question for me to answer. I can visualize the later ramifications..................don't you think it might be rather like the giant conspiracy we're asked to believe about Jeremy being framed? How does one gag all those concerned?

No, that's not what I meant - I'm not saying it should be a law, but down to choice.