Author Topic: Time to accept Sheila was dead before the police arrived at WHF:  (Read 5561 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mike tesko

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51079
Re: Time to accept Sheila was dead before the police arrived at WHF:
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2018, 08:39:PM »
Please allow me to throw my penneth into this ring of debate - I represented my sister and our family at the coroners court in Nottingham in relation to the death of my nephew.  What I learned about the length of time which had elapsed between death in my nephews case and the time he was pronounced as being dead by the paramedic who attended the address where he had supposedly died of a suspected overdose of heroin. Anyway, to cut to the chase during cross examination off the senior paramedic who attended the incident I found out something which I fear was totally lacking at white house farm in relation to each of the bodies of the five victims (Neville, June, Sheila, Daniel andd Nicholas), nevertheless I fear that there may have been purpose behind why the police surgeon had not, did not take the body temperature of each victim, since this can sometimes give a good indication to the time of actual death. Please hear me out before anybody starts jumping on my back trying to bring me down or whatever...

It turns out that at the time the paramedic pronounced my nephew as being deceased, that his body temperature was so low that the paramedic said that in his opinion my nephew must have been dead for 12/14 hours beforehand because his core body temperature was very low. Infact, it turns out that because it was so low in temperature it had plumitted well below room temperature. I can't remember the specifics exactly as I speak but it became clear that my nephew had been dead far longer than the people at the address had said they last knew him to be alive. I learned that after death a body reduces in temperature at such and such a rate, but that after either 10 or 12 hours  the body core temperature will reach the ambeint temperature of the environment death had occurred in / at..

As a result of this information we were able to strongly suspect that the people who had reported discovering my nephews body at around 7am, that morning had claimed they had last seen him alive at midnight some 7 hours previously when he went out to an all night grocery store come petrol staion to purchase some 'munchies', or whatever. Obviously because of the temperature of my nephews body being well below the ambeint room temperature of the place he had supposedly died in, it became obvious that these people had been lying through their teeth because my nephew had been dead from as long as around 6 to 7pm the previous evening. Anyway, the coroners job was to determine thee cause of death not whether or not he had been murdered, or caused his own death by drug overdose (but thats another story)...

My point is this, why didn't the police surgeon take the body temperatures of the five victims when pronouncing them as being dead in turn?


Seems to me that there was no interest in determining the time of death in Sheila caffells case because police knew that she had only very recently died, or as the case may well be, she was still barely alive at the time Dr Craig pronounced her as being dead from what appeared to be a gunshot wound to the neck, her death was recorded at 8.44am, her body being on the far side of the bed at that stage. Not to be forgotten is the fact that Sheila's body can only have been the female body found in the kitchen along with Neville Bambers body on entry, (as per the police radio message log version of timed events) because June Bambers death could not be described as having been a suicide by anybody's standards. It seems obvious to me that the senior officers did not want the police surgeon taking Sheila Caffells body temperature because it could have proven very damaging toward what cops were trying to do. My take on what they were trying to do, was that they were trying to buy themselves time, to find an accceptible explanation for Sheila's apparent death originally believed to have occurred downstairs in the kitchen, (7.35am, onwards) albeit she had recovered consciousness and made her way upstairs and recollapsed on top of her parents bed. I know that there was supposed to have been a shout out of 'where is SOCO'? But, that's all nonsense because from 9am until 10.00am DC Henderson and DC Oakley (SOCO) were operating alongside and under the direction of senior officers inside the farmhouse, in particular inbetween the kitchen downstairs, and the main bedroom upstairs. I have decided that either DC Oakley or DC Henderson took the photograph of Sheila's body laid on top of the bed that I seized from Ewen Smiths office and sent in to Jeremy Bamber at HMP Full Sutton. It must have been one or other of these two SOCO's because by the time Ron Cook and PC Bird entered the main bedroom scene it was gone 10.00am, and by that stage Sheila's body had already been transferred to the main bedroom floor from on top of the bed an hour or so earlier...

So, any claim that senior officers were trying to show concern about when SOCO would be arriving was part of the deception they were preparing for (SOCO were already there, playing an active role in the cover up and restaging of the kitchen  and main bedroom scenes)...
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 08:48:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Adam

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 38228
Re: Time to accept Sheila was dead before the police arrived at WHF:
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2018, 08:41:PM »
The prosecution successfully put a case that Sheila was shot around 2pm.

David saying pictures show Sheila was shot after the police arrived doesn't persuade me. Bamber's been in prison for 32 years so it's obviously not the case.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline David1819

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 12638
Re: Time to accept Sheila was dead before the police arrived at WHF:
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2018, 08:48:PM »
Yes she was and you can see it on the photographs.

You can say that all you want, it does not make it so.

I have asked you numerous times in the past to point out the red/purple discolouration that should be on Sheila's limbs. Nothing was ever forthcoming. On one occasion you responded by informing me I was to be put on your ignore list.

Offline Caroline

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 27075
Re: Time to accept Sheila was dead before the police arrived at WHF:
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2018, 08:58:PM »
You can say that all you want, it does not make it so.

I have asked you numerous times in the past to point out the red/purple discolouration that should be on Sheila's limbs. Nothing was ever forthcoming. On one occasion you responded by informing me I was to be put on your ignore list.

Oh really? I posted pictures that showed discolouration and you just dismissed it - which is what I knew you would do and you'll do the same now. You can dismiss it all you like but it doesn't make what you say 'so' either!  ::)

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7894.msg374348.html#msg374348

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7894.msg374456.html#msg374456



Don't kn ow how man times I have drawn your attention to the discolouration on her face but all you do is post either pictures of totally unrelated cases or the poor picture of June which has a high red hue.







Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline Caroline

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 27075
Re: Time to accept Sheila was dead before the police arrived at WHF:
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2018, 09:05:PM »
Area enlarged.
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline Jan

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 10318
Re: Time to accept Sheila was dead before the police arrived at WHF:
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2018, 09:18:PM »
No specific time of death was established for any of the victims ( possible perpetrator) if there had of been then we would not have this forum .

Offline Caroline

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 27075
Re: Time to accept Sheila was dead before the police arrived at WHF:
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2018, 09:25:PM »
No specific time of death was established for any of the victims ( possible perpetrator) if there had of been then we would not have this forum .

I don't believe anyone said a time of death had been established?
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline David1819

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 12638
Re: Time to accept Sheila was dead before the police arrived at WHF:
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2018, 10:05:PM »
Area enlarged.




And like I said, Its not there. Drawing arrows in a pale area that is supposed to be darker red and purple contrast to the rest of the body does not make it so. You could at leased move the right arrow closer to shadowy line beyond the coverage of the flash and try and sell that as hypostasis to someone who cannot see past their own nose.

Offline David1819

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 12638
Re: Time to accept Sheila was dead before the police arrived at WHF:
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2018, 10:10:PM »
No specific time of death was established for any of the victims ( possible perpetrator) if there had of been then we would not have this forum .

You would have to blame Dr Craig for that. But to be fair. According to the Dickinson enquiry, the police never asked him to establish it.

Offline mike tesko

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51079
Re: Time to accept Sheila was dead before the police arrived at WHF:
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2018, 10:30:PM »
You would have to blame Dr Craig for that. But to be fair. According to the Dickinson enquiry, the police never asked him to establish it.

Yeah, and there was a good reason why police at the scene did not asked Dr Craig to estimate a time of death, and anyway when Craig pronounced Sheila as being dead at 8.44am, she wasn't actually dead at that time, she was deeply unconscious and her body was on the far side of the bed, not on the floor and she only had a single gun shot wound in her neck by that stage. It is also rather somewhat compelling that about 20 minutes or so after Dr Craig saw Sheila's body on the far side of the bed, that Stan Jones and Mick Clark's visited the main bedroom scene and saw Sheila and June's bodies laid on top of the bed side by side one another, with the rifle resting on the bed in-between the two bodies, and Sheila had a Bible on her chest! At that stage Stan Jones thought that Sheila had only been shot once and did not find out until much later on that she had in fact been shot twice in the heck! Sheila died on the main bedroom floor after her body was shifted from on top of the bed onto the floor!
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline David1819

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 12638
Re: Time to accept Sheila was dead before the police arrived at WHF:
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2018, 10:35:PM »
If Sheila had been dead for over six hours. One would expect her limbs to appear more or less as they do on the right like Junes. But they don't. Her limbs appear as they do in the unaltered photograph to the left (obviously)
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 10:44:PM by David1819 »

Offline Caroline

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 27075
Re: Time to accept Sheila was dead before the police arrived at WHF:
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2018, 11:23:PM »
And like I said, Its not there. Drawing arrows in a pale area that is supposed to be darker red and purple contrast to the rest of the body does not make it so. You could at leased move the right arrow closer to shadowy line beyond the coverage of the flash and try and sell that as hypostasis to someone who cannot see past their own nose.

Yes it is, you're doing what you usually do, just keep repeating the opposite in the hope that others will join you. I know you can see it and I certainly can so your argument is futile. By the way, lividity takes between 2 and 8 hours - it doesn't mean that after 2 hours it's fixed!
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline David1819

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 12638
Re: Time to accept Sheila was dead before the police arrived at WHF:
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2018, 12:17:AM »
Yes it is, you're doing what you usually do, just keep repeating the opposite in the hope that others will join you.

Why are you projecting?

I know you can see it and I certainly can so your argument is futile.

Its not there. Your only option is to pretend it is there. Otherwise you would have to fall back on the final proposition. That is "both Sheila and Jeremy done it together" In some sinuous labyrinthine plot that makes no sense what so ever. So its understandable why you wont take that path. Well not yet anyway.

By the way lividity takes between 2 and 8 hours - it doesn't mean that after 2 hours it's fixed!

I never said it did. Nor is the timing of it being "fixed" relevant. Because that's only important if someone moved the body or pressed her skin many hours after death.

What is important is the timing of "Mottled/Punctate Small patches" and most importantly the timing of "Maximum intensity"

« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 12:38:AM by David1819 »

Offline Caroline

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 27075
Re: Time to accept Sheila was dead before the police arrived at WHF:
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2018, 01:13:AM »
Why are you projecting?

Its not there. Your only option is to pretend it is there. Otherwise you would have to fall back on the final proposition. That is "both Sheila and Jeremy done it together" In some sinuous labyrinthine plot that makes no sense what so ever. So its understandable why you wont take that path. Well not yet anyway.

I never said it did. Nor is the timing of it being "fixed" relevant. Because that's only important if someone moved the body or pressed her skin many hours after death.

What is important is the timing of "Mottled/Punctate Small patches" and most importantly the timing of "Maximum intensity"



Today you will be mostly impersonating Steph

It is there and you KNOW it!
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline Adam

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 38228
Re: Time to accept Sheila was dead before the police arrived at WHF:
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2018, 11:39:AM »
It is very strange that Sheila stayed alive for 4 hours while the police were outside.

I wonder what she was thinking while police cars were arriving & the police were walking around WHF.  The police even tried contacting her via a loud speaker.

She could have given herself up or shouted back at the police through a window.

She could have fired bullets back at the police if she thought they were enemies. She had just brutally killed her father, & her defenceless mother & sons in a psychotic rage after all.

Michael Ryan was surrounded by police & kept in constant contact with them while they were outside. Both verbally & by firing bullets. However no one heard or saw a pip from Sheila for 4 hours. The police simply found her laying on the floor upstairs.

Mike & David have said, Sheila kept herself alive. Only Sheila knows why she chose to keep herself alive & what she silently & invisibly did for those 4 hours in the dark. That information she has taken to her grave.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 11:43:AM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.