Author Topic: Neville Bambers firearm certificate all in order in 1984...  (Read 905 times)

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Offline Real Justice

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Re: Neville Bambers firearm certificate all in order in 1984...
« Reply #90 on: September 16, 2020, 09:00:PM »
But he had to turn up.  What if Nevill then reassured him?  What if then somebody at Essex Police asked why, on the morning of 7th. August, they found a gun cupboard not properly secure?
Well why aren’t they asking him this if there wasn’t, no one questions it so he must have been able to satisfy some sort of gun cupboard had a padlock, or the police themselves must have been satisfied because there hasn’t been an issue.

Offline QCChevalier

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Re: Neville Bambers firearm certificate all in order in 1984...
« Reply #91 on: September 16, 2020, 09:01:PM »
Just before you leave QC, take a look at Paregeter’s court statement, now he often shoots with Neville, he goes for his rifle it’s not there, his aunt tells him it’s either in a cupboard in the study or in Rotherham den?  Could this be the cupboard with the padlock?

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4062.0;attach=29833

Yes, I'm aware of that, and as explained previously, what he is referring to is the converted den downstairs, photographed by D.C. Bird.

And yes, as explained previously, this is the cupboard I believed P.C. Dryland must be referring to.  If you look at Robert Boutflour's statements about this to Essex Police and COLP, you will see that he describes the same cupboard when it was in the scullery. 

And, as explained, the cupboard in the downstairs den did not and could not have had a padlock on it at the time of the incident, and this was also confirmed in David Boutflour's statement.

Thus, the issue - for me - in regard to P.C. Dryland is when the conversion of the scullery to the den took place. 
« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 09:04:PM by QCChevalier »

Offline QCChevalier

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Re: Neville Bambers firearm certificate all in order in 1984...
« Reply #92 on: September 16, 2020, 09:03:PM »
Well why aren’t they asking him this if there wasn’t, no one questions it so he must have been able to satisfy some sort of gun cupboard had a padlock, or the police themselves must have been satisfied because there hasn’t been an issue.

They're not asking anybody this because:

(i). Nevill is dead (Jeremy is not the responsible party in this regard);
(ii). it's not a priority issue;
(iii). at that point, they were probably investigating the issue internally, hence P.C. Dryland's statement, as he was probably asked for an explanation.

We're going round in circles.  My view is, let's leave it.  It's not crucial anyway.

Offline Real Justice

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Re: Neville Bambers firearm certificate all in order in 1984...
« Reply #93 on: September 16, 2020, 09:05:PM »
They're not asking anybody this because:

(i). Nevill is dead (Jeremy is not the responsible party in this regard);
(ii). it's not a priority issue;
(iii). at that point, they were probably investigating the issue internally, hence P.C. Dryland's statement, as he was probably asked for an explanation.

We're going round in circles.  My view is, let's leave it.  It's not crucial anyway.
Ok, I was just as curious as you that’s all.  It’s good to talk 👍

Offline Real Justice

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Re: Neville Bambers firearm certificate all in order in 1984...
« Reply #94 on: September 16, 2020, 10:14:PM »
Is this the lock Dryland was talking about?  The den probably wasn’t locked but the office was and this satisfied the certificate?

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=632.0;attach=2538

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=37259

Offline Real Justice

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Re: Neville Bambers firearm certificate all in order in 1984...
« Reply #95 on: September 17, 2020, 06:27:AM »
Is this the lock Dryland was talking about?  The den probably wasn’t locked but the office was and this satisfied the certificate?

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=632.0;attach=2538

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=37259
So, in affect his office was his Locked door and the den was where he stored them, the den didn’t need a lock because the office had the lock.  This changes two things, why the need to ever remove the silencer, because if the silencer didn’t fit in the den (although we’ve seen it does) it can be safely locked in the stronghold. Second He has to pretend to leave the rifle out for Sheila, because Neville who was described as meticulous with storing his weapons under lock and key, would have locked his door  up at night, thus preventing Sheila access.

 Also Tony used to take his bolt out of the rifle and I do believe broke his shotguns into three parts for safety reasons, This allowed or allowed Neville to let him store these in the washroom, Neville was so meticulous with his weapons he probably wouldn’t even give Tony a key to store his weapons in the office, so they in affect were no danger.

So the rabbit story Bamber invented takes out any questions of how Sheila got the rifle out of a normally locked stronghold.  I think the only part Dryland gets wrong or confused with, he calls it a padlocked cupboard.  Maybe that’s what Neville called his office a cupboard?

Here you will see How it’s referred  to it as a stronghold, a stronghold wouldn’t be a ball and catch.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=632.0;attach=2543


Pagereter saying how he leaves his guns secure.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4062.0;attach=29833
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 08:18:AM by Real Justice »

Offline Real Justice

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Re: Neville Bambers firearm certificate all in order in 1984...
« Reply #96 on: September 17, 2020, 08:04:AM »
So, in affect his office was his Stronghold and the den was where he stored them, the den didn’t need a lock because the office had the lock.  This changes two things, why the need to ever remove the silencer, because if the silencer didn’t fit in the den (although we’ve seen it does) it can be safely locked in the stronghold. Second He has to pretend to leave the rifle out for Sheila, because Neville who was described as meticulous with storing his weapons under lock and key, would have locked his stronghold up at night, thus preventing Sheila access.

 Also Tony used to take his bolt out of the rifle and I do believe broke his shotguns into three parts for safety reasons, This allowed or allowed Neville to let him store these in the washroom, Neville was so meticulous with his weapons he probably wouldn’t even give Tony a key to store his weapons in the stronghold, so they in affect were no danger.

So the rabbit story Bamber invented takes out any questions of how Sheila got the rifle out of a normally locked stronghold.  I think the only part Dryland gets wrong or confused with, he calls it a padlocked cupboard.  Maybe that’s what Neville called his stronghold a cupboard?

Here you will see How it’s referred  to it as a stronghold, a stronghold wouldn’t be a ball and catch.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=632.0;attach=2543


Pagereter saying how he leaves his guns secure.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4062.0;attach=29833
One could argue, why didn’t Bamber leave  the office/stronghold locked, he probably forgot to lock it when he returned the silencer, it adds weight to his story with Bewes and Myall that  Sheila has got access to an arsenal of weapons and it tries to portray things were Lax around the house regarding guns with the police, when in fact others who knew Neville knew this wasn’t the case.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 09:48:AM by Real Justice »

Offline Real Justice

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Re: Neville Bambers firearm certificate all in order in 1984...
« Reply #97 on: September 17, 2020, 08:12:AM »
One could argue, why didn’t Bamber leave  the office/stronghold locked, he probably forgot to lock it when he returned the silencer, it adds weight to his story with Bewes and Myhill  Sheila has got access to an arsenal of weapons and it tries to portray things were Lax around the house regarding guns with the police, when in fact others who knew Neville knew this wasn’t the case.
Whats always thrown me about this was the two different diagrams,

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4068

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=37259

It doesn’t show the partition very well between office and Hall , I always thought they were one and the back door had access to both when it clearly doesn’t. 

Then this picture shows the stair door inside the office, yet the bottom diagram shows the door in the Hall?

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4099
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 08:25:AM by Real Justice »

Offline Hartley.

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Re: Neville Bambers firearm certificate all in order in 1984...
« Reply #98 on: September 17, 2020, 08:22:AM »
Whats always thrown me about this was the two different diagrams,

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4068

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=37259

It doesn’t show the partition very well between office and Kitchen, I always thought they were one and the back door had access to both when it clearly doesn’t.

The office has a bit cut out of it which forms the utility area, so there is a partition at the central mullion of the window which returns behind the office door. i.e. the window is split between the two rooms.

Offline Hartley.

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Re: Neville Bambers firearm certificate all in order in 1984...
« Reply #99 on: September 17, 2020, 08:25:AM »
Yes, I'm aware of that, and as explained previously, what he is referring to is the converted den downstairs, photographed by D.C. Bird.

And yes, as explained previously, this is the cupboard I believed P.C. Dryland must be referring to.  If you look at Robert Boutflour's statements about this to Essex Police and COLP, you will see that he describes the same cupboard when it was in the scullery. 

And, as explained, the cupboard in the downstairs den did not and could not have had a padlock on it at the time of the incident, and this was also confirmed in David Boutflour's statement.

Thus, the issue - for me - in regard to P.C. Dryland is when the conversion of the scullery to the den took place.

I'm still not convinced it needed to be locked.

Didn't the police leave the various weapons out when the house was handed over to the relatives.

Offline Real Justice

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Re: Neville Bambers firearm certificate all in order in 1984...
« Reply #100 on: September 17, 2020, 08:28:AM »
The office has a bit cut out of it which forms the utility area, so there is a partition at the central mullion of the window which returns behind the office door. i.e. the window is split between the two rooms.
Ive modified my post Hartley, that might explain what’s throwing me?  Because the door leading to the stairs in the photo is clearly in the office or is it 🙈🙈🙈

Offline Hartley.

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Re: Neville Bambers firearm certificate all in order in 1984...
« Reply #101 on: September 17, 2020, 10:52:AM »
Whats always thrown me about this was the two different diagrams,

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4068

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=37259

It doesn’t show the partition very well between office and Hall , I always thought they were one and the back door had access to both when it clearly doesn’t. 

Then this picture shows the stair door inside the office, yet the bottom diagram shows the door in the Hall?

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4099

The room layout is a bit more like this.

The photograph is from the position notated V1.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 10:55:AM by Hartley. »

Offline Hartley.

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Re: Neville Bambers firearm certificate all in order in 1984...
« Reply #102 on: September 17, 2020, 11:01:AM »
This is a better floor plan.

You can also see the cupboard opposite the shower in the room titled 'Washroom'.

« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 11:02:AM by Hartley. »

Offline ngb1066

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Re: Neville Bambers firearm certificate all in order in 1984...
« Reply #103 on: September 17, 2020, 12:03:PM »
I think I will phone a friend on this one Hartley, NGB what were the rules regarding firearms in 1984?  Also do you think Neville used some other cupboard to pass as a locker?

The rules relating to safe storage of firearms and shotguns were far more vague than they are now.  They were also interpreted differently by each police force.  For example in 1984 I lived in London and the Metropolitan Police required me to store both shotguns and rifles in an approved steel cabinet firmly secured to the wall and floor.  At the same time my father who lived in Scotland had no requirement for any secure storage.  I suspect that Essex Police had a similar lax policy.  This changed in 1988.  I do not know how Neville stored his guns and rifle but it looks to me as if he was generally very relaxed about security, as farmers tended to be at that time.



« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 12:09:PM by ngb1066 »

Offline Real Justice

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Re: Neville Bambers firearm certificate all in order in 1984...
« Reply #104 on: September 17, 2020, 12:20:PM »
The rules relating to safe storage of firearms and shotguns were far more vague than they are now.  They were also interpreted differently by each police force.  For example in 1984 I lived in London and the Metropolitan Police required me to store both shotguns and rifles in an approved steel cabinet firmly secured to the wall and floor.  At the same time my father who lived in Scotland had no requirement for any secure storage.  I suspect that Essex Police had a similar lax policy.  This changed in 1988.  I do not know how Neville stored his guns and rifle but it looks to me as if he was generally very relaxed about security, as farmers tended to be at that time.
Thanks NGB, yes it’s all rather confusing, I think the fact Tony didn’t keep his in the Gun room just added a bit more weight that Neville was careful and the fact he took the bolt home as well. I personally think it was a matter of locking the office door that led to the den, was it a padlock or just a normal lock?  It’s the fact Dryland mentions Padlock.