Author Topic: Neville Bambers firearm certificate all in order in 1984...  (Read 6602 times)

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guest29835

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Re: Neville Bambers firearm certificate all in order in 1984...
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2020, 06:01:PM »
"I’m very sorry that my statement is wrong, my Lord, I was just basing it on memory and guesswork, and Hartley did say it would be alright..."

You're ignoring the statement.  If a police officer isn't sure, he says so, using commonly-recognised language that implies as much, or he doesn't give a statement at all.  If you say, or imply, that you are sure about something when you aren't, that's called lying.

I appreciate that witnesses will sometimes affect to be sure of things when in fact they're relying on memory, and that in itself is not necessarily lying, but this is a bureaucratic matter for which the police have records and pocketbooks.  Whether it's 10 records or 600 is neither nor there.

As usual, you're missing the point.

guest2181

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Re: Neville Bambers firearm certificate all in order in 1984...
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2020, 06:02:PM »
Could this be the place that is inspected Hartley and passed as the gun cupboard, like you say I bet their was only a certain type of gun needed to be under lock?  It seems strange that no one ever questions why the cupboard wasnt locked, or the rifle put under locked  even when interviewing Bamber?

I'm not sure. There is a cupboard to the left of the loo.

I'm not sure I recall reading where in the room the weapons were stored.

guest2181

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Re: Neville Bambers firearm certificate all in order in 1984...
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2020, 06:12:PM »
"I’m very sorry that my statement is wrong, my Lord, I was just basing it on memory and guesswork, and Hartley did say it would be alright..."

You're ignoring the statement.  If a police officer isn't sure, he says so, using commonly-recognised language that implies as much, or he doesn't give a statement at all.  If you say, or imply, that you are sure about something when you aren't, that's called lying.

I appreciate that witnesses will sometimes affect to be sure of things when in fact they're relying on memory, and that in itself is not necessarily lying, but this is a bureaucratic matter for which the police have records and pocketbooks.  Whether it's 10 records or 600 is neither nor there.

As usual, you're missing the point.

I don't think I am, I'm not sure that their even is a point, you do appear to be trying very hard to demonstrate that Neville was careless with firearms. And qualifying it with evidence concocted via assumption and interpretation, or at least filling in the gaps where no evidence exists.

Heck I might even agree with you that it certainly appears that Neville was careless, but I do not know what the rules were back then and from memory the only thing I have seen on the subject is in statements claiming him to be very careful with firearms.

Do you know what the rules were in 1984 for the storage of the various weapons?

guest7363

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Re: Neville Bambers firearm certificate all in order in 1984...
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2020, 06:17:PM »
I don't think I am, I'm not sure that their even is a point, you do appear to be trying very hard to demonstrate that Neville was careless with firearms. And qualifying it with evidence concocted via assumption and interpretation, or at least filling in the gaps where no evidence exists.

Heck I might even agree with you that it certainly appears that Neville was careless, but I do not know what the rules were back then and from memory the only thing I have seen on the subject is in statements claiming him to be very careful with firearms.

Do you know what the rules were in 1984 for the storage of the various weapons?
One things for sure, they were very Lax because no one gives a Toss?

guest7363

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Re: Neville Bambers firearm certificate all in order in 1984...
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2020, 06:20:PM »
I don't think I am, I'm not sure that their even is a point, you do appear to be trying very hard to demonstrate that Neville was careless with firearms. And qualifying it with evidence concocted via assumption and interpretation, or at least filling in the gaps where no evidence exists.

Heck I might even agree with you that it certainly appears that Neville was careless, but I do not know what the rules were back then and from memory the only thing I have seen on the subject is in statements claiming him to be very careful with firearms.

Do you know what the rules were in 1984 for the storage of the various weapons?
I think I will phone a friend on this one Hartley, NGB what were the rules regarding firearms in 1984?  Also do you think Neville used some other cupboard to pass as a locker?

guest29835

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Re: Neville Bambers firearm certificate all in order in 1984...
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2020, 06:25:PM »
I don't think I am, I'm not sure that their even is a point, you do appear to be trying very hard to demonstrate that Neville was careless with firearms. And qualifying it with evidence concocted via assumption and interpretation, or at least filling in the gaps where no evidence exists.

Heck I might even agree with you that it certainly appears that Neville was careless, but I do not know what the rules were back then and from memory the only thing I have seen on the subject is in statements claiming him to be very careful with firearms.

Do you know what the rules were in 1984 for the storage of the various weapons?

Culpability is not liability.  The evidence for Nevill's culpability is conclusive, surely? 

My understanding is that secure storage requirements were not made explicit at statutory level until the 1988 Act but were routinely imposed as a condition of firearms certificates by local police from the 1930s onwards.  P.C. Dryland explicitly refers in his statement to Nevill having padlocked his gun cupboard.

guest7363

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Re: Neville Bambers firearm certificate all in order in 1984...
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2020, 06:25:PM »
I'm not sure. There is a cupboard to the left of the loo.

I'm not sure I recall reading where in the room the weapons were stored.
What threw me was Hemmersley saying he didn’t know about this gun cupboard until several weeks later.  Yet he’s been in the house taking exhibits, he clearly states that the gun cupboard is next to the washroom.  Maybe this is where the confusion is.

guest29835

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Re: Neville Bambers firearm certificate all in order in 1984...
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2020, 06:28:PM »
What threw me was Hemmersley saying he didn’t know about this gun cupboard until several weeks later.  Yet he’s been in the house taking exhibits, he clearly states that the gun cupboard is next to the washroom.  Maybe this is where the confusion is.

The gun cupboard was always in the same place: that part of the scullery that was then converted to the den.  This is confirmed by Robert Boutflour's statements in 1985 and to COLP in 1991.

If Hammersley is confused, that will be because Anthony Pargeter's guns were kept in the downstairs washroom.  I was given to understand that the Pargeter .22 rifle had been removed prior to the massacre.

guest7363

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Re: Neville Bambers firearm certificate all in order in 1984...
« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2020, 06:28:PM »
Culpability is not liability.  The evidence for Nevill's culpability is conclusive, surely? 

My understanding is that secure storage requirements were not made explicit at statutory level until the 1988 Act but were routinely imposed as a condition of firearms certificates by local police from the 1930s onwards.  P.C. Dryland explicitly refers in his statement to Nevill having padlocked his gun cupboard.
Yes but QC, there does seem several different gun cup boards, but the main focus has always been the den because that’s where the silencer was found?  Agree that most of the guns where under there, but maybe Dryland was shown a different on for locked items?

guest29835

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Re: Neville Bambers firearm certificate all in order in 1984...
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2020, 06:30:PM »
Yes but QC, there does seem several different gun cup boards, but the main focus has always been the den because that’s where the silencer was found?  Agree that most of the guns where under there, but maybe Dryland was shown a different on for locked items?

No.  There was one gun cupboard only.  The confusion you refer to is understandable because there were guns all over the house, but Robert Boutflour confirms there was only one cupboard.  Also, bear in mind that P.C. Dryland when inspecting would not see the guns here, there and everywhere.  It follows that he must have been shown the gun cupboard.  The question in regard to his statement, to the extent it matters at all, is: Was the cupboard still in the scullery at that point, or had the conversion been completed? 

Offline Adam

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Re: Neville Bambers firearm certificate all in order in 1984...
« Reply #40 on: September 16, 2020, 06:30:PM »
142. He described his father as reasonably careful with guns and agreed that had Mr Bamber seen the rifle lying around in the kitchen he would have put it away in the gun cupboard. He agreed it would have taken him 30 seconds to have returned the gun to its cupboard and that he had been lazy.

143. The appellant confirmed he had not seen his sister fire a gun as an adult.

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Very surprising that Nevill or June didn't see the rifle & cartridge. And surprising that Bamber that Bamber did not take another 30 seconds to put it away.

If Nevill was putting weapons away with the bullets and cartridges seperate, that is being careful. Although better to lock the gun cupboard.

« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 06:32:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

guest7363

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Re: Neville Bambers firearm certificate all in order in 1984...
« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2020, 06:31:PM »
The gun cupboard was always in the same place: that part of the scullery that was then converted to the den.  This is confirmed by Robert Boutflour's statements in 1985 and to COLP in 1991.

If Hammersley is confused, that will be because Anthony Pargeter's guns were kept in the downstairs washroom.  I was given to understand that the Pargeter .22 rifle had been removed prior to the massacre.
Its Rivlin who is asking him if he was aware of this gun cupboard next to the washroom, it has to be a cupboard or some sort that was used to store guns next to the washroom?

guest29835

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Re: Neville Bambers firearm certificate all in order in 1984...
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2020, 06:32:PM »
142. He described his father as reasonably careful with guns and agreed that had Mr Bamber seen the rifle lying around in the kitchen he would have put it away in the gun cupboard. He agreed it would have taken him 30 seconds to have returned the gun to its cupboard and that he had been lazy.

143. The appellant confirmed he had not seen his sister fire a gun as an adult.

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Very surprising that Nevill or June didn't see the rifle. And surprising that Bamber that Bamber did not take another 30 seconds to put it away.

If Nevill was putting weapons away with the bullets and cartridges seperate, that is being careful. Although better to lock the gun cupboard.

The explanation for that will be that Jeremy did not leave the rifle in Nevill's sight.  It was left in the back hallway (sometimes inaccurately referred to as the back kitchen or even kitchen).

That said, I think we discussed previously Nevill's habit of leaving the key in the back door, and access to that door is via the hallway, so Nevill could have seen the rifle had he been observant.

Offline Adam

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Re: Neville Bambers firearm certificate all in order in 1984...
« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2020, 06:34:PM »
The explanation for that will be that Jeremy did not leave the rifle in Nevill's sight.  It was left in the back hallway (sometimes inaccurately referred to as the back kitchen or even kitchen).

That said, I think we discussed previously Nevill's habit of leaving the key in the back door, and access to that door is via the hallway, so Nevill could have seen the rifle had he been observant.

Sheila saw the rifle & cartridge alright.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

guest29835

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Re: Neville Bambers firearm certificate all in order in 1984...
« Reply #44 on: September 16, 2020, 06:34:PM »
Its Rivlin who is asking him if he was aware of this gun cupboard next to the washroom, it has to be a cupboard or some sort that was used to store guns next to the washroom?

Apologies, I can't recall that from Pargeter's evidence, but if it does say that then I can only assume that's an error on Rivlin's part - maybe an error of semantics.  There was no cupboard there.  I am led to believe that the Pargeter guns were just left out - albeit 'safed', with bolt and magazine removed, and ammunition stored elsewhere.