Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm

[susan]

Probably because they are circular weapons and at least one wound is small and rectangular .

Jan did you think the marks on Sheila's hand look like scratch and gauge marks they did to me  and others but some posters don't see them we are divided.

[Jan]

Jan did you think the marks on Sheila's hand look like scratch and gauge marks they did to me  and others but some posters don't see them we are divided.

Yes some of them I think do or someone could have gripped hard and made nail marks .


The blood drips on the arms seem the oddest though they sort of look like they happened at the same time but I can't think how they got there and then flowed in that direction .

[lookout]

There looks to be bruising on her upper arm,but I'm not sure. I think it rests on whether there were other marks on her body such as cuts if she'd been half-dressed.

[David1819]

Vanezis is expressing almost the opposite of my question.

I'm not sure what you are trying to find out.

Those streams of blood IMO are almost certainly caused by the 1st gunshot wound.

Vanezis has stated that the blood staining suggests she was sitting upwards while both shots were fired and she then fell backwards.

Prof Bernard Knight believes that due to the amount of blood down her arm/dress it was not a quick "Bang Bang" but some time gap between the shots.

According to a study of multiple gunshot suicide. The 1st wound would give Sheila 10-15 seconds before she passes out from blood loss.

So she could have sat up for several seconds before pushing the trigger again.

[Roch]

I'm not sure what you are trying to find out.

Those streams of blood IMO are almost certainly caused by the 1st gunshot wound.

Vanezis has stated that the blood staining suggests she was sitting upwards while both shots were fired and she then fell backwards.

Prof Bernard Knight believes that due to the amount of blood down her arm/dress it was not a quick "Bang Bang" but some time gap between the shots.

According to a study of multiple gunshot suicide. The 1st wound would give Sheila 10-15 seconds before she passes out from blood loss.

So she could have sat up for several seconds before pushing the trigger again.

See Post 39.

[lookout]

There looks to be bruising on her upper arm,but I'm not sure. I think it rests on whether there were other marks on her body such as cuts if she'd been half-dressed.

Again,studying what appear to be " bruises ",looking more closely it looks like a partial " hand or fingers " impression. Can anyone else see this on Sheila's upper arm ? If it is, then the position of the print could indicate that Sheila herself had somehow used her own right hand palm facing upwards to enable to do this,which in turn would have had that arm slightly turned to the left allowing a blood flow to follow in that direction.
Because of the darker colour of the " blood spots ",venous as opposed to arterial,would tell me that it came from a jugular injury,so gained from a sitting position as Sheila would at first have sat,crouched,right arm across her chest with fingers on her upper left arm as blood fell from her wound onto her arm,as in a folded arms position.
It's damned hard to describe on here,but it would account for the blood patterns on her arm.

I just picture this sad figure,sitting in a crouched position,arms folded,exhausted, and dying from her wounds, hence the gathering of blood in the neck area because her head would have been bent forward,but without the rifle on her body ! 
Sheila would not have lain down on her own as she'd been leaning against the bedside cabinet !     

[Jan]

I can see what you are saying about the blood flow under her arm Lookout .

I find it hard to imagine either scenario really

Jeremy crouching holding the gun in both hands and getting at the right angle to make it look like suicide but without her fighting back or moving or him disturbing anything in that small cluttered room ?

Or how she held that long rifle to kill herself . OK its proven she could do it with her foot but would she know that ? could she have done it without using her foot without the silencer on?

[lookout]

I can see what you are saying about the blood flow under her arm Lookout .

I find it hard to imagine either scenario really

Jeremy crouching holding the gun in both hands and getting at the right angle to make it look like suicide but without her fighting back or moving or him disturbing anything in that small cluttered room ?

Or how she held that long rifle to kill herself . OK its proven she could do it with her foot but would she know that ? could she have done it without using her foot without the silencer on?

Firstly,there was no doubt in my mind that there were struggles going on between the three adults,mum,dad and Sheila. All three had fingernail gouges on them,obviously by trying to retrieve the rifle from Sheila. IF Jeremy had been there too,he'd have had them,no mistaking that as he'd have been hard-pushed against the manic strength of his sister.

Sheila would have found a way of shooting herself,but certainly not with her toe on the trigger. The girl had a long reach anyway being 5.8 so her arms length would have been in keeping/proportion with her overall body size.

I believe she was in a sitting position when this was" accomplished",as the bullet went upwards. Her head then bent which would have stemmed the flow of blood,and the pressure would also have stopped due to vascular shock and that's why the blood had pooled in the crook of her neck. Because she was against the cabinet,she'd have maintained that sitting position until such times as she'd been placed where we see her.

Those darker spots on her arm,as I've said,would have dropped from the neck wound ( jugular ) while in the sitting position. It's the only way they'd have got there otherwise. If she'd been lying down when she shot herself,those spots wouldn't have been there.

Nobody but herself could have shot her in that position. With two shots,you can NEVER make it look like suicide------Jeremy would have known that as it's common sense,a child would realise it. The fact that the rifle was semi-automatic and comparatively new would make it sensitive to a second firing to those who weren't accustomed to using them and because the shots to her neck were pretty close together,it would make this possible.

No way do I believe that Jeremy had any part in this,nor did he know or even realise it could happen.

[maggie]

There looks to be bruising on her upper arm,but I'm not sure. I think it rests on whether there were other marks on her body such as cuts if she'd been half-dressed.

I can see bruising higher up her arm as though the arm has been grabbed and pulled or scraped as well as a few gouge marks that have bled, I think my pics on this  'dyslexic' tablet are really clear, not much use otherwise!

[lookout]

I can see bruising higher up her arm as though the arm has been grabbed and pulled or scraped as well as a few gouge marks that have bled, I think my pics on this 'dyslexic' tablet are really clear, not much use otherwise!

Thank goodness for that. I was hoping I wasn't seeing things Those pics tell a story on their own,they're brilliant thanks to Roch.

[maggie]

I can see what you are saying about the blood flow under her arm Lookout .

I find it hard to imagine either scenario really

Jeremy crouching holding the gun in both hands and getting at the right angle to make it look like suicide but without her fighting back or moving or him disturbing anything in that small cluttered room ?

Or how she held that long rifle to kill herself . OK its proven she could do it with her foot but would she know that ? could she have done it without using her foot without the silencer on?

I find the blood under her arm hard to fathom. To me it has always looked as though she lay on her right side at some point, as if in the recovery position but I don't accept Mike's theory that the police shot her.

[lookout]

Even on the pics,the running blood veers to the right. Then of course it would if she's been moved from the sitting position she was in her head would have" lolled" to one side during the handling of her to a flat position as we see in the pics.
However,to enable her to have been put into a lying position,Sheila must have been malleable enough to do so,without her having any RM. So a more or less immediate death before anyone had entered the farmhouse.

[lookout]

I have a feeling that Scott Lomax,in his book,had stated that the rifle had been about 18" away from Sheila when it was found,which would be positioned between both Sheila and June.

Why so precise ? Why not 2' away ? 

[Jan]

I have a feeling that Scott Lomax,in his book,had stated that the rifle had been about 18" away from Sheila when it was found,which would be positioned between both Sheila and June.

Why so precise ? Why not 2' away ?

I cant see that to be honest - no blood on the bed in that position ?

[lookout]

I cant see that to be honest - no blood on the bed in that position ?

On the floor.