Author Topic: Timed references, anomaly - an adjustment may be necessary in pursuit of Accurac  (Read 17676 times)

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Offline Jane

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It seems to me we have a surfeit of floundering here. Nevill MAY have made two phone calls to the police. Nevill MAY have spoken with someone not previously mentioned. All very iffy. We have minutes now broken down into 6 decanates, presumably to give Jeremy more time. I wonder what a potential COA would make of it?

Offline Caroline

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It seems to me we have a surfeit of floundering here. Nevill MAY have made two phone calls to the police. Nevill MAY have spoken with someone not previously mentioned. All very iffy. We have minutes now broken down into 6 decanates, presumably to give Jeremy more time. I wonder what a potential COA would make of it?

This ....  ::)
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Offline Jane

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Offline Roch

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Not floundering.  Just trying to post - but limited time and attention due to work. These things are  not simple. The calls are a very contentious issue.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 01:28:PM by Roch »

Offline Jane

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Not floundering.  Just trying to post - but limited time and attention due to work. These things are  not simple. The calls are a very contentious issue.

Roch, I meant, in general. I didn't mean you in particular.

PS The calls remain contention free for those of us who don't believe Nevill made any :)

guest7363

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Pc West stated clearly that he had a conversation with Jeremy before telling him to hold,which is consistent with Jeremy's description of what happened. Thus Pc West  had already been told the basic information that he passed on to Bonnett while Jeremy was on hold. This means that Jeremy's call to Pc West preceded Pc West's call to Bonnett by probably at least a minute. If Jeremy had called Pc West considerably earlier than 03:36, as some now claim, that time would have been 03:25 or 03:24, rather than 03:26, which wouldn't have left PC West sufficient time to take Jeremy's details, his reason for calling, etc., and call HQ using the exchange line, without the time being 03:27 when Bonnett wanted to enter it in his log. There is a slight possibility that Jeremy happened to call Pc West at only just after 03:26 and Pc West was then able to receive the details from Jeremy, put Jeremy on hold, dial the number for the police HQ and speak to Bonnett all within less than about a minute. A little extra time for this could have been available if the clock Pc West used was slightly fast and/or the clock that Bonnett used was slightly slow.

However, Pc West had been told that Sheila was aged about 27, whereas Bonnett noted Sheila's age as 26. Also, Pc West said that he asked Bonnett which police station covered the area where WHF is, but Bonnett makes no mention of this in his statements.

Neither Pc West nor Bonnett make any mention of having any difficulty in contacting one of the officers at Witham, yet it was not until 03:35 that Bonnett logged the departure of CA7.
Hi Reader, how I understood it, it was by  Using a radio link PC West contacted Malcolm Bonnet at the Chelmsford H/Q Information Room. PC West then spoke to the appellant again, who complained at the time the officer was taking too long?

Offline Adam

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Hi Reader, how I understood it, it was by  Using a radio link PC West contacted Malcolm Bonnet at the Chelmsford H/Q Information Room. PC West then spoke to the appellant again, who complained at the time the officer was taking too long?

That sounds right.

Radio link. Did Bonnett not have a phone ?
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Offline lebaleb

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That sounds right.

Radio link. Did Bonnett not have a phone ?

By radio Bonnett could be contacted wherever he was. No mobiles in those days.

Offline Caroline

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Roch, I meant, in general. I didn't mean you in particular.

PS The calls remain contention free for those of us who don't believe Nevill made any :)

No contention here!  ;D ;D
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Offline Jane

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Offline Reader

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Using a radio link PC West contacted Malcolm Bonnet at the Chelmsford H/Q Information Room. PC West then spoke to the appellant again, who complained at the time the officer was taking too long?
In his statement dated 13/09/1985, Pc West gave "I contacted Headquarters Information Room but cannot remember if it was by internal telephone or via the radio channel."

On the communications form that Bonnett used, there is a preprinted box with four choices: 999, Exchange Line, Radio, and Private Wire. Bonnett circled "Exchange Line".

According to the same statement, Pc West then "spoke with, I think, Pc Saxby, at Witham Police Station via the personal radio link between Chelmsford Police Station and Witham Police Station." I consider that wording strange, as I wouldn't expect a radio link between two police stations to be described as personal.

It seems that Bonnett simultaneously contacted Pc Saxby by telephone. Do you want more details?

Offline Roch

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According to the same statement, Pc West then "spoke with, I think, Pc Saxby, at Witham Police Station via the personal radio link between Chelmsford Police Station and Witham Police Station." I consider that wording strange, as I wouldn't expect a radio link between two police stations to be described as personal.

It was a personal radio link distinct from HQIR radio.   Bonnett would therefore not have heard the conversation between West and Saxby.  HQIR radio was force-wide across Essex.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 04:14:PM by Roch »

Offline mike tesko

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Pc West stated clearly that he had a conversation with Jeremy before telling him to hold,which is consistent with Jeremy's description of what happened. Thus Pc West  had already been told the basic information that he passed on to Bonnett while Jeremy was on hold. This means that Jeremy's call to Pc West preceded Pc West's call to Bonnett by probably at least a minute. If Yes, at which stage Malcom Bonnett updated his 3.26am 'Communcations log' upon which Bonnett had already recorded Neville Bambers caller information! This is verified by inclusion 'son of Mr Bamber contacted CD' two thirds down the log! The exchange between Jeremy and 'PC West being mentioned by PC West when he spoke to Bonnett, confirming that which Bonnett had already recorded from Neville Bamber in his 3.26am, log! Jeremy had called Pc West considerably earlier than 03:36, as some now claim, There is no evidence that Jeremy called Chelmsford police any time at all before 3.36am, 'PC West' was at pains during the trial to make out a case for him receiving Jeremy's call at any other time, than the 3.36am! What he did say was that he wasn't sure which of the 'times' (3.36am / 3.26am), implying that Bonnetts claim that Jeremy had called PC West at 3.26am, was wrong! that time would have been 03:25 or 03:24, rather than 03:26, which wouldn't have left PC West sufficient time to take Jeremy's details, his reason for calling, etc., and call HQ using the exchange line, without the time being 03:27 when Bonnett wanted to enter it in his log. There is no evidence that Jeremy's call to Chelmsford police station was any sooner than 3.36am! There is a slight possibility that Jeremy happened to call Pc West at only just after 03:26 There is no evidence of this at all... and Pc West was then able to receive the details from Jeremy, put Jeremy on hold, dial the number for the police HQ and speak to Bonnett all within less than about a minute. speculation, only! A little extra time for this could have been available if the clock Pc West used was slightly fast and/or the clock that Bonnett used was slightly slow. the prosecutions case did not rely upon any of this!

However, Pc West had been told that Sheila was aged about 27, whereas Bonnett noted Sheila's age as 26. Also, Pc West said that he asked Bonnett which police station covered the area where WHF is, but Bonnett makes no mention of this in his statements.

Neither Pc West nor Bonnett make any mention of having any difficulty in contacting one of the officers at Witham, yet it was not until 03:35 that Bonnett logged the departure of CA7.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 04:36:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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If the prosecution and it's witnesses had not set out to try and muddy the waters, and not to disclose the contents of Bonnetts 3.26am log, and 'PC West's 3.36am, log, alongside one another, we would not be here now trying to put right the terrible wrong done to Jeremy Bamber in 'he' not receiving a fair trial!  All these issues, and features which we are now debating would have been 'aired in the presence of the jury', and it would have been for 'the jury to decide' what the truth in the matter was! To me, it's a straight forward case of 'the prosecuting authorities deliberately withholding material and evidence which was capable of supporting Jeremy's Bambers innocence'! It's too late now for the prosecution and any of its supporters in this particular case, to be able to now say, 'oh well, the material and the evidence have since been disclosed so there is no problem! Of course there is a problem, it was for the jury to decide whether or not, Neville Bamber did call police after all, just like the prosecution said he would have done! He did, and the prosecution 'hid the evidence' so that they could lead with the argument that if his daughter had gone berserk with one of his guns, Neville Bamber would have phoned the police! Well, he did phone the police! It was not for the prosecution to 'make a decision' to withhold evidence which contradicted it's own case, or for them to 'decide' the call which Neville made, could have been reference to Jeremy's own call! That decision was the 'province of the jury'! They were 'dishonestly prevented' from relying upon the contents of the 3.26am and the 3.36am logs, to help them investigate, consider, accept, or reject the claim that 'Neville had phoned police', after all!

If Neville phoned police, how much more likely that Neville had called Jeremy? How much more likely, that Neville's daughter really had gone berserk! And so had hold of one of Neville's guns?  How much more likely that what Jeremy eventually told PC West what he told him, that this confirmed what Neville had also told the police, or in other words - a circle of truth!!!
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 05:01:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Reader

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Obviously, anything raised as a possibility is speculation. As you say, "the prosecution's case did not rely upon any of this" but instead relied on the jury not speculating in this way.