Author Topic: Timed references, anomaly - an adjustment may be necessary in pursuit of Accurac  (Read 17677 times)

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Offline mike tesko

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I agree, as I think "2 minutes at the outside" was misrecorded in his interview transcript as "10 minutes at the outside" (as they would sound similar). I don't think it is stated anywhere that Jeremy has since said it took 2 minutes at most.

Jeremy Bamber didn't take 10 minutes to look up the telephone number to Chelmsford police station , because he was placed on hold for a period of between 3 to 5 minutes. This being true, it possibly took Jeremy 5 minutes to look for the number, but he might have been getting himself dressed as well!
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Reader

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I've no idea how you've come to this Reader but you've made a mistake. The police asked Jeremy how long it took, they suggested 10 minutes he replied half that. Half that being 5 minutes. You need to go back to the police interviews.
You seem to be referring to a different part of the interviews. See below, where highlighted.

Offline Reader

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Jeremy Bamber didn't take 10 minutes to look up the telephone number to Chelmsford police station , because he was placed on hold for a period of between 3 to 5 minutes.
I've reposted the relevant part of the interview above. As you can see, Jeremy's words are recorded as "Ten minutes at the outside." The period that he was on hold is presumably not intended to be part of that period, as he was asked how long he took to look up the number and get through, not how long he took to look up the number, make the call and complete the call.

It's possible that the police thought he said "ten minutes" rather than "two minutes" as their next question includes the wording "another ten minutes". However, "another" could have been intended to mean "further". In any case, it's factually correct that "Two minutes" and "Ten minutes" can sound very similar, and it's factually correct that two minutes is ample time for looking up a police number and then getting through to the police on that number. Unless Jeremy can now remember this part of the interview and clarify his reply, we can't definitively resolve this matter.

Offline mike tesko

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Jeremy's 3.36am call to PC West at 3.36am, extended by 10 minutes, produces a time of 3.46am that he left his cottage, to go to  the event at whf! (3.45am to 3.47am)! The way I see it, this potentially provided a 2 minute window of opportunity for the occupants of CA07 to overtake Jeremy on the 'Tollesbury Road' en route to the event!
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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I've reposted the relevant part of the interview above. As you can see, Jeremy's words are recorded as "Ten minutes at the outside." The period that he was on hold is presumably not intended to be part of that period, as he was asked how long he took to look up the number and get through, not how long he took to look up the number, make the call and complete the call.

It's possible that the police thought he said "ten minutes" rather than "two minutes" as their next question includes the wording "another ten minutes". However, "another" could have been intended to mean "further". In any case, it's factually correct that "Two minutes" and "Ten minutes" can sound very similar, and it's factually correct that two minutes is ample time for looking up a police number and then getting through to the police on that number. Unless Jeremy can now remember this part of the interview and clarify his reply, we can't definitively resolve this matter.

In conversations I had with Jeremy, the overall length of his call to Chelmsford lasted 10/11 minutes, of which 5 of these minutes he was placed on hold!
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Additionally, he told me that it was about 10 minutes after Neville contacted him, that he had called Chelmsford police station (3.36am) a period in which he had tried to call Neville back twice, phoned Witham police station, called Julie, before he searched for Chelmsford police station telephone number! We then have the 10 minute period of Jeremy's call to Chelmsford police station (3.36am) which ends at around 3.46am, a 20/21 minute overall period between 3.25am, and 3.46am!
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Steve_uk

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Additionally, he told me that it was about 10 minutes after Neville contacted him, that he had called Chelmsford police station (3.36am) a period in which he had tried to call Neville back twice, phoned Witham police station, called Julie, before he searched for Chelmsford police station telephone number! We then have the 10 minute period of Jeremy's call to Chelmsford police station (3.36am) which ends at around 3.46am, a 20/21 minute overall period between 3.25am, and 3.46am!
It seems from the above statement that he did telephone Julie before he called Police, which does seem strange. Of course if he never received a call from Nevill at all the order of Jeremy's subsequent calls matters not one jot, as he knew that all within were dead.

Offline Reader

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Jeremy's 3.36am call to PC West at 3.36am, extended by 10 minutes, . . .
We don't know the length of the call. It could have lasted only 6 minutes.

In conversations I had with Jeremy, the overall length of his call to Chelmsford lasted 10/11 minutes, of which 5 of these minutes he was placed on hold!
If Jeremy was on hold for 3 to 4 minutes, that could have seemed longer to Jeremy, given his anxiety at the time and the fact that Pc West tended to speak slowly (which would tend to make an anxious listener impatient), so we can't assume that 10 to 11 minutes is an accurate estimate of the duration of the call. Pc West's log and evidence at trial suggests that the call had ended and Pc West had spoken to both Insp. Targrass and the operator before he entered 03:42 in his log.

Offline Reader

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Additionally, he told me that it was about 10 minutes after Neville contacted him, that he had called Chelmsford police station
That estimate shouldn't be assumed to be particularly accurate, given that Jeremy did several things during that interval. The actual duration could easily have been 12 or 13 minutes, which would comfortably allow his dad's call to him to have occurred before 3:25am. That would be consistent with your theory that Nevill was calling the police when Jeremy tried to return his call.

Offline mike tesko

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It seems from the above statement that he did telephone Julie before he called Police, which does seem strange. Of course if he never received a call from Nevill at all the order of Jeremy's subsequent calls matters not one jot, as he knew that all within were dead.

Jeremy did call Julie before he made his answered call to Chelmsford police station. But he had made an unanswered call to Witham police station before calling her!
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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We don't know the length of the call. It could have lasted only 6 minutes.

Jeremy told me his answered call to Chelmsford police station lasted 10/11 minutes from start to finsh, including a 5 minute period when he was placed on hold!
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

guest7363

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Jeremy did call Julie before he made his answered call to Chelmsford police station. But he had made an unanswered call to Witham police station before calling her!
Did Jeremy tell you about this call to Witham?

Offline mike tesko

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If Jeremy was on hold for 3 to 4 minutes, that could have seemed longer to Jeremy, given his anxiety at the time and the fact that Pc West tended to speak slowly (which would tend to make an anxious listener impatient), so we can't assume that 10 to 11 minutes is an accurate estimate of the duration of the call. Pc West's log and evidence at trial suggests that the call had ended and Pc West had spoken to both Insp. Targrass and the operator before he entered 03:42 in his log.
Jeremy said to me 10/11 minutes duration of call to Chelmsford, of course, that was his estimation, it could have been longer, it could have been shorter in real time. He told me he was placed on hold at the beginning of his call for a period of 5 minutes. Again, this could have been slightly longer, or slightly shorter! According to Malcolm Bonnetts log, the operator did not get back to police until 3.56am to say that the phone at the farmhouse was off its hook! Either that or it was 3.56am when 'PC West' told Bonnett that the phone at the farm was off its hook! There is no evidence to prove that the sequence with which Jeremy says the events occurred (to me) did not happen in that sequence. On the flip side, there will be those people who will try to argue that there is no evidence to prove that the sequenced events as told to me by Jeremy happenned like he says they did! In response, I would say, it was not for Jeremy to have to prove anything! It was for the prosecution to prove his account was a dishonest one! In light of the fact that the contents of Malcolm Bonnetts Communication log was not made available to Rivlin QC during the trial, proved to be a very telling feature, since had it been disclosed it seems likely that Rivlin QC  would have been able to persuade the jury that Neville Bamber himself had called the police, and that (he) his call to police had also not been via a '999' call!!!
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 12:02:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Did Jeremy tell you about this call to Witham?

Yes, he did - we thrashed out the sequence of events (as remembered by him) during that 4 hour period I spent in his cell on Christmas day over Christmas Dinner (1989)! He said that after trying unsuccessfully to phone Neville back, that he had then tried to contact the police at Witham police station. He said the phone had been ringing at the Witham end, but that no-one answered, he left it ringing for between one and two minutes, then he rung off. After he rung off, he then immediately phoned Julie, to tell her, 'there's something wrong at home', and she told him, 'to go back to bed'! After speaking to Julie, he started to get dressed, and looked for Chelmsford police station telephone number. Found it, and then he had rang the police at Chelmsford!
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 12:14:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

guest7363

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Yes, he did - we thrashed out the sequence of events (as remembered by him) during that 4 hour period I spent in his cell on Christmas day over Christmas Dinner (1989)! He said that after trying unsuccessfully to phone Neville back, that he had then tried to contact the police at Witham police station. He said the phone had been ringing at the Witham, but that no-one answered, he left it ringing for between one and two minutes, then he rung off. After he rung off, he then immediately phoned Julie, to tell her, 'there's something wrong at home', and she told him, 'to go back to bed'! After speaking to Julie, he started to get dressed, and looked for Chelmsford police station telephone number. Found it, and then he had rang the police at Chelmsford!
Thanks Mike, so Bews was telling the truth.