Author Topic: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?  (Read 10711 times)

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Offline petey

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #195 on: November 06, 2019, 12:41:PM »
The public have a right to know who these individuals are as in most of these type of cases the criminal/s go on to reoffend after they've served their sentence.
This is an horrific case.

The public have no right to know who these individuals are, if the judge decides that in his professional position, they should remain anonymous.

You are massively and incorrectly generalising that ‘in most of these cases the criminals go on to reoffend.’ This is simply not true.

Recidivism is affected by numerous factors; maturity and progression to adulthood, being one of these.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #196 on: November 06, 2019, 05:20:PM »
The public have no right to know who these individuals are, if the judge decides that in his professional position, they should remain anonymous.

You are massively and incorrectly generalising that ‘in most of these cases the criminals go on to reoffend.’ This is simply not true.

Recidivism is affected by numerous factors; maturity and progression to adulthood, being one of these.
The problem is petey that judges have been far from consistent over the years, which does risk bringing the legal profession into disrepute.

Offline petey

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #197 on: November 06, 2019, 11:16:PM »
The problem is petey that judges have been far from consistent over the years, which does risk bringing the legal profession into disrepute.

Each case is treated individually on its merits, but if you start discussing judges consistency over the years, that opens up another whole can of worms. Judges will make a professional decision on a case by case basis.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #198 on: November 07, 2019, 08:06:PM »
Each case is treated individually on its merits, but if you start discussing judges consistency over the years, that opens up another whole can of worms. Judges will make a professional decision on a case by case basis.
I'm sure that's the legal answer and I'd like to think it's true, though I suspect that there is pressure on judges from politicians via newspaper proprietors to provide them with a story.

The legal aspect: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47721177

How Norway dealt with one case: https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2010/mar/20/norway-town-forgave-child-killers

I would only say that the lives of the perpetrators of such heinous crimes lie in ruins as soon as they are named and shamed. I'm not advocating they go free-far from it, but I think 15 years for a 10-year-old is sufficient, double the term the Bulger killers actually served.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 08:06:PM by Steve_uk »

Offline petey

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #199 on: November 08, 2019, 12:14:AM »
I'm sure that's the legal answer and I'd like to think it's true, though I suspect that there is pressure on judges from politicians via newspaper proprietors to provide them with a story.

The legal aspect: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47721177

How Norway dealt with one case: https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2010/mar/20/norway-town-forgave-child-killers

I would only say that the lives of the perpetrators of such heinous crimes lie in ruins as soon as they are named and shamed. I'm not advocating they go free-far from it, but I think 15 years for a 10-year-old is sufficient, double the term the Bulger killers actually served.

Interesting given the backlash against the killers of James Bulger being released before they served time in an adult prison.

Jon Venables clearly was not fully rehabilitated as he went on to commit further appalling crimes, resulting in his recall to prison on more than one occasion.

On the other hand Robert Thompson (obviously I have not seen all the available evidence) has to a certain extent had a successful period of rehabilitation in that he has been in no further criminal trouble since his release 18 years ago. Whisper it very quietly but can he be seen as an example of a success of the criminal justice system. (Obviously I’m not defending the horrific murder of James Bulger and the heinous injuries they inflicted on his body)

Offline Jane

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #200 on: November 08, 2019, 03:04:PM »
Interesting given the backlash against the killers of James Bulger being released before they served time in an adult prison.

Jon Venables clearly was not fully rehabilitated as he went on to commit further appalling crimes, resulting in his recall to prison on more than one occasion.

On the other hand Robert Thompson (obviously I have not seen all the available evidence) has to a certain extent had a successful period of rehabilitation in that he has been in no further criminal trouble since his release 18 years ago. Whisper it very quietly but can he be seen as an example of a success of the criminal justice system. (Obviously I’m not defending the horrific murder of James Bulger and the heinous injuries they inflicted on his body)

I think this is something of a dilemma. It's certainly something I agonize over. I emphatically believe children should be given ONE second chance, but it doesn't mean they shouldn't receive some form of punishment for the crimes they commit. I understand that Norway has a completely different mindset regarding dealing with child crime but such requires the cooperation of the entire nation. I don't believe it would work here. Having said that, I'm not entirely certain of what would, but I think it could begin with education, as in educating adults in parenting.
 It's a generalization, but it seems to me that parents are often guilty of instructing children to do as they say, whilst demonstrating a quite different code of behaviour. It may help if adults were taught to say "NO" with conviction and reinforce it. Parents have no right to expect good and disciplined behaviours from children when all they see demonstrated is poor and undisciplined behaviours. Mixed messages cause confusion.
It's not a cure all. It's not a quick fix but everything must have a beginning. Children don't understand consequences. Especially so if they've never been taught that for every action there is a consequence. They don't come into the world with a handbook of instructions. WE, as parents, owe it to them to teach them BEFORE they reach school age, NOT blame teachers for being unable to do the job which should have been done at home. 

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #201 on: November 08, 2019, 08:08:PM »
Forgive me but I still don't see the rationale for some murderers who happen to be children not to be named by judges and others who are deemed fair game. Will Cornick's naming will serve as a deterrent to other like-minded youths-don't make me laugh. This type of teenager is looking for a fight most nights whilst enjoying the case of lager bought by their dad at the local Asda. And why were the Angela Wrightson killers not made an example of to other teenage girls: maybe because the victim was an alcoholic from Hartlepool, yet at trial the judge described the girls as "vulnerable", after they had subjected their victim to a five-hour torture. Why did the Edlington boys get anonymity but the Bulger killers not-was it because the former were in care at the time of the attacks and the judge didn't wish to antagonize Social Services? 

I must read up on the Children and Young Persons Act 1933: maybe the truth lies therein.                                                                                                                                     

Offline lookout

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #202 on: November 09, 2019, 01:49:PM »
Mary Bell was named back in 1968 when she was 10/11 for the heinous crime of murdering two toddlers in much the same way that Jamie Bulger was murdered.

Offline lookout

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #203 on: November 09, 2019, 01:51:PM »
I'm sure I'd like to know in case they eventually lived in the same street, or worse, next door !

Offline Jane

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #204 on: November 09, 2019, 02:19:PM »
Mary Bell was named back in 1968 when she was 10/11 for the heinous crime of murdering two toddlers in much the same way that Jamie Bulger was murdered.


Since when I believe her name and identity have been changed. I've heard she's now married with children. I wonder how that feels. She can't magically unhappen what she did. If she hasn't managed to forgive the child she was back then, I imagine there may be time when the guilt is overwhelming.

Offline lookout

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #205 on: November 09, 2019, 09:40:PM »
My argument is that because of the anonymity of criminals that it must happen that somewhere along the line they could be living next door to you. Many years could pass when suddenly you're going to find out somehow just by chance.

 You're no longer going to think of them as having been good neighbours  as they very well could have been-------all you're going to think about is the crime they've committed many years previously which will not only cloud the fact that they've been decent neighbours but you yourself by a very fact of nature  that will change your mind about them and depending on your own personal thoughts about the type of crime they committed, you'll end up with a feeling of guilt for the rest of your life for having befriended someone who'd committed the most heinous of crimes.

Personally, I couldn't live with that. This is why I'd rather know and put a stop to the anonymity for the sake of the general public who shouldn't be hoodwinked in this way. 

 

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #206 on: November 09, 2019, 11:28:PM »
Forgive me but I still don't see the rationale for some murderers who happen to be children not to be named by judges and others who are deemed fair game. Will Cornick's naming will serve as a deterrent to other like-minded youths-don't make me laugh. This type of teenager is looking for a fight most nights whilst enjoying the case of lager bought by their dad at the local Asda. And why were the Angela Wrightson killers not made an example of to other teenage girls: maybe because the victim was an alcoholic from Hartlepool, yet at trial the judge described the girls as "vulnerable", after they had subjected their victim to a five-hour torture. Why did the Edlington boys get anonymity but the Bulger killers not-was it because the former were in care at the time of the attacks and the judge didn't wish to antagonize Social Services? 

I must read up on the Children and Young Persons Act 1933: maybe the truth lies therein.                                                                                                                                     
Slip ngb1066 a hundred quid and he will give you his unbiased opinion on the above (Paypal only accepted).

Offline Jane

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #207 on: November 10, 2019, 09:09:AM »
My argument is that because of the anonymity of criminals that it must happen that somewhere along the line they could be living next door to you. Many years could pass when suddenly you're going to find out somehow just by chance.

 You're no longer going to think of them as having been good neighbours  as they very well could have been-------all you're going to think about is the crime they've committed many years previously which will not only cloud the fact that they've been decent neighbours but you yourself by a very fact of nature  that will change your mind about them and depending on your own personal thoughts about the type of crime they committed, you'll end up with a feeling of guilt for the rest of your life for having befriended someone who'd committed the most heinous of crimes.

Personally, I couldn't live with that. This is why I'd rather know and put a stop to the anonymity for the sake of the general public who shouldn't be hoodwinked in this way.


I HOPE I've misread this, but it sounds very much like you're saying that those who've committed "the most heinous of crimes" should not be granted anonymity because you couldn't live with the guilt you'd feel if you befriended them? I concur that to find out that a lovely, kind neighbour, who may have become a friend, had once been responsible for something unspeakable, would be an horrendous shock, but I HOPE, before I passed judgement, I'd base any conclusion on how they'd lived their life since I'd known them. As for feeling guilt? What they'd done, prior to coming into my life, has nothing to do with me, so unless they chose to tell me, it would be none of my concern. Any guilt I felt might come from knowing their secret.

Offline lookout

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #208 on: November 10, 2019, 02:53:PM »

I HOPE I've misread this, but it sounds very much like you're saying that those who've committed "the most heinous of crimes" should not be granted anonymity because you couldn't live with the guilt you'd feel if you befriended them? I concur that to find out that a lovely, kind neighbour, who may have become a friend, had once been responsible for something unspeakable, would be an horrendous shock, but I HOPE, before I passed judgement, I'd base any conclusion on how they'd lived their life since I'd known them. As for feeling guilt? What they'd done, prior to coming into my life, has nothing to do with me, so unless they chose to tell me, it would be none of my concern. Any guilt I felt might come from knowing their secret.





Wouldn't your imagination run amok at having eventually known of their crime, them being your neighbours, albeit decent and actually on occasion perhaps being entrusted with your children ? This is where the guilt would come in although in your mind, if you were human enough you'd still ask yourself " what if " . It's human nature to expect the worst and it definitely would prey on your mind for a long time to come. It would always be there.

Unless you've had any involvement with a murderer you wouldn't understand.