Author Topic: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?  (Read 2653 times)

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Online Steve_uk

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Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« on: December 29, 2016, 06:19:PM »
This recommendation follows a report by Charles Taylor from the National College of Teaching, commissioned by former Education Secretary Michael Gove. Currently any child appearing in a youth court is granted anonymity, but in the Crown Court Social Services must apply for a reporting restriction and reapply when the offender reaches 18 years of age.

Advocates of the policy say that anonymity would give the offenders a chance to reintegrate into society and make them less likely to reoffend. Those against say that the public has a right to know, and that naming and shaming acts as a deterrent to other would-be miscreants.

An example of complete anonymity is the Erdlington Two, brothers who tortured two other boys when they were ten and almost killed them. The offenders are now 18 and 19 and have been granted lifelong anonymity. However Will Cornick, who was 15 when he stabbed to death teacher Ann Maguire in 2014 was named in the Press after the judge lifted reporting restrictions in the public interest.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 07:49:PM by Steve_uk »

Offline lookout

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2016, 10:43:PM »
No. Let it be part of the punishment. A child criminal usually grows up to be an adult one,so let their names be made public in order to trace them in their adult lives should the need arise.

Online Steve_uk

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2016, 10:57:PM »
No. Let it be part of the punishment. A child criminal usually grows up to be an adult one,so let their names be made public in order to trace them in their adult lives should the need arise.
That may be true lookout, but it's hard enough to get a job today without the stigma of an infamous crime hanging round your neck. It's really an employer's market. I suppose they could be given new identities like Jon Venables and Robert Thompson.

Offline lookout

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2016, 10:34:AM »
That may be true lookout, but it's hard enough to get a job today without the stigma of an infamous crime hanging round your neck. It's really an employer's market. I suppose they could be given new identities like Jon Venables and Robert Thompson.




Steve,it's an utter insult to the victims that criminals are given new identities then all the fuss and bother of also being given accommodation in different areas. It's this sort of sheer nonsense that is helping toward the draining of resources from the needs of genuine and innocent people.
An absolute waste.There are very few hardened criminals,including murderers who reform anyway,so as far as employing them,I certainly wouldn't if I was in business. They make themselves unemployable anyway because their method of employment pays far more than any wage would do ! Then they can screw the system because they know how.
Sorry kid,but I've got no time for them at all.They're all as cunning and as crafty as a cartload of monkeys. They're the winners while the innocent bystanders can only look on in bewilderment at the kid-glove treatment that's dished out to these miscreants.
I have little James Bulger's mother in mind,who's suffered years of torture seeing the " care and concern "that those evil beings have undergone and she has to live the rest of her life under their shadow. If ever I felt for someone,it's her and the horrendous murder of that little boy. It still touches me after all these years,which to me was the worst murder in living history,because it was carried out by little boys who'd already mapped out their rotten lives. There's no place in society for them. Even the police officers suffered and still do.

Online Steve_uk

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2016, 08:31:PM »



Steve,it's an utter insult to the victims that criminals are given new identities then all the fuss and bother of also being given accommodation in different areas. It's this sort of sheer nonsense that is helping toward the draining of resources from the needs of genuine and innocent people.
An absolute waste.There are very few hardened criminals,including murderers who reform anyway,so as far as employing them,I certainly wouldn't if I was in business. They make themselves unemployable anyway because their method of employment pays far more than any wage would do ! Then they can screw the system because they know how.
Sorry kid,but I've got no time for them at all.They're all as cunning and as crafty as a cartload of monkeys. They're the winners while the innocent bystanders can only look on in bewilderment at the kid-glove treatment that's dished out to these miscreants.
I have little James Bulger's mother in mind,who's suffered years of torture seeing the " care and concern "that those evil beings have undergone and she has to live the rest of her life under their shadow. If ever I felt for someone,it's her and the horrendous murder of that little boy. It still touches me after all these years,which to me was the worst murder in living history,because it was carried out by little boys who'd already mapped out their rotten lives. There's no place in society for them. Even the police officers suffered and still do.
I don't know enough about these killers to know whether they can all be tarred with the same brush. I would only say that they are children and I wouldn't like to think their whole future was blighted because of one crime. I don't want to make excuses but wasn't the dad of one of the Bulger killers watching some violent video? The Will Cornick case is more difficult to discern and at 15 he should know the difference between right and wrong. He had asked to drop the subject and the school refused and to my mind it's just not worth the candle to argue. I also feel that extending the school leaving age to 18 will only breed resentment and is another mistake.

Offline Jane J

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2016, 10:22:PM »
No. Let it be part of the punishment. A child criminal usually grows up to be an adult one,so let their names be made public in order to trace them in their adult lives should the need arise.

It seems you won't have given any thought to the natural progression of such a punishment. How would such people find employment? Where would they live if they can't earn? Are you suggesting they sleep in gutters or under hedges? Or perhaps you'd sooner see them put back into residential lock-ups for life. They'll actually end up serving longer sentences than their adult counterparts.

Online Steve_uk

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2016, 10:33:PM »
It seems you won't have given any thought to the natural progression of such a punishment. How would such people find employment? Where would they live if they can't earn? Are you suggesting they sleep in gutters or under hedges? Or perhaps you'd sooner see them put back into residential lock-ups for life. They'll actually end up serving longer sentences than their adult counterparts.
It was also noted that siblings of the perpetrators felt they were stigmatized and lost their privacy as well. I'm sure many do take lookout's view, but it smacks of defeatism if we as a society think we cannot rehabilitate, and as you say times have changed since the full employment days and it would be practically impossible for someone known as a killer to ever get a job.

Offline petey

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2016, 11:09:PM »
Given that one of the cornerstones of the English legal system is that punishment is about retribution and REHABILITATION then I 100% agree that child criminals should be granted anonymity where necessary.

Taking an extreme example there is no possible way that at the age of 10 years of age Robert Thompson and Jon Venables were 100% beyond any possible form of rehabilitation,  therefore of course they should be afforded that opportunity. We live in the 21st century not medieval times.

Online Steve_uk

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2016, 11:24:PM »
Given that one of the cornerstones of the English legal system is that punishment is about retribution and REHABILITATION then I 100% agree that child criminals should be granted anonymity where necessary.

Taking an extreme example there is no possible way that at the age of 10 years of age Robert Thompson and Jon Venables were 100% beyond any possible form of rehabilitation,  therefore of course they should be afforded that opportunity. We live in the 21st century not medieval times.
I agree with the thrust of that but I do sympathize with lookout's view of considering the victims left behind and what signal this is sending out as far as deterrence is concerned. How can you possibly get over the death of a child? Maybe there's a case for restorative justice and I just wonder to what extent the perpetrators of these heinous crimes fully realize what impact their deeds have left on the bereaved.  http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/james-bulgers-mum-fears-killers-8633392
« Last Edit: December 30, 2016, 11:28:PM by Steve_uk »

Offline petey

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2016, 11:51:PM »
I agree with the thrust of that but I do sympathize with lookout's view of considering the victims left behind and what signal this is sending out as far as deterrence is concerned. How can you possibly get over the death of a child? Maybe there's a case for restorative justice and I just wonder to what extent the perpetrators of these heinous crimes fully realize what impact their deeds have left on the bereaved.  http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/james-bulgers-mum-fears-killers-8633392

I completely agree that my sympathy lies with the victims families.

But in the example of RT and JV, although the crimes they committed were heinous, in modern society today they simply have to be offered the chance to be rehabilitated. To not do so would be inhumane and would be like a step back towards capital punishment.

In my opinion no psychologist, psychiatrist, child behavioural expert etc could say implicitly that at the age of 10 neither perpetrator had any possible chance of changing in any way or being able to be rehabilitated. Therefore they simply must be given that opportunity.

Offline Jane J

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2016, 08:38:AM »
I completely agree that my sympathy lies with the victims families.

But in the example of RT and JV, although the crimes they committed were heinous, in modern society today they simply have to be offered the chance to be rehabilitated. To not do so would be inhumane and would be like a step back towards capital punishment.

In my opinion no psychologist, psychiatrist, child behavioural expert etc could say implicitly that at the age of 10 neither perpetrator had any possible chance of changing in any way or being able to be rehabilitated. Therefore they simply must be given that opportunity.

I agree with the thrust of that but I do sympathize with lookout's view of considering the victims left behind and what signal this is sending out as far as deterrence is concerned. How can you possibly get over the death of a child? Maybe there's a case for restorative justice and I just wonder to what extent the perpetrators of these heinous crimes fully realize what impact their deeds have left on the bereaved.  http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/james-bulgers-mum-fears-killers-8633392

I entirely agree with you both. There have been moments when I've felt that victims have been overlooked but God forbid that we should have a mindset which leads to the sort of system advocated by Lookout.

Offline lookout

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2016, 01:59:PM »
Denise Bulger would agree with me and that's all that matters as far as her little boy is concerned.

Offline lookout

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2016, 02:05:PM »
How could anyone talk about rehabilitation,etc.etc. for these murderers, when looking at James's  picture ?? What if it had been your little boy ?

Offline petey

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2016, 03:23:PM »
How could anyone talk about rehabilitation,etc.etc. for these murderers, when looking at James's  picture ?? What if it had been your little boy ?

That's why emotion has to be taken out of the equation to be judged objectively.

If it was my child then understandably I would be absolutely devastated but I would still stand by the doctrine that punishment is about retribution and rehabilitation so would be open to the perpetrators undergoing some form of rehabilitation.

Are you telling me that in your opinion society should stand aside and let RT and JV get what they deserve as in your opinion 'there is no place for them in society'? Does the fact they are 10 years of age affect your reasoning at all or is it a one cap fits all in relation to how you believe they should be punished and age is irrelevant to your mindset?

To me as a rational person, taking aside your opinions on jb, your views here are deeply deeply concerning.


Offline lookout

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Re: Should child criminals be granted anonymity?
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2016, 05:10:PM »
I wouldn't be thinking about anything but retaliation,after the feeling of numbness had worn off. It's human nature for God's sake and 99.9% would think of going after the killer no matter who.
 I can't speak for,nor judge those whose thoughts and ideas go towards rehabilitating murderers,the same as I should neither be judged for my way of thinking as we're all allowed free speech,etc.

I would give the thugs the sentence they deserve along with a regime that was practised in Borstal---then tag them for the rest of their lives so that people knew they were murderers. I would make living as uncomfortable as it could be and because of our " nanny state " there'd always be some mug who'd be willing to give them a chance.Would you ? Would you like someone like that living next door or in the same road as you ?
It's alright paying lip service about what you'd do,but when push comes to shove you wouldn't personally help them. How many murderers do you know who've made something of their lives and given back to the country what they took out ?
At least I'm truthful and don't have to dish out excuses like retribution or rehabilitation.

I don't much care for your views either !