New proposed account of how Sheila could have committed the massacre:

[Adam]

Firstly thank you to the poster who gave an account of how Sheila could have committed the massacre. Supporters usually refuse point blank to do this, and refuse to answer questions on how Sheila committed  the massacre. Or give very basic accounts such as 'by shooting them'.

Anyway the new explanation is below and deserves to be looked at.


" After Sheila fires several rounds at the twins, Neville realises he cannot handle the situation and proceeds to call for assistance (Jeremy and Police) from the kitchen phone. While Neville is on the phone June is in bed awake, but too afraid of what is happening to get out. Sheila then goes to the gun cupboard to reload the weapon. Once reloaded she goes back upstairs to the main bedroom and fires a volley of bullets at June. The sound of gunshots and June screaming prompts Neville to leave the phone and run towards the stairs. While Neville is rushing up the stairs, Sheila is in the main bedroom close to the hallway and fires the remaining four bullets in the magazine at Neville. Neville then retreats back towards the kitchen badly injured he staggers across the kitchen then collapses were his body was found. Sheila then goes back to the gun cupboard to reload for the final time. Finds Neville injured and slumped near the cooker, then fires the three more shots to Nevilles head. Then she makes her way back upstairs to fire the remaining two shots to Junes head. Then finally turns the gun on herself as the police are about the break the door down. "

[Adam]

The explanation states Neville was already up and awake, although still bare footed and in pyjamas when Sheila opened fire on the twins.

Neville had obviously not attempted to get the rifle off Sheila beforehand, and then allowed her to go into the twins bedroom and open fire. June was awake but apparently too afraid to assist Neville or the twins.

Neville watches Sheila open fire into the heads of the twins. However still decides to not attempt to restrain Sheila. Instead allowing the twins to die while he goes downstairs and spends several minutes ringing a 'sleeping like a log' Bamber'. Then the police 16 minutes later.

No request is made by Neville for medical assistance to Bamber or the police.

Sheila for some reason had only fired 8 of the 11 bullets into the twins, before deciding to reload. Neville does not notice Sheila reloading. Or does notice and does nothing, preferring to wait for Bamber and then the police 16 minutes later to answer the phone.

Sheila firing 8 bullets into the twins and then reloading takes well over 16 minutes, as Neville has by now rang and said 11 words to Bamber, and rang and spoken to the police 16 minutes later. 

June has still not left the bed, although the twins have been shot and Sheila has been downstairs reloading for over 16 minutes.

June is laying down with her head on the pillow as Sheila goes back upstairs and fires into June's head and body. There is no evidence of any resistance from June.

Neville has let Sheila re load and go back upstairs with a fully loaded rifle. Or had not noticed Sheila doing this over the last 16 minutes.

Neville has excellent ears and when hearing upstairs gun shots finally decides to confront Sheila. It is a tradedy and massive error that Neville did not confront Sheila pre shooting. 

Neville rushes upstairs unprotected, barefooted and in pyjamas. 

Upon arriving upstairs Sheila accurately fires four bullets into a moving target. Two shots hitting Neville's head.

Despite rushing upstairs to confront Sheila and Neville's upstairs shots being from close range, he still does not physically confront Sheila,  but instead runs straight back downstairs.

Although there is a mass of evidence of a brutal kitchen fight - bruises, abrasions, black eyes, broken nose, broken rifle stock, bloodied rifle, broken watch, smashed and upturned furniture, Neville apparently just collapses when arriving in the kitchen and there is no fight.   

After firing several final shots into a dead/immobilised June and Neville, Sheila for some unexplained reason decides to stay awake until the raid team enter WHF. Which is convinient for supporters.


                                        _______________


Obviously these are many obstacles in this account of how Sheila committed the massacre. But if these can be overcome, maybe there was a way for Sheila to have committed the massacre. 

One option is to say Neville did not call the police. However only Sherlock and Holly from Red have agreed this did not happen. But never too late to amend. You're calls.

[David1819]

The explanation states Neville was already up and awake, although still bare footed and in pyjamas when Sheila opened fire on the twins.

Neville had obviously not attempted to get the rifle off Sheila beforehand, and then allowed her to go into the twins bedroom and open fire. June was awake but apparently too afraid to assist Neville or the twins.

Neville watches Sheila open fire into the heads of the twins. However still decides to not attempt to restrain Sheila. Instead allowing the twins to die while he goes downstairs and spends several minutes ringing a 'sleeping like a log' Bamber'. Then the police 16 minutes later.

No request is made by Neville for medical assistance to Bamber or the police.

Sheila for some reason had only fired 8 of the 11 bullets into the twins, before deciding to reload. Neville does not notice Sheila reloading. Or does notice and does nothing, preferring to wait for Bamber and then the police 16 minutes later to answer the phone.

Sheila firing 8 bullets into the twins and then reloading takes well over 16 minutes, as Neville has by now rang and said 11 words to Bamber, and rang and spoken to the police 16 minutes later. 

June has still not left the bed, although the twins have been shot and Sheila has been downstairs reloading for over 16 minutes.

June is laying down with her head on the pillow as Sheila goes back upstairs and fires into June's head and body. There is no evidence of any resistance from June.

Neville has let Sheila re load and go back upstairs with a fully loaded rifle. Or had not noticed Sheila doing this over the last 16 minutes.

Neville has excellent ears and when hearing upstairs gun shots finally decides to confront Sheila. It is a tradedy and massive error that Neville did not confront Sheila pre shooting. 

Neville rushes upstairs unprotected, barefooted and in pyjamas. 

Upon arriving upstairs Sheila accurately fires four bullets into a moving target. Two shots hitting Neville's head.

Despite rushing upstairs to confront Sheila and Neville's upstairs shots being from close range, he still does not physically confront Sheila,  but instead runs straight back downstairs.

Although there is a mass of evidence of a brutal kitchen fight - bruises, abrasions, black eyes, broken nose, broken rifle stock, bloodied rifle, broken watch, smashed and upturned furniture, Neville apparently just collapses when arriving in the kitchen and there is no fight.   

After firing several final shots into a dead/immobilised June and Neville, Sheila for some unexplained reason decides to stay awake until the raid team enter WHF. Which is convinient for supporters.


                                        _______________


Obviously these are many obstacles in this account of how Sheila committed the massacre. But if these can be overcome, maybe there was a way for Sheila to have committed the massacre. 

One option is to say Neville did not call the police. However only Sherlock and Holly from Red have agreed this did not happen. But never too late to amend. You're calls.

Having skimmed through this, there are no obstacles.

June being in bed has two explanations. Either A) She was awake but too afraid to get out or B)was on her sleeping pills.

You say it would take over 16 minutes to reload the weapon? what was it a musket?

[Adam]

Having skimmed through this, there are no obstacles.

June being in bed has two explanations. Either A) She was awake but too afraid to get out or B)was on her sleeping pills.

You say it would take over 16 minutes to reload the weapon? what was it a musket?

Obviously you have to do more than skim through it and then claim 'there are no obstacles' without justifying this claim. I didn't do this with you're account.

You said Sheila re loaded while Neville was phoning Bamber and the police. There was a 16 minute gap between these phone calls. As stated by Bamber. Each call would have also taken several minutes to complete.

Have you got a source that June took sleeping pills ? Supporters have said June was a light sleeper and would have heard Bamber. But if awake, as you're account says, she must have completely fozen and offerred no resistance or assistance.

[Adam]

Another issue with the proposed account is that it says Neville went to phone Bamber and then the police after Sheila had started shooting the twins. Sheila also reloaded while Neville was making these phone calls.

Phoning Bamber at 3.10am would have taken between 2 - 5 minutes. Dependant totally on how long it was before Bamber answered the phone, as only 11 words were said once answered.

This means there is a period of between 11 and 14 minutes before Neville then called the police at 3.26am. Was Neville just watching Sheila re load for this period. If not, what was he doing ?

[Adam]

Hopefully there will be some opinions on this new proposed scenario. From both camps.

I invited Lookout to contribute today as she has never discussed how Sheila committed the massacre, but my invitation was declined.

David said he skim read my 15 obstacles, didn't address any of them and claimed his account had no obstacles. Which is disappointing.

It is a big issue when a supporter gives an account of how Sheila could have committed the massacre. As supporters and former supporters always refuse point blank to get drawn on this.

Only Mike, Sherlock and David have attempted accounts. Mike's was very brief, just saying 'by shooting them'.  Sherlock amended his account and agreed Neville did not phone the police after his account was questioned.

Hopefully David will put forward 15 good counter arguments to my points or be flexible in amending his account.

[David1819]

Another issue with the proposed account is that it says Neville went to phone Bamber and then the police after Sheila had started shooting the twins. Sheila also reloaded while Neville was making these phone calls.

Phoning Bamber at 3.10am would have taken between 2 - 5 minutes. Dependant totally on how long it was before Bamber answered the phone, as only 11 words were said once answered.

This means there is a period of between 11 and 14 minutes before Neville then called the police at 3.26am. Was Neville just watching Sheila re load for this period. If not, what was he doing ?

I don't believe Neville rang the police. Problem solved

[Steve_uk]

I don't believe Neville rang the police. Problem solved

Then you must believe Jeremy is guilty.

[David1819]

Then you must believe Jeremy is guilty.

Explain.

[Adam]

I don't believe Neville rang the police. Problem solved

Great. That's a start. It was always wildly optimistic for Bamber to make this claim 24 years after the event. Although he didn't include it in his CCRC application.

My 15 obstacles are still valid, the only difference is Sheila spent 2 - 5 minutes reloading after shooting the twins. Neville phoning Bamber while Sheila was reloading. 

[Steve_uk]

Explain.

Oh you believe Nevill rang Jeremy first but not the Police? You believe Nevill got to a phone that morning? Well that's up to you..

[David1819]

Oh you believe Nevill rang Jeremy first but not the Police? You believe Nevill got to a phone that morning? Well that's up to you..

I believe so not because I take Jeremy's word for it, but because the forensic evidence indirectly shows it took place.

[Adam]

It's good that a supporter has agreed that Bamber did not ring the police. I have often offerred people the opportunity to refute this claim from the CT. But supporters still say that the police deliberatly did not tell Bamber Neville had called them. Not even Taff Jones. It's really more loyal to agree with the 2012 CCRC application, which does not include this claim.

Anyway my 15 obstacles still exist. The main difference is Sheila spent 2 - 5 minutes reloading while Neville was ringing Bamber. Rather than 16 minutes.

It will be good if me and David can get some assistance. There is a lot to go through.

[David1819]

It's good that a supporter has agreed that Bamber did not ring the police. I have often offerred people the opportunity to refute this claim from the CT. But supporters still say that the police deliberatly did not tell Bamber Neville had called them. Not even Taff Jones. It's really more loyal to agree with the 2012 CCRC application, which does not include this claim.

Anyway my 15 obstacles still exist. The main difference is Sheila spent 2 - 5 minutes reloading while Neville was ringing Bamber. Rather than 16 minutes.

It will be good if me and David can get some assistance. There is a lot to go through.

There is not much to go through at all.

[Adam]

In conclusion, everyone should be pleased that a new scenario of how Sheila could have committed the massacre was created. Which is something which has hardly ever been offerred.

This scenario is a lot more detailed than Mike's, which just said 'by shooting them'. However there are at least 15 major flaws which have not been tackled. Not even by other supporters. Which is a shame as everyone wants to give a credible account of how Sheila could have committed the massacre.

I did ask another supporter to contribute, or simply agreed with the suggestion that Neville rang Bamber after Sheila started shooting the sleeping twins. But got no response. Some progress was made when it was agreed that Neville did not ring the police. Agreed by one poster anyway.