Author Topic: EU Referendum  (Read 4403 times)

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Offline Roch

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #90 on: June 29, 2019, 12:21:AM »
Some people are retiring to countries with a better climate and are leaving the workforce altogether; others are emigrating for a better quality of life. The UK is still taking in immigrants at an unsustainable rate even if the numbers are slowing down.

Agree.   I think the damage is done now.  Would have like us to have taken a much firmer stance a lot earlier, alongside a genuine 'ethical foreign policy' which I think was a term coined by New Labour.  Sadly it was just words.  We should not be assisting or supporting countries whose actions and policies cause refugees to occur in the first place.  As for economic migrants, it's complex but must be strictly micro-managed in the interests of the host country.

Offline Caroline

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #91 on: July 08, 2019, 09:25:AM »
Agree.   I think the damage is done now.  Would have like us to have taken a much firmer stance a lot earlier, alongside a genuine 'ethical foreign policy' which I think was a term coined by New Labour.  Sadly it was just words.  We should not be assisting or supporting countries whose actions and policies cause refugees to occur in the first place.  As for economic migrants, it's complex but must be strictly micro-managed in the interests of the host country.

Bexit should not be about immigration.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #92 on: July 09, 2019, 06:28:PM »
Bexit should not be about immigration.
It's in the mix Caroline because low-skilled immigrants drive wages down.

Offline maggie

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #93 on: July 10, 2019, 11:34:AM »
It's in the mix Caroline because low-skilled immigrants drive wages down.
I think that is more to do with government attitudes rather than immigration per se.  What about nurses from within the EU?  're they immigrant workers or professionals? How much would a fruit farmer ever pay fruit pickers whether from UK or elsewhere unless the minimum wage was enforced?  In the area where I live pre free movement of people fruit picking was seasonal, casual, low paid work, often done by 'housewive's'.  Now that most women work at regular jobs, just like men, there is a definite need for fruit pickers from wherever, however all workers should be paid the minimum wage which should be raised to a decent standard.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #94 on: July 10, 2019, 10:10:PM »
I think that is more to do with government attitudes rather than immigration per se.  What about nurses from within the EU?  're they immigrant workers or professionals? How much would a fruit farmer ever pay fruit pickers whether from UK or elsewhere unless the minimum wage was enforced?  In the area where I live pre free movement of people fruit picking was seasonal, casual, low paid work, often done by 'housewive's'.  Now that most women work at regular jobs, just like men, there is a definite need for fruit pickers from wherever, however all workers should be paid the minimum wage which should be raised to a decent standard.
It's all very well taking nurses from Poland and I don't wish to disparage these individuals in any way. But there must be huge gaps now in these Eastern European countries and who is going to look after their old folk? The whole concept is a nonsense unless Brits make the journey to Poland, Bulgaria or wherever and this just isn't going to happen.

Offline Jane

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #95 on: July 11, 2019, 07:52:AM »
It's all very well taking nurses from Poland and I don't wish to disparage these individuals in any way. But there must be huge gaps now in these Eastern European countries and who is going to look after their old folk? The whole concept is a nonsense unless Brits make the journey to Poland, Bulgaria or wherever and this just isn't going to happen.


My friend is theatre sister on the opthalmology ward of our large local hospital. She heads a team of nurses, NONE of whom are British. She has no fault to find with any of them, indeed, if they, along with ALL other nationalities were sent back to their countries of origin, she believes the NHS would collapse within a month. Further, she said there was once a time when a junior nurse, when asked to perform a caring -'menial'?- task, ie helping a patient to go to the bathroom or giving them a wash, they'd do it because they knew it was part of their training, NOW, she's required to ask would they mind doing it. On more than one occasion she's been told that the nurse in question was not doing a degree to wipe someone's bottom, and they refused. Academia and vocation, it seems, do not sit comfortably together. From the horse's mouth, our hospitals are not as clean, since outside cleaners have been employed, as they were when nurses were doing it. Could it be that nurses took more pride -and felt it to be their responsibility- in keeping patients safe, than do outside contractors?

Personally, I have no bias. I'm inclined towards employing the person best capable of doing the job. My only caveat is my concern for the very elderly whose hearing is declining, as, maybe, is their mental capacity. They don't always hear what their fellow countrymen say, trying to decipher strange accents at a time when they're at their most vulnerable, can be scary.

Offline Caroline

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #96 on: July 11, 2019, 01:11:PM »
It's in the mix Caroline because low-skilled immigrants drive wages down.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46918729

Offline Caroline

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #97 on: July 11, 2019, 01:14:PM »

My friend is theatre sister on the opthalmology ward of our large local hospital. She heads a team of nurses, NONE of whom are British. She has no fault to find with any of them, indeed, if they, along with ALL other nationalities were sent back to their countries of origin, she believes the NHS would collapse within a month. Further, she said there was once a time when a junior nurse, when asked to perform a caring -'menial'?- task, ie helping a patient to go to the bathroom or giving them a wash, they'd do it because they knew it was part of their training, NOW, she's required to ask would they mind doing it. On more than one occasion she's been told that the nurse in question was not doing a degree to wipe someone's bottom, and they refused. Academia and vocation, it seems, do not sit comfortably together. From the horse's mouth, our hospitals are not as clean, since outside cleaners have been employed, as they were when nurses were doing it. Could it be that nurses took more pride -and felt it to be their responsibility- in keeping patients safe, than do outside contractors?

Personally, I have no bias. I'm inclined towards employing the person best capable of doing the job. My only caveat is my concern for the very elderly whose hearing is declining, as, maybe, is their mental capacity. They don't always hear what their fellow countrymen say, trying to decipher strange accents at a time when they're at their most vulnerable, can be scary.

Better that than hearing no voice at all.

Offline Jane

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #98 on: July 11, 2019, 03:04:PM »
Better that than hearing no voice at all.


On balance, indeed so.

Offline maggie

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #99 on: July 11, 2019, 03:30:PM »

My friend is theatre sister on the opthalmology ward of our large local hospital. She heads a team of nurses, NONE of whom are British. She has no fault to find with any of them, indeed, if they, along with ALL other nationalities were sent back to their countries of origin, she believes the NHS would collapse within a month. Further, she said there was once a time when a junior nurse, when asked to perform a caring -'menial'?- task, ie helping a patient to go to the bathroom or giving them a wash, they'd do it because they knew it was part of their training, NOW, she's required to ask would they mind doing it. On more than one occasion she's been told that the nurse in question was not doing a degree to wipe someone's bottom, and they refused. Academia and vocation, it seems, do not sit comfortably together. From the horse's mouth, our hospitals are not as clean, since outside cleaners have been employed, as they were when nurses were doing it. Could it be that nurses took more pride -and felt it to be their responsibility- in keeping patients safe, than do outside contractors?

Personally, I have no bias. I'm inclined towards employing the person best capable of doing the job. My only caveat is my concern for the very elderly whose hearing is declining, as, maybe, is their mental capacity. They don't always hear what their fellow countrymen say, trying to decipher strange accents at a time when they're at their most vulnerable, can be scary.
All true Jane.  Training used to be done mainly on the wards with 6 week blocks being tutored.  The menial jobs were very much part of training as it is the basis of nursing.  While doing personal care you build a relationship with a patient which is important in building trust which enables a nurse to assess and understand their patient, so much of this has been lost in recent years and it has left a gap in nursing care which has knock on consequences on various levels.  Of course in those days as a student nurse I worked alongside commonwealth student nurses rather than those trained in different European countries.

Offline maggie

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #100 on: July 11, 2019, 03:43:PM »
It's all very well taking nurses from Poland and I don't wish to disparage these individuals in any way. But there must be huge gaps now in these Eastern European countries and who is going to look after their old folk? The whole concept is a nonsense unless Brits make the journey to Poland, Bulgaria or wherever and this just isn't going to happen.
No Steve in the nursing profession there are enough trained nurses remaining in their home countries  in fact in Spain so many nurses have left the UK and gone home due to the uncertainty over Brexit that Spain now has a surplus of nurses at least some of whom will move on to other countries.  I’m sure similar situation occur in the care sector.  We don’t have enough young people to fill these important roles in this country and need immigration.

Offline Jane

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #101 on: July 11, 2019, 04:53:PM »
All true Jane.  Training used to be done mainly on the wards with 6 week blocks being tutored.  The menial jobs were very much part of training as it is the basis of nursing.  While doing personal care you build a relationship with a patient which is important in building trust which enables a nurse to assess and understand their patient, so much of this has been lost in recent years and it has left a gap in nursing care which has knock on consequences on various levels.  Of course in those days as a student nurse I worked alongside commonwealth student nurses rather than those trained in different European countries.


Maggie, it's my opinion that nursing is one of those jobs -no, vocations- which is probably best done hands on. The apprenticeship route with day release for the necessary academic component. I can't help but feel it all worked SO much better when there was a Matron, ward sisters, staff nurses, and nurses at all levels from senior to junior. Where did SRN's fit in, and how were they different from those who were RCN's? Also, what's the difference between accepting commonwealth student nurses and rejecting fully trained nurses from European countries? Is it to do with training standards?

Offline Caroline

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #102 on: July 11, 2019, 07:28:PM »
All true Jane.  Training used to be done mainly on the wards with 6 week blocks being tutored.  The menial jobs were very much part of training as it is the basis of nursing.  While doing personal care you build a relationship with a patient which is important in building trust which enables a nurse to assess and understand their patient, so much of this has been lost in recent years and it has left a gap in nursing care which has knock on consequences on various levels.  Of course in those days as a student nurse I worked alongside commonwealth student nurses rather than those trained in different European countries.

None of that now, there is almost no rapport at all.

Offline maggie

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #103 on: July 12, 2019, 09:13:AM »
None of that now, there is almost no rapport at all.
I know Caroline,that interaction between patient and nursing staff seems to be actively discouraged in many areas there days. It is the basis of all nursing, all very well to be technically excellent but it is only half the story.  We used to have the best training in the world but sadly we have fallen behind most of Europe.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 12:59:PM by maggie »

Offline Caroline

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Re: EU Referendum
« Reply #104 on: July 12, 2019, 04:15:PM »
I know Caroline,that interaction between patient and nursing staff seems to be actively discouraged in many areas there days. It is the basis of all nursing, all very well to be technically excellent but it is only half the story.  We used to have the best training in the world but sadly we have fallen behind most of Europe.

I think that's true of just about everything now and I fully believe that if we leave the EU iut will only get worse.