Logs - make your own minds up

[mike tesko]

Logs - make your own minds up

[bigpod]

From the log it appears unequivocal that the firearms team were in conversation (indicative of two way communication) with someone inside at 0525.
Also BT closed down the 999 connection at 0747. Is this the line from the farmhouse, and does it indicate that the line had been open on that number throughout the incident. If so, it was obviously the last number called, as JB claims.
The point about two bodies is also seems very clear, but I understand the point someone (Kaldin?) has made to explain why it may not be "black and white".

[grahameb]

I notice that on 2 of the logs it is mentioned quite clearly "police entered premises 1 male dead 1 female dead" and then again, "One dead male and onw dead female in the kitchen". Twice they said it in two different logs.

[mike tesko]

I notice that on 2 of the logs it is mentioned quite clearly "police entered premises 1 male dead 1 female dead" and then again, "One dead male and onw dead female in the kitchen". Twice they said it in two different logs.

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Mentioned three times, actually - see logs 3, 8 and 10, all independently of one another on separate logs, now that can't be a mistake...

[Roch]

I notice that on 2 of the logs it is mentioned quite clearly "police entered premises 1 male dead 1 female dead" and then again, "One dead male and one dead female in the kitchen". Twice they said it in two different logs.

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Mentioned three times, actually - see logs 3, 8 and 10, all independently of one another on separate logs, now that can't be a mistake...

I find it difficult to understand how anyone could buy the police response, that it was a mistake. 

For a start, regardless of how much you can see of Ralph's body through the kitchen window... in whatever position he was in... he simply could not be mistaken for the body of Sheila Caffell.  He is 6' 4", strapping and aged.... She appears waif-like and has dyed black hair in her crime scene photographs.  .  Bamber would have been asked to physically describe the occupants of the farmhouse, the same as he was asked to draw-up plans of the layout and weapons inside. 

Secondly, it cannot be claimed that Ralph was mistook for June... because given the circumstances that morning, June would not be described as a "suicide". 

Thirdly, the logs mention 1 dead male first and 1 dead female second....  If we are to buy the police response, it should be the other way round. 

Fourthly, there's the 'further three bodies found' which would imply two mistakes...

And finally... between 7.30 am and 8.10 am, a period of 40 minutes...  nobody bothered to correct the mistake/s... despite the fact that there are several two way conversations going on with ample opportunity for the checking of facts?   

If anyone on this site sees them self as a cautious skeptic... then surely the idea that the police made a mistake by looking through the window should be like a flashing, industrial fire alarm.

[shonapugs]

Hang on, Rochy love. The police might have seen Ralph's hair flopped forward, which it was, and mistaken the body for a female one, in the heat of the moment. Perhaps.

[Roch]

Hang on, Rochy love. The police might have seen Ralph's hair flopped forward, which it was, and mistaken the body for a female one, in the heat of the moment. Perhaps.

Grey hair flopped forward?  Could only be mistaken for Grey haired female, IMO Pugsy.  And the logs would list 1 dead female first... and 1 dead male second, again IMO.

[shonapugs]

But the coppers didn't really know what they were going to find. They might have just seen a body with long hair, hanging down, and presumed it was female. This was at the very beginning of the investigation. They made so many mistakes.

[Roch]

But the coppers didn't really know what they were going to find. They might have just seen a body with long hair, hanging down, and presumed it was female. This was at the very beginning of the investigation. They made so many mistakes.

I think the keystone cops thing is just a very convenient cover.  They were tactical fire group officers. There was ample time to correct any factual mistakes about bodies.  The reasons why the logs were not corrected is because they didn't make a mistake. 

[clifford]

Logs - make your own minds up

The first log is dated 3/8/85. The subsequent logs dates are not visable, at least not the day/ date.
How can the date be the 3rd when the date was supposed to be the 7th.

[Roch]

Logs - make your own minds up

The first log is dated 3/8/85. The subsequent logs dates are not visable, at least not the day/ date.
How can the date be the 3rd when the date was supposed to be the 7th.

Think it's a 'French 7' Cliff    I've never understood why people do that. put that line through.

[Hartley]

But the coppers didn't really know what they were going to find. They might have just seen a body with long hair, hanging down, and presumed it was female. This was at the very beginning of the investigation. They made so many mistakes.

I think the keystone cops thing is just a very convenient cover.  They were tactical fire group officers. There was ample time to correct any factual mistakes about bodies.  The reasons why the logs were not corrected is because they didn't make a mistake.

Hmmm it's possible I suppose, but then it's likewise very convenient for the defence to pick out various witness statements and discount them because they don't tally with an innocent verdict, therefore they must be lying.

Every single theory about a scenario in which JB is innocent includes a cover up by the police or the relatives or both. Which is also possible of course, but is it as far fetched as mistakes in a log or more so?

[clifford]

Logs - make your own minds up

The first log is dated 3/8/85. The subsequent logs dates are not visable, at least not the day/ date.
How can the date be the 3rd when the date was supposed to be the 7th.

Think it's a 'French 7' Cliff    I've never understood why people do that. put that line through.

I did consider that Rochy, but I cannot see the line through it. Further on in the logs you can clearly see the line through. It is by another hand though. I am led to believe the line is so 3 cannot be mistaken for a 7, and visa versa.

[Roch]

I notice that on 2 of the logs it is mentioned quite clearly "police entered premises 1 male dead 1 female dead" and then again, "One dead male and one dead female in the kitchen". Twice they said it in two different logs.

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Just realised... sixth reason... 'Found on entry' ... 'police entered property'.   So there's six obstacles that need explaining, if we are to buy the police response about the logs.  What price any skeptic, leaning towards guilt, would overlook six obstacles?

I find it difficult to understand how anyone could buy the police response, that it was a mistake. 

For a start, regardless of how much you can see of Ralph's body through the kitchen window... in whatever position he was in... he simply could not be mistaken for the body of Sheila Caffell.  He is 6' 4", strapping and aged.... She appears waif-like and has dyed black hair in her crime scene photographs.  .  Bamber would have been asked to physically describe the occupants of the farmhouse, the same as he was asked to draw-up plans of the layout and weapons inside. 

Secondly, it cannot be claimed that Ralph was mistook for June... because given the circumstances that morning, June would not be described as a "suicide". 

Thirdly, the logs mention 1 dead male first and 1 dead female second....  If we are to buy the police response, it should be the other way round. 

Fourthly, there's the 'further three bodies found' which would imply two mistakes...

And finally... between 7.30 am and 8.10 am, a period of 40 minutes...  nobody bothered to correct the mistake/s... despite the fact that there are several two way conversations going on with ample opportunity for the checking of facts?   

If anyone on this site sees them self as a cautious skeptic... then surely the idea that the police made a mistake by looking through the window should be like a flashing, industrial fire alarm.

Hartley.. there's a sixth reason.  'Found on entry'  'police entered property'.  Now I know you a are very cautious skeptic because you have admitted as much.  So I'm asking you about this issue alone... How does a cautious skeptic, leaning towards guilt, deal with these six obstacles, one by one? Re 1 dead male... 1 dead female...Surely skepticism needs to be applied to the police version also?

[Hartley]

Yes I am sceptical  Although I'm open to other possibilities.

My first observation is that it is not two logs at all, well I mean it's not two logs of two communications, it's a record of the same communication by sender and receiver. So the argument that it's recorded twice in two different places is incorrect.

On the first image below (The wireless Message Log):
To: I/R (Insp Norman at Chelmsford)
From: CA07 (by police radio)

On the second image below:
Sender: CA07 (by police radio)
Receiver: Insp Norman (at Chelmsford).