Who has more rights thirty years on: Jeremy or Colin?

[Jane]

Although there is little doubt that June was a strong and possibly highly controlling person, I don't believe that is the complete cause for Sheila's apparent self doubt and lack of confidence.
Schizophrenia does not suddenly appear but is a gradual process. Pre schizophrenia tends to show in teenage years as low self esteem and self belief, chaotic thinking, anxiety, etc.  Obviously this often goes unnoticed and is dismissed as part of teenage development. It is possible as June had her own mental health problems she was ill equipped to recognise her daughter may have problems  other than being a difficult teenager or because of her own religious obsession that Sheila had 'bad blood' possibly because she was illegitimate. Sheila was away at boarding school, finishing school etc.  so there was also probably a lack of emotional involvement and support  for Sheila not unusual between children and parents who choose to send their children away at a young age.

In theory that's correct. However, the 'grooming'  -and that's undoubtedly what it was- of a child starts LONG before it reaches it's teenage years. By the time a child reaches that age it's too late to start. I suspect, from everything I've read, that June had very fixed ideas of how -WHO- her biological child would have been, and set out, perhaps NOT unnaturally, to form Sheila into that child. That Sheila probably reached those difficult teenage years, not knowing who she really was, but not feeling right about the person she was being, is probably not great surprise....................and that's BEFORE the schizophrenia kicks in.

[JackieD]

Although there is little doubt that June was a strong and possibly highly controlling person, I don't believe that is the complete cause for Sheila's apparent self doubt and lack of confidence.
Schizophrenia does not suddenly appear but is a gradual process. Pre schizophrenia tends to show in teenage years as low self esteem and self belief, chaotic thinking, anxiety, etc.  Obviously this often goes unnoticed and is dismissed as part of teenage development. It is possible as June had her own mental health problems she was ill equipped to recognise her daughter may have problems  other than being a difficult teenager or because of her own religious obsession that Sheila had 'bad blood' possibly because she was illegitimate. Sheila was away at boarding school, finishing school etc.  so there was also probably a lack of emotional involvement and support  for Sheila not unusual between children and parents who choose to send their children away at a young age.

It's very sad Maggie and even after expert help later on didn't stop Sheila committing suicide

[lookout]

The sad,but true fact was/is that mental illness is invisible and because a person appears that all is well with them,sometimes it couldn't be further from the truth.
You can see physical illnesses along with broken limbs,but mental illness is difficult to pinpoint.
Why it should be treated any differently from physical illness,I don't know,as many will experience mental health at some point in their lives.

[Steve_uk]

Although there is little doubt that June was a strong and possibly highly controlling person, I don't believe that is the complete cause for Sheila's apparent self doubt and lack of confidence.
Schizophrenia does not suddenly appear but is a gradual process. Pre schizophrenia tends to show in teenage years as low self esteem and self belief, chaotic thinking, anxiety, etc.  Obviously this often goes unnoticed and is dismissed as part of teenage development. It is possible as June had her own mental health problems she was ill equipped to recognise her daughter may have problems  other than being a difficult teenager or because of her own religious obsession that Sheila had 'bad blood' possibly because she was illegitimate. Sheila was away at boarding school, finishing school etc.  so there was also probably a lack of emotional involvement and support  for Sheila not unusual between children and parents who choose to send their children away at a young age.

I agree about the gradual process idea and I'm not blaming June for her daughter's schizophrenia. Once diagnosed the Bambers offered their support as best they knew how: June with her practical offering of food parcels as she drove up to London and Nevill being at the other end of a telephone for her at White House Farm in the evenings and later paying for the private hospital in Northampton.

However there's no doubt that damage was done and I won't let them off lightly. Sheila, as Jeremy, couldn't really benefit from the rigours of a public school education and I'm far more inclined to believe that there was a snob element of what was perceived as paying for the best education money could buy. There was the excuse on behalf of Jeremy that he would have to employ local labour in the future and it was better if he were deemed to be superior to them, but I wonder what excuse they ever gave Sheila had she ever inquired as to why she was packed off to Moira House mid-term?  The "Devil's Child" remark by June, coming as it did when her daughter was 17 years old was also unforgivable, as was her limp response to the birth of her grandchildren, just at a time when Sheila needed the most encouragement to move onto a new stage of her life.

[Steve_uk]

Is there any chance of posting that eleven year old's painting Steve?

It's not in the book, unfortunately, but I see the picture as a way of releasing some of the tension that she must have endured as a new girl in a strange environment, after the trauma of separation from her birth mother, the acquaintance with June and again isolation as June became ill and needed medical intervention. Sheila evidently depicted herself as head bowed, lowly and dejected, whilst the other girls lauded it from above as they mocked from the superior position of the staircase.

[Jane]

I agree about the gradual process idea and I'm not blaming June for her daughter's schizophrenia. Once diagnosed the Bambers offered their support as best they knew how: June with her practical offering of food parcels as she drove up to London and Nevill being at the other end of a telephone for her at White House Farm in the evenings and later paying for the private hospital in Northampton.

However there's no doubt that damage was done and I won't let them off lightly. Sheila, as Jeremy, couldn't really benefit from the rigours of a public school education and I'm far more inclined to believe that there was a snob element of what was perceived as paying for the best education money could buy. There was the excuse on behalf of Jeremy that he would have to employ local labour in the future and it was better if he were deemed to be superior to them, but I wonder what excuse they ever gave Sheila had she ever inquired as to why she was packed off to Moira House mid-term?  The "Devil's Child" remark by June, coming as it did when her daughter was 17 years old was also unforgivable, as was her limp response to the birth of her grandchildren, just at a time when Sheila needed the most encouragement to move onto a new stage of her life.

For all that you and I have said re June's upbringing of Sheila and Jeremy, Steve, the simple truth is that she had -as do the rest of us- no other frame of reference than her own. I don't believe there to have been anything snobbish about their choice of school for Sheila. There was no other form of education available to them -I would be interested to know, however, just what it was that the boarding school in Eastbourne appeared to offer which made it a suitable place to bring out whatever they believed were Sheila's talents- OR was it just that mid-term, (was there a family crisis?) it was the only school willing to take her?

[lookout]

Even the twins suffered with their thoughts drawn on paper. Not exactly typical of your 5/6 year olds,depicting tears coming from the sun,fire and a general miserable feel to them. Nothing happy about them at all.

[Steve_uk]

In theory that's correct. However, the 'grooming'  -and that's undoubtedly what it was- of a child starts LONG before it reaches it's teenage years. By the time a child reaches that age it's too late to start. I suspect, from everything I've read, that June had very fixed ideas of how -WHO- her biological child would have been, and set out, perhaps NOT unnaturally, to form Sheila into that child. That Sheila probably reached those difficult teenage years, not knowing who she really was, but not feeling right about the person she was being, is probably not great surprise....................and that's BEFORE the schizophrenia kicks in.

The grooming, or the moulding of Sheila into what June wanted her to become, meant that her daughter never had a safe haven, the nearest to it being her Maida Vale flat, though by then the schizophrenia was incipient as she found it impossible to hold down any day to day job. It was on her modelling assignment in Japan that she came to understand the real world and react against it, as she solicited the appointment with a psychiatrist on her return.

[Jane]

The grooming, or the moulding of Sheila into what June wanted her to become, meant that her daughter never had a safe haven, the nearest to it being her Maida Vale flat, though by then the schizophrenia was incipient as she found it impossible to hold down any day to day job. It was on her modelling assignment in Japan that she came to understand the real world and react against it, as she solicited the appointment with a psychiatrist on her return.

Steve, Maida Vale was way, WAY too late. The damage had been done before Sheila started school. It happened during those years when June could inflict, on her, and get no argument,  her own dictates of right and wrong, and the way in which a true and grateful Christian child, who adhered to parental strictures, should live her life.

[Steve_uk]

For all that you and I have said re June's upbringing of Sheila and Jeremy, Steve, the simple truth is that she had -as do the rest of us- no other frame of reference than her own. I don't believe there to have been anything snobbish about their choice of school for Sheila. There was no other form of education available to them -I would be interested to know, however, just what it was that the boarding school in Eastbourne appeared to offer which made it a suitable place to bring out whatever they believed were Sheila's talents- OR was it just that mid-term, (was there a family crisis?) it was the only school willing to take her?

And yet they did make that momentous decision to pack her off mid-term, which makes me think it was rather spur of the moment. Was Nevill mentally shattered following his sister's death from a car accident in 1968 and was June rather relieved that a developing beauty was moved out of the way? It appears that Hethersett became available a year later, by which time Sheila must have formed her own opinions both about her parents and life in general.

[Steve_uk]

Even the twins suffered with their thoughts drawn on paper. Not exactly typical of your 5/6 year olds,depicting tears coming from the sun,fire and a general miserable feel to them. Nothing happy about them at all.

But they were never directed against mummy, only against June. Children are sensitive to atmosphere yet they treasured their weekends spent with her, which makes me think many of these stories which abounded after her death were exaggerations.

[Jane]

And yet they did make that momentous decision to pack her off mid-term, which makes me think it was rather spur of the moment. Was Nevill mentally shattered following his sister's death from a car accident in 1968 and was June rather relieved that a developing beauty was moved out of the way? It appears that Hethersett became available a year later, by which time Sheila must have formed her own opinions both about her parents and life in general.

She may have started to form her own opinions, but without professional help, I don't think they'd have been unaccompanied by huge feelings of guilt and disloyalty that this would have been going against everything her mother had taught her was right and proper behaviour. This confusion, of course, doesn't bode well for mental health.

[Steve_uk]

Steve, Maida Vale was way, WAY too late. The damage had been done before Sheila started school. It happened during those years when June could inflict, on her, and get no argument,  her own dictates of right and wrong, and the way in which a true and grateful Christian child, who adhered to parental strictures, should live her life.

I think she tried to be independent but didn't have the inherent ability or the natural self-confidence to become a success. Her only foil became Colin, and he endured what most men would not. She did gain acquaintances in the Maida Vale set, but they were often in as much need of assistance as Sheila herself.

[Steve_uk]

She may have started to form her own opinions, but without professional help, I don't think they'd have been unaccompanied by huge feelings of guilt and disloyalty that this would have been going against everything her mother had taught her was right and proper behaviour. This confusion, of course, doesn't bode well for mental health.

I think she did lack the wherewithal to laugh it off as some children might have done as they advanced in their twenties. The fact that Sheila didn't speak all the way down to White House Farm on that final fateful journey suggests to me that she was still ill and apprehensive of things she would face upon arrival.

[Jane]

I think she tried to be independent but didn't have the inherent ability or the natural self-confidence to become a success. Her only foil became Colin, and he endured what most men would not. She did gain acquaintances in the Maida Vale set, but they were often in as much need of assistance as Sheila herself.

Yes. There's a curious dichotomy here, I feel. We know that Sheila and Colin were a match made in hell, but Colin gave Sheila a reason to get away -in her mind- from the restraining influence of her mother. It also gave Colin a guaranteed financial source -at a cost to him- which meant he had no need to get a 'proper job' to support Sheila.