Russia - worrying?

[gringo]

    How many times do you think the OPCW have referred to Novichok use by Russia in the "investigations" into Novichok use by Russia? Have you read the report? (the answer is zero mentions in case you were curious)
    Despite what you believe, beyond groundless and evidence free accusations, there is zero evidence of Novichok use. The ball is in your court to produce some.
   
   

[David1819]

From Russian chemist Vil Sultanovich Mirzayanov


"For a long time Russia simply reproduced the chemical weapons of Western countries; however, in the beginning of the 1970s Russian scientist Petr Kirpichev and his team created a new class of chemical agents which are many times more lethal than anything known up to this time. Moreover, the chemical agent known to us as A-232 was not a traditional phosphoorganic nerve agent of known structure. For that purpose, GOSNIIOKhT expressly synthesized a pesticide with an analogous structure. This opened up the possibility of using agricultural chemicals as components of binary weapons. Russia profited from this deception and set traps during the time of negotiations of the Convention on the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (CWC), especially in connection with the advancement of their binary weapons program. When two relatively harmless components react with each other during the flight of a rocket and produce a deadly chemical agent, the binary weapon eliminates most of the expense and danger of the production and storage of chemical agents. It also makes them extremely difficult to monitor and control.

Even when the CWC was being negotiated, Russia secretly and persistently pressed forward with its program of development and testing of the new class of binary chemical agents under the code name Novichok, which means “newcomer” in Russian. According to the Wyoming Accord, both the United States and Russia were required to declare their stores of chemical weapons, but Russia lied about the quantity stockpiled and has never acknowledged the Novichok program to this day. As a scientist and as a human being, I went through a long soul searching process and came to the heart wrenching realization that not only were chemical weapons useless for the country’s defense, but their main purpose is the mass slaughter of civilians. I could not bear to continue to participate in the deception of the world community by Russia’s ruling class. They just wanted to exploit the loopholes written into the CWC in order to destroy their old and useless chemical weapons, while trying to keep the development and stockpiling of new deadly binary weapons a secret."

[David1819]

https://fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/cbw/jptac008_l94001.htm

[David1819]

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2020/01/17/the-opcw-douma-leaks-part-2-we-need-to-talk-about-henderson/

[David1819]

From Russian chemist Vil Sultanovich Mirzayanov

"From 1971 to 1973, Petr Kirpichev, a senior scientist from the Shikhany branch of GOSNIIOKhT, and his assistants developed a new class of chemical agents which later became known as Novichok agents, and all problems connected with them received this codename. The word “Novichok” translates as “newcomer”. At first, Substance A-230 was synthesized and tested, which stands for

      F     
     /
CH3-P=O
     \       
      N=C(CH3)-N(C2H5)2

or N-2-diethylaminomethylacetoamidido-methylphosphonofluoridate (Codename A-230 or Substance 84). For the first time, the acetoamydin-radical (C2H5)2N-C(CH3)=N- (creating P-N–bound) was introduced into the molecular skeleton of sarin or soman, instead of the O-alkyl radical. This was fantastic from standpoint of military chemists, because the toxicity of the new substance was up to 5-8 times higher than was the toxicity of Substance 33. The result depended on whether the skin-resorptive or the intravenous test was used. According to senior engineer Vladimir Uglev, who was the assistant of Kirpichev, the long time military chemists in Military Unit 61469 didn’t believe it. They only started to take this agent more seriously when they conducted their own laboratory tests with animals. Old jealousies didn’t allow them to recognize the importance of this discovery. However, Director Ivan Martynov immediately sensed the perspectives of this agent and took measures to support Kirpichev’s work, showing his personal interest. With his persistency he prompted the Central Committee of CPSU to take a decision to promote such agents.

This work was granted top priority and a few people were given clearance to become familiarized with it. This of course didn’t stop the military specialists from trying in every possible way to compromise it or break it. Things became more complicated in the winter of 1977 when they found that this agent was crystallizing in containers at temperatures below -10 Celsius. The problem was solved by adding some N,N-dimethylformamid to the pure agent. Even though this agent was diluted a bit by this solvent, its toxicity was extremely high, and GOSNIIOKhT tried to push it through the standard military field tests, with the goals of developing the technology of its production and getting it formally accepted as a chemical agent of Soviet Army. Petr Kirpichev’s group then synthesized and tested analogs of agent A-230

     F     
    /
CH3O-P=O             Agent A-232     
    \     
     N=C(CH3)-N(C2H5)2       

    F   
   /
C2H5O-P=O            Agent A-234     
   \       
    N=C(CH3)-N(C2H5)2

The agent A-232 has the same toxicity as Substance 33, though it is much more volatile than Substance 33 and agent A-230. Its stability against moisture is lower than both these agents. Kirpichev synthesized and tested the ethoxy-analog of agent A-234 and ultra highly toxic solid derivatives of agent A-230 and A-232 where the amidin radical was replaced by a guanidine radical. Their codenames are A-242 and A-262, respectively:"

[gringo]

     Well done for proving my point. Where is the evidence of Novichok use? You haven't posted any because there is none. You have posted stuff from the 1970's and Bellingcat(f=#?ing Bellingcat) but not what should be simple. Evidence of Novichok use.
     You cannot even point to it's mention by the OPCW, as I knew you couldn't, and everything that you posted is an admission of, whilst simultaneously acting as a distraction from, the fact that there is no evidence; just assertions. These assertions can be dismissed on those grounds that you have previously identified, so you are correct about something.
     Bellingcat's report on Ian Henderson has already been debunked and you really expose that your geopolitical knowledge amounts to a quick google search. If you followed and understood events in real time then you would know that Ian Henderson was in fact on the FFM team and that he has since been joined by other whistle blowers. Jose Bustani has also supported and joined them. Bustani is the former head of the OPCW forced from his post by John Bolton, former US National Security advisor but more widely known as a war criminal. Look that up and it may open your eyes to Western government interference in and corruption of bodies like the OPCW. You choose not to see the truth, David, because it is uncomfortable and you prefer comforting lies. 
     There is plenty of in depth reportage of the OPCW Douma scandal and that you chose MI6 front and former underwear salesman Eliot Higgins(aka Bellingcat) is telling. Higgins is an embarrassment and his "investigations" always, by massive coincidence, support the UK gov narrative. If you knew anything about world politics and followed these events actively then you would be embarrassed to quote Higgins.
    If you were knowledgeable about any of this, David, then you would discuss rather than post links to information that doesn't have even a tenuous connection with events.
    Can you post a link to the OPCW or even the Porton Down scientists claiming Novichok use?
    No distractions or irrelevant essays talking of testing 50 years ago. No idiotic Bellingcat propaganda thinly disguised as investigations.
    Can you link or quote an official finding of Novicho use?
     
     

[David1819]

     Well done for proving my point.
     

What point? You claimed Novitchok was invented by western intelligence. That drivel of yours is now up in smoke. I already demonstrated how Novichok was used in Salisbury, You only need to go several pages back on this thread. 

[David1819]

“Federal Republic of Germany confirm that the biomarkers of the cholinesterase inhibitor found in Mr Navalny’s blood and urine samples have similar structural characteristics as the toxic chemicals belonging to schedules 1.A.14 and 1.A.15 “

https://www.opcw.org/media-centre/news/2020/10/opcw-issues-report-technical-assistance-requested-germany

https://www.opcw.org/sites/default/files/documents/2019/12/s-1820-2019%28e%29.pdf

1.A.15 is Methyl-(bis(diethylamino)methylene)phosphonamidofluoridate which is a Novichok type agent.

The reports list the actual chemical nomenclature name for the Novichok agent. It seems gringo made a rush to judgment. Specifics are very important, It would very unprofessional to use an umbrella term like Novichok that applies to a family of agents. Absence of the term Novichok seems to be foundation of another one of gringos conspiracy theories which is now also up in smoke.

[Steve_uk]

     Well done for proving my point. Where is the evidence of Novichok use? You haven't posted any because there is none. You have posted stuff from the 1970's and Bellingcat(f=#?ing Bellingcat) but not what should be simple. Evidence of Novichok use.
     You cannot even point to it's mention by the OPCW, as I knew you couldn't, and everything that you posted is an admission of, whilst simultaneously acting as a distraction from, the fact that there is no evidence; just assertions. These assertions can be dismissed on those grounds that you have previously identified, so you are correct about something.
     Bellingcat's report on Ian Henderson has already been debunked and you really expose that your geopolitical knowledge amounts to a quick google search. If you followed and understood events in real time then you would know that Ian Henderson was in fact on the FFM team and that he has since been joined by other whistle blowers. Jose Bustani has also supported and joined them. Bustani is the former head of the OPCW forced from his post by John Bolton, former US National Security advisor but more widely known as a war criminal. Look that up and it may open your eyes to Western government interference in and corruption of bodies like the OPCW. You choose not to see the truth, David, because it is uncomfortable and you prefer comforting lies. 
     There is plenty of in depth reportage of the OPCW Douma scandal and that you chose MI6 front and former underwear salesman Eliot Higgins(aka Bellingcat) is telling. Higgins is an embarrassment and his "investigations" always, by massive coincidence, support the UK gov narrative. If you knew anything about world politics and followed these events actively then you would be embarrassed to quote Higgins.
    If you were knowledgeable about any of this, David, then you would discuss rather than post links to information that doesn't have even a tenuous connection with events.
    Can you post a link to the OPCW or even the Porton Down scientists claiming Novichok use?
    No distractions or irrelevant essays talking of testing 50 years ago. No idiotic Bellingcat propaganda thinly disguised as investigations.
    Can you link or quote an official finding of Novicho use?
     
   

I'm sick of your "I know something that you don't know" approach. Nobody but a fool believes Russia had nothing to do with the Skripals or the Navalny poisonings. Just because Porton Down scientists cannot definitively trace the nerve agent back to a Russian laboratory does not preclude the strong probability that it emanated from Russia.  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43377698

[David1819]

I'm sick of your "I know something that you don't know" approach. Nobody but a fool believes Russia had nothing to do with the Skripals or the Navalny poisonings. Just because Porton Down scientists cannot definitively trace the nerve agent back to a Russian laboratory does not preclude the strong probability that it emanated from Russia.  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43377698

Gringo has made an idiot of himself here. He seems to have assumed that Novichok is a single specific agent and thus should be mentioned as such by the OPCW. When in reality Novichok is an umbrella term for a whole family of 3rd generation agents produced in the USSR and the Russian federation.

What Gringo has failed to realise is that OPCW has stated Navalny was poisoned with - Methyl(bis(diethylamino)methylene)phosphonamidofluoridate. That substance is a Novichok type agent. 

[gringo]

What point? You claimed Novitchok was invented by western intelligence. That drivel of yours is now up in smoke. I already demonstrated how Novichok was used in Salisbury, You only need to go several pages back on this thread.

   The point that the whole Novichok narrative is an invention of Western intelligence is demonstrated by your inability to post any evidence of it's use by Russia from the OPCW or Porton Down or any other source. It is well known how and when Novichok was developed and where. This is not at issue. Perhaps my wording could have been clearer but it is obvious what I was referring to.
    You haven't demonstrated how Novichok was used in Salisbury for the simple reason that it wasn't and there is no official statement or evidence to back up your claim.

    There is plenty of in depth discussion and analysis of the ever evolving and increasingly farcical UK govt. propaganda on this. A good starting point is here;

     https://www.theblogmire.com/category/skripal-case/ 

    where blogger and Salisbury resident Rob Slane followed and dissected events from the beginning. A lot of in depth reading if you want to get to the bottom of the Salisbury incident and read the blog from the start you will see the inconsistencies in the official account. There are many places where the incident is discussed intelligently, but you just read those sites that appear to confirm your initial knee jerk conclusions.
     Your view of the world is narrow and refuses to accommodate any information which challenges this. The UK/US and their vassals are not the benign forces that you believe. They are currently aggressively attacking, threatening and sanctioning any country that refuses to bow to their supremacy. The Novichok scam is part of that policy attempting to isolate and side-line Russia. If you cannot see Western aggression in the world then you are deliberately looking the other way.
    The rest of the World is consistent in agreeing in surveys that the US is the biggest threat to World peace. Not Russia or China or Iran or whoever the warmongers latest bogey man is. The US. It shames us as a country to be allied with and run by the war criminals currently rampaging their way around the world.
    Russia, China, Iran, Venezuela, Syria and others are are successfully resisting the hegemon and all of these allegations by Western intelligence (Iran sponsoring terrorism, Russia poisoning with Novichok, Assad chemical weapon attacks)are inventions by the same people who brought you the Iraqi's throwing babies from incubators(Gulf War 1), Saddam's WMD(Gulf War 2), Qhaddafi slaughtering his own citizens(Libya) and on and on.
     You are still falling for the same lies from the same liars in order to gain your support for the latest war of aggression. Be more sceptical, David.

[gringo]

Gringo has made an idiot of himself here. He seems to have assumed that Novichok is a single specific agent and thus should be mentioned as such by the OPCW. When in reality Novichok is an umbrella term for a whole family of 3rd generation agents produced in the USSR and the Russian federation.

What Gringo has failed to realise is that OPCW has stated Navalny was poisoned with - Methyl(bis(diethylamino)methylene)phosphonamidofluoridate. That substance is a Novichok type agent. 

   I am fully aware of what Novichok is. A family of organophosphate nerve agents. The OPCW have not stated Novichok use by Russia.
    The OPCW were only asked to confirm Porton Down findings rather than conducting a full FFM (fact finding mission where they would collect samples with full chain of evidence custody). The agents that they were confirming are confidential at the UK's behest.
    The agent that was detected in Navalny was not a Novichok. If it were he would be dead, as would the Skripals and many others who came into contact.
    Novichok type agent is a not very subtle way of saying it wasn't a novichok. Novichok type agent doesn't inform or mean anything concrete. That is why that form of words is used by others reporting official findings.
    Novichok isn't mentioned by the OPCW because it wasn't used.
    You still believe the WMD lie so it is hardly surprising that you also believe this lie, coincidentally told by the same people.
   

[gringo]

    Distractions aside, it is becoming clear that the West, led by US/UK/Israel are losing in their attempt at World domination to a collective and collaborative response by those threatened nations and are powerless to intervene militarily.
    The murder of Iranian General Qassem Soleimani and the Iranian response demonstrated the impotence of the Outlaw Empire to achieve their goals of regime change via military means. To recap General Soleimani was assassinated in January of this year by the US in Iraq whilst visiting at the request of the Iraqi prime minister. Not in a war zone or on a battlefield but on a diplomatic mission. The American attack was not only criminal but also cowardly. Also killed in this missile attack was Abu Muhandis an Iraqi and commander of the PMF militia officially part of the Iraqi military.
    Iran's response was measured and game changing. Their missile attack on US Iraqi bases was deadly accurate and demonstrated that Iranian missile technology was able to accurately target within a few metres radius from hundreds of miles away. Suddenly US servicemen for the first time in decades were hiding in shelters helpless to prevent the attacks. That was with a dozen or so missiles. They have thousands of them. Iran demonstrated that any attack on them would come at an unaffordable cost to the US. Every US base in the Middle East would be destroyed should the US attack. Since then the US have been leaving their bases in Iraq because they are not defendable. Russia have made clear that Iran would come under their nuclear umbrella should they be attacked with nuclear weapons.
     After the missile attack Trump claimed that no US servicemen were hurt and that a devastating response would occur if any US service personnel were hurt. Over the following weeks the US announced injuries from the attacks. First they admitted to 11 injured then 34 then 50, finally settling on over 100. A large number of Purple Hearts have been issued to personnel injured in the attacks since. Purple Hearts are given to those injured or killed. US are impotent along with the UK and are raging hence the idiotic propaganda and provocations.
     Israel would love to attack Iran but would be decimated and need Uncle Sam to attack for them.
     Prior to this, in June of 2019, the Iranians shot down a US drone. Not just any old drone, however, but a RQ Global Hawk surveillance drone. $200 billion worth of drone, bristling with state of the art surveillance equipment, the size of a passenger jet, one of only two that the US had. It was flying 11 miles high beyond, or so the US thought, Iranian air defence. One warning not heeded, one missile and the US stock of Global Hawks was halved.
     The statement put out by the IRGC after this was even more chilling to the US. Flying with the drone was another jet with US personnel on board. Quite what was their purpose that day can only be speculated but the Iranians made clear that they knew of the other plane and chose not to shoot it down because there were "35 warm bodies on board."
     Not only is it plain that they could but also that they knew that one was a drone and one had 35 people on board. How did they know? There are a number of possibilities, none of them good from the US military point of view.
     The trade sanctions being applied everywhere and the abuse by the US of the dollar position as world reserve currency are the only response that they have now, along with their groundless accusations of poisonings/chemical attacks, but this has only driven the target countries together and made the fall of the US empire a matter of time. When not if. It is a case of bringing the Empire down incrementally and avoiding hot war which could soon escalate badly, especially with the psychopaths who conduct US foreign policy.
     This appears to be the strategy of the "Axis of Resistance" and for the sake of humanity we should hope that they manage to do so successfully and end the criminal rampage of the West before it reaches its inevitable conclusion.
     

[Steve_uk]

    Distractions aside, it is becoming clear that the West, led by US/UK/Israel are losing in their attempt at World domination to a collective and collaborative response by those threatened nations and are powerless to intervene militarily.
    The murder of Iranian General Qassem Soleimani and the Iranian response demonstrated the impotence of the Outlaw Empire to achieve their goals of regime change via military means. To recap General Soleimani was assassinated in January of this year by the US in Iraq whilst visiting at the request of the Iraqi prime minister. Not in a war zone or on a battlefield but on a diplomatic mission. The American attack was not only criminal but also cowardly. Also killed in this missile attack was Abu Muhandis an Iraqi and commander of the PMF militia officially part of the Iraqi military.
    Iran's response was measured and game changing. Their missile attack on US Iraqi bases was deadly accurate and demonstrated that Iranian missile technology was able to accurately target within a few metres radius from hundreds of miles away. Suddenly US servicemen for the first time in decades were hiding in shelters helpless to prevent the attacks. That was with a dozen or so missiles. They have thousands of them. Iran demonstrated that any attack on them would come at an unaffordable cost to the US. Every US base in the Middle East would be destroyed should the US attack. Since then the US have been leaving their bases in Iraq because they are not defendable. Russia have made clear that Iran would come under their nuclear umbrella should they be attacked with nuclear weapons.
     After the missile attack Trump claimed that no US servicemen were hurt and that a devastating response would occur if any US service personnel were hurt. Over the following weeks the US announced injuries from the attacks. First they admitted to 11 injured then 34 then 50, finally settling on over 100. A large number of Purple Hearts have been issued to personnel injured in the attacks since. Purple Hearts are given to those injured or killed. US are impotent along with the UK and are raging hence the idiotic propaganda and provocations.
     Israel would love to attack Iran but would be decimated and need Uncle Sam to attack for them.
     Prior to this, in June of 2019, the Iranians shot down a US drone. Not just any old drone, however, but a RQ Global Hawk surveillance drone. $200 billion worth of drone, bristling with state of the art surveillance equipment, the size of a passenger jet, one of only two that the US had. It was flying 11 miles high beyond, or so the US thought, Iranian air defence. One warning not heeded, one missile and the US stock of Global Hawks was halved.
     The statement put out by the IRGC after this was even more chilling to the US. Flying with the drone was another jet with US personnel on board. Quite what was their purpose that day can only be speculated but the Iranians made clear that they knew of the other plane and chose not to shoot it down because there were "35 warm bodies on board."
     Not only is it plain that they could but also that they knew that one was a drone and one had 35 people on board. How did they know? There are a number of possibilities, none of them good from the US military point of view.
     The trade sanctions being applied everywhere and the abuse by the US of the dollar position as world reserve currency are the only response that they have now, along with their groundless accusations of poisonings/chemical attacks, but this has only driven the target countries together and made the fall of the US empire a matter of time. When not if. It is a case of bringing the Empire down incrementally and avoiding hot war which could soon escalate badly, especially with the psychopaths who conduct US foreign policy.
     This appears to be the strategy of the "Axis of Resistance" and for the sake of humanity we should hope that they manage to do so successfully and end the criminal rampage of the West before it reaches its inevitable conclusion.
   

This is a selective piece filled with half-truths.

Was Iran's response measured..https://youtu.be/tcFn6KsxOgo

The cost I have of the Northrop Grumman RQ-4 Global Hawk is $131 million plus $19000 per flying hour.

[David1819]

   I am fully aware of what Novichok is. A family of organophosphate nerve agents. The OPCW have not stated Novichok use by Russia.
    The OPCW were only asked to confirm Porton Down findings rather than conducting a full FFM (fact finding mission where they would collect samples with full chain of evidence custody). The agents that they were confirming are confidential at the UK's behest.
    The agent that was detected in Navalny was not a Novichok. If it were he would be dead, as would the Skripals and many others who came into contact.
    Novichok type agent is a not very subtle way of saying it wasn't a novichok. Novichok type agent doesn't inform or mean anything concrete. That is why that form of words is used by others reporting official findings.
    Novichok isn't mentioned by the OPCW because it wasn't used.
    You still believe the WMD lie so it is hardly surprising that you also believe this lie, coincidentally told by the same people.
   

“Federal Republic of Germany confirm that the biomarkers of the cholinesterase inhibitor found in Mr Navalny’s blood and urine samples have similar structural characteristics as the toxic chemicals belonging to schedules 1.A.14 and 1.A.15 “

A Novichok agent is mentioned by OPCW via its IUPAC name and CAS identification number, The same substance mentioned by the russian chemist Vil Mirzayanov I quoted from yesterday. Now are you going to put your hands up and admit you were wrong (yet again) or continue digging a deeper hole for yourself? 

And don't make out that you know anything about Novichok agents, it was only until yesterday you realized where it came from. LMAO