Russia - worrying?

[maggie]

58,000 is not a huge death toll.  The North Vietnamese used terrorist tactics against South Vietnam.  They did some of the same things the Taliban are doing.  They killed thousands of teachers and other members of the intelligentsia. They kidnapped people from villages to force them to fight.  They killed anyone who opposed them. The US aid was to end this and to some extent it did bu only after we wiped out the Vietcong. The RVN was defeated in 1975 by a conventional invasion by North Vietnam.  The Chinese and Soviets poured equipment into North Vietnam, helped them build a massive conventional force and the US in contrast abided by the 1973 peace terms.  We stopped giving them military aid, fuel etc.  They launched a limited invasion to see if the US would respond.  We failed to use out air power to route them like we could have done and we failed to provide fuel, weapons etc.  The test was for a simple reason they didn't want to lose their entire military to us. Our inaction convinced North Vietnam we would not respond to a large scale invasion.  They launched it and they took over South Vietnam.  The only thing the US did was fly out those that we could and took in any refugees who could manage to escape on their own.  They took over and brutalized the population of South Vietnam, took their wealth and freedom.  Undoubtedly they would have been bette roff under RVN rule but no one would take a stand to help them.  The only reason the DRV had the power to take over was because China and the Soviets supplied them with so many weapons or they never would have been able to do it.  Today Vietnam has a mixed economy but that doesn't help those they robbed, killed, or brutalized and they still have a tolitarian government today not a democracy.

When one side is using force the only way to counter it is with force of your own.  If we didn't stand up in Korea then the people of South Korea would be just as miserable as those in North Korea.  The same troublemakers who armed North Vietnam armed North Korea and blessed their invasion.  Because we aided South Korea those in South Korea live in a very prosperous country with a strong democratic government.

The difference between what happened in Korea and Vietnam is that in 1950 we refused to allow the North to take over while in 1975 we allowed North Vietnam to invade with impunity.  The ones who suffered from that decision were those living in South Vietnam.   

People can make up any garbage they want at its core what it amounted to was the leaders of the US government didn't feel like spending more of our blood and treasure for the benefit of the people living in South Vietnam.

Just like the Allies stabbed the Poles in the back and refused force the USSR to allow the Free Poles to take over in Poland after WWII.  The Free Poles even fought to liberate France and in exchange they got sold out. The USSR was allowed to steal land from Poland that they took over in 1941 when they carved up Poland with Germany and started the whole mess and the Allies allowed it.

When the country being subjugated is some country other than yours it is easy to say who cares about them- let them live under a horrible regime with no freedoms too bad for them. 

That's really what it amount to- people saying too bad for the Syrians and Iraqis coming under ISIS rule and too bad for the Syrians being brutalized by Assad.  We the World who pledged to stop human rights violations will do nothing because we don't want to spend the effort involved.

We will stand by as Russia helps Assad stay in power by brutalizing and killing those who want democracy and will stand by as Isis kills people and to make it see like we do have a heart what we will do is take in refugees if they can manage to survive to make it to the West- that is how we will be charitable.

Evil wins when good men do nothing.  Putin and other bad men are doing things but the good men are doing token things that amount to nothing.

Of course it's not right for anyone to be subjugated to living under cruel dictators but the establishment of the west thought it was fine until it had served their purpose and these dictators became a threat to the west via nuclear weapons etc. Thy had to be removed and as usual it was the ordinary people who suffered and are still suffering and most of the establishment would turn a blind eye to their suffering even now if normal decent people had not refused to accept it.  The people in Syria. Iraq etc. are suffering appallingly and those managing to get out are refugees, not migrants they are in fear of their lives and in fear for the lives of their children...  we should welcome them and give them places of safety as they are human beings like ourselves.

If 58,000 isn't a big death toll then why did the US make such a fuss about it?  I am sure many more vietcong and ordinary Vietnamese people died anyway as is always the way.  People in the US have no idea what it's like to have foreign troops in their land it is much easier to fight wars in other peoples countries.

[scipio_usmc]

The west cobbled together tribes to make countries after the 1st and 2nd WW, we were happy for them to be kept in control by cruel dictators, once the dictators fall as in Yugoslavia old resentments come to the fore again. 
We meddled in many countries in the empire which led to wars after independence, however dreadful it is people have a right to choosing their own destiny ie. governments and cultures and way of life just as we have worked our own out over hundreds of years.
Keeping people down only causes more trouble in the long run..  We fought many wars over hundreds of years before we sorted out our borders and became more tolerant and democratic.  War is never an answer imo, Europe paid a heavy price for war and ,any who served in the II WW became pacifists after their experience serving in the services. The US doesn't understand this because they are a young country in comparison and have never suffered with a war on their own soil, they prefer to fight their wars in other people's countries.  imo

Taking your claims at face value the US should have refused to aid the Allies in WWI and II and should have left things up to the people of Europe.  Even before our military involvement we were providing weapons, fuel and food to the Allies to allow them to fight.  If we didn't provide such aid then WWI would basically have ended in a standstill.  WWII could have been even worse than it was because Germany would have hand more land and power. As it is Germany and Japan would never would have been defeated without American aid anyway.

In the meantime you are comparing past European colonization with modern world efforts to establish democratic governments which are 2 different things.  European colonization was about exploitation of the resources and people of the colonies.  When the cost began to exceed the gains they fled.  Europeans government still have the same mindset.  They are interested today only in economic profits.  They can't wait to do business in Iran so want the sanctions lifted and don't care how horrible the government is just like they didn't care how horrible Saddam was and did so much business with him. 

The only country consistently willing to spill our blood and treasure for liberty is the US but our leaders are schizophrenic because we have elections and different leaders at different times.  If we take the lead and do it some other countries are then willing to get involved and help as well but only if we take the lead and do the bulk of the work.  That is why the US is called the leader of the free world.  When the leader of the free world is lead by morons like Obama the Free World does nothing and evil prevails.

 

 

[maggie]

Taking your claims at face value the US should have refused to aid the Allies in WWI and II and should have left things up to the people of Europe.  Even before our military involvement we were providing weapons, fuel and food to the Allies to allow them to fight.  If we didn't provide such aid then WWI would basically have ended in a standstill.  WWII could have been even worse than it was because Germany would have hand more land and power. As it is Germany and Japan would never would have been defeated without American aid anyway.

In the meantime you are comparing past European colonization with modern world efforts to establish democratic governments which are 2 different things.  European colonization was about exploitation of the resources and people of the colonies.  When the cost began to exceed the gains they fled.  Europeans government still have the same mindset.  They are interested today only in economic profits.  They can't wait to do business in Iran so want the sanctions lifted and don't care how horrible the government is just like they didn't care how horrible Saddam was and did so much business with him. 

The only country consistently willing to spill our blood and treasure for liberty is the US but our leaders are schizophrenic because we have elections and different leaders at different times.  If we take the lead and do it some other countries are then willing to get involved and help as well but only if we take the lead and do the bulk of the work.  That is why the US is called the leader of the free world.  When the leader of the free world is lead by morons like Obama the Free World does nothing and evil prevails.

 

 

The US is the worst offender scipio you cannot claim the high ground on this. 

[scipio_usmc]

Of course it's not right for anyone to be subjugated to living under cruel dictators but the establishment of the west thought it was fine until it had served their purpose and these dictators became a threat to the west via nuclear weapons etc. Thy had to be removed and as usual it was the ordinary people who suffered and are still suffering and most of the establishment would turn a blind eye to their suffering even now if normal decent people had not refused to accept it.  The people in Syria. Iraq etc. are suffering appallingly and those managing to get out are refugees, not migrants they are in fear of their lives and in fear for the lives of their children...  we should welcome them and give them places of safety as they are human beings like ourselves.

If 58,000 isn't a big death toll then why did the US make such a fuss about it?  I am sure many more vietcong and ordinary Vietnamese people died anyway as is always the way.  People in the US have no idea what it's like to have foreign troops in their land it is much easier to fight wars in other peoples countries.

The Vietnam anti-war crowd made a big deal about it. Popular fiction is that they got us to withdraw from Vietnam but the reality we did some of our heaviest fighting while the anti-war crowd was sounding off. We left Vietnam only after a Peace Treaty was signed.

What pisses many off is that the US did nothing in 1975 to save the RVN.  Our airpower could have crippled the North Vietnamese invasion like we did in past invasion attempts.  Our deaths were for nothing because we didn't do anything to protect them in 1975. 

Many are pissed off about Iraq for the same reason.  Our efforts to establish stability in Iraq were for nothing because Obama withdrew and has done nothing to help get rid of Isis. He won't even arm the Kurds. 

It would be the equivalent of withdrawing from Europe in 1945, allowing the Nazis to come to power again, taking over Europe and this time saying we won't do anything.  Those who lost loved ones fighting the Nazis would be pissed that the loss was ultimately for nothing.

[ngb1066]

The US is the worst offender scipio you cannot claim the high ground on this.

I agree.  The drivel posted about Vietnam really winds me up.  Fortunately the heroic Vietnamese forces defeated the might of the USA and that was a cause for celebration the world over .  I remember the final victory in 1975 very well - I was in hospital at the time and it really cheered me up.  The USA acted like the criminal gangsters they have so often been in the international arena, but they got a good hiding for once.

 

[ngb1066]

The Vietnam anti-war crowd made a big deal about it. Popular fiction is that they got us to withdraw from Vietnam but the reality we did some of our heaviest fighting while the anti-war crowd was sounding off. We left Vietnam only after a Peace Treaty was signed.

What pisses many off is that the US did nothing in 1975 to save the RVN.  Our airpower could have crippled the North Vietnamese invasion like we did in past invasion attempts.  Our deaths were for nothing because we didn't do anything to protect them in 1975. 

Many are pissed off about Iraq for the same reason.  Our efforts to establish stability in Iraq were for nothing because Obama withdrew and has done nothing to help get rid of Isis. He won't even arm the Kurds. 

It would be the equivalent of withdrawing from Europe in 1945, allowing the Nazis to come to power again, taking over Europe and this time saying we won't do anything.  Those who lost loved ones fighting the Nazis would be pissed that the loss was ultimately for nothing.

The Scipio world view from the far right american perspective!  Fortunately many of us in Eurpoe, possibly the majority, hold a very different view.

[scipio_usmc]

The US is the worst offender scipio you cannot claim the high ground on this.

Nonsense. What economic gain did the US get from WWI? The US spent a bundle on our own military efforts and ended up paying for much of the materials given to other countries, the only country to pay back its WWI debt was Finland. 

WWII was even worse we wrote off most of the lend lease bills requiring countries to pay cents on the dollar.  Our own expenditures were so high that we had a massive national debt for the first time and had to raise income taxes to very high level.

The whole reason Japan attacked us is because we stopped selling oil, rubber etc to Japan and we were the largest supplier of such in the World.  We enacted the embargo because we didn't like their abuses in China and stopped supplying them with anything they could use in their war effort.   This is the complete opposite of how Europe acted at that time.

The UK and France divied up the Ottoman Empire after WWI to enjoy the economic spoils.  What did the US take over and steal the resources from?

After WWII the US loaned money to Europe to allow Europe to rebuild themselves as opposed to taking Europe satellite nations totally dependent upon us for manufactured goods and resources.  The same is true of Japan, and South Korea.  We did such a good job the US went from being a creditor nation to a debtor nation. We didn't create markets to sell our good in like Europe did.

The US didn't install puppet regimes either was established democratic elected governments in Germany, Japan and South Korea just like we did in Afghanistan and Iraq. Did the US take over the oil resourced of Iraq?  Nope we let them contract with European oil companies. We didn't impose any obligations.

Some Europeans live in some fantasy World where they try to make themselves feel better with the notion the US economically benefited from the wars we have engaged in, in the name of democracy but such is pure fantasy. Economically these wars have cost us considerable amounts. Our post WWII efforts to rebuild our allies have been so successful we went from being a net exporter to importer.  That is the complete opposite of taking financial advantage of conquests.

     

[scipio_usmc]

I agree.  The drivel posted about Vietnam really winds me up.  Fortunately the heroic Vietnamese forces defeated the might of the USA and that was a cause for celebration the world over .  I remember the final victory in 1975 very well - I was in hospital at the time and it really cheered me up.  The USA acted like the criminal gangsters they have so often been in the international arena, but they got a good hiding for once.

 

Posts like this really make me wonder about you.  You sound like a communist or someone else who can't stand the US and immaturely is happy when others suffer.

The North Vietnamese didn't defeat the US.  The US military left Vietnam in 1973.  The extent of our military presence was Marine Security guards at the embassy and a handful of paper pushers. 

For years they terrorized South Vietnamese people.  They invaded and killed South Vietnamese.  The few Americans were able to leave.  Cheering communists killing non-communist Vietnamese, stealing their property and brutalizing them is what someone with mental problems would do.

Are you also mad that the North Koreans were prevented form establishing communist control over the entire Peninsula?  I know liberals, communist sympathizers who feel exactly that way they absurdly suggest South Korea would be better off under North Korean control.

[ngb1066]

Posts like this really make me wonder about you. [No need to wonder!] You sound like a communist or someone else who can't stand the US [What if I am?] and immaturely is happy when others suffer.[I certainly am not happy when others suffer, which is why I have consistently opposed US foreign policy]
The North Vietnamese didn't defeat the US.  The US military left Vietnam in 1973.  The extent of our military presence was Marine Security guards at the embassy and a handful of paper pushers.  [The US was soundly thrashed, as you well know]
For years they terrorized South Vietnamese people.  They invaded and killed South Vietnamese. [Utter rubbish.  The terrorising was conducted by the US and their puppets in the South.  The liberating forces had massive support of the people of Vietnam, both in the North and the South] The few Americans were able to leave.  Cheering communists killing non-communist Vietnamese, stealing their property and brutalizing them is what someone with mental problems would do. [I agree, but it did not happen]

[scipio_usmc]

The Scipio world view from the far right american perspective!  Fortunately many of us in Eurpoe, possibly the majority, hold a very different view.

Those who hold such views are quite ignorant.  In a debate over the facts you will be exposed as such quite easily.  But then again the same people who hold these views are the ones who don't care at all that the entire Christian population is being killed or driven out of Syria and Iraq.  It's too bad for them. The US helping establish democracy is called human rights abuses is your bizzarro World and the actions of groups like Isis heroic.  It is really mind boggling that people can hold such irrational views but that helps people to sleep at night...

Some people are so immature they can't stand it that the UK is no longer the World's major power.  They can't stand it knowing that that without US aid the UK could not have done anything to liberate Europe.  They can't stand it that the US is so much stronger than other nations.  They are so jealous of the US they want to pretend the worst about the US.

It's the ultimate immaturity to praise killers just because one is so anti-US that anytime one does something the US is against that one applauds it.  I have a friend who was a Vietnamese Boat child and he has a different take because the invasion actually affect him.  It's easy for heartless people to not care about things that don't affect them.

It's even more immature to pretend they defeated a US military that wasn't even there.  It's just as bogus as the claims that ISIS defeated the US military in Iraq though our military wasn't there.

[maggie]

Those who hold such views are quite ignorant.  In a debate over the facts you will be exposed as such quite easily.  But then again the same people who hold these views are the ones who don't care at all that the entire Christian population is being killed or driven out of Syria and Iraq.  It's too bad for them. The US helping establish democracy is called human rights abuses is your bizzarro World and the actions of groups like Isis heroic.  It is really mind boggling that people can hold such irrational views but that helps people to sleep at night...

Some people are so immature they can't stand it that the UK is no longer the World's major power.  They can't stand it knowing that that without US aid the UK could not have done anything to liberate Europe.  They can't stand it that the US is so much stronger than other nations.  They are so jealous of the US they want to pretend the worst about the US.

It's the ultimate immaturity to praise killers just because one is so anti-US that anytime one does something the US is against that one applauds it.  I have a friend who was a Vietnamese Boat child and he has a different take because the invasion actually affect him.  It's easy for heartless people to not care about things that don't affect them.

It's even more immature to pretend they defeated a US military that wasn't even there.  It's just as bogus as the claims that ISIS defeated the US military in Iraq though our military wasn't there.

It is irrational to accuse people who don't like US meddling in the world of not caring about humanity, it is the US meddling which has caused so many problems and so much blood shed in the world the fact that they cause trouble and then try to fix it again to their own advantage is recognised by many.  People have a right to their own self determination and if they had been allowed to have that much of what is happening now would not have occurred.
US only care about countries who have something they want ie  a foothold in the region or oil....  no doubt about that.

[scipio_usmc]

"Posts like this really make me wonder about you. You sound like a communist or someone else who can't stand the US"

No need to wonder! What if I am?

That bias would explain the irraitional claims.

"and immaturely is happy when others suffer."
I certainly am not happy when others suffer, which is why I have consistently opposed US foreign policy

Saving people from horrible dictators stops suffering.  What you espouse increases suffering. Your bias against the US results in viewing things the complete opposite of reality. 

The communists took power in North Vietnam by force they were not elected in fair elections.  They have never held a single fair election they have bogus elections where the only choices they have are communists.  They took over South Vietnam by force not by any legitimate method.   

"The North Vietnamese didn't defeat the US.  The US military left Vietnam in 1973.  The extent of our military presence was Marine Security guards at the embassy and a handful of paper pushers."

The US was soundly thrashed, as you well know

This is where you bias comes into play you hate the US so much you WISH we were thrashed and since we weren't you will just pretend it.

The US never lost a battle and the casualties inflicted on the enemy were always considerably higher than we lost.

The Vietcong were wiped out.  The only Vietcong units that remained were in name only they named some  North Vietnamese units Vietcong regiments. They were simply NVA units with such designation. 

They gave up on the idea of relying on the Vietcong and launched numerous conventional attacks in 1971-72 all of which were decisively defeated. The RVN forces thrashing the NVA with the aid of our airpower and planners. The casualties suffered by the RVN forces was way less than they were inflicting.  That was why the North Vietnamese eventually agreed to the Peace deal. They coudl not make any progress all their attacks were beaten back with high losses.

They used the post peace deal to build a massive conventional force.  They were no longer fighting so no longer suffering losses.  They were training men and were being supplied by the USSR and China.  The military aid during this period was more than during the war period combined the Chinese aid in particular skyrocketed.  This was a direct violation of the Treaty but they didn't care.  The US abided by it thus stopped providing fuel, ammunition etc.  Instead of helping the RVN ot keep pace we simply stuck to the deal.

When the DRV attacked we should have countered because the treaty was null at that point.  But we stuck by it and left them high and dry.  Then a general invasion was launched including with tanks and refugees filled the roads preventing the RVN units form being able to get to where they needed to go.  They had fuel issues anyway.  US airpower could have cut the attack apart like we did past conventional invasions which you ridiculously suggest amounted to us being thrashed.  I don't know how killing so many enemy and the feeling amounts to being thrashed...  In any event we did nothing and doing nothing is why they won they didn't defeat us we weren't there.

The South Vietnamese civilians were fleeing attackers not liberators.  They were filling choppers to get to the Philippines to get away from attackers not liberators.  They were being shot dead by attackers not liberators.  Those who remained after the takeover were brutalized by attackers not liberators. 

Your version is a fantasy version fashioned around your hatred of America instead of reality.

"For years they terrorized South Vietnamese people.  They invaded and killed South Vietnamese."

Utter rubbish.  The terrorising was conducted by the US and their puppets in the South.

You either know nothing about Vietnam or you are so biased you are unwilling to admit the truth about the terrorist campaign that was conducted in South Vietnam.  Tens of thousands of the intelligentsia were murdered to undermine the government and make it easier for the communists to take over.  When those efforts all failed they then resorted to conventional attacks which also failed.  Their success came after the US left and stopped aiding South Vietnam.  The people of South Vietnam did not welcome the attackers they fled from them and tried to resist though they failed.  They didn't try to resist because they wanted to be attacked.

You praise violence so long as the violence is in the name of communism, against people you don't like or simply harms US interests and the only harm to US interest that wound up being served by taking over South Vietnam was the harm caused to the people living there who we considered friends.     

So at its core you applaud killing and attacking people because they were friends of the US.  That's incredibly immature.

The liberating forces had massive support of the people of Vietnam, both in the North and the South

If that were the case the invasion would not have been necessary.  Moreover they would have welcomed the attackers instead of trying to repel them and fleeing.  Your version is pure fantasy but fantasy spread by communists and leftist who hate the US and thus couldn't care less about reality.

"The few Americans were able to leave.  Cheering communists killing non-communist Vietnamese, stealing their property and brutalizing them is what someone with mental problems would do."
I agree, but it did not happen

It did happen. The communists killed large numbers of people in South Vietnam from the late 1950s to 1973 and then again late 1974-76.  Those political enemies they didn't kill they imprisoned and they destroyed the economy of South Vietnam including taking resources owned by people for the government's use.   Communism failed and they changed to a mixed economy like China which still has massive government control and there is still only one party in control of Vietnam it is not a democracy but rather a communist oligarchy with far less freedoms than are present in democracies.

This brings us full circle to one of the points made earlier.  People not actually living under these horrible regimes think they are great. If you had to live under such regime then your views would be different. 

I'm too honest to admit that abandoning Poland and the RVN was ultimately a good thing for the people of such countries. They were abandoned out of selfishness not charity. That is the same reason no one is doing crap about ISI it is about being too selfish to do what is right.

If people want to be selfish that is their right but be truthful about it don't make up BS excuses.

[David1819]

The US is the worst offender scipio you cannot claim the high ground on this.

how does the US make the worst offender? please elaborate

[David1819]

I agree.  The drivel posted about Vietnam really winds me up.  Fortunately the heroic Vietnamese forces defeated the might of the USA and that was a cause for celebration the world over .  I remember the final victory in 1975 very well - I was in hospital at the time and it really cheered me up.  The USA acted like the criminal gangsters they have so often been in the international arena, but they got a good hiding for once.

 

The South Vietnamese certainly where not celebrating.

[scipio_usmc]

It is irrational to accuse people who don't like US meddling in the world of not caring about humanity, it is the US meddling which has caused so many problems and so much blood shed in the world the fact that they cause trouble and then try to fix it again to their own advantage is recognised by many.  People have a right to their own self determination and if they had been allowed to have that much of what is happening now would not have occurred.
US only care about countries who have something they want ie  a foothold in the region or oil....  no doubt about that.

The US establishing democracies enables self-determination.  Attacking such efforts as being against self-determination is irrational.

The irrational views stem from refusing to face reality and instead looking at things through a biased prism that distorts.

The US should have allowed North Korea to swallow all of Korea, the US should have allowed the Communists to swallow all of Vietnam.  The US should have left dictators in Iraq and Afghanistan instead of establishing democracies....

Did you know that there is a long history of there being 3 very different regions of Vietnam and that this is why the French had it divided into 3 regions.  Did you know that the British were the ones who helped the French to regain control of Vietnam from the Japanese the US wanted to establish an independent country but the UK sides with their French that they should be restored to help justify them keeping possessions as well.  Did you know that the communists used force to take control of North Vietnam and they were fighting not only the French but other Vietnamese.  Did you know they got their weapons from foreign communist forces.  The foreign intervention that enabled the killing is the same characters who armed North Korea and enabled the killing.   Did you know that when the French pulled out that the lower areas were under control of the Vietnamese.   Did you know that the communists launched terrorists attacks throughout Vietnam to destabilize the government and try to get people to stop supporting the government and to thus result in the government collapsing so the communists could take over.  Did you know that the plan was to weaken the government through these efforts then resort to conventional military attacks on government forces. Did you know that after these conventional attacks started is when the US moved in airpower to use against North Vietnam.  Did you know the first US ground forces were used to protect US air bases from attacks because the South Vietnamese forces were too busy fighting invaders to do so.  Did you know the US finally approved US ground forces to go on offensive operations against the North Vietnam because a lot of the South Vietnamese forces would run away when attacked and leave their equipment behind just like the Iraqis did with ISIS.  The US
had forces paired up with the RVN forces to stabilize them and train them better just like we did in Iraq and Afghanistan.  We defended the population from the conventional attacks.  What we could not totally stop was the terrorist attacks only large military units from hurting the population. We took up defensive positions and freed up their forces to carry out offensive operations so they could try clearing enemy from their land. As they became more capable we reduced our ground units leaving them more responsibility for their own defense. 1970 forward we were in the supporting role almost exclusively. The major fighting was done by them with our forces simply helping with supply, training and air support. 

The ultimate argument of people critical of our policy is that we should have let the Chinese and Soviets sponsor a communist takeover.  They say we should have done the same in Korea instead of saving the ROK.  These are the same people who decided to do nothing in Syria and say we should just let Russia help Assad kill anyone who opposes his dictatorial rule. 

The intervention that causes all the problems is praised and welcomed instead of opposed.

The results of such is to support the evil and attack those who want to do good.