Author Topic: Russia - worrying?  (Read 140857 times)

0 Members and 5 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline David1819

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 12617
Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #210 on: March 10, 2015, 05:25:PM »
All statistics are open to interpretation and whichever spin you wish to put on them.

You could argue that Hitler killed approximately 11 million non-combatants, whereas Stalin only killed 8-9 million non combatants, thus making Hitler worse.........

That's rubbish. all the estimates are innocent people or prisoners of war.

Offline maggie

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13651
Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #211 on: March 10, 2015, 05:28:PM »
That's rubbish. all the estimates are innocent people or prisoners of war.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/mar/10/hitler-vs-stalin-who-killed-more/
Think this is interesting reading
« Last Edit: March 10, 2015, 05:34:PM by maggie »

Offline ngb1066

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5784
Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #212 on: March 10, 2015, 05:33:PM »


Stalin did many things Hitler did such as persecuted Jews.   Stalin did things to his own people that Hitler only did to foreigners.  Since Hilter killed more Jews and did so in a more systematic fashion his actions are highlighted while people ignore those of Stalin.

   

This is another outrageous calumny against the USSR.  Until Russian revolution anti jewish pogroms were common, in particular in the Ukraine.  One of the first decrees of the new Soviet government was to outlaw antisemitism.  There were never again anti jewish pogroms, save of course for those sanctioned by the Nazis in the Soviet territory they occupied from 1941.  In the USSR jews occupied senior positions in the government, the Communist Party and in the armed forces. 

It really beggars belief that not only do you suggest that the USSR had a policy of killing jews but they actually killed more jews than the 6 million generally accepted as the number of jews killed by the Nazis!

You need some serious re-education - and not by some rabid right wing American institution!

 

Offline David1819

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 12617
Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #213 on: March 10, 2015, 05:44:PM »
This is another outrageous calumny against the USSR.  Until Russian revolution anti jewish pogroms were common, in particular in the Ukraine.  One of the first decrees of the new Soviet government was to outlaw antisemitism.  There were never again anti jewish pogroms, save of course for those sanctioned by the Nazis in the Soviet territory they occupied from 1941.  In the USSR jews occupied senior positions in the government, the Communist Party and in the armed forces. 

It really beggars belief that not only do you suggest that the USSR had a policy of killing jews but they actually killed more jews than the 6 million generally accepted as the number of jews killed by the Nazis!

You need some serious re-education - and not by some rabid right wing American institution!

 

The USSR was not an anti-Semitic state no. But Stalin being extremely paranoid did have his moments and did purge Jews for being Jews

Offline scipio_usmc

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9502
Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #214 on: March 10, 2015, 05:47:PM »
As an American, you were obviously brought up to see both Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union as the greatest of evils.
There is certainly a case for that, with Stalin's regime actually killing far more people than Hitler's. Although Hitler's regime brought about the holocaust, attempting to eradicate an entire race.

From a British perspective, we tend to see the Soviets role as allies during that time and point to things like their liberation of Auschwitz as a measure.

So maybe it's just a perspective thing?  :-\

No my perspective is from being a historian who has studied every facet of WWII for a long time including many foreign historical sources.

Most Americans are not taught everything that Stalin did and not taught that Stalin had initially been allied with Germany. 

The full outline of things I just presented is objective fact not a viewpoint of what happened.

The British and FDR regimes didn't want to fight the Soviets so praised Stalin and didn't reveal we essentially made a pact with someone as bad as Hitler.  Some historians refuse to be honest because they are biased in favor of Marxism or the USSR while others want to protect the Allied actions of betraying the Poles and many of our ideals because we lacked the stomach to do anything about Stalin.

I'm not afraid of real history.  I like Churchill I own books he wrote about history and thing he wrote quite well but there are still things that must be faced such as he didn't want to simply give up the entire British Empire immediately so naturally supported Soviet efforts to take the Baltics and other support on the basis that the same logic being used against the Soviets could be used to justify the British Empire being liberated.

I'm  not one who is willing to sugarcoat history the simple reality is that the Allies especially the US was willing to compromise our values to avoid doing what was right.  That resulted in the Iron Curtain problems which still have implications today, has major implications in Korea and especially large implications in China. The people of China have suffered for many decades under Communist rule and still do so.  China has a mixed economy so it not a threat from the standpoint of invading neighbors to spread Communist but still has a tolitarian regime so the people are not free.  Most people don't particularly care but if we actually did what was necessary to prevent the Communist of China takeover the world would be quite different.

The US didn't care enough about China to help though our leaders only cared enough to stop Japanese aggression in China.

If you truly study history in depth you will find that the simple things published in history textbooks leave a great deal out.  Part of that is that is because a textbook is just supposed to prove a very broad overview unless it is a book exclusively to a very confined issue or point in time. 

In grammar school we learned about Greece and Rome and the foundations of the Western Civilization then it leads up to Medieval Europe and eventually US history.  I'm more interested in World history.  I took electives in High School about other history such as Russian History. In College I took courses on Japan, China, and various European countries particularly Germany. The German courses were mainly about specific eras such as one on the unification leading up to WWI, one on Weimar, another on the Third Reich and another post War Germany.  There is a huge difference when you concentrate on a specific period as opposed to getting a broad overview.  The Chinese courses were mainly about Mao's China. Japan covered the Tokugawa period to WWII so provided the formation of modern Japan without being able to go into the depth of courses like Weimar that covered only a short period of time.

This is where independent reading is so important.  These kinds of courses provide a good foundation to enable further learning on subjects.

The overview I provided of Stalin's actions are just the tip of iceberg but provides an accurate summary of things.

It is sheer fantasy that the USSR was doing anything to help the Allies before it was invaded by Germany and all of its actions after being invaded were for the profit of Stalin not the Soviet People.  He didn't care about the Soviet people and sacrificed them for his own purposes.  It wasn't just bad Soviet tactics and German skill that resulted in so many Soviet casualties.  Stalin didn't care about the losses and forced actions that resulted in high casualties.  He even had his own men shoot soldiers who refused to follow orders.

Hitler did some of the same things in that he virtually never allowed German forces to withdraw and when he did finally allow it then it was often too late.  Leaders had to either violate orders to save their men risking being killed by Hitler or to stand their ground and get captured.  German prisoners were often killed just like Soviets often were or ended up being worked to death as slave labor. 

Being a soldier is never easy but the Soviet and German forces had the worst political leaders and thus were in the worst of circumstances.  Hitler decided it was better for Germany to be destroyed than to surrender. Early on his stand your ground orders were seen by him as logical.  He thought if they fought hard knowing they can't retreat his forces would prevail and early on that sometimes happened.  But one the Allies began their counter offensives it never worked.  Hitler became like those cultists who would rather have their followers die than to simply give up the cult and let them survive.

Stalin only cared about land and sacrificed over 100,000 men just for the prestige of taking Berlin. People who want to praise Stalin are doing so for motives other than to realistically evaluate his leadership.   

           

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline ngb1066

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5784
Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #215 on: March 10, 2015, 05:54:PM »
The USSR was not an anti-Semitic state no. But Stalin being extremely paranoid did have his moments and did purge Jews for being Jews

I agree, there were some examples of individuals being persecuted towards the end of the Stalin era.  This was based upon the somewhat paranoid view that jews might have divided loyalty in relation to the newly formed state of Israel.   Kruschev exposed some of these examples in his famous speech in 1956 to the 20th congress of the Communist Party.  The new government renounced this antisemitism and jews remained in leading positions in all sectors of Soviet society.

 

Offline ngb1066

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5784
Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #216 on: March 10, 2015, 06:00:PM »
No my perspective is from being a historian who has studied every facet of WWII for a long time including many foreign historical sources.

Most Americans are not taught everything that Stalin did and not taught that Stalin had initially been allied with Germany. 

The full outline of things I just presented is objective fact not a viewpoint of what happened.

The British and FDR regimes didn't want to fight the Soviets so praised Stalin and didn't reveal we essentially made a pact with someone as bad as Hitler.  Some historians refuse to be honest because they are biased in favor of Marxism or the USSR while others want to protect the Allied actions of betraying the Poles and many of our ideals because we lacked the stomach to do anything about Stalin.

I'm not afraid of real history.  I like Churchill I own books he wrote about history and thing he wrote quite well but there are still things that must be faced such as he didn't want to simply give up the entire British Empire immediately so naturally supported Soviet efforts to take the Baltics and other support on the basis that the same logic being used against the Soviets could be used to justify the British Empire being liberated.

I'm  not one who is willing to sugarcoat history the simple reality is that the Allies especially the US was willing to compromise our values to avoid doing what was right.  That resulted in the Iron Curtain problems which still have implications today, has major implications in Korea and especially large implications in China. The people of China have suffered for many decades under Communist rule and still do so.  China has a mixed economy so it not a threat from the standpoint of invading neighbors to spread Communist but still has a tolitarian regime so the people are not free.  Most people don't particularly care but if we actually did what was necessary to prevent the Communist of China takeover the world would be quite different.

The US didn't care enough about China to help though our leaders only cared enough to stop Japanese aggression in China.

If you truly study history in depth you will find that the simple things published in history textbooks leave a great deal out.  Part of that is that is because a textbook is just supposed to prove a very broad overview unless it is a book exclusively to a very confined issue or point in time. 

In grammar school we learned about Greece and Rome and the foundations of the Western Civilization then it leads up to Medieval Europe and eventually US history.  I'm more interested in World history.  I took electives in High School about other history such as Russian History. In College I took courses on Japan, China, and various European countries particularly Germany. The German courses were mainly about specific eras such as one on the unification leading up to WWI, one on Weimar, another on the Third Reich and another post War Germany.  There is a huge difference when you concentrate on a specific period as opposed to getting a broad overview.  The Chinese courses were mainly about Mao's China. Japan covered the Tokugawa period to WWII so provided the formation of modern Japan without being able to go into the depth of courses like Weimar that covered only a short period of time.

This is where independent reading is so important.  These kinds of courses provide a good foundation to enable further learning on subjects.

The overview I provided of Stalin's actions are just the tip of iceberg but provides an accurate summary of things.

It is sheer fantasy that the USSR was doing anything to help the Allies before it was invaded by Germany and all of its actions after being invaded were for the profit of Stalin not the Soviet People.  He didn't care about the Soviet people and sacrificed them for his own purposes.  It wasn't just bad Soviet tactics and German skill that resulted in so many Soviet casualties.  Stalin didn't care about the losses and forced actions that resulted in high casualties.  He even had his own men shoot soldiers who refused to follow orders.

Hitler did some of the same things in that he virtually never allowed German forces to withdraw and when he did finally allow it then it was often too late.  Leaders had to either violate orders to save their men risking being killed by Hitler or to stand their ground and get captured.  German prisoners were often killed just like Soviets often were or ended up being worked to death as slave labor. 

Being a soldier is never easy but the Soviet and German forces had the worst political leaders and thus were in the worst of circumstances.  Hitler decided it was better for Germany to be destroyed than to surrender. Early on his stand your ground orders were seen by him as logical.  He thought if they fought hard knowing they can't retreat his forces would prevail and early on that sometimes happened.  But one the Allies began their counter offensives it never worked.  Hitler became like those cultists who would rather have their followers die than to simply give up the cult and let them survive.

Stalin only cared about land and sacrificed over 100,000 men just for the prestige of taking Berlin. People who want to praise Stalin are doing so for motives other than to realistically evaluate his leadership.   

         

Oh no, another one!  Another steaming heap of revionist crap.  Your blinkered view of the supreme benevolent role of the USA and your rabid anti- communism are the themes which underpin everything you write. 

Once again I will have to respond to your points.  I have not finished dealing with the last one yet.  I am busy for much of tomorrow but will do what I can.

 

Offline scipio_usmc

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9502
Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #217 on: March 10, 2015, 06:01:PM »
This is another outrageous calumny against the USSR.  Until Russian revolution anti jewish pogroms were common, in particular in the Ukraine.  One of the first decrees of the new Soviet government was to outlaw antisemitism.  There were never again anti jewish pogroms, save of course for those sanctioned by the Nazis in the Soviet territory they occupied from 1941.  In the USSR jews occupied senior positions in the government, the Communist Party and in the armed forces. 

It really beggars belief that not only do you suggest that the USSR had a policy of killing jews but they actually killed more jews than the 6 million generally accepted as the number of jews killed by the Nazis!

You need some serious re-education - and not by some rabid right wing American institution!

1) your bias sees to have caused your reading comprehension skills have fallen to waste.  I clearly stated Hitler killed more Jews and that is why his persecution is highlighted while Stalin's is ignored.

2) Both before and after the War Jews were persecuted by Stalin

3) Historians actually believe that the 6 million figure cited to Germany is wrong.  Nazi records and population figures from the areas do not support 6 million Jews being killed.  The figure has no actual evidentiary support.  We will never have any way to know the actual figures considering the huge population movements during the War. There is no need to inflate them though even if only 3.5 million Jews were killed, which is much more supportable of a figure, that is still an enormous number and doesn't somehow render the Nazis less evil. 

I consider contests over who killed more to be quite worthless. All mass murderers are evil and all mass murders are horrible tragedies.  To try saying one is worse than another and therefore try to defend one as less evil than another is silly.

The simple truth is that Stalin agreed to split various parts of Eastern Europe with Germany knowing the West would go to War with Germany and wanting that war to happen.  The Soviets continued trading with Germany providing much needed oil for their war machine. The World's largest producer and exporter of oil in that era was the US which enacted an embargo. Trying to pretend that Stalin was a great Ally and great guy is a complete waste of time.  It is rubbish.

 

 
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline David1819

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 12617
Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #218 on: March 10, 2015, 06:06:PM »
The British and FDR regimes didn't want to fight the Soviets so praised Stalin and didn't reveal we essentially made a pact with someone as bad as Hitler.  Some historians refuse to be honest because they are biased in favor of Marxism or the USSR while others want to protect the Allied actions of betraying the Poles and many of our ideals because we lacked the stomach to do anything about Stalin.
     

Churchill did put plans in motion to deal with Stalin (operation unthinkable) but I think everyone was glad the war was over with. Stalin died 7 years later so that's a good enough outcome for me

Offline ngb1066

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5784
Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #219 on: March 10, 2015, 06:08:PM »
Churchill did put plans in motion to deal with Stalin (operation unthinkable) but I think everyone was glad the war was over with. Stalin died 7 years later so that's a good enough outcome for me

It was unthinkable, and would not have succeeded.

 

Offline David1819

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 12617
Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #220 on: March 10, 2015, 06:13:PM »
It was unthinkable, and would not have succeeded.


Indeed, Russia is unconquerable
« Last Edit: March 10, 2015, 06:13:PM by david1819 »

Offline scipio_usmc

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9502
Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #221 on: March 10, 2015, 06:16:PM »
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/mar/10/hitler-vs-stalin-who-killed-more/
Think this is interesting reading

Population records prior to WWII and post WWII reveal that something on the order of 50 million people living in the lands that were part of the USSR in 1945 had died during WWII or after WWII as a result of Soviet punishment.  The punished people include those who wanted freedom such as those in Ukraine, political opponents and people thought to have cooperated with the Germans. People in these classes were killed both during and after WWII.

More than 21 million Soviet troops died in the field-some who were shot by Soviet forces and some of the force was made up from people living in land other than land the Germans managed to capture.  It is estimated 20 million civilians died but some of these were a result of Stalin's actions though there is no way to tell how many.  There is no way to know how many were tossed in gulags after the war as opposed to during.  No way to know how many civilians died at Soviet hands.  We just can tell that more of the population is missing than the official casualty estimates account for.   The Soviets intentionally didn't publish any population records until the 1960s because of this.  Soviet archive records opened after the fall of the USSR only provide limited answers.

People seem to be hung on on the numbers.  I don't care about the exact numbers the known numbers are sufficiently large to say that Stalin was horrible and his subjects suffered under his rule.  He helped start WII on purpose and only fought against Germany after Germany turned on him.

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline David1819

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 12617
Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #222 on: March 10, 2015, 06:28:PM »
2) Both before and after the War Jews were persecuted by Stalin

3) Historians actually believe that the 6 million figure cited to Germany is wrong.  Nazi records and population figures from the areas do not support 6 million Jews being killed.  The figure has no actual evidentiary support.  We will never have any way to know the actual figures considering the huge population movements during the War. There is no need to inflate them though even if only 3.5 million Jews were killed, which is much more supportable of a figure, that is still an enormous number and doesn't somehow render the Nazis less evil. 
 

Comparing Hitler and Stalins persecution of Jews is like comparing chalk and cheese. Stalin treated Jews the same as he treated all other people (Very Badly)

Your figures for the Jewish victims of the Nazi's are incorrect. Its estimated at 5.5 Million.

Offline David1819

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 12617
Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #223 on: March 10, 2015, 06:35:PM »
More than 21 million Soviet troops died in the field

That's incorrect. The Russian Military archives say 8.4 million soviet servicemen but western historians have speculated it could possibly be as high as 14 million. Considering the USSR always used to whitewash any records that made it look bad

Offline petey

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1305
Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #224 on: March 10, 2015, 06:47:PM »
That's rubbish. all the estimates are innocent people or prisoners of war.

I won't try and argue with you, but on this point I feel that your response to my message is clearly erroneous.

My main point is that statistics can be skewed depending on the purpose of the author. If you disagree with this point, then that is more worrying.