Author Topic: Russia - worrying?  (Read 140819 times)

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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #180 on: March 09, 2015, 11:29:PM »
In Syria we have a religious civil war. 40% of Syrians back Assad they are all more or less non sunni muslim or Christian.

http://www.understandingwar.org/sites/default/files/PieChart13Dec.jpg

The pro Assad are a unity of minorities that don't want Sunni rule. I cant see how the world could have done anything, To go in and create a democracy and expect the emotions of hatred to just go away?

Democracy is fairly stable in Muslim countries when the population is predominantly one sect of Islam. for example and Tunisia, Lebanon, Turkey, Kuwait and Iran (to some degree) all have a predominante religion.

In Syria like with Iraq the Sunnis will vote for the Sunni candidiate and the Shia will vote for their Shia candidate more or less. Hopefully things will change.

We didn't do enough to arm and train the moderate rebels and to actively help them.  Even though using ground troops sucks because it results in casualties it is necessary for an effective campaign.  If we told Assad we would invade to get rid of him unless he went peacefully and were serious then I don't think he would have pulled a Saddam and ran to hide in a hole in the ground he would have chosen life in exile.

We could then have helped the Free Syrians set up a government and promise a democracy for all.  The Islamists didn't want that so would have resisted but it would just have been a repeat of the failure of Al Quaeda in Iraq. 

Instead ISIS killed a lot of the moderates and worse have been heavily funded by rich Muslims and have become even richer as they loot the areas they take over.

The West ignored ISIS instead of actively taking efforts to squash them.

Gringo is lying about our finding of rebels allowing ISIS to grow in power it was are lack of support that allowed it:

"The moderate rebels in Syria called on Washington to send heavier artillery for months even before ISIS gained ground last summer. That aid never made it to the battlefield. And when ISIS bulldozed the border between Iraq and Syria in June, the rebels in Aleppo had to fight on multiple fronts, against Assad, ISIS and al-Nusra, with dwindling resources.

Recipients of U.S. lethal aid told IBTimes in interviews that the U.S. set them up for failure.

“The U.S. support was not enough for the rebels in the North to be strong and defeat the Islamic groups,” said Oussama Abu Zayd, one of the main advisers and an active member of Harakat Hazzm, adding that many moderate rebels defected to extremist organizations because they had more money. “They have millions of dollars from donors.”

http://www.ibtimes.com/us-backed-moderate-syrian-rebels-north-defect-obama-strategy-set-back-1839604

Each day we sit on our hands the larger the problem grows and ultimately the larger the military force that defeats them will have to be.

A sizable military force should be at the Iraqi border preventing any resupply form Syria and to prevent retreating into Syria they could be the anvil.  The hammer would be other forces to encircle the ISIS fighters.  You surround them and force them to either give up or you go after them and kill them.

Without Western forces this will take a lot more time and effort.

That won't be the end of course someone needs to go into Syria to clean them up. Just dropping some bombs from the air isn't going to do it.

The more established they become the larger the force they can field and the more effort it is going to take to defeat them completely.

Even if Iraq eventually manages to recapture its land without Western military power it doesn't end the ISIS threat because they will still have a large swath in Syria.  Someone needs to invade Syria to clean the out.  Sooner or later someone has to do it.  The longer you wait the bigger the task becomes.

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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #181 on: March 09, 2015, 11:32:PM »
  Funny that the rest of the world doesn't see things your way. You have convinced no-one that the US have good intentions. More and more people are waking to the fact that the US is a threat to the world. Your lies are falling on deaf ears.

You are delusional that you think most in the World think as you do.

You are little more than the modern rendition of a Cold War Soviet sympathizing Marxist.

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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #182 on: March 10, 2015, 12:11:AM »
Scip check out what Gringo said when this thread began

And he has the audacity the call us ill informed lol

His ilk I have dealt with before here are the atypical things they argue:

The UN should not have intervened to save North Korea we should have allowed them to be swallowed up by North Korea, all of Korea would be in great shape then.

The US should not have helped the Afghan rebels we should have let the Soviets take over.  Our funding of the rebels prevented the Soviets from making it into a modern nation and enabled them to remain backwards. After the Soviets left US funded rebels became the Taliban and Al Qaeda (of course the Taliban movement came from Pakistan and the Arab contingent in Afghanistan (that became Al Qaeda was very small, not recruited by us they went on their own and were not funded by the US) 

In 1990 the US told Saddam it was ok to annex Iraq and set Saddam up so we could then attack him.

The US invaded Iraq in 2003 to steal its oil

The funny thing is that they accuse the West of horrible human rights violations and yet anytime there are severe human rights violations going on they defend the people doing it or blame the west for creating such groups though we didn't.

Revisionist like Zinn and Chomsky help spread such crap to the masses. In College one class I took was on the Cold war.  The Iron curtain fell as I was starting high school so was over for a number of years by the time I was in college.   My Cold War professor was a prominent revisionist and one of the things he insisted was that the US went to War in Vietnam in order to establish a place for Japanese goods to be sold so that the US would not have to keep buying Japanese goods and could correct the trade deficit we had with them.  Of course no evidence was put forth to support such assertions.  All the evidence lead to trying to prevent the spread of Communism not capitalist motives to turn Vietnam into a trading partner for Japan or anyone else.

Oh and of course I forgot the 9/11 conspiracy theorists, we blew up the WTC so we could invade Afghanistan and we also allowed Japan to bomb Pearl harbor unmolested so that they could do more damage so that the American public would be more angry....

Gringo was trashing Fox news.  The only time I watch Fox is when Watters goes on the street to interview people.  Former Tonight Show Host Jay Leno used to do that too in a segment called Jaywalking.  It is amazing just how ignorant people are about current events and history- it is funny to watch but so sad at the same time.







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Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #183 on: March 10, 2015, 01:12:AM »
You are delusional that you think most in the World think as you do.

You are little more than the modern rendition of a Cold War Soviet sympathizing Marxist.
  Far from being delusional, I am in line with all polling on the matter. The US is seen as the biggest threat to world peace. Can you point me to polling which challenges this conclusion.
    You are the delusional one here if you believe that world opinion supports the US.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #184 on: March 10, 2015, 01:55:AM »
  Far from being delusional, I am in line with all polling on the matter. The US is seen as the biggest threat to world peace. Can you point me to polling which challenges this conclusion.
    You are the delusional one here if you believe that world opinion supports the US.

Thanks for reinforcing how delusional you are.  You see to think opinion polls establish facts when by definition they are opinion polls.

Those people who think the US is a threat to World Peace are extremely ignorant and biased.  At one point a majority of people thought the Earth was flat and if polled would have asserted such.  Just because a majority believed that doesn't make it true.

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Offline Caroline

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #185 on: March 10, 2015, 02:45:AM »
Thanks for reinforcing how delusional you are.  You see to think opinion polls establish facts when by definition they are opinion polls.

Those people who think the US is a threat to World Peace are extremely ignorant and biased.  At one point a majority of people thought the Earth was flat and if polled would have asserted such.  Just because a majority believed that doesn't make it true.

You mean it's not? :o - you'll be saying there's no Santa Claws next!  ;) 
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #186 on: March 10, 2015, 02:51:AM »
MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russian President Vladimir Putin has said he ordered officials to start work on taking control of Crimea weeks before a referendum which, the Kremlin has asserted until now, prompted the region's annexation from Ukraine.

"This was on the night of Feb. 22 through to Feb. 23. We finished around 7 in the morning. And, while saying goodbye, I told all the colleagues: 'We have to start the work on Crimea's return into Russia'."

In the months since, Putin has adjusted his account of what happened. He initially denied Russian troops were providing security for the referendum, but later acknowledged special forces had been deployed.

 Russian soldiers who took part have been given state medals with the citation "For returning Crimea", which give the starting date of the operation as Feb. 20, before Yanukovich was ousted.


http://news.yahoo.com/putin-says-plan-crimea-hatched-referendum-140644857.html


People were intimidated to vote for the referendum and anyone against it was driven out. Even now people can't speak freely, anyone who even dares to voice displeasure is persecuted.  There was a recent article about people tattletaling to the government like in the Soviet era anytime someone says something negative about Russia taking over even if just complaining about the poor economy. Peopel are beaten and even jailed.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/16/the-crimea-exodus-has-begun.html


In the meantime religious groups have been persecuted as well:

Odesa, Ukraine - Since Russia’s annexation of Crimea in March, religious groups there – aside from the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate) – are facing persecution, and restrictions on their ministry.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/nov/4/faith-in-the-time-of-annexation-a-tough-choice-for/#ixzz3TwhSWKeE

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2014/11/10/roman-catholic-religious-forced-to-leave-crimea-by-end-of-year/

Some businesses were taken over by the government and here is what happened to the rest:

http://ukraine.setimes.com/en_GB/articles/uwi/features/2015/01/28/feature-02

All the BS about ethnic Russians being persecuted by the new Ukrainian government was shear nonsense drummed up by the Russian propaganda machine.
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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #187 on: March 10, 2015, 02:53:AM »
You mean it's not? :o - you'll be saying there's no Santa Claws next!  ;)

Sorry to burst your bubble but in a few weeks the Easter bunny won't be around either.
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Offline ngb1066

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #188 on: March 10, 2015, 09:25:AM »
You are delusional that you think most in the World think as you do.

You are little more than the modern rendition of a Cold War Soviet sympathizing Marxist.

That may be the most terrible insult in the USA Scipio, but in the UK Europe I think you will find that more nuanced and balanced political views prevail.  Very many who were not marxists, as well as many who were (the left being far stronger here than in the US)  opposed US policy throughout the Cold War.

Red baiting has been a core weapon of the American right wing for many years.  It does not further the argument.

 
« Last Edit: March 10, 2015, 09:28:AM by ngb1066 »

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #189 on: March 10, 2015, 02:37:PM »
Thanks for reinforcing how delusional you are.  You see to think opinion polls establish facts when by definition they are opinion polls.

Those people who think the US is a threat to World Peace are extremely ignorant and biased.  At one point a majority of people thought the Earth was flat and if polled would have asserted such.  Just because a majority believed that doesn't make it true.
   It was you who brought up the fact that I was delusional to believe that most of the world agreed with my view of the US. I pointed you to polling to show my belief was correct. What the opinion polls establish is that it is a fact that world opinion is in line with my views. That was the point at issue and you raised it, not me.
     The polls may not establish as a fact that the US are the biggest threat, but they certainly verify that world opinion sees it this way. You dismiss it by calling the world delusional and biased. You are an arrogant deluded fool.
     Are you also delusional for introducing polls into this thread in the first place?, with your ridiculous PIPA poll earlier which you claimed proved that Iraqis agreed that it was a good thing that Saddam had gone.
     You are an apologist for war criminals and not even consistent in your idiocy.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #190 on: March 10, 2015, 02:57:PM »
   It was you who brought up the fact that I was delusional to believe that most of the world agreed with my view of the US. I pointed you to polling to show my belief was correct. What the opinion polls establish is that it is a fact that world opinion is in line with my views. That was the point at issue and you raised it, not me.
     The polls may not establish as a fact that the US are the biggest threat, but they certainly verify that world opinion sees it this way. You dismiss it by calling the world delusional and biased. You are an arrogant deluded fool.
     Are you also delusional for introducing polls into this thread in the first place?, with your ridiculous PIPA poll earlier which you claimed proved that Iraqis agreed that it was a good thing that Saddam had gone.
     You are an apologist for war criminals and not even consistent in your idiocy.

You call UN sanctioned operations against a guy who invaded his neighbors and gassed his own people war criminals while praising Russian aggression.  That is like attacking the Western Allies as war criminals while praising Stalin's aggression.  It is what is inconsistent and irrational. 
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Offline ngb1066

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #191 on: March 10, 2015, 03:28:PM »
You call UN sanctioned operations against a guy who invaded his neighbors and gassed his own people war criminals while praising Russian aggression.  That is like attacking the Western Allies as war criminals while praising Stalin's aggression.  It is what is inconsistent and irrational.

Are you referring to WW2?  If so you have a very warped view of history.  The USSR lost over 20 million of its citizens in the war and was our staunch ally in the battle against Axis evil. 


Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #192 on: March 10, 2015, 04:13:PM »
Are you referring to WW2?  If so you have a very warped view of history.  The USSR lost over 20 million of its citizens in the war and was our staunch ally in the battle against Axis evil.

Far from being a staunch ally the Soviets were simply allies because Germany decided to invade. 

Stalin did many things Hitler did such as persecuted Jews but did even worse starving millions of Ukrainians and other ethnics to death.  Stalin did things to his own people that Hitler only did to foreigners.  Since Hilter killed more Jews and did so in a more systematic fashion his actions are highlighted while people ignore those of Stalin.

Stalin was responsible for WWII beginning.  Germany was scared to start a 2 front war in 1939 because Germany was not on a footing to fight such a war.  The USSR formed a secret non-aggression pact with Germany.  They agreed to divide Poland and other areas of Europe.  Moreover the Soviets agreed to supply Germany with oil and food.  This enabled Germany to invade Poland and start WWII.  The Soviets invaded 16 days later on the 17th of September and committed the katyn Massacre.

Hitler wanted Germany and the West to maul one another and then he planned to swoop in and defeat both after both were exhausted.  The US, and much of the World in fact, stopped trading with Germany and the US began supplying the Allies.  While the US was busy supplying the allies the USSR was busy trading with the Nazis providing oil and foodstuffs.

After invading Poland the Soviets invaded Finland, next they invaded the Baltic Republics and Rumania. Stalin was busy taking more territory than Hitler until France was occupied. That was when Stalin's plan backfired.  Far from the Allies and Germans fighting a protracted War of Attrition like during WWI where both were exhausted, Germany rapidly routed the Allies and was in firm control of Western Europe.

The only fighting directly against the Allies in 1940 after France was naval and some air engagements and fighting in Africa.  In late 1940 the Nazis invaded the Balkans next.  In 1941 came the invasion of the USSR and that event is what caused the USSR to change sides.  It was because the Nazis invaded the USSR otherwise the Soviets would simply have stayed secret partners with the Nazis.

Even though the Soviets became an Ally and signed a pact saying they would not seek territorial aggrandizement they did so anyway.  With our help they were able to rebuild their industrial power and the Red Army then raped and pillaged its way across Europe.  Everything industrial was stripped from the land they "liberated".

3 key tenets of the Charter they signed were:

1) no territorial gains were to be sought
2) territorial adjustments must be in accord with the wishes of the peoples living on such land
3) all people had a right to self-determination

The USSR attacked Rumania and Finland annexing land from both, annexed the Baltic Republics and annexed land from Poland without regard to the desires of those living there.  The Germans were forced out of Eastern Priussia and the land given to their Polish puppet state.  Puppet states were established in all the lands they "liberated". They repressed the inhabitants of those lands they were supposed to be liberating.  Ukraine wanted independence.  Instead of respecting self-determination the people were brutally repressed.       

I know all about the history of WWII and Stalin ad I thus know that your portrayal is not reality but rather what Soviet Propaganda presented and some people choose to eat up either because of ignorance or bias.

 
 



   

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guest2181

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #193 on: March 10, 2015, 04:39:PM »
As an American, you were obviously brought up to see both Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union as the greatest of evils.
There is certainly a case for that, with Stalin's regime actually killing far more people than Hitler's. Although Hitler's regime brought about the holocaust, attempting to eradicate an entire race.

From a British perspective, we tend to see the Soviets role as allies during that time and point to things like their liberation of Auschwitz as a measure.

So maybe it's just a perspective thing?  :-\

Offline ngb1066

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #194 on: March 10, 2015, 04:41:PM »
Far from being a staunch ally the Soviets were simply allies because Germany decided to invade. 

Stalin did many things Hitler did such as persecuted Jews but did even worse starving millions of Ukrainians and other ethnics to death.  Stalin did things to his own people that Hitler only did to foreigners.  Since Hilter killed more Jews and did so in a more systematic fashion his actions are highlighted while people ignore those of Stalin.

Stalin was responsible for WWII beginning.  Germany was scared to start a 2 front war in 1939 because Germany was not on a footing to fight such a war.  The USSR formed a secret non-aggression pact with Germany.  They agreed to divide Poland and other areas of Europe.  Moreover the Soviets agreed to supply Germany with oil and food.  This enabled Germany to invade Poland and start WWII.  The Soviets invaded 16 days later on the 17th of September and committed the katyn Massacre.

Hitler wanted Germany and the West to maul one another and then he planned to swoop in and defeat both after both were exhausted.  The US, and much of the World in fact, stopped trading with Germany and the US began supplying the Allies.  While the US was busy supplying the allies the USSR was busy trading with the Nazis providing oil and foodstuffs.

After invading Poland the Soviets invaded Finland, next they invaded the Baltic Republics and Rumania. Stalin was busy taking more territory than Hitler until France was occupied. That was when Stalin's plan backfired.  Far from the Allies and Germans fighting a protracted War of Attrition like during WWI where both were exhausted, Germany rapidly routed the Allies and was in firm control of Western Europe.

The only fighting directly against the Allies in 1940 after France was naval and some air engagements and fighting in Africa.  In late 1940 the Nazis invaded the Balkans next.  In 1941 came the invasion of the USSR and that event is what caused the USSR to change sides.  It was because the Nazis invaded the USSR otherwise the Soviets would simply have stayed secret partners with the Nazis.

Even though the Soviets became an Ally and signed a pact saying they would not seek territorial aggrandizement they did so anyway.  With our help they were able to rebuild their industrial power and the Red Army then raped and pillaged its way across Europe.  Everything industrial was stripped from the land they "liberated".

3 key tenets of the Charter they signed were:

1) no territorial gains were to be sought
2) territorial adjustments must be in accord with the wishes of the peoples living on such land
3) all people had a right to self-determination

The USSR attacked Rumania and Finland annexing land from both, annexed the Baltic Republics and annexed land from Poland without regard to the desires of those living there.  The Germans were forced out of Eastern Priussia and the land given to their Polish puppet state.  Puppet states were established in all the lands they "liberated". They repressed the inhabitants of those lands they were supposed to be liberating.  Ukraine wanted independence.  Instead of respecting self-determination the people were brutally repressed.       

I know all about the history of WWII and Stalin ad I thus know that your portrayal is not reality but rather what Soviet Propaganda presented and some people choose to eat up either because of ignorance or bias.

 
 



   

You are a historical revisionist Scipio.  Your post is so riddled with fsalsehoods that it will take time to demolish them all.  I would never denigrate the sacrifices of any of our wartime allies, uncluding the USA.  For you to distort the role of the USSR in WW2 and to show the contempt for the sacrifices made its people is quite simply beyond the pale.  The USSR suffered more than any of the other allies and its hard fought successes on the Eastern Front enabled the Axis to be defeated totally, shortening the war by years (if it could in fact have been won) and saving many lives of the other allied countries.   

You claim to be an expert.  You are not, you are a mouthpiece for the nauseating filth which spews forth from far right  elements in the USA.   

I will answer in following posts your specific assertions.