Author Topic: Russia - worrying?  (Read 140654 times)

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Offline tyler

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #45 on: March 01, 2015, 01:39:PM »
Hello tyler I agree with you but thought it safer to keep my thoughts to myself but hey ho safety in numbers ;D :-*
Gosh Susan,I didnt expect anyone to agree with me - thank you! I dont care what people think of my opinion,all I know is that I am entitled to one and so I voiced it  :P

Offline Jan

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #46 on: March 01, 2015, 01:51:PM »
what Putin does in his own country is up to him and his people.

Here is one fact.From a witness .

Murderers and rapists are given a choice in Russia . Jail or fight in Ukraine.

When the ukranians got the upper hand at one point the soldiers  tried to flee back to Russia and were shot by the Russians on the border.


Offline ngb1066

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #47 on: March 01, 2015, 02:41:PM »
  To compare the Chechen conflicts with the wars of aggression launched by the west is ignoring the scope and scale of the wests invasions of sovereign territory. Russia involving itself in a civil war in a former republic is not really the same as our interventions.
    In the second Chechen war the Russians were fighting Islamist separatists, the sort that our governments arm and train to destabilise regimes that refuse to do our bidding.
    The conflicts in Georgia, Tajikistan, Transnistria and East Prigorodny were all civil wars/ inter ethnic conflicts in former soviet republics in the turmoil of the break up of the Soviet Union.
    All of these conflicts were on Russia's doorstep, were previously under Russian/Soviet influence and were inhabited by many ethnic Russians. They are in no way comparable to US/UK led invasions of Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan nor the US invasions of Grenada and Panama. The funding and arming of "rebels" to overthrow democratically elected governments in Chile, where thousands were rounded up by the West's favourite military dictator (General Pinochet) in Santiago Stadium and shot. All of those conflicts merely scratch the surface of US/UK interventions.
   I must also have missed the Russians illegal rendition programme and secret prisons out of the reach of any legal jurisdiction(Guantanamo) where the evil Russians hold prisoners without even having to tell them what the charges or accusations against them actually are and routinely torture prisoners.
   Where also would all the overseas Russian military bases be hidden. The US have over 250,000 military personnel deployed worldwide.
   The Soviet occupation of Afghanistan was by any fair measure somewhat more enlightened than what went on afterwards. During the Soviet occupation liberal attitudes prevailed and women went to university, were not forced to be veiled nor treated as chattel as they are in today's Afghanistan.
   For those who don't remember the Soviet occupation ended in 1989. Soviet forces fought alongside Afghan troops against US funded rebels. The US funded rebels or the "brave mujahideen" as they were invariably referred to on our nightly "Propaganda at 10" included such upstanding guys as Osama Bin Laden.
    So we funded these Islamist rebels to overthrow the Afghan Government. What could possibly go wrong? It's not as if any Islamist rebels hurt anyone is it, they're such nice guys. Except we all know what went disastrously, cataclysmically wrong and we still fund Islamist rebels in Syria.
    It is surely apparent to anyone paying real attention to world events over the years that our own Governments are the world's biggest warmongers, the numbers speak for themselves unfortunately. The ridiculous portrayal of events in Ukraine by our government cheerled as always by a media who couldn't see the WMD lies for what they were, or so we are led to believe, are a case in point. The reporting is bordering on hysterical and cares nothing for accuracy. The only remit, or so it seems is the "daily two minute hate" of Putin.
    To compare Russian aggression with US aggression and to then conclude that Russians are more aggressive on the world stage is to ignore every single piece of evidence.

Excellent post Gringo.  I agree entirely.  If the USA and its allies had not spent billions in arming and supporting so called "muhajadin freedom fighters" in their efforts to destroy the democratic and progressive government of Afganistan (supported by the Soviet Union at the invitation of that government) we would not be now faced with the same "freedom fighters" attacking us.


Offline ngb1066

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #48 on: March 01, 2015, 02:45:PM »
He can see what is going on in the west and clearly doesn't want to be part of the so called 'New World Order'. He is intelligent enough to know that the wars that the US and ourselves have started have nothing to do with WMD and everything to do with money and the control of oil. ". Imo warmonger Bush was far more dangerous than Putin.

I agree.

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #49 on: March 01, 2015, 04:15:PM »
Excellent post Gringo.  I agree entirely.  If the USA and its allies had not spent billions in arming and supporting so called "muhajadin freedom fighters" in their efforts to destroy the democratic and progressive government of Afganistan (supported by the Soviet Union at the invitation of that government) we would not be now faced with the same "freedom fighters" attacking us.


Im going to upset the apple cart and admit that I actually like Putin and think he is brilliant. He has done so much for his country and his people. Are you sure you are not all being led by what is written in the MSM? It seems to me,that Putin is his own man. He can see what is going on in the west and clearly doesn't want to be part of the so called 'New World Order'. He is intelligent enough to know that the wars that the US and ourselves have started have nothing to do with WMD and everything to do with money and the control of oil. Indeed,he has told President Obama "tell your citizens that 9/11 was a was a false flag,or I will.I have the evidence to prove it". Imo warmonger Bush was far more dangerous than Putin.
  Unfortunately Neil our media are so craven and complicit that the questions that should be asked by a truly free press are conspicuous by their absence.
    What passes as reporting world events in our media is nothing more than a Government press release and bears little or no resemblance to actual events. Memories are as long as the news cycle because surely someone in a free press should be wondering whatever became of those jolly mujahideen that we helped overthrow and form a government in Afghanistan.
    Reports from Ukraine are so lacking in balance that they come across as nothing more than the propaganda that they are. The accusations of a Russian invasion are laughable. Not one piece of evidence, pictures, satellite images are shown of any russian troops or equipment crossing into Ukraine. The Ukrainian Army plus various ragtag militia are shelling their own citizens who want nothing to do with the coup installed Kiev government.
    The eastern regions are largely ethnic Russian and if they want closer ties with Russia then why should anyone say otherwise. It is a civil war in Ukraine, one in which Ukrainian government conscripted boys are shelling their own citizens. Russia hasn't invaded and if they had then I am sure that there would be lots of evidence of this Russian invasion. Our government has to pretend that Russia is being aggressive in order to have one of our "humanitarian interventions" and people are seriously still falling for it.
     If the Russians were really to invade Ukraine they would be in Kiev inside 48 hours. Despite the ridiculous provocations of the US/EU Russia have in fact been the only grown ups on the world stage and have resisted responding militarily, instead choosing diplomacy, and in the process have made our supposed statesmen look like warmongering fools.
    Sergey Lavrov makes Hague and Kerry look out of their depth. But Hague and Kerry are just the paid stooges of vested interests rather than servants of the publics interest, something made apparent by their appetite for war.
    Tyler, I think there are many who would agree with you about Putin. Cameron, Obama, Bush, Blair et al are not a patch on Putin. Our leaders look like the weak placemen that they are in comparison. Putin serves Russia's interests and our leaders serve the interests of the corporations, bankers and rich elite.

Offline ngb1066

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #50 on: March 01, 2015, 04:19:PM »
  Unfortunately Neil our media are so craven and complicit that the questions that should be asked by a truly free press are conspicuous by their absence.
    What passes as reporting world events in our media is nothing more than a Government press release and bears little or no resemblance to actual events. Memories are as long as the news cycle because surely someone in a free press should be wondering whatever became of those jolly mujahideen that we helped overthrow and form a government in Afghanistan.
    Reports from Ukraine are so lacking in balance that they come across as nothing more than the propaganda that they are. The accusations of a Russian invasion are laughable. Not one piece of evidence, pictures, satellite images are shown of any russian troops or equipment crossing into Ukraine. The Ukrainian Army plus various ragtag militia are shelling their own citizens who want nothing to do with the coup installed Kiev government.
    The eastern regions are largely ethnic Russian and if they want closer ties with Russia then why should anyone say otherwise. It is a civil war in Ukraine, one in which Ukrainian government conscripted boys are shelling their own citizens. Russia hasn't invaded and if they had then I am sure that there would be lots of evidence of this Russian invasion. Our government has to pretend that Russia is being aggressive in order to have one of our "humanitarian interventions" and people are seriously still falling for it.
     If the Russians were really to invade Ukraine they would be in Kiev inside 48 hours. Despite the ridiculous provocations of the US/EU Russia have in fact been the only grown ups on the world stage and have resisted responding militarily, instead choosing diplomacy, and in the process have made our supposed statesmen look like warmongering fools.
    Sergey Lavrov makes Hague and Kerry look out of their depth. But Hague and Kerry are just the paid stooges of vested interests rather than servants of the publics interest, something made apparent by their appetite for war.
    Tyler, I think there are many who would agree with you about Putin. Cameron, Obama, Bush, Blair et al are not a patch on Putin. Our leaders look like the weak placemen that they are in comparison. Putin serves Russia's interests and our leaders serve the interests of the corporations, bankers and rich elite.

Another excellent post gringo.


Offline lookout

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #51 on: March 01, 2015, 05:12:PM »
Gosh Susan,I didnt expect anyone to agree with me - thank you! I dont care what people think of my opinion,all I know is that I am entitled to one and so I voiced it  :P




Good for you tyler.I admire you for that.

Offline Roch

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #52 on: March 01, 2015, 05:21:PM »
Im going to upset the apple cart and admit that I actually like Putin and think he is brilliant. He has done so much for his country and his people. Are you sure you are not all being led by what is written in the MSM? It seems to me,that Putin is his own man. He can see what is going on in the west and clearly doesn't want to be part of the so called 'New World Order'. He is intelligent enough to know that the wars that the US and ourselves have started have nothing to do with WMD and everything to do with money and the control of oil. Indeed,he has told President Obama "tell your citizens that 9/11 was a was a false flag,or I will.I have the evidence to prove it". Imo warmonger Bush was far more dangerous than Putin.

I'm sure Vladimir is no angel.  However this view does strike a chord with me.  Always love reading your posts Tyler.

Offline Roch

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #53 on: March 01, 2015, 06:46:PM »
With the Russian invasion of the Ukraine and their reluctance to stick to any ceasefire. They have increased their spending on defence - and today

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/27/russia-boris-nemtsov-shot_n_6772212.html?utm_hp_ref=uk&ir=UK&ncid=webmail1

Putin reminds me of Hitler - he needs stopping because he is certainly up to something!

I've thought along these lines too.  The way that the news is portrayed over here, I feel a person is naturally drawn towards this kind of view.  But I get the feeling that the way news is probably portrayed in other places, a person could be drawn to an opposing view that seems equally valid. 

Not sure if this is the best example to back up my theory but Nigel Farage recently gave a speech at a conservative event in the US, which also featured Sarah Palin.

Quote
Criticising Mr Obama's Middle East policy as being insufficiently forceful had been a reliable applause line at the conference throughout the day, so there was a certain amount of unease in those gathered when Mr Farage came at the topic from a different angle.
"The time has come to assess whether an interventionist foreign policy has been successful," he said. "We've actually inflamed and stoked the fire of militant Islam by doing what we've done."

His words were a sharp contrast to Ms Palin's remarks just 40 minutes earlier.
"Aside from God almighty, what is the only force strong enough to keep this barbaric tide at bay?" she asked. "It's the red, white and blue; it's the United States military."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-31629863

I have no doubt that US opinion will be divided regarding American foreign policy but I feel a sense of unease that many American people probably take the view that they are some kind of 'world police'.  The point I'm trying to make is that the US & UK news corporations will spin news and the Russians are probably doing similar.  It's hard to know what is fact and what is distorted or false flag.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 06:53:PM by Roch »

Offline Caroline

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #54 on: March 01, 2015, 09:00:PM »
I've thought along these lines too.  The way that the news is portrayed over here, I feel a person is naturally drawn towards this kind of view.  But I get the feeling that the way news is probably portrayed in other places, a person could be drawn to an opposing view that seems equally valid. 

Not sure if this is the best example to back up my theory but Nigel Farage recently gave a speech at a conservative event in the US, which also featured Sarah Palin.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-31629863

I have no doubt that US opinion will be divided regarding American foreign policy but I feel a sense of unease that many American people probably take the view that they are some kind of 'world police'.  The point I'm trying to make is that the US & UK news corporations will spin news and the Russians are probably doing similar.  It's hard to know what is fact and what is distorted or false flag.

Hi Roch,

Of course I know we are often told what the powers that be want us to know, but as you allude to; it is a feature of all politics and a tactic used world wide. Only time will tell if this little DICKtator is up to something but people who question his morality and his politics - end up dead.
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline Roch

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #55 on: March 01, 2015, 10:09:PM »
Hi Roch,

Of course I know we are often told what the powers that be want us to know, but as you allude to; it is a feature of all politics and a tactic used world wide. Only time will tell if this little DICKtator is up to something but people who question his morality and his politics - end up dead.

One way to look at it is this.  If Putin does away with his own political opponents - he looks bad.  I suppose it could be argued that he reduces internal opposition to himself due to the fear factor.  But this would probably be in direct proportion to external opposition, which would probably rise?

So, if you wanted to stoke up external opposition to Putin - you could assasinate one of his political opponents? 

There is something strange going on, with these apparent Russian planes buzzing our airspace etc.   

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #56 on: March 02, 2015, 12:22:AM »
One way to look at it is this.  If Putin does away with his own political opponents - he looks bad.  I suppose it could be argued that he reduces internal opposition to himself due to the fear factor.  But this would probably be in direct proportion to external opposition, which would probably rise?

So, if you wanted to stoke up external opposition to Putin - you could assasinate one of his political opponents? 

There is something strange going on, with these apparent Russian planes buzzing our airspace etc.
  It is unlikely that Putin had anything to do with the killing of Nemtsov. He has absolutely nothing to gain and everything to lose from such an act. Putin enjoys massive popularity in Russia and there is no effective opposition to him so why the need to kill his opponents.
    The Russian planes buzzing our airspace is not even worth reporting. NATO forces planes constantly fly near to Russian airspace. It is a game they all indulge in to test each others readiness and the fact that this is being reported as Russian aggression shows just how desperate the Western powers are to stoke the public into war readiness.
    In effect what is being reported is that Russian planes flew in international airspace and were near to British airspace. So what!! US/UK planes tend to drop an awful lot of bombs when they actually violate other countries airspace.
    The facts really do speak for themselves. Our governments have invaded, bombed and overthrown governments the world over whilst allying themselves with the most despotic, human rights abusing, terrorist sponsoring regimes on the planet. It is preposterous beyond belief that we can do business and ally ourselves with Saudi Arabia (Saudi Arabia!!) whilst claiming to defend human rights and promote democracy. We sell "crowd control equipment" to the Bahrain regime in order to brutally put down the demonstrations calling for more democracy there, whilst claiming to support democracy campaigners in other countries. It seems we have a horse in every race no matter where the race is but our choice seems to depend more on shared interests than ethics or humanitarianism.
     But still some believe the lies and justifications given by our bought and paid for politicians for every "humanitarian intervention". That anyone can compare alleged "Russian aggression" unfavourably with our own governments military aggression shows a gullibility that is staggering.
    Our leaders are warmongering psychopaths and the list of our wars and interventions is testament to that unfortunate truth. The ongoing crime scene of the Middle East is a shocking indictment of our leaders ravenous appetite for war based on economic interests and built on demonstrable lies. Putin didn't start any of those did he. In fact it was Putin who prevented the bombing of Syria at the UN, in yet another conflict being stoked by US/UK, who are currently arming and funding the Islamist terrorists.
    Until UK and US citizens wake up in sufficient numbers and oust the war mongerers and demand a foreign policy that is both ethical and in line with all of our interests, not the interests of a few criminals, then we should be grateful that Putin and Russia are acting as a bulwark against the war criminals that are our current leaders.
       
   
   

Offline Caroline

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #57 on: March 02, 2015, 01:47:AM »
One way to look at it is this.  If Putin does away with his own political opponents - he looks bad.  I suppose it could be argued that he reduces internal opposition to himself due to the fear factor.  But this would probably be in direct proportion to external opposition, which would probably rise?

So, if you wanted to stoke up external opposition to Putin - you could assasinate one of his political opponents? 

There is something strange going on, with these apparent Russian planes buzzing our airspace etc.

He denies it and people believe him (I don't), yes, there are planes buzzing around here and Alias confirms it has happened in Denmark too. I think he's seeing how far he can go and is basically sticking up two fingers to anyone who would question him. I don't trust him (although I don't trust Cameron either!).
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline Caroline

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #58 on: March 02, 2015, 01:50:AM »
Perhaps I just have trust issues where politicians are concerned?  ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Offline lookout

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #59 on: March 02, 2015, 09:16:AM »
Perhaps I just have trust issues where politicians are concerned?  ;D ;D ;D ;D





I have too. >:(