The series of unlikely events needed for Jeremy to be innocent

[scipio_usmc]

9) Sheila for some reason had to have decided not to kill her parents right away but instead decided to run around with the gun ranting and to somehow give Nevill at least several minutes alone in the kitchen


Lets try this one for a change .

JB never said a shot had been fired. He never said she was threatening anyone with a gun .

How do you know she was not just threatening herself and talking incoherently ? She could have been in the room with him when he called ? But there was still time ( because it would not take long to run upstairs and start firing? ) As soon as he heard a shot NB ran after her?

There are lots of scenarios - but when the call was made there was no message to say anyone had been shot at that time.

If he wasn't in fear of her hurting anyone the there is no reason to call Jeremy.  Jeremy didn't get along with her and hadn't talked her down in the past Nevill was the person who talked her down so why would Nevill call Jeremy who by his own admission would have made the situation worse?

All he had to do was take the gun away from her to prevent her form hurting herself.  Not only was he considerably stronger than her she would nor have even known she needed to chamber a round so taking it away would not have been difficult.  Why would June stay in bed through all this in the meantime?

Plus you forget that Jeremy claimed the phone got cut off.  Why would Nevill abruptly hang up and then take the phone off the hook?

[Adam]

There are several reasons/facts why Neville would not call Jeremy -


Jeremy may not answer. Regardless of whether he heard the phone ringing or not.

Neville may not have time. Sheila was going crazy. There were five people inside WHF who were the priority.

He may not answer for a long time as was 'sleeping like a log'.

Neville may only get the answering machine.

Neville will assume the answering machine is switched on. Making it impossible for Jeremy to answer the phone within 3 - 8 rings as he was 'sleeping like a log'.

Jeremy did not like Sheila or understand her illness.  So would just make things worse when trying to talk her down.

Sheila did not like Jeremy.

Another adult, June was available at WHF.

The rifle was not powerful, being used for vermin. Neville would know this. So Neville would tackle Sheila prior to shots being fired.

Sheila had 'limited'/ no experience with guns. So Neville would tackle Sheila prior to shots being fired.

Neville could restrain Sheila easily. If fully or even partially fit.

Neville and June together could restrain Sheila easily. If fully or even partially fit.

Neville could call the police. Something Jeremy is saying he did.

Jeremy was three miles away and not dressed. 

The police had been called by Neville ten minutes earlier.

Neville would be putting his only son in danger.

Jeremy may be scared to go over. He told Liz Rimmington that Sheila was going 'back to the nut house' and told the police she had committed child abuse. Now Neville had told him she had 'gone crazy' with a gun.

Jeremy did not have a key to WHF so would have to smash the door down, or smash a window. Or shout through the letter box. Making Sheila more excitable.  Neville may not have been aware that Jeremy could get in through windows.

Sheila would not be pleased to see him.

Jeremy would be reluctant to rush over if answering the phone. Having poor relations with all the family.

Jeremy may refuse to go over. Being tired and upset at being woken.Lookout said it was common for Sheila to have 'one of her turns' so he may have decided to go back to bed.

Jeremy may not rush over. Maybe wasting up to 26 minutes doing strange things.

Jeremy may just ring nearby farm workers and tell them to go over. Something Neville could do himself and may consider a better option.

Jeremy may just ring the Foakes's and tell them to go over. Something Neville could do and may consider a better option. 

Neville calling someone would antagonise Sheila. She may even brutally beat someone.

Neville could call the Foakes's. Who were two adults living at WHF.

There was no time to make any calls if Sheila had 'gone' crazy with a gun. 

When there was time to make a call Neville had the option of restraining Sheila. Getting June to assist.

There was no time to wait for someone to arrive. Sheila had 'gone 'crazy'.

Relations between the two were poor and getting worse.   After Jeremy robbed the caravan site and spent the money.

Neville would be prepared to take a torso bullet in order to restrain Sheila. Knowing the gun was for shooting vermin/rabbits and a torso shot would not kill him.

The kitchen phone was downstairs. Meaning everyone would be left upstairs. Unless Sheila had accompanied him downstairs.

If the answering machine was switched off, as his supporters claim. Jeremy would not hear his downstairs phone. If his bedroom door was shut.

Neville was bigger and stronger than Jeremy and the head of the family.

Sheila would have to let Neville open the door when Jeremy arrives. Or Neville would have to put himself in danger by getting to the front door against Sheila's wishes.

Sheila is more likely to fire bullets if more people start pressurising her and arriving on the scene.

Neville would be aware that he was the person who always had most success in calming down an excited Sheila. If he couldn't, then someone who thought Sheila was a 'looney' certainly could not.

Jeremy was not known to be especially brave. So may refuse to go anywhere near the inside of WHF. Preferring to stay 50 yards from the entrance.  This is what happened.

Neville would be implicating his son if there were any injuries or fatalities. As Jeremy would be first on the scene and first witness. This is what happened.

Jeremy was not known for being especially brave. So may have just phoned the police. Neville had either already done this. Or wanted to keep things private. Jeremy did in fact call the police.

It is not standard practice to call relations on the phone at 3am when you're life is in danger. There are no other examples of this happening.

[scipio_usmc]

If you can sort PV/2 out I will listen...

Sort what out?  Nevill had his left profile facing Jeremy when Jeremy fired the 4 shots in the bedroom.  PV2 was one such shot and was probably delivered when Nevill was sitting on the bed because the shooter was in a higher position than Nevill.   

[Alias]

If he wasn't in fear of her hurting anyone the there is no reason to call Jeremy.  Jeremy didn't get alone with her and hadn't talked her down in the past Nevill was the person who talked her down so why would Nevill call Jeremy who by his own admission would have made the situation worse?

All he had to do was take the gun away from her to prevent her form hurting herself.  Not only was he considerably stronger than her she would nor have even known she needed to chamber a round so taking it away would not have been difficult.  Why would June stay in bed through all this in the meantime?

Plus you forget that Jeremy claimed the phone got cut off.  Why would Nevill abruptly hang up and then take the phone off the hook?

How do you know?

How do you know?

[David1819]

A whole SERIES of issues makes it improbable he got out the gun to shoot rabbits the night of the murders.  1 of them is that he was not in the habit of doing so. Another was he didn't like shooting animals.  There were other reasons as well that make it unlikely.

In contrast he had a reason to kill his family.  A reason why he wanted to kill all of them not just his parents.  Various evidence establishes he did so regardless of the fact that people are in general unlikely to kill their family.

You and other supporters like to look at things in isolation because when the totality of the evidence is together it is overwhelming and there is nothing you can even attempt to do to take care of all of it.  Even in isolation you can't deal with some of it and just try to ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist.  That is often done with the simple dismissal as opposed to rebutting the evidence which is what is necessary to get such evidence to go away. Who addresses the bullets he staged in any competent manner?  No one frankly.  No one is dealing with most of the prongs related to whether it would be likely for him to have gotten the gun out let alone finding it with the moderator and scope removed as he claims.

He stood to gain hundreds of thousands of pounds from killing his family but nothing from killing rabbits.

The Series of issues you put forward are constructed with innumerable guesses and speculations on your part. Your portraying a prosecuting version of events rather than solid unbiased facts.

I appreciate the effort you make but at the end of the day not you or anyone else can solve the White House Farm murders I realised that myself a while ago having thoroughly read about the case being swayed one way or another by flimsy circumstantial evidence and opinion I soon realised you would have to have been there that night to be certain of what happened.

I once was fairly sure of Jeremy's guilt until two lawyers told me on separate occasions that if he was on trial today he would be found not guilty. That got me thinking and the more I looked into things the more cracks and holes I found in the prosecution. At the end of the day only Jeremy knows. So if he is innocent there will always be guesses rumors and doubt. If he is guilty he is only one that can effectively solve the case by providing a detailed confession.

[scipio_usmc]

How do you know?

How do you know?

Because I have a great deal of experience with guns and unless people are taught that they have to manually chamber a round into a semi-auto they don't know it themselves. The family never had a semi-auto until the murder weapon was purchased at the end of 1984 so no occasion to pick up prior to that the need to chamber a round.  The testimony from all even Jeremy was she had no interest in guns.  How would she know she needed to chamber a round by mind reading?

[Jan]

The Series of issues you put forward are constructed with innumerable guesses and speculations on your part. Your portraying a prosecuting version of events rather than solid unbiased facts.

I appreciate the effort you make but at the end of the day not you or anyone else can solve the White House Farm murders I realised that myself a while ago having thoroughly read about the case being swayed one way or another by flimsy circumstantial evidence and opinion I soon realised you would have to have been there that night to be certain of what happened.

I once was fairly sure of Jeremy's guilt until two lawyers told me on separate occasions that if he was on trial today he would be found not guilty. That got me thinking and the more I looked into things the more cracks and holes I found in the prosecution. At the end of the day only Jeremy knows. So if he is innocent there will always be guesses rumors and doubt. If he is guilty he is only one that can effectively solve the case by providing a detailed confession.

David - I would like to say how good it is to have you posting on the forum . I like your style and entirely agree with your comments.

I still think today that the moderator would not have been accepted as evidence and JMs evidence would be discounted if the full details of the deal had been known .

And I would love to see her 32 interviews.

[Adam]

Because I have a great deal of experience with guns and unless people are taught that they have to manually chamber a round into a semi-auto they don't know it themselves. The family never had a semi-auto until the murder weapon was purchased at the end of 1984 so no occasion to pick up prior to that the need to chamber a round.  The testimony from all even Jeremy was she had no interest in guns.  How would she know she needed to chamber a round by mind reading?

Maybe Neville showed her how to chamber a round. After he rang Jeremy and the police.

[scipio_usmc]

The Series of issues you put forward are constructed with innumerable guesses and speculations on your part. Your portraying a prosecuting version of events rather than solid unbiased facts.

I appreciate the effort you make but at the end of the day not you or anyone else can solve the White House Farm murders I realised that myself a while ago having thoroughly read about the case being swayed one way or another by flimsy circumstantial evidence and opinion I soon realised you would have to have been there that night to be certain of what happened.

I once was fairly sure of Jeremy's guilt until two lawyers told me on separate occasions that if he was on trial today he would be found not guilty. That got me thinking and the more I looked into things the more cracks and holes I found in the prosecution. At the end of the day only Jeremy knows. So if he is innocent there will always be guesses rumors and doubt. If he is guilty he is only one that can effectively solve the case by providing a detailed confession.

The case was already solved and the lawyers who said he would not be found guilty today are not smart lawyers because they clearly are pretending they would know what jurors would do.  When one looks objectively at the evidence Jeremy's guilt is clear.

The speculation that he would not be found guilty is just unsupported speculation unless one can attack the evidence that convicted him.  Apart for lies and wild speculation there has been nothing raised by Jeremy supporters in his defense.

There is no way Sheila could have killed anyone without getting evidence on her body and clothing to prove she had done so.  Not only does the lack of such undermine the claim she killed herself worse yet there is other evidence that proves even more strongly that she too was murdered.

Neither your lawyer friends nor anyone else has been able to undermine such evidence so Jeremy would be convicted today just as easily unless the jury had a sizable number of irrational people on it. The whole reason for majority verdicts is so that it takes more than just 2 nuts or corrupt people to prevent justice from being done. 

 

[scipio_usmc]

Maybe Neville showed her how to chamber a round. After he rang Jeremy and the police.

Wow that's the first time i saw you post a joke that was actually clever and funny.

[Adam]

Not convicted today ? But failed appeals.

Life seems unfair.

[Adam]

Wow that's the first time i saw you post a joke that was actually clever and funny.

Apologies for not reaching the standards of humour you set on here.

[Jan]

Apologies for not reaching the standards of humour you set on here.

that's even funnier.

[Adam]

that's even funnier.

Scipio makes 'The Terminator' look like Lee Evans.

[Caroline]

Scipio makes 'The Terminator' look like Lee Evans.

And you make Lee Evans look like the Terminator