Author Topic: COLP interview of Robert Boutflour, dated 4th September 1991, 45 Pages:-  (Read 3499 times)

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Offline mike tesko

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COLP interview of Robert Woodwis Boutflour, dated, 4th September 1991, consisting of 45 pages:-
« Last Edit: April 03, 2011, 07:16:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Boutflour speaks about Basil Cock, complaining about the fingerprint dust, at the time the silencer was found in the gun cupboard at whf - what this means is that the silencer to which he is referring to, could not have been found in the gun cupboard at whf on 10th August 1985, because no fingerprint examination took place at the scene as part of the SC/688/85 investigation, such a fingerprint examination was not undertaken at whf until the investigation changed on 6th September 1985, under SC/786/85...

The date when the silencer that was found in the gun cupboard has been changed from 11th September 1985, and back dated to 10th August 1985, and confirmed by reference to the fingerprint dust which was all over the place at whf, from 6th September 1985, onwards...

"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Roch

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Boutflour speaks about Basil Cock, complaining about the fingerprint dust, at the time the silencer was found in the gun cupboard at whf - what this means is that the silencer to which he is referring to, could not have been found in the gun cupboard at whf on 10th August 1985, because no fingerprint examination took place at the scene as part of the SC/688/85 investigation, such a fingerprint examination was not undertaken at whf until the investigation changed on 6th September 1985, under SC/786/85...

The date when the silencer that was found in the gun cupboard has been changed from 11th September 1985, and back dated to 10th August 1985, and confirmed by reference to the fingerprint dust which was all over the place at whf, from 6th September 1985, onwards...

That's quite a gaffe isn't it?  Still, they've got away with it anyway.  And nobody seems to want to comment on this anomaly.

Offline Kaldin

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Boutflour speaks about Basil Cock, complaining about the fingerprint dust, at the time the silencer was found in the gun cupboard at whf - what this means is that the silencer to which he is referring to, could not have been found in the gun cupboard at whf on 10th August 1985, because no fingerprint examination took place at the scene as part of the SC/688/85 investigation, such a fingerprint examination was not undertaken at whf until the investigation changed on 6th September 1985, under SC/786/85...

The date when the silencer that was found in the gun cupboard has been changed from 11th September 1985, and back dated to 10th August 1985, and confirmed by reference to the fingerprint dust which was all over the place at whf, from 6th September 1985, onwards...

That's quite a gaffe isn't it?  Still, they've got away with it anyway.  And nobody seems to want to comment on this anomaly.

It's not that I'm ignoring it, it's just that I don't have time to read the whole statement and Mike has refused to say which page that bit is on.

Offline Kaldin

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If Robert Boutflour made a statement on 10th September describing how the silencer was found, it couldn't have been found on 11th September.  ???

Offline Kaldin

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He seems to be saying (p39) that the statement took several days

Surely it would be dated at the time he finished the statement though.

Offline smiffy

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Having looked through some of it there is considerable deception displayed in the statement.
Particularly significant in regards to the silencer finding claim.
A lot of the character assassination stories show strong elements of deception.

Much more as well as that

page 35 (image 36)...is highly interesting.
Robert claiming that he believed at first that Neville died on the kitchen floor and later learning that Neville had died in his chair....seems like a police officer  must have informed him of some of the truth about when the firearms team entered the house.

Someone it seems let the cat out of the bag there !!!!

Oh and when it came to his denial when asked if he and others were trying to frame Jeremy it screams out........ LIE.  no doubt on that....LIE

Offline Harry

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Boutflour speaks about Basil Cock, complaining about the fingerprint dust, at the time the silencer was found in the gun cupboard at whf - what this means is that the silencer to which he is referring to, could not have been found in the gun cupboard at whf on 10th August 1985, because no fingerprint examination took place at the scene as part of the SC/688/85 investigation, such a fingerprint examination was not undertaken at whf until the investigation changed on 6th September 1985, under SC/786/85...

The date when the silencer that was found in the gun cupboard has been changed from 11th September 1985, and back dated to 10th August 1985, and confirmed by reference to the fingerprint dust which was all over the place at whf, from 6th September 1985, onwards...

Here is the passage from Robert Boutflour's statement to City of London Police.

COLP interview of Robert Boutflour, dated 4th September 1991

"I have been asked if Peter Eaton, Ann's husband was at any time at White House Farm that afternoon or Barbara Wilson, I have no recollection of Peter being there at all, but Barbara Wilson may have been, I can't actually remember her actually being there. I do remember Basil Cock complaining about the fingerprint dust and that he didn't seem to have any interest in the silencer. He may have been talking to someone else, but I cannot visualise who that was.

I have been asked to describe how the silencer was handled after it was found. I remember that I was shocked by its finding and said I thinking aloud "the buggers aren't looking“, meaning the police. I had a clear view of it, a maximum of 6 feet away, but I didn't try and touch it, and I don't recall David and Ann having a close look at it either. I recall the box, and also a green plastic bag with .22 ammunition in it. The bag may have been green all over, or it may have had print on it. I cannot remember. I believe it was me that suggested to David that he put it into the bag. As I have already indicated I never had my glasses with me so I never looked at it closely to see the blood. I can only picture seeing the silencer sideways on, not the ends of it."


Offline Harry

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It has been suggested that Robert Boutflour's recollection of the occasion may have been faulty given that the interview took place in 1991, six years after the murders. But Ann Eaton's statement of September 12th 1985 is consistent with her father's statement of 1991, although she does not mention fingerprint dust.

She also mentions a bag of ammunition found along with the silencer and Basil Cock being present when the silencer was allegedly found on August 10th.

From the Statement of Ann Eaton, September 8th to 12th.

 "Mr. COCK decided that he would need to speak to the farm secretary Barbara WILSON. He telephoned her and she agreed to come to the farm.
On arrival at the farm Barbara WILSON was very emotional and she conferred with Mr. COCK.

My father. David and I started to have a look around the house.

My brother David collected all the guns around the house so that we could take possession of them for safe keeping. This was on the authority of Mr Cock

My brother, DAVID. then went into the downstairs office and I stood in the doorway and saw David open the gun cupboard. He got onto his knees and he then checked the cupboard.

David then took out a silencer and a telescopic sight and a carrier bag of ammunition. David said to me that the silencer and telescopic sight belonged to the rifle which had killed the BAMBERS and the CAFFELL twins."
« Last Edit: November 22, 2018, 04:47:AM by Harry »

Offline Harry

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It is interesting to focus on this bag of ammunition because Robert Boutflour and Ann Eaton both say it was found by David Boutflour at the same time he found the silencer.

It should seem clear that father and daughter are talking about the same day when a silencer was found along with other items at Whitehouse Farm. So what day was this? Was it August 10th of was it September 11th?

It has been suggested that David Boutflour found a silencer on two occasions. He found one on August 10th and another on September 11th. So it is presumably maintained that fingerprint dust was there when the second silencer was found on September 11, but not when the first one was found on August 10th. The trouble with that theory is that it requires us to believe that duplicate items were found on two occasions and both with Basil Cock present.

« Last Edit: November 22, 2018, 07:34:AM by Harry »

Offline mike tesko

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If Robert Boutflour made a statement on 10th September describing how the silencer was found, it couldn't have been found on 11th September.  ???

Ann Eaton handed over the silencer to DC Oakey on the 11th September 1985, it's not stated on which day it had been found, therefore, Robert Boutflour could have known about the find of the silencer from as early as the day before (10th September 1985) before his daughter handed it over to police, which would then account for why his witness statement which makes mention of the silencer was dated the 10th September 1985..
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 06:12:AM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline David1819

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It is interesting to focus on this bag of ammunition because Robert Boutflour and Ann Eaton both say it was found by David Boutflour at the same time he found the silencer.

It should seem clear that father and daughter are talking about the same day when a silencer was found along with other items at Whitehouse Farm. So what day was this? Was it August 10th of was it September 11th?

It has been suggested that David Boutflour found a silencer on two occasions. He found one on August 10th and another on September 11th. So it is presumably maintained that fingerprint dust was there when the second silencer was found on September 11, but not when the first one was found on August 10th. The trouble with that theory is that it requires us to believe that duplicate items were found on two occasions and both with Basil Cock present.

The only logical answer is that RWB was incorrect in his recollection of the event.

Are we really going to think that thousands of statements and lab documents are all false on the basis of RWBs recollection six years after?  Occam's razor dictates that RWB remembers the event incorrectly.

In my humble opinion both silencers were found at the same time on the 10th of August. The second silencer is the Pargeter silencer and it was taken from WHF along with the Pargeter rifle. Pargeter and the other relatives then claimed this was never at the farm for convenience reasons.
"A theory without facts is fantasy"

Offline Harry

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The only logical answer is that RWB was incorrect in his recollection of the event.

Are we really going to think that thousands of statements and lab documents are all false on the basis of RWBs recollection six years after?  Occam's razor dictates that RWB remembers the event incorrectly.

In my humble opinion both silencers were found at the same time on the 10th of August. The second silencer is the Pargeter silencer and it was taken from WHF along with the Pargeter rifle. Pargeter and the other relatives then claimed this was never at the farm for convenience reasons.

You know very well that Robert Boutflour's recollection of the fingerprint dust when the silencer was found is not the only evidence that a silencer was found by David Boutflour at some date later than August 10th 1985.

Several police documents recording the finding of a silencer have been posted on this forum. You are going to have to claim that David Boutflour found a second silencer to escape the conclusion that the alleged finding on August 10th is a fiction.

Even if Robert Boutflour just invented the observation of fingerprint dust out of thin air, there is other compelling evidence that DB found a silencer on or just before September 11th. It's recorded in the telephone message log.

(Doc P31) Telephone Message Log 38, 11th September 1985 reads:
‘David Boutflour has found a silencer with blood on it’




You would need to claim that this entry is mistaken and also the other documents produced by several officers, but how likely is that?


Offline Harry

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There are several reports referring to a silencer collected by DC Oakey from Ann Eaton on September 11th 1985. Suggesting that all of these are mistakes is merely absurd. This silencer is referred to by DS Davidson on September 13th.

(Doc P34) Action Report 181 allocated to DS Davidson, 13th September 1985: “Examine the following for blood fibres and finger prints. 2/ cardboard box containing silencer and ammunition. 3/ Check silencer for fibres”



In this post from a while back you edited what Davidson wrote to try to make out that he was only talking about an empty box. You removed the sentence (3) "Check silencer for fibres."

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9536.msg442721.html#msg442721
Quote
Read it Action 181 carefully. "Cardboard box containing silencer & ammunition"

Its not a box containing a silencer. Its the now empty box that David Boutflour found the silencer in back in August.

Poorly written paperwork indeed.

I am reading it carefully.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 04:14:AM by Harry »

Offline mike tesko

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It has been suggested that Robert Boutflour's recollection of the occasion may have been faulty given that the interview took place in 1991, six years after the murders. and yet, in his own typed notes, his recollection of the date of the find of the silencer is dated Sunday 11th August 1985, as opposed to the alleged find of 'it' falling on Saturday 10th August 1985 - these typed notes were what Robert Boutflour made up after the silencer had been found and handed over to police! The mix up with the date, for example, where he puts the 11th, as opposed to the 10th, was probably slipped in after his daughter Ann Eaton had already handed over the silencer to DC Oakey on the 11th September 1985, as opposed to the finding of the silencer by David Boutflour on the 10th August 1985, which supposedly led to that silencer being handed over to DS Jones by Peter Eaton on the 12th August 1985. I think I am correct in saying that Basil Cock was not present at the farmhouse (whf) on Saturday 10th August 1985, but he was present there on the (Tuesday)11th September 1985 which dramatically coincides with the date Ann Eaton gave the silencer (AE/1, CAE/1, DRB/1) to DC Oakey!But Ann Eaton's statement of September 12th 1985 is consistent with her father's statement of 1991, although she does not mention fingerprint dust. but, the police did not fingerprint whf back in August 1985, during the three days they had control of the crime scene, on 7th, 8th, and 9th August 1985, which fell on a Wednesday, Thursday and a Friday - fingerprinting took place not only at Jeremy's cottage, and the premises where Mathew McDonalds girlfriend was living, but also at whf and to vehicles belonging to the farm, and of course Jeremy's astra motor vehicle, exercises not undertaken and  which coincided with the time of Jeremy's first arrest on or about Sunday the 8th September 1985

She also mentions a bag of ammunition found along with the silencer and Basil Cock being present when the silencer was allegedly found on August 10th.Yes, it's somewhat revealing that both Robert Boutflour, and his daughter Ann Eaton made the exact same mistake claiming that Basil Cock was present at the scene (WHF) on Saturday 10th August 1985, when there was supposed to have been fingerprint dust everywhere, when no fingerprinting had been done at the scene by that date, and would not be undertaken there until the following month!

From the Statement of Ann Eaton, September 8th to 12th.

 "Mr. COCK decided that he would need to speak to the farm secretary Barbara WILSON. He telephoned her and she agreed to come to the farm.
On arrival at the farm Barbara WILSON was very emotional and she conferred with Mr. COCK.

My father. David and I started to have a look around the house. I am convinced that these activities occurred in September 1985, but that they were backdated to Saturday 10th August 1985, and that this could only have been arranged with an eliment of collusion involving Robert Boutflour, Ann Eaton, David Boutflour, Peter Eaton, Basil Cock, DS Jones, DC Oakey, DC Davison, PI Miller, DI Cook, Glynis Howard, and other fringe co - conspirators involved in presenting the recovery of the silencer as having taken place a month sooner (10th August 1985), than it had been (11th September 1985). What appears as though what did happen, is that a small flake of dried blood which David Boutflour claims he had scraped off the silencer using a razor blade was probably noticed to be stuck on the end of it after the silencer had been taken away from the farmhouse in the boot of Ann Eaton's car, along with firearms, accessories and ammunitions, and amongst other things a plastic bucket containing a pair of heavily bloodstained knickers which could only have belonged to Sheila Caffell, on or about 10th August 1985. To cut to the chase, in one of his witness statements, David Boutflour talks rather candidly about him having used a razor blade to scrape the blood from the silencer once they had got the silencer back to Ann Eaton's kitchen. He said that he retained 'it' (the flake of dried blood) because he said 'it fascinated him'! Well, I believe that at some point prior to the 30th August 1985, that the piece of dried blood to which David Boutflour has alluded to was actually exhibit 'DB/1'(Lab' item number 23) sent by Essex police to the Lab' on that particular day, rather than the police having sent the silencer upon which David Boutflour claimed he'd scraped the blood from, and it was this flake of blood 'DB/1'(23) which subsequently got analysed at the Lab' on the 12th, 13th, 18th and the 19th September 1985, in accordance with the four obtained blood group results discovered at the Lab' on each of those dates. I don't believe that a second silencer had been submitted to the Lab' any time sooner than 20th September 1985, and the reason why it was only then decided to submit to the Lab' on that particular date, is because of the blood group results obtained from the flake of blood which David Boutflour claimed he had scraped from 'it' (the second silencer). It really is an astonishing sequence of events, with the benefit of hindsight, to be able to reconstruct what must have taken place, involving the crucial flake of blood which David Boutflour had scraped from one of the silencers (or so he says), which ended up at the Lab' ( in my opinion) well in advance of the silencer upon which Boutflour claimed he had found it upon! So, in a nutshell, the flake ends up at the Lab' by 30th August 1985, exhibit DB/1(23), blood group activity ( A, EAP BA, AK1 and HP2-1) obtained on 12th, 13th, 18th, and 19th September 1985. Essex police submit the silencer in question (AE/1, CAE/1, DRB/1) to the Lab' on the following day for the silencer to be checked for blood and fibers (20th September 1985), a silencer which Ann Eaton had handed over to DC Oakey on the 11th September 1985, which in turn had been fingerprinted by DS Eastwood and DS Davison on the 13th September 1985, and not examined until the 25th September 1985, at which time it was noted for the very first time, that red paint particles had been found crushed into the knurled pattern of the silencers metal end cap!

« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 07:45:AM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...