Author Topic: The murder of 14 year-old schoolgirl Jodi Jones near Edinburgh on 30 June 2003  (Read 311783 times)

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Online gordo30

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Once again plz prove what your are saying. Why would you so often criticise Sandra for what she puts up and NOW!! Ask her to back up what your saying? What side of the coin do you sit mate? I have told you that these two who ever they two were didn’t come forward at the time, here’s an even better point though, these two didn’t testify to what your saying at court.

Online nugnug

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JF and GD were telling people it was Luke even before Jodi's family believed it. Not sure if Sandra can confirm.

and why would they want to do that.

Online nugnug

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Maybe GD and JF did see something? They were the first people to tell everyone it was Luke, and Jodi's family fell out with them after it. Maybe because they didn't come forward with what they had seen. That would explain why Joey wanted to batter them. They didn't help. Maybe they didn't want to talk to police or want to grass someone they sold drugs to?

if so why wold they not come forward.

Online sandra L

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Ferris and Dickie!

They didn't come forward for 5 days. Ferris said afterwards his gran, Alice Walker, told him not to because they were on the path "too early" (at around 4.30). Since the time of Jodi leaving was thought, by Judith originally, to be 5 o'clock (later changed to 5.30, then to 4.50), how could AW be sure they hadn't seen someone suspicious lurking around the area? Ferris was never questioned in court about his claim that his gran told him not to come forward, nor was AW.

Jodi's mum did "fall out" with them later, claiming they knew more than they were letting on, but has never pushed for the police to go after them to find out what that was. Why might that be?

When MBB went to the Gran's on the morning of July 1st, he did not describe someone who could be Luke, but one witness said Ferris kept saying that afternoon, "it's Luke, it's Luke." However, the same witness said Ferris was behaving very strangely - whenever an article about Jodi came on the news, he would turn the volume up and concentrate intently on it. He was also very tense and "snappy" according to this witness.

We know from other witnesses the police were telling people from the off that Luke was the killer and they would have him arrested within the week - there's no reason to suppose they were telling Jodi's family anything different, so if Ferris and Dickie "knew" it was Luke, that's because the police were telling anyone who would listen!

Why didn't they tell police the truth about that afternoon? I think it's a dead cert that the whole lot was dishonest, not just the timing - they could "remember" everything about that afternoon except the correct time (even though Dickie remembered the time of his jobcentre appointment from which Ferris picked him up on the moped) or where they were when the bike was propped at the V point without them (even though they gave an "account" of everything else they did on the path).

It sure as hell wasn't because they were "covering" for Luke - their initial statements are entirely focused on incriminating him - stories about Luke and knives, Luke and cannabis, jabbing Jodi in the leg with a knife (never corroborated by anyone else), handing police knives they claimed belonged to Luke (one of them turned out later to be Ferris's own knife and there was nothing to corroborate the other claims) - it goes on and on. If they'd seen Luke there that day, there's absolutely no way they would have covered that up - their enthusiasm to point the finger at him in their early statements (while lying their heads off about the time) just stopped short of saying it was Luke, anyway!

What reason might Joseph have had to want to batter Ferris? Oh, yes - Ferris destroyed the alibi Judith gave police for Joseph that afternoon. It was Ferris, it appears, who told the police about Joseph's 9 bar which is why the police went back to Judith and Alice, several days into the investigation, to ask about Joseph, who'd been airbrushed out of their earlier statements.

As for not wanting to grass someone they sold drugs to - Ferris was singing like a canary about all the people who bought cannabis from him, not just Luke. He said in court Luke still owed him for the last lot. And we know the police were telling witnesses they weren't interested in cannabis, that nobody would be in trouble for anything cannabis related, they just wanted information about "the murderer" (what they meant was they just wanted information about Luke Mitchell).

So, not to cover for Luke, not to cover for someone they sold drugs to, not because they had special knowledge about Luke (since the police were telling everyone they "knew" it was Luke), so what are we left with?

Why did Ferris ask his gran and another male relative, on July 1st, if he should go to the police or not? There's a slightly different version of this, according to Yvonne Walker. She said Ferris did intend to go to the police on July 1st, so something must have changed his mind. Was it not so much a case of asking his gran, but mentioning that he'd been on the path and was going to tell the police that, and he was told not to? Then there's the gloves - why lie about them (and try to hide them prior to that)?

I, too, think Ferris and Dickie know more than they're letting on, but not about Luke Mitchell.


Online gordo30

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It’s strange that in those earlier encounters with the police that they were pointing the finger at Luke, why not simply say they saw him behind the wall? That’s because they didn’t see him but they should have. We know they were there so why not!
No real way of determining a time for the bike being at the wall, the tool yard workers knocked off around 5pm and by the time they locked up, got in their cars and drove to a point where they could see the bike certainly puts the 17:15 timing being accurate. Was the bike there only fleetingly? Simply stopped there to look over the wall, nothing to see and move on to the next place. No one else seems to put the bike there at the wall, neither Kelly,woman pushing the pram.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 03:56:PM by gordo30 »

Online gordo30

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Thinking about the bike.
Does anyone know who owned it?
Where it was kept?
It’s movements that day? We know Dickie was picked up by Ferris so was Ferris running around on it that day
Was it forensically tested?
Remember this bike was positively placed at a murder scene at the time it was supposed to have occurred, if it was tested and found to have dna then the owners/riders would have questions to answer. If however it was clean would that go some way to suggesting that the murder didn’t occur at that time!


I was also wondering where the furthest item contaminated with blood that was found at the scene and at what direction it was found in relation to the body?

Online sandra L

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The woman pushing the pram wouldn't have seen it, Gordo, because she walked up the Easthouses Road rather than Roan's Dyke path. The most obvious witness would have been the guy on the pushbike who originally said (from memory) he thought he'd cycled up the path around 5.30pm - again, the time frame was altered over time to make it between 5pm and 5.10pm. If he cycled up the path beginning at 5pm,he'd have been at the other end of the path by the time Ferris and Dickie turned onto it from the Newbattle Road. If he cycled up it at 5.10pm, he couldn't have failed to see and hear the bike. If (as he originally said) it was nearer to 5.30pm and the moped wasn't there, we can deduce that it was removed sometime between 5.15pm and 5.30pm.

According to their finalised statements, Dickie and Ferris got back to Dickie's house at "about half five" - it would have taken them literally a few minutes, on the moped (if it didn't cut out again, which, according to them, it didn't) to get there. So, based on the information we have, the bike was at the V point for somewhere around 10 - 12 minutes from 5.15pm. They did claim that they drove up and down Roan's Dyke Path "a couple of times" before heading to Dickie's house - there is no other information anywhere to support those claims.

But, if they did, it would mean the murderer was stripping Jodi and mutilating her body, completely unconcerned by a couple of youths in such close (and noisy) proximity. Since they suggested that one reason the moped might have been propped against the wall was because they were "tired out" from pushing it, why would they take it back down the path, risking it cutting out again and the possibility of having to push it even further to get it home?

Online sandra L

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Thinking about the bike.
Does anyone know who owned it?

Apparently it was jointly owned by both youths who rode it that day.

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Where it was kept?
Dickie's back garden

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It’s movements that day? We know Dickie was picked up by Ferris so was Ferris running around on it that day

Apparently, it was in Dickie's back garden when Ferris arrived between 2 and 3pm. They tinkered with it for a bit (Dickie getting his mum to take him to the Shell garage in Mayfield to get fuel for it). He left Ferris tinkering with it when he went to his Jobcentre interview and, according to statements, Ferris stayed there until he got the call from Dickie to pick him up.  The only movements on record for it are Ferris's trip through the woods and Newbattle Golf Course to collect Dickie and the return journey. Ferris and Dickie claimed to be in Dickie's house until around 9pm, when Ferris left and walked to Yvonne Walker's flat, so it would appear the bike wasn't moved again after 5.30pm. There were two witnesses whom Ferris claimed to have spoken to on his way down Lady Path between 4.20pm and 4.30pm - I have their names, but have never seen statements from them.

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Was it forensically tested?
Remember this bike was positively placed at a murder scene at the time it was supposed to have occurred, if it was tested and found to have dna then the owners/riders would have questions to answer. If however it was clean would that go some way to suggesting that the murder didn’t occur at that time!

Not to my knowledge. If it was, the information was never released to the defence. It wasn't even known about until Saturday 5th July and (again, from memory) by the time the police got around to asking about it, they no longer had it. As per the introduction of confusing information in this case, another "dirt bike" was mentioned by one of the two (I'd have to go back and check which one - I think it was Ferris, but I'll double check) - that was in relation to the finding of the gloves. Information was offered about the history of this bike, but it's unclear whether they claimed to have ridden it before or after the bike in question.

There were witness statements about Ferris climbing over a fence later that night, his jeans ripped and covered with what the witnesses assumed was mud. To my knowledge, those jeans were never forensically tested either.


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I was also wondering where the furthest item contaminated with blood that was found at the scene and at what direction it was found in relation to the body?

A bloodstained branch was retrieved 25 yards westward of the body (so 9 yards from the body in the direction of Newbattle). Other bloodstained branches were discovered eastward of the body (in the direction of Easthouses), but their distances from the body were not recorded (or, if they were, the information was never released to the defence). Someone claiming to be a relative of Jodi's once claimed that a bloodstained branch was found in the waste ground to the right of the lane leading to the Easthouses entrance to the path, so that would have been some 500 yards eastward of the body. Craig Dobbie claimed Jodi went over the wall and a violent encounter ensued, causing her to turn "eastward, towards home" - he made this claim on the basis of bloodstained branches found in the woodland strip. If, as he claimed, Jodi was attacked immediately she went over the wall at the V point, the bloodstained branches he's talking about would have to be at least 16.3m eastward from the body, since Jodi was found 16.3m west of the V point. All of the bloodstains on the branches were found to be Jodi's blood.

The police files refer to yards and metres interchangeably - sorry if that's confusing, but it's all we've ever had to work with and it makes it really difficult to pinpoint with any precision exactly what distance they're talking about.

Online gordo30

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The branch 25 yards towards newbattle when taken in context with the initial assault being around 7m? In that direction could suggest it was a part of that initial assault or had been moved because of the assault. Those further towards Easthouses are more suspicious in relation to possible movement of the murderer. It would seem strange have such an array of items as widespread as that. The V proved negative to any blood or forensics didn’t it so if the two lads on the bike had entered that clearing beyond the V they would surely have contaminated that area when leaving it to get the bike. Again does that mean that no crime scene existed at that time!
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 06:44:PM by gordo30 »

Online gordo30

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Jodi was attacked immediately she went over the wall at the V point, the bloodstained branches he's talking about would have to be at least 16.3m eastward from the body, since Jodi was found 16.3m west of the V point. All of the bloodstains on the branches were found to be Jodi's blood

The area at the woodlands side of the V didn’t contain that much blood though did it? The initial assault happened further westwards of the body in a more dense area of woodland, the area where the spatter and smear were located


Online sandra L

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The spread of the bloodstained branches is consistent with Jodi possibly being attacked, breaking away and trying to run, then being attacked again (even Dobbie himself alluded to that). The other possibility is that some of them could have been moved by animals - dogs, perhaps? That wouldn't be a reasonable explanation for the 6' branch (the one found furthest westward), but may account for some of the others.

Using the word "bloodstained" maybe gives the wrong impression - the branches all had spots or drips of blood on them - they weren't covered with blood.

The problem with the V point is how many people had been through it by the time the forensics officers got there. For example, blood on a boulder at the path side of the V was considered incapable of providing any usable evidence because it could have been deposited there by police officers at the scene. The explanation for no trace of Jodi going through the V was the same, but it's odd that there was no trace of the wall on Jodi either. I've been through the V point many times and every time, I get "scuff marks" of some description on my jeans.

It's true that the area directly behind the V had no bloodstaining, which doesn't fit with Dobbie's theory of the assault starting there and then moving westward then eastward. We don't know for sure where the initial assault happened - all we know is there was blood spray and a small smear on the wall to the west, beside where Jodi's body was found. The area where Jodi was found (and her body itself) were remarkably clean of blood, which seems very unusual. We don't know, for example, if blood had pooled beneath where Jodi lay, because no soil samples were taken (or, if they were, they weren't released to the defence). There was no pooled blood at the foot of the wall where the blood spray was (and where it was claimed Jodi's throat was cut) - the crime scene photographs show that clearly. I've said for many years that the spray on the wall is highly unlikely to be arterial spray.

So where does all of that leave us? The lack of evidence from the wall could suggest that there was no crime scene when the boys on the moped were there, meaning the time of death was wrong. Coupled with the kids who were playing in the woodland strip at the time who saw and heard nothing and the dog walkers at the junction of the paths at five o'clock who saw and heard nothing, Dickie Snr's claim to have seen and heard nothing, the cyclist's and Falconer's claim that they saw nothing, that's 9 people at or around the scene who should have seen something and didn't.

Similarly, because of the absolute hash the police made of protecting the crime scene, lack of evidence from the wall could be because they didn't try to collect it or they conceded from 8am on July 1st that whatever they might get from the wall would be evidentially worthless. We know that someone carried blood over the wall to the path side because of the blood on the boulder, but we'll probably never know who that was. It would have been a very dangerous move for the killer to climb back through the V onto the path side - that would have put him out in the open, with nowhere to hide, for several hundred yards in both directions. Also, he would have no idea if someone might appear on the path just as he climbed through (that happened the last time I was down there - had just climbed back onto the path side when a man appeared behind me and scared the bejeezus out of me because I didn't know he was there).

There were other, far safer routes for him to make his escape without being seen.

Online gordo30

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When put together like that it does make the time of the murder pretty impossible but we’ve known that for a while.

Didn’t Dickie snr take his dogs through that point sometime that day? I remember the oldest one wasn’t able to jump up that high or was it further down the path that he entered the woodland?


Online gordo30

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One big problem is if the murder occurred sometime after the 17:15 allotted time spot and put it to the latest of those 9 people who should have heard or saw something then we have a short window of when the crime could have been committed, equally we have a longer window of when it couldn’t have. If Jodi has simply went somewhere else and with someone different, whoever she was with would also appear to be the murderer!(alternatively she could have been with someone who caused her to be murdered) Or why wouldn’t they have came forward and simply said “yeah Jodi was with me until 6,7,8 pm etc”. Then we have the fact that if she had been with someone else for an extended period of time from where the crime occurred it would appear that Jodi was making her way towards Luke at newbattle, or alternatively on her way back from that area.

At that later time of night it would be unlikely for her to actually expect to go to see Luke! Mainly because of the non contact so she couldn’t be sure Luke would even be in, also this would be out of sorts with the routines and regular actions of Luke and Jodi .

Online sandra L

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When put together like that it does make the time of the murder pretty impossible but we’ve known that for a while.

Didn’t Dickie snr take his dogs through that point sometime that day? I remember the oldest one wasn’t able to jump up that high or was it further down the path that he entered the woodland?

He took his 8 dogs through the V point (he lifted the old one through). The problem is, we can't put a time on when that was - their statements are all over the place - anywhere between 5.30pm and 8 - 8.30pm. I'd have thought the dogs would have left forensic traces on the wall - it's a stone dyke that 7 dogs scrambled up, through and over onto the other side. Dickie Snr said he walked back up from the V break, on the woodland side, to the big break at the junction of the paths (the Easthouses end) and back along Lady Path. If it was the later end of the timescales given, he'd be arriving back at the house shortly before Ferris left to go to Yvonne Walker's, but neither of them ties the two events as happening in such close time proximity.

it absolutely fries my head, even after all these years, trying to work it out!

Online gordo30

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Crucially though it fits with there not being a body or a crime scene at the time the prosecution claimed.

Jodi has to be somewhere else at some point that night.
I was wondering we hear a lot about the close relatives to Jodi on her mother’s side and these were regular haunts for Jodi, she would visit YW and her gran, I’m sure she was also close to the aunts if their actions that night are anything to go by. What about har relatives on her fathers side? Did she regularly see them? Where did her uncle stay the one who committed suicide before the trial?

Looking at other aspects to see where she had went might be more informative. She had nothing substantial in her digestive system and we know she didn’t  have dinner! Would this suggest she wasn’t somewhere where food was readily available? No alcohol in her system but the toxicology report stated she had used cannabis at some point after she had left the house. I’m kinda leaning towards not being at a house she knew well or outside somewhere the whole time, surely though she would have been seen!

Where there any squats around the area that kids used to hang around in?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 09:52:AM by gordo30 »