Author Topic: The murder of 14 year-old schoolgirl Jodi Jones near Edinburgh on 30 June 2003  (Read 727427 times)

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Offline nugnug

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Are we really suggesting the trace semen was transferred at the crime scene?

i really dont know all i know is stevn is one of the luckest men alive normally if your sperm is found on the victemits up to yu think of an explanation.

or vry likely your barister explianing to a jury.

Offline nugnug

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Nothing to do with luck, Steven had an alibi and Luke didn't.

an albi from girlfriend means nothing when your sperm is found of the victem well not to mostcops anyway.

plenty of people have provided albis and still ended up in prison.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 02:07:PM by nugnug »

Offline nugnug

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Oh so Jodi's sister gave him a false alibi. Funny how Janine doesn't have any trouble accepting it was her shirt.

plent of people have had false albis from there girlfriends a girlfriends albi doesnt nrally help you if theres other evdnce agianst you.

ort the police think there wullie gage has an albi from his girlfriend he was still convicted
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 02:16:PM by nugnug »

Offline nugnug

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Have plenty of people had false alibis from girlfriends who were also the victims sister? You may live on a planet where girls help cover for their sisters murderer. I live in the real world where it was her boyfriend with the knife obsession who she met with before she was killed that stabbed her.

yes its happend before being related to victem does not normally exclude you from suispion of wrongdoing.

a diffrent police force investiating they may have both probely wrongly but they would of been there.

they dont normally xept an explantion of a borrowed t shirt without evdence to back it up.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 02:30:PM by nugnug »

Offline nugnug

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Yes nugs besides others.

who else have been researchinng.

Offline sandra L

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Are we really suggesting the trace semen was transferred at the crime scene?

We're not, the prosecution was. The important question is not so much where semen was transferred (since according to the prosecution it managed to grow legs and run across the woodland strip from one item of clothing to another), but how it came to be deposited in the first place.

It was never proven that the t-shirt Jodi was wearing belonged to Janine - zero evidence, not even DNA from Janine herself. So, on the basis of the actual evidence, all of the samples from the t-shirt returned DNA from Jodi, some partial, unidentified male samples and a full profile from Kelly. If there is no proof that the t-shirt belonged to Janine, we have to default to the evidentially supported theory that the t-shirt was, in fact, Jodi's.

That changes the ballpark somewhat, because now, the question is, how did Kelly's DNA get on Jodi's t-shirt?

Offline sandra L

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Nothing to do with luck, Steven had an alibi and Luke didn't.

Not quite! Both had alibis, each of them (obviously) dependent on the word of other people. Luke had an alibi from the first day of the investigation - his mother. His brother told police on day 5 of the investigation that Luke made the tea that evening - in his first statement on day 3, he couldn't remember much about the Monday evening.

Steven had no alibi until day 12 of the investigation. In fact, until then, he said simply that he'd gone home from Janine's "in the afternoon" and had his tea, then gone back to Janine's later. The story about them going to Kelly's father's together for tea at about 4.30pm and returning at around 7pm didn't emerge until day 12.

Kelly's father was able to remember, 12 days later, exactly what they'd eaten on the night of Monday 30th June. No-one thought that was suspicious.

Shane didn't remember what he'd had for tea 3 days earlier - it was only when his mum reminded him on day 4 that he went back to the police to correct his statement, but that was considered suspicious.

So, really, it came down to what the police chose to believe about alibis, rather than who had or didn't have alibis.

Here's a little challenge - what did you eat on Monday 22nd October, with whom, where and when and can you prove it?
What did you eat on Tuesday this week, with whom, where and when and can you prove it?

I'll go first - no idea and no idea. I cheated and checked my diary, but I'm not in the habit of recording what I eat. I can tell you I was home alone both days, so even if I could remember what I ate, I couldn't prove it.

Anybody else?


Offline lilly15

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Do you think the huge difference in treatment right from the start was intentional? Everyone else involved or known to Jodi seems to have been able to give various explanations for their actions and whereabouts even changing the info yet the same didnt apply to Luke.

Offline sandra L

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Without shadow of a doubt lilly15. What people don't realise is that the police were acting on wrong information from the off - for example, they believed Luke was coming up the path on his bike and that Jodi left her home with him at teatime.

Identical circumstances in both families were treated so differently - details about what people ate were treated as instantly suspicious in the Mitchell household, but not elsewhere, even when those details contradicted each other. 14 year old, heavily medicated Luke sleeping on one settee in the livingroom with his mother sleeping on a settee at the other side of the room was indicative of an "unnatural" relationship, but 19 year old Joseph sleeping in his mother's bedroom, wrapped in Jodi's duvet, at the foot of his mother's bed was accepted as perfectly natural.

I'm not saying there's anything suspicious about any of those circumstances, because there's not. I couldn't tell you what I ate three days ago and I think children of any age naturally seek their mother's comfort during times of trauma and tragedy. The question is why did the police make such a difference?

Offline nugnug

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We're not, the prosecution was. The important question is not so much where semen was transferred (since according to the prosecution it managed to grow legs and run across the woodland strip from one item of clothing to another), but how it came to be deposited in the first place.

It was never proven that the t-shirt Jodi was wearing belonged to Janine - zero evidence, not even DNA from Janine herself. So, on the basis of the actual evidence, all of the samples from the t-shirt returned DNA from Jodi, some partial, unidentified male samples and a full profile from Kelly. If there is no proof that the t-shirt belonged to Janine, we have to default to the evidentially supported theory that the t-shirt was, in fact, Jodi's.

That changes the ballpark somewhat, because now, the question is, how did Kelly's DNA get on Jodi's t-shirt?

tou would sory expect somones dna to be on there own t shirt woldent you
« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 09:23:PM by nugnug »

Offline sandra L

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It's one of those little things that's always niggled, Nugnug. Was it rubbish DNA testing (or selective testing), or was there genuinely no DNA of Janine found on the t-shirt? There was certainly none ever reported in the test results.

I guess we have to look at the various possibilities and decide what's most plausible:

(a) All of Janine's DNA was washed off in the washing machine, but Kelly's DNA survived the wash cycle.
(b) All of everybody's DNA was washed off in the washing machine and DNA on the t-shirt was deposited after it was washed
(c) The t-shirt Jodi was wearing wasn't Janine's and that's why there was no DNA from Janine found

I can't think of any others - can anyone else?

If we take each in turn,
(a) means Kelly's DNA survived in the form of sperm heads - biological detergent would have destroyed other traces (at least in terms of what was recoverable in 2003). But if that was the case, the "rainwater transfer" theory cannot stand, for the reasons I've already given.

(b) means Kelly's DNA was deposited on the t-shirt at some point after it was washed - perhaps in Janine's room. This was DNA from a bodily fluid, rather than skin flakes or so-called "touch DNA," so how might that have happened? The other alternative, of course, is that it was deposited while Jodi was wearing the t-shirt.

(c) means the whole "borrowed t-shirt" theory is a complete red herring (as I discuss in my new book, there was no reliable evidence to support the borrowed t-shirt theory).

It's an interesting area for discussion - I still can't decide what it all means. From an evidential perspective, (c) is the correct position - the t-shirt was never borrowed, with or without permission.

Offline nugnug

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sandra refresh my memory was his dna actully found on the t shirt or on the bra strap alegedly transfring from the t shirt.

Offline sandra L

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The full DNA profile was recovered from the outside front of the t-shirt. It was never recorded exactly where on the t-shirt (upper front, lower front, etc).

Everything else on the t-shirt and bra was explained away by "transfer theory" - including a recorded semen stain on the outer left cup of the bra which, it was suggested, had transferred into the padding below.

That stain matched up with the visible semen stain on the left sleeve of the t-shirt.

Offline nugnug

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The full DNA profile was recovered from the outside front of the t-shirt. It was never recorded exactly where on the t-shirt (upper front, lower front, etc).

Everything else on the t-shirt and bra was explained away by "transfer theory" - including a recorded semen stain on the outer left cup of the bra which, it was suggested, had transferred into the padding below.

That stain matched up with the visible semen stain on the left sleeve of the t-shirt.

and as far as i know there is no suggestion that jodi borrowed her sisters bra.

Offline sandra L

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No, there wasn't. The bra evidence was interesting for a number of reasons.

They claimed it, too, was clean, to ensure there could be no "innocent explanation" if Luke's DNA was found on the bra (he'd had sex with Jodi on the Saturday night and were together on the Sunday evening). There was no evidence that it was a newly laundered bra, just a guess from Jodi's mother.

They also claimed that semen from the outside of the bra had soaked through into the padding by rainwater transfer - what that doesn't explain is how it got onto the bra in the first place. It's hard to believe they were really trying to claim that DNA (almost certainly sperm heads) survived a wash in the machine, then transferred from a clean t-shirt to a clean bra beneath and then the rain caused it to soak through into the padding. Didn't stop them claiming, during interrogation, that the partial profiles recovered from the bra "matched" the corresponding "parts" of Luke's DNA profile when there were, in fact, 5 markers that didn't appear in Luke's profile at all!

When you then consider there was semen found on her left breast, from which partial profiles were recovered which excluded LM, it does seem to stretch the transfer theory quite a bit!