Daniel and Nicholas Caffell: 22 June 1979-7 August 1985

[maggie]

..but this is primarily a thread about Nicholas and Daniel.http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article1153519.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/SUNDAY%2BMIRROR%2BONLY%2BBambi%2BCaffell%2Bin%2B1986%2Bwith%2Btwins%2BNicholas%2Band%2BDaniel&imgrefurl=http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jeremy-bamber-killer-says-he-adored-1153202&h=410&w=615&sz=47&tbnid=OGc8Ty5y74_E1M:&tbnh=90&tbnw=135&zoom=1&usg=__NzZ_s-SSaAOE5AKbRW-l7lAS8Z4=&docid=dHKM1JpQxIGndM&sa=X&ei=9yK8UbbqKuic0QWn-YD4Cg&ved=0CEIQ9QEwBA&dur=2374

Hi Steve, even though it's a thread about Daniel and Nicholas, and your allegation that JB is guilty as charged of this very tragic crime, Julie Mugford is relative. 
She knew what was going to happen, she knew when it had happened and she supported the perpetrator until their relationship ended at which point everything changed and she accused him of the killings.
Just pointing out to you that if you believe one fact ie. JB murdered Daniel and Nicholas in a premeditated attack which he discussed with Julie Mugford on various occasions up to and just after the crime. ........you then have to surely believe the second fact   ie. Julie Mugford allowed this crime to happen and was willing to profit from it until things changed and she realised she would neither profit nor have the man she loved.

[Steve_uk]

Hi Steve, even though it's a thread about Daniel and Nicholas, and your allegation that JB is guilty as charged of this very tragic crime, Julie Mugford is relative. 
She knew what was going to happen, she knew when it had happened and she supported the perpetrator until their relationship ended at which point everything changed and she accused him of the killings.
Just pointing out to you that if you believe one fact ie. JB murdered Daniel and Nicholas in a premeditated attack which he discussed with Julie Mugford on various occasions up to and just after the crime. ........you then have to surely believe the second fact   ie. Julie Mugford allowed this crime to happen and was willing to profit from it until things changed and she realised she would neither profit nor have the man she loved.

Where's my post on the mock interview I gave Julie in Waterstones bookstore..you'll find I deemed an apology appropriate. Julie has had nightmares many times over,she has engaged in charity work helping many young people,and don't let Jeremy off the hook because if Julie's statement is true as it has to be for your assertion to be correct then it still makes Jeremy the instigator of these crimes which none of the Jeremy supporters can dodge and makes a mockery of the frontispiece of this site counting the days of Jeremy's wrongful incarceration.

[mike tesko]

It is on record that Sheila told her psychiatrist, that she thought that her twin sons were both evil, who wanted to rape her, and she told him that "SHE WANTED TO KILL BOTH OF THEM", whilst both were still very much alive. She wanted to kill them both, they both died, she killed them, like she said she wanted to, and intended to - it is irrelevant whether her psychiatrist thought she might actually kill her kids like she said she wanted to, and would do, the fact is Sheila said she intended to kill them both because in her mind they were both evil...

At the time Sheila threatened to kill the children, they had birthdays to look forward to, they had the rest of their lives to look forward to, she cut their lives short by shooting them, nobody else did, she killed them like she said that she intended to...

How utterly remarkable, that Sheila confesses to her psychiatrist that she wants to kill her children,, and nobody but Sheila herself, and her psychiatrist knew what she had spoken about, and her kids end up dead...

Fact is,even before she went on to kill them both, she never intended for them to celebrate anymore birthdays, which was / is how it turned out...
 

[Steve_uk]

It is on record that Sheila told her psychiatrist,, that she thought that her twin sons were both evil, who wanted to rape her, and she told him that "SHE WANTED TO KILL BOTH OF THEM", whilst both were still very much alive. She wanted to kill them both, they both died, she killed them, like she said she wanted to, and intended to - it is irrelevant whether her psychiatrist thought she might actually kill her kids like she said she wanted to, and would do, the fact is Sheila said she intended to kill them both because in her mind they were both evil...

At the time Sheila threatened to kill the children, they had birthdays to look forward to, they had the rest of their lives to look forward to, she cut their lives short by shooting them, nobody else did, she killed them like she said that she intended to...

How utterly remarkable,, that Sheila confesses to her psychiatrist that she wants to kill her children,, and nobody but Sheila herself, and her psychiatrist knew what she had spoken about, and her kids end up dead...

Fact is,even before she went on to kill them both,, she never intended for them to celebrate anymore birthdays, which was / is how it turned out...

Can you post the direct reference? Offhand I believe it more to be something like Sheila saw the Devil in them,that she thought they were capable of sex with her and Nicholas would turn out to be a woman hater. I'm not saying it's not shocking but Sheila was a schizophrenic after all.

[Jane]

Hi Steve, even though it's a thread about Daniel and Nicholas, and your allegation that JB is guilty as charged of this very tragic crime, Julie Mugford is relative. 
She knew what was going to happen, she knew when it had happened and she supported the perpetrator until their relationship ended at which point everything changed and she accused him of the killings.
Just pointing out to you that if you believe one fact ie. JB murdered Daniel and Nicholas in a premeditated attack which he discussed with Julie Mugford on various occasions up to and just after the crime. ........you then have to surely believe the second fact   ie. Julie Mugford allowed this crime to happen and was willing to profit from it until things changed and she realised she would neither profit nor have the man she loved.

I wonder if Steve realises that the more he pushes what a heinous crime was committed against these innocent babies who were so cruelly deprived of their right to live full and happy lives, the more he renders even MORE intolerable Julie's role in their fate. If we continue to say that Jeremy was responsible we must also, IMO, say that by her passive acceptance of what he told her he was planning, she gave him permission to carry it out. 

[mike tesko]

Can you post the direct reference? Offhand I believe it more to be something like Sheila saw the Devil in them,that she thought they were capable of sex with her and Nicholas would turn out to be a woman hater. I'm not saying it's not shocking but Sheila was a schizophrenic after all.

I have the psychiatrists report somewhere, I will try and find them out, and post them...

I think it was during Professor Fergusons trial testimony that he referred to the fact that Sheila told him that she wanted to kill her children, and he added that he did not think the children were ever in danger, or words to that effect...

Many criminals have been convicted by a reliance on confession evidence, or comments made like those that Sheila spoke about before the act, albeit linked with other evidence, to secure a conviction. Where such a person says such things, then goes on to carry out the said deed, but thereafter is killed, or commits suicide, the said guilty party never is in danger of arrest, of being prosecuted, of being convicted and sentenced, or treated, because of their own death...

Sheila Caffell, is / was one of those / these cases...

[maggie]

It is on record that Sheila told her psychiatrist, that she thought that her twin sons were both evil, who wanted to rape her, and she told him that "SHE WANTED TO KILL BOTH OF THEM", whilst both were still very much alive. She wanted to kill them both, they both died, she killed them, like she said she wanted to, and intended to - it is irrelevant whether her psychiatrist thought she might actually kill her kids like she said she wanted to, and would do, the fact is Sheila said she intended to kill them both because in her mind they were both evil...

At the time Sheila threatened to kill the children, they had birthdays to look forward to, they had the rest of their lives to look forward to, she cut their lives short by shooting them, nobody else did, she killed them like she said that she intended to...

How utterly remarkable, that Sheila confesses to her psychiatrist that she wants to kill her children,, and nobody but Sheila herself, and her psychiatrist knew what she had spoken about, and her kids end up dead...

Fact is,even before she went on to kill them both, she never intended for them to celebrate anymore birthdays, which was / is how it turned out...

Hi Mike, I wonder if the extended rellies ever considered the possibility of suing certain medical practitioners for negligence because of their failure to take Sheila's illness and her delusional thoughts more seriously?? 
Had June and Nevill, social services et al been alerted maybe this tragedy could have been averted.  Sadly, JB has been nominated for the role of monster while others walk free continuing their lives into old age. 
If June or Neville had have been spared they may have felt the need to pursue these revelations further.  Part of the problem for Jeremy Bamber has always been the fact that his nearest and dearest died and other relations were happy enough to see him take the blame imo.

[maggie]

Where's my post on the mock interview I gave Julie in Waterstones bookstore..you'll find I deemed an apology appropriate. Julie has had nightmares many times over,she has engaged in charity work helping many young people,and don't let Jeremy off the hook because if Julie's statement is true as it has to be for your assertion to be correct then it still makes Jeremy the instigator of these crimes which none of the Jeremy supporters can dodge and makes a mockery of the frontispiece of this site counting the days of Jeremy's wrongful incarceration.

Steve I was speaking hypothetically and you know that.

An apology will never do. 

How do you know she has had nightmares?  Even if she says she has, it doesn't mean she has imo

She should surely do charity work because she wants to help children not to make herself feel better.

I'm not speaking about Jeremy, I'm speaking about Julie Mugford's part in all this.

[Steve_uk]

I have the psychiatrists report somewhere, I will try and find them out, and post them...

I think it was during Professor Fergusons trial testimony that he referred to the fact that Sheila told him that she wanted to kill her children, and he added that he did not think the children were ever in danger, or words to that effect...

Many criminals have been convicted by a reliance on confession evidence, or comments made like those that Sheila spoke about before the act, albeit linked with other evidence, to secure a conviction. Where such a person says such things, then goes on to carry out the said deed, but thereafter is killed, or commits suicide, the said guilty party never is in danger of arrest, of being prosecuted, of being convicted and sentenced, or treated, because of their own death...

Sheila Caffell, is / was one of those / these cases...

But Colin met with Dr. Ferguson who told him Sheila was no danger to the children or herself. You can read this here:http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1560.0.html

 I have read that Colin invited Jeremy to the party on the Saturday before the murders so he could ask Jeremy if he would discuss with his parents about a possible change of treatment for Sheila. I believe Jeremy never broached the subject and took this as yet another pretext for getting rid of a damaged Sheila as he saw it,and the twins in that case would have to be disposed of too to make things neater so Uncle Jeremy would not be bothering with them in the aftermath when probate was granted.

PS. The statement is on page 93 if the link doesn't work.

[susan]

Morning Maggie

everything word steve says about Julie is "hearsay" she did lots of charity work when she was younger for herself.

[Jane]

Hi Mike, I wonder if the extended rellies ever considered the possibility of suing certain medical practitioners for negligence because of their failure to take Sheila's illness and her delusional thoughts more seriously?? 
Had June and Nevill, social services et al been alerted maybe this tragedy could have been averted.  Sadly, JB has been nominated for the role of monster while others walk free continuing their lives into old age. 
If June or Neville had have been spared they may have felt the need to pursue these revelations further.  Part of the problem for Jeremy Bamber has always been the fact that his nearest and dearest died and other relations were happy enough to see him take the blame imo.

Maggie, you are so right. I have said here many times that had Sheila been my daughter I would have been far from accepting of the treatment and lack of care she received. Such an irony that the care shown her by surviving relatives was more about the capital they would gain from her death that seeking justice for the negligence of her care.

[lookout]

N.B.........A snippet of news was given out this morning about mental illness/depression,and the answer was that there aren't enough trained professionals dealing with the subject ( this is 2013 ) and as a consequence,still not enough is known about the illness and how it develops. Research is very sketchy.
It starts with depression and the repercussions can be,and are fatal in a lot of cases. Because it's a hidden illness as we all know,it's virtually impossible to diagnose if the patient hides the fact that there's anything wrong.
There are pointers if you look out for them,,but even close family members can be hard-pushed to recognise them,,particularly if they start at puberty,and are pushed aside as " mood swings " of growing up.
On the surface people can appear " normal ",but behind that facade there is a troubled person.

[Steve_uk]

Hi Mike, I wonder if the extended rellies ever considered the possibility of suing certain medical practitioners for negligence because of their failure to take Sheila's illness and her delusional thoughts more seriously?? 
Had June and Nevill, social services et al been alerted maybe this tragedy could have been averted.  Sadly, JB has been nominated for the role of monster while others walk free continuing their lives into old age. 
If June or Neville had have been spared they may have felt the need to pursue these revelations further.  Part of the problem for Jeremy Bamber has always been the fact that his nearest and dearest died and other relations were happy enough to see him take the blame imo.

..and Jeremy was so upset his nearest and dearest had died,wasn't he..cracking vulgar jokes at the funerals,keeping a woman out in the pouring rain telling her to use another funeral car,expressing the view he was glad June was dead but "I do miss the old man occasionally". It's Colin who is serving the life sentence and to some extent Ann Eaton who lost her aunt,and of course those five victims who lie six feet under and who cannot speak for themselves.

[maggie]

But Colin met with Dr. Ferguson who told him Sheila was no danger to the children or herself. You can read this here:http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1560.0.html

 I have read that Colin invited Jeremy to the party on the Saturday before the murders so he could ask Jeremy if he would discuss with his parents about a possible change of treatment for Sheila. I believe Jeremy never broached the subject and took this as yet another pretext for getting rid of a damaged Sheila as he saw it,and the twins in that case would have to be disposed of too to make things neater so Uncle Jeremy would not be bothering with them in the aftermath when probate was granted.

If Colin asked Jeremy to broach such a subject with June and Nevill, he may or may not have taken any notice of it, he was no doubt far more interested in his own stuff than anyone else's at the age of 24. 
We must also remember it was harvest time and therefore there was probably very little time for a conversation from the following weekend to their deaths. 
We also don't know if he did broach the subject with the Bambers, they are not here to answer that question and even if Jeremy can remember, who would believe him?
Just because you believe a theory you have devised Steve, that doesn't make it true....the most it can be is a possibility.  That's the most anyone's thoughts on the forum can be only facts can tell the real truth and there are precious few of those............sadly.   

[Steve_uk]

Steve I was speaking hypothetically and you know that.

An apology will never do. 

How do you know she has had nightmares?  Even if she says she has, it doesn't mean she has imo

She should surely do charity work because she wants to help children not to make herself feel better.

I'm not speaking about Jeremy, I'm speaking about Julie Mugford's part in all this.

As you say you can't take Julie in isolation and if her testimony is true then Jeremy is guilty. I've even read one thread on this forum declaring Julie guilty because her surname happens to be Mugford.