Effects of absentee children or parents on family relationships.

[Steve_uk]

The topic was always in my mind and has of course been discussed on other threads:the psychological effect of breaking the bond with one's biological parents,then having to adapt to new parents,the separation felt by Sheila and Jeremy as they were packed off to public school. The cases which came to mind were Shirley Bassey and her daughter Samantha,Donald Campbell and Gina,Winston Churchill and son Randolph.

Is it possible that children of famous or strong-willed parents go off the rails more frequently than the children or Mr.or Mrs. Average? Is the absence of a role model in the child's life decisive as they grow up? Did Jeremy drift apart from his parents through his experience at Gresham's and the expectations of a something-for-nothing culture..would Sheila have turned out differently had she attended the local school or was she destined to end up a single mother? Did Randolph Churchill's drinking problem stem from the weight of expectation from the son of a Prime Minister that he simply couldn't live up to?

Or is the society and its peer pressure more a determining factor than any of this? Had Jeremy and Sheila grown up in the austere post-war years would she have settled down to marry the local star of Maldon Tennis Club and Jeremy married the daughter of a local landowner? Or did the Dallas and Dynasty culture of the 1980s rub off on both of them and make them aspire to more than they as individuals were capable of achieving? Is there a lesson here that people can be happier with less,or is there an aspiration in all of us which involves taking risks and can,in the extreme case of Jeremy Bamber lead to tragedy?

[Jane]

Before I make an attempt at what I imagine will be a lengthy response, may I congratulate and thank you for an excellent and thought provoking post

[maggie]

Before I make an attempt at what I imagine will be a lengthy response, may I congratulate and thank you for an excellent and thought provoking post

I agree April...there are many questions within that question steve. Massive subject. ....off you go April.

[Steve_uk]

Before I make an attempt at what I imagine will be a lengthy response, may I congratulate and thank you for an excellent and thought provoking post

The post could go so many different ways,or it could be a damp squib april1. To stick with Jeremy for a moment,his comments to Charles Marsden about everything being his should the farm burn down at Christmas 1984,and his admission to Anthony Arlidge QC at trial that the motive for the Osea Road Caravan Park was "greed",suggest that money was very much to the forefront of Jeremy's mind,whether you consider him a mass murderer or not..

[Caroline R]

The post could go so many different ways,or it could be a damp squib april1. To stick with Jeremy for a moment,his comments to Charles Marsden about everything being his should the farm burn down at Christmas 1984,and his admission to Anthony Arlidge QC at trial that the motive for the Osea Road Caravan Park was "greed",suggest that money was very much to the forefront of Jeremy's mind,whether you consider him a mass murderer or not..

LOL, you almost managed to change the subject .

[Steve_uk]

The post could go so many different ways,or it could be a damp squib april1. To stick with Jeremy for a moment,his comments to Charles Marsden about everything being his should the farm burn down at Christmas 1984,and his admission to Anthony Arlidge QC at trial that the motive for the Osea Road Caravan Park was "greed",suggest that money was very much to the forefront of Jeremy's mind,whether you consider him a mass murderer or not..

LOL, you almost managed to change the subject .

Well this is the Jeremy Bamber forum not the Shirley Bassey forum. Thinking of Barbara Wilson's take on this she lauds June and Nevill whom she says both put themselves out to a large degree for Jeremy and Sheila. I still don't have a mental picture of Barbara in my head or I would write one of my scenarios..

[Jane]

I will say, from the outset, that the only perspective I have on this topic is my own, and it is from there that I speak.

I have kept no pictures of myself as a child. That it was a very unhappy time is reflected in them. I was a little older than Sheila and Jeremy when I was given new parents. I apparently opened my 12 week old eyes, looked at my new mother and screamed. It wasn't known then, but by 12 weeks a baby knows its' mothers voice, her smell, her touch and the reassurance of her arms. I'd gone to sleep looking at my mother and woken up looking at a stranger.

I can say truthfully that I never felt as if I belonged. I didn't seem to fit and I didn't know who I really was. I knew what I was supposed to be, but I couldn't be that person. I knew what was expected of me, but I couldn't do it. My mother frequently told me her life would have been so much better if she hadn't adopted me. Do I miss my birth mother? I doubt that she could have loved me less than my adopted mother did, so yes, but I don't know what it is that I miss, because I don't know what it feels like to have a mothers love.

We're back now to the age old and infinite nature/nurture debate. I imagine that the Bambers, like my parents had certain hopes and expectation of their children. If they were in any way disappointed that those expectations weren't met, so too, I feel, were Sheila and Jeremy disappointed that they were unable to please their parents, but as it's not possible to make a potential opera singer into a nurse/companion, it's equally impossible to to turn a wouldbe model and business man into part of the county set.

It is very possible that as they were sent so far away to school, Sheila and Jeremy may have felt themselves to be less than satisfactory children. Neither child seems to have been overly happy at school but whilst Jeremy appears to have made the best of it, Sheila managed to get her school changed. Might they have been better off attending local schools? Psychologically, I think so. Educationally, if they had felt more secure, they may have done better.

Sociology must play a part. As we moved towards the 80s the were dramatic changes taking place. Tennis Clubs and Young Farmers Balls started to give way to brighter, brasher and more dangerous pastimes. Sheila and Jeremy had previously cushioned by background and education. Neither went on to Higher education, more Further education and would have found themselves in a completely different world, mixing with people who at first may have seemed alien to them, and maybe STILL wondering were they fitted in.

Can we be happier with less? I certainly could have been happier with less in the way of "Things" and more in the way of affection. No child is capable of intellectualizing. It can't understand that "Things" are a parents way of showing love. From memory, the fascination of a new "Thing" that I'd neither wanted nor asked for, didn't last long, but the memory of kisses and hugs would have.

There is no such thing as a perfect parent, nor should there be. Good enough is just fine. Adopted parents come in as many ways as birth parents. Adopted parents may feel the world is more critical of them than birth parents and that can't make the hardest job in the world any easier. Despite my experience, I believe adoption is a good thing, rich and rewarding for parent and child.............but however loving the adopted parent, the Primal Wound the child has suffered, whilst not causing unendurable pain, will never heal.

[maggie]

Very moving April and from my knowledge very true.
Parents do come in different shapes and sizes adoptive or natural good or indifferent, bad.

The deepest cause of pain no matter what is the primal wound which as you say cannot be healed....it can with love be eased but the scars remain. I believex

[Caroline R]

I will say, from the outset, that the only perspective I have on this topic is my own, and it is from there that I speak.

I have kept no pictures of myself as a child. That it was a very unhappy time is reflected in them. I was a little older than Sheila and Jeremy when I was given new parents. I apparently opened my 12 week old eyes, looked at my new mother and screamed. It wasn't known then, but by 12 weeks a baby knows its' mothers voice, her smell, her touch and the reassurance of her arms. I'd gone to sleep looking at my mother and woken up looking at a stranger.

I can say truthfully that I never felt as if I belonged. I didn't seem to fit and I didn't know who I really was. I knew what I was supposed to be, but I couldn't be that person. I knew what was expected of me, but I couldn't do it. My mother frequently told me her life would have been so much better if she hadn't adopted me. Do I miss my birth mother? I doubt that she could have loved me less than my adopted mother did, so yes, but I don't know what it is that I miss, because I don't know what it feels like to have a mothers love.

We're back now to the age old and infinite nature/nurture debate. I imagine that the Bambers, like my parents had certain hopes and expectation of their children. If they were in any way disappointed that those expectations weren't met, so too, I feel, were Sheila and Jeremy disappointed that they were unable to please their parents, but as it's not possible to make a potential opera singer into a nurse/companion, it's equally impossible to to turn a wouldbe model and business man into part of the county set.

It is very possible that as they were sent so far away to school, Sheila and Jeremy may have felt themselves to be less than satisfactory children. Neither child seems to have been overly happy at school but whilst Jeremy appears to have made the best of it, Sheila managed to get her school changed. Might they have been better off attending local schools? Psychologically, I think so. Educationally, if they had felt more secure, they may have done better.

Sociology must play a part. As we moved towards the 80s the were dramatic changes taking place. Tennis Clubs and Young Farmers Balls started to give way to brighter, brasher and more dangerous pastimes. Sheila and Jeremy had previously cushioned by background and education. Neither went on to Higher education, more Further education and would have found themselves in a completely different world, mixing with people who at first may have seemed alien to them, and maybe STILL wondering were they fitted in.

Can we be happier with less? I certainly could have been happier with less in the way of "Things" and more in the way of affection. No child is capable of intellectualizing. It can't understand that "Things" are a parents way of showing love. From memory, the fascination of a new "Thing" that I'd neither wanted nor asked for, didn't last long, but the memory of kisses and hugs would have.

There is no such thing as a perfect parent, nor should there be. Good enough is just fine. Adopted parents come in as many ways as birth parents. Adopted parents may feel the world is more critical of them than birth parents and that can't make the hardest job in the world any easier. Despite my experience, I believe adoption is a good thing, rich and rewarding for parent and child.............but however loving the adopted parent, the Primal Wound the child has suffered, whilst not causing unendurable pain, will never heal.

Very moving and very well written April.

[lookout]

I personally wouldn't have said it was,or is, anyones' fault how children turn out whether adoptees' or not.
It's in a childs' make-up,no matter how good or bad any guidance was given,as there are good and bad in biological families of those who are " well off " against those who aren't.

As soon as a child is old enough to understand,they all know right from wrong.One of the first lessons learned either at home or at kindy,and it all depends on which path they take. Any child will nearly always do the opposite to what you tell,or ask them,just to try your patience and see how far they can push you.

A lot of behaviour is genetic,and no amount of moulding that child into something you want it to be,will have, or make any difference.

Where did Sheila get her promiscuity from.? It certainly wasn't June or Neville,and no doubt they tried their best in bringing up both children,,but just because they were adopted is no excuse,as biological children can pick up a rogue gene from a previous generation.
So because they were adopted doesn't mean a thing,for as tiny babies,they weren't aware.

Boarding school for any child can be a bad emotional experience away from parents. Again,,it does depend on the child,as some children settle quite happily,but Sheila,like a lot of others did not settle and proved to have a lasting effect on her as a person. Sheila may have been a wilful child who didn't like conformity or discipline,and as she became mature,sought outlets for her feelings.

What I'm saying is that it isn't only those who are adopted that suffer these pitfalls in life.It can,,and does happen to anyone. It's the separation in any family which is damaging to most children.

To be perfectly honest,,I don't know how any parent can send their children away,under any circumstances. It's pointless to say it's because of the education, etc.but if the child is unhappy,it can only brew trouble for its future and will naturally rebel.
Sheila may well have been happier at state school, without her future having been mapped out for her.

June and Neville had obviously thought they were doing the right thing.With Jeremy they did,but poor Sheila was just on a downward spiral,with sadly,no thanks to June and her religious mania. Though she probably thought it would have helped.   

I knew a teenager a few years ago,who a lot would have said would have been a no-hoper with two alcoholic parents.But this lad attended school and did so well that he gained a place at University and he now lives in the States,pretty wealthy,as he went into Real Estate.
This lad was the poorest of the poor but was determined to get out of the family home,so kept his head down and got stuck in with his lessons,,and succeeded. He could easily have gone the way his parents went,but chose not to. So whether rich or poor,everyone has a chance in life and it's whether you're determined to see it through or not.

I don't know what Sheilas' mother did in the way of employment,,but whatever it was,Sheila didn't follow in her footsteps.     

[Patti]

Excellent post april, got me in tears.  (((((((hugs)))))) to you because that is what I would do if you were stood here with me...xxxxx

[Patti]

Oddly enough I was watching an hour long special about Mary Bell. She was 11 years old when she murdered two children back in the 60's. 

She lived in poverty at the time. Her father was a drunk and her mother a prostitute.  Mary had endured sleeping in the same room as her mother when she brought clients back and must have witnessed some awful stuff....

Mary was an intelligent girl, she was a good scholar at school, but her life of poverty and her parents antics, had an effect on her life.  Mary became a bully at school. 

At 11 the state did not know what to do with her after she was found guilty of the said crimes, so they put her into school....Mary prospered from that and later at the age of 23 years old was no longer thought a threat to society...She was released.  4 years later she gave birth and she is now a grandmother......She also fought a battle in court to have her and her child new identities kept secret and she won.....

[Jane]

Excellent post april, got me in tears.  (((((((hugs)))))) to you because that is what I would do if you were stood here with me...xxxxx

Thankyou, lovely Patti. I've just raised my glass to you. xxxxx

[Patti]

Oddly enough I was watching an hour long special about Mary Bell. She was 11 years old when she murdered two children back in the 60's. 

She lived in poverty at the time. Her father was a drunk and her mother a prostitute.  Mary had endured sleeping in the same room as her mother when she brought clients back and must have witnessed some awful stuff....

Mary was an intelligent girl, she was a good scholar at school, but her life of poverty and her parents antics, had an effect on her life.  Mary became a bully at school. 

At 11 the state did not know what to do with her after she was found guilty of the said crimes, so they put her into school....Mary prospered from that and later at the age of 23 years old was no longer thought a threat to society...She was released.  4 years later she gave birth and she is now a grandmother......She also fought a battle in court to have her and her child new identities kept secret and she won.....

By the way Mary always maintained her innocence and never admitted to her crimes and deemed by her psychiatrist a psychopath. 

[maggie]

Oddly enough I was watching an hour long special about Mary Bell. She was 11 years old when she murdered two children back in the 60's. 

She lived in poverty at the time. Her father was a drunk and her mother a prostitute.  Mary had endured sleeping in the same room as her mother when she brought clients back and must have witnessed some awful stuff....

Mary was an intelligent girl, she was a good scholar at school, but her life of poverty and her parents antics, had an effect on her life.  Mary became a bully at school. 

At 11 the state did not know what to do with her after she was found guilty of the said crimes, so they put her into school....Mary prospered from that and later at the age of 23 years old was no longer thought a threat to society...She was released.  4 years later she gave birth and she is now a grandmother......She also fought a battle in court to have her and her child new identities kept secret and she won.....

By the way Mary always maintained her innocence and never admitted to her crimes and deemed by her psychiatrist a psychopath.

I remember that case really well Patti and worked in the social services that dealt with her.  She developed into a well balanced adult.

Was she a psychopath or just an angry and abused child?  As psychopaths are born not made we should assume she was the latter, you cannot heal a psychopath.