starryian

[Buddy]

Moe, I concur re your Pipkins theory.  For a long time I held the image of Hartley Hare in my mind. 

I cant work out whether you are Shona or John. 

Anyway, re harvey aka 'hartley' but not the real one, I can confirm I pm'd them when they first posted (re the name they had taken) but never received a response and they never posted again, until this thread.

Buddy I can confirm that Jam is the real hartley.

Call Sue Barker, and the bazooka

[maggie]

I'm not getting you at all on this one I'm afraid.  Starryian takes it upon himself to wax lyrical about Jeremy's psychopathy without any evidence whatsoever, other than an excerpt from the Wilkes book relayed to this forum by Vic, which was then seized upon by ex members of this forum, such as Shona / Andrea etc.  Now I'm not downplaying the Wilkes book... but that anecdote is hardly the same as what has now become known about Sheila caffell, re her mental health.

The fact is roch, that psychopathy/sociopathy etc is incredibly difficult to recognise in someone without highly sophisticated tests.  It's unlikely that anyone would have the faintest idea if someone they knew was a psychopath, it is part of their condition that they hide it so well. No one could ever tell a psychopath b y just assessing from a distance eventhough some people like to say they can.  The majority of psychopaths don't kill anyway, they are too clever to waste themselves like that. Only failed psychopaths kill if you see what I mean.

[Jane]

Buddy, I am Hartley, Susan chose my name for me on the forum (a twist on Hartleys Jam), it was better than some which could have been suggested.

I'm sorry if you are offended or have been misled in any way.
[/quote)


The Jam, perhaps you should award yourself an upgrade to Wilkins, definitely "The" Jam.

[maggie]

I'm not splitting hairs at all, I'm simply pointing out that your summary only included those elements that support your stance and ignored the others. Of course a lay person is ill eqipped to judge, which is the point I'm making. This thread was started to attack starryian for doing exactly what people here do day in day out.

Bridget, that's not true that I only included elements that support my stance.  I don't believe anything is set in stone and have often stated there are many areas to this case that we'll never know eventhough people like to suppose all sorts of things.  Anyone knowing her medical history would suspect she was responsible.  Ok, we don't know for definite that she did it but you seem to think you can be definite that Jeremy did it....so what's the difference.

[Buddy]

Buddy, I am Hartley, Susan chose my name for me on the forum (a twist on Hartleys Jam), it was better than some which could have been suggested.

I'm sorry if you are offended or have been misled in any way.

OK harts. you have not offended me in the least. Nice to cross swords again.

[maggie]

Thank you Maggie I have lots of questions I need to ask him. Sheila's state of mind that final week is so important when you consider the lead up to the murders. I don't think anyone was close enough to Sheila to notice how desperate she had become.

Yes, ellie I agree with you. Unfortunately, it seems Sheila was all alone or felt all alone with no one understanding her predicament.  Very possibly her illness would isolate her as schizophrenics find it so difficult to have relationships due to their inability to trust and interact.  Good luck with Jeremy.

[Bridget]

Bridget, that's not true that I only included elements that support my stance.  I don't believe anything is set in stone and have often stated there are many areas to this case that we'll never know eventhough people like to suppose all sorts of things.  Anyone knowing her medical history would suspect she was responsible.  Ok, we don't know for definite that she did it but you seem to think you can be definite that Jeremy did it....so what's the difference.

Well I pointed out 2 elements that you left out. I'm saying that I believe Jeremy did it, I'm not saying he's a psychopath. I have no idea whether he is, I've never met him and I'm not a psychiatrist. Knowing Sheila's medical history and suspecting that she did it is one thing, but proclaiming that she must have done it because of her illness is a completely different kettle of fish.

[maggie]

Well I pointed out 2 elements that you left out. I'm saying that I believe Jeremy did it, I'm not saying he's a psychopath. I have no idea whether he is, I've never met him and I'm not a psychiatrist. Knowing Sheila's medical history and suspecting that she did it is one thing, but proclaiming that she must have done it because of her illness is a completely different kettle of fish.

Are you speaking to me or is that a general comment, I find it very hard to believe that Jeremy did it for many reasons.  I suspect strongly that it was Sheila, it may even have been a third party. To claim anyone MUST have done it is a mistake we have no proof at this point in time. 
I wonder what your reasoning is that makes you so sure that Jeremy did it, rather than Sheila, apart from the fact that he was found guilty eventhough you are aware of many miscarriages of justice.

[Moe Cassani]

Well I pointed out 2 elements that you left out. I'm saying that I believe Jeremy did it, I'm not saying he's a psychopath. I have no idea whether he is, I've never met him and I'm not a psychiatrist. Knowing Sheila's medical history and suspecting that she did it is one thing, but proclaiming that she must have done it because of her illness is a completely different kettle of fish.

Bridget if you think Bamber did it............this means that he has lied, manipulated  and murdered his own family including two six year old boys for which he showed no guilt or remorse. Now if he did do it.........you do not need a psychiatrist to tell you that he is a psychopath. He would be a  textbook version..........IF he did it.

[Moe Cassani]

Are you speaking to me or is that a general comment, I find it very hard to believe that Jeremy did it for many reasons.  I suspect strongly that it was Sheila, it may even have been a third party. To claim anyone MUST have done it is a mistake we have no proof at this point in time. 
I wonder what your reasoning is that makes you so sure that Jeremy did it, rather than Sheila, apart from the fact that he was found guilty eventhough you are aware of many miscarriages of justice.

Maggie may I point one fact out that you are probably aware of. It was Jeremy Bamber who phoned police to say that his father had phoned him and told him that his sister 'had gone crazy and has got the gun' This effectively means that there can be no third party involvement and it effectively means that it the culprit can be ONLY Sheila or Jeremy.
There is no third way here Maggie. The culpriit was certainly one of these two.

[maggie]

Maggie may I point one fact out that you are probably aware of. It was Jeremy Bamber who phoned police to say that his father had phoned him and told him that his sister 'had gone crazy and has got the gun' This effectively means that there can be no third party involvement and it effectively means that it the culprit can be ONLY Sheila or Jeremy.
There is no third way here Maggie. The culpriit was certainly one of these two.

Actually Moe, eventhough I'm not particularly advocating a third party there are possibilities.  For a start do we know that Jeremy waking from a deep sleep accepted that it was his father who rang him in a state of anxiety asking for help.  There is a possibility that Jeremy heard words from a voice which was like his father saying words he recognised would only come from his father convincing him it was Ralph on the phone...it may not have been, the power of suggestion is very strong.  Lots of people as witnesses swear they saw things that they couldn't have possibly seen. 

[maggie]

Bridget if you think Bamber did it............this means that he has lied, manipulated  and murdered his own family including two six year old boys for which he showed no guilt or remorse. Now if he did do it.........you do not need a psychiatrist to tell you that he is a psychopath. He would be a  textbook version..........IF he did it.

But as they say he isn't where does that leave you.  I find it impossible to believe that a peson who didn't have a personality dissorder of some kind could coldly carry out such a crime.

[Moe Cassani]

I'm not getting you at all on this one I'm afraid.  Starryian takes it upon himself to wax lyrical about Jeremy's psychopathy without any evidence whatsoever, other than an excerpt from the Wilkes book relayed to this forum by Vic, which was then seized upon by ex members of this forum, such as Shona / Andrea etc.  Now I'm not downplaying the Wilkes book... but that anecdote is hardly the same as what has now become known about Sheila caffell, re her mental health.

Roch from what I gather, starryian bases it on the notion that he is guilty (which I am not sure about). If he did I would bet my bottom dollar Bamber definitely is..

[Roch]

Nothing more has become known about Sheila's mental health - she's dead, it's all just theories. Of course she might have had a psychotic episode etc., that was hardly a ground breaking discovery in the world of scizophrenic research even in 1985, but there's no evidence that she did.

I haven't read Wilkes book yet, what excerpt?

So there is absolutely nothing that has come to light in relation to Sheila's mental health, that was not already disclosed or known about in 1985/6?  Is that your argument?

Apparently Rivlin was depressed going in to trial because an eminent shrink had assessed Bamber as being a psychopath.  I think he referred to Bamber as being convinved he had no involvement.  Perhaps the shrink in question was told by Stan that there definitely hadn't been a phone call from WHF to Goldhangar?  (I'm being flippant).

[maggie]

Roch from what I gather, starryian bases it on the notion that he is guilty (which I am not sure about). If he did I would bet my bottom dollar Bamber definitely is..

Well this is the point Moe, if he isn't a psychopath as has been proved he has no personality dissorder unless he has something which has never come to light before he can't be guilty because I cannot see that a person of warmth, love and feeling could possibly perpitrate such a horrendous crime to the people who had cared for him since he was a tiny baby.