Author Topic: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...  (Read 8100 times)

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Offline Kaldin

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Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
« Reply #75 on: February 03, 2011, 10:46:AM »
Remind me -

Hadn't Ralph taken a beating with the butt end of the rifle?
Didn't the butt end of the rifle get broken?

The rifle did get broken, but it's not clear how.

From the Appeal document:

Quote
The stock was damaged, with a piece of wood missing. The broken piece of wood found on the floor in the kitchen was the missing part of the stock.

bb2010

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Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
« Reply #76 on: February 03, 2011, 11:05:AM »
Thanks Kaldin

Yes, had another look at the appeal document and it answers my question. Paragraphs 41 & 42

"There were two wounds to the right side and two to the top of the head. If not immediately fatal, the combined effect of these four injuries would have been immediate unconsciousness and incapacitation. There was a wound to the left side of the lip and another to the left part of the lower jaw. This injury caused severe fracturing of the jaw, of the teeth in that area and damaged soft tissue in the neck and the larynx. These features of this particular injury and the resultant flow of blood into the mouth meant, in the pathologist's opinion, that Nevill Bamber would not have been able to engage in purposeful talk. There were also gunshot wounds to the left shoulder and a grazing wound above the left elbow.
The examination of Nevill Bamber's body also revealed black eyes and a broken nose, linear bruising to the cheeks, lacerations to the head, linear type bruising to the right forearm, bruising to the left wrist and forearm and three circular burn type marks to the back. The linear marks were consistent with Mr Bamber having been struck with a long blunt object, possibly a gun."

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
« Reply #77 on: February 03, 2011, 11:13:AM »
I'm not saying that Neville wasn't hit with the gun, but if the piece of wood got broken when he was struck with it, that must have been a very severe blow, unless the wood was already a bit loose.  Is it not more likely that the piece of wood broke off when a solid piece of furniture was struck during the struggle?

If it did happen when Neville was struck, it sounds as if the gun was turned round at some point and the butt was used to attack him.


Offline cazbub

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Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
« Reply #78 on: February 03, 2011, 12:01:PM »
Right, I'm getting confused now. It seems as though Sheila and Ralth were running up and down the stairs, seems very odd! Surely if your daughter had "gone berserk" with a gun, you wouldn't be faffing about running up and down the stairs whilst she's reloading the guns she's already been shooting with.

With regard to the butt of the gun, the attacker would surely have used it when there is no ammunition left in the gun, to knock Neville out in order to reload it? Just a thought.

bb2010

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Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
« Reply #79 on: February 03, 2011, 12:12:PM »
Remember that 'daughter gone beserk' is only something that Jeremy said that Ralph said.


Offline cazbub

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Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
« Reply #80 on: February 03, 2011, 12:15:PM »
Yes, true. But if Sheila was in the house with a gun, surely Neville wouldnt be leaving his wife on her own and letting Sheila out of his sight. Whether she'd been shooting or not she was clearly mentally unstable.

bb2010

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Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
« Reply #81 on: February 03, 2011, 12:33:PM »
Perhaps Ralph didn't have a choice?

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
« Reply #82 on: February 03, 2011, 01:32:PM »
Right, I'm getting confused now. It seems as though Sheila and Ralth were running up and down the stairs, seems very odd! Surely if your daughter had "gone berserk" with a gun, you wouldn't be faffing about running up and down the stairs whilst she's reloading the guns she's already been shooting with.

With regard to the butt of the gun, the attacker would surely have used it when there is no ammunition left in the gun, to knock Neville out in order to reload it? Just a thought.

Absolutely. This is something I can't get my head round. If Neville had been found in the bedroom with June it would all be so much easier but he wasn't. He was in the kitchen when he died, but there were only four cartridges there, so at some point he was shot elsewhere - in the bedroom according to the reports.

The butt of the gun could have been used for that purpose, but even so - would that break the butt?

bb2010

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Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
« Reply #83 on: February 03, 2011, 01:48:PM »
We know he was in his pyjamas when found in the kitchen. If we assume that he started upstairs, and may have been shot there, how many bullet cases do we need to find?

For example, we know that there were gunshot wounds to his left shoulder. Do we know how many? Do we know if the grazing wound above the left elbow was caused by a bullet?


Offline Kaldin

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Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
« Reply #84 on: February 03, 2011, 02:34:PM »
We know he was in his pyjamas when found in the kitchen. If we assume that he started upstairs, and may have been shot there, how many bullet cases do we need to find?

For example, we know that there were gunshot wounds to his left shoulder. Do we know how many? Do we know if the grazing wound above the left elbow was caused by a bullet?

He had eight bullet wounds altogether. As I understand it, these were:

Right side of head - 2
Top of head - 2
Lip - 1
Jaw - 1
Left shoulder - 1 or 2.

I'm not sure about the last one either because in the Appeal document it says this:

Quote
There were also gunshot wounds to the left shoulder and a grazing wound above the left elbow.


That implies there was more than one shot to his left shoulder, but it also implies that one of the shots grazed his arm just above the elbow.

In any case, he had eight wounds from the gun. Four cartridges were found in the kitchen (including one on the back stairs), so four of the shots were in the kitchen. In the bedroom they found 13 cartridges, so he was presumably shot four times there as well.


bb2010

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Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
« Reply #85 on: February 03, 2011, 02:39:PM »
So can we assume that he took four non fatal shots in the bedroom and either made it downstairs by himself or was forced downstairs by the shooter? Remember he may be being held by the shooter when he is in the bedroom (ref the gouge marks on his arm).

Do we then need him to go back upstairs again?
« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 02:42:PM by bb2010 »

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
« Reply #86 on: February 03, 2011, 02:49:PM »
So can we assume that he took four non fatal shots in the bedroom and either made it downstairs by himself or was forced downstairs by the shooter? Remember he may be being held by the shooter when he is in the bedroom (ref the gouge marks on his arm).

Do we then need him to go back upstairs again?

Well I have assumed that he was shot four times first in the bedroom, then he was shot four times in the kitchen where he died. It doesn't make sense any other way.

However, according to Mike, he was shot at least once in the kitchen before he was shot in the bedroom. Now that really confuses me.  ???

bb2010

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Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
« Reply #87 on: February 03, 2011, 02:50:PM »
And me.

Offline cazbub

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Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
« Reply #88 on: February 03, 2011, 04:06:PM »
And me!

With those gunshot wounds, one would assume that with wounds to a shoulder/arm he would be able to get donstairs easily enough, whether by himself or forced by the killer. But if there were two other shots in the bedroom, where did these ones hit? Which were the fatal wounds he recieved, to the head I assume?

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
« Reply #89 on: February 03, 2011, 04:22:PM »
And me!

With those gunshot wounds, one would assume that with wounds to a shoulder/arm he would be able to get donstairs easily enough, whether by himself or forced by the killer. But if there were two other shots in the bedroom, where did these ones hit? Which were the fatal wounds he recieved, to the head I assume?

It was said that the head wounds were fatal in combination, so I don't know if each one would have killed one.

If he was shot four times upstairs in the shoulder and face, he could have gone to the kitchen - he couldn't have phoned anyone though - he couldn't speak.

This alleged double marked bullet in the kitchen has really thrown a spanner in the works.