Author Topic: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...  (Read 8942 times)

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Offline mike tesko

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Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
« Reply #45 on: February 02, 2011, 07:58:PM »


(2) as for Sheila having bled all the say upstairs, after, and if, she had been shot downstairs, beforehand - it is not true that there would necessarily be any blood spilled on the route taken by Sheila, if the wound had developed a clotted plug of dried blood which sealed the bullet wound entry hole. It would only take some 10 to 15 minutes or so, for the wound to the side of her neck to stop bleeding, and the entry hole to become sealed by a plug of clotted blood, and if that is what happened there would not be any blood pouring out all over the place, contaminating everything and anything in Sheila's wake, en route to the bedroom upstairs...


But would you agree though that for blood to clot sufficiently to stop any kind of bleeding from a gun shot wound, the wound would have to be left alone to clot.
I've cut my finger whilst cutting, fallen over and cut my knee, banged my head and low ceilings... grabbing the injured area for the majority of people is a basic natural reflex.
Its hard to accept (although I'm not saying its not what happened) that after taking a bullet to the neck the victim didn't interfere with the wound and just left it to clot.
Just an opinion as the whole scenario is speculation.
------------------------------------------------------------

I agree that it would be a natural instinctive reaction, for someone in Sheila's position, at the time she was shot in the side of the neck (bullet PV/20 - the original fragmented bullet), to force one of her hands or the fingers of one of her hands, onto and into the location or place where she was shot in the throat...

This is precisely the point I have been trying to make, since I feel that Sheila did precisely that at the time she was initially shot in the neck at a time when she was downstairs in the region of the kitchen...

I strongly suspect / believe, that when Sheila tried to take her own life (and failed) downstairs, that the fingers of her right hand, went immediately to the position on her neck where the bullet had penetrated the surface of the skin, and she pressed her fingers against, or over, or upon, the non fatal bullet entry wound, as she lay upon her right side, and that blood ran down the fingers of her right hand, and other parts of her hand, including the top part of her right hand, and pooled in the fold of her arm, and thus stained the top right hand side of her nightdress, whilst she then may have become temporarily unconscious, and over a period of time, say half an hour or more, or at least certainly just, after 8:10am, and by that stage, the non fatal wound had become sealed with a plug of clotted blood which prevented any further blood leaking, or running, or pouring from it, so that when she did regain consciousness, later, and she stood up, and walked about, and made her way upstairs to the main bedroom, that no blood from the original wound dripped or leaked or poured onto any carpet or article as she made her way en route to the main bedroom, to prove or confirm that she did make that journey...

No-one as yet provided a detailed explanation for how and when the triangular bloodstain got there on the top right side of her nightdress, well this is my explanation for how this could have happened...

"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
« Reply #46 on: February 02, 2011, 08:04:PM »


(2) as for Sheila having bled all the say upstairs, after, and if, she had been shot downstairs, beforehand - it is not true that there would necessarily be any blood spilled on the route taken by Sheila, if the wound had developed a clotted plug of dried blood which sealed the bullet wound entry hole. It would only take some 10 to 15 minutes or so, for the wound to the side of her neck to stop bleeding, and the entry hole to become sealed by a plug of clotted blood, and if that is what happened there would not be any blood pouring out all over the place, contaminating everything and anything in Sheila's wake, en route to the bedroom upstairs...


But would you agree though that for blood to clot sufficiently to stop any kind of bleeding from a gun shot wound, the wound would have to be left alone to clot.
I've cut my finger whilst cutting, fallen over and cut my knee, banged my head and low ceilings... grabbing the injured area for the majority of people is a basic natural reflex.
Its hard to accept (although I'm not saying its not what happened) that after taking a bullet to the neck the victim didn't interfere with the wound and just left it to clot.
Just an opinion as the whole scenario is speculation.
------------------------------------------------------------

I agree that it would be a natural instinctive reaction, for someone in Sheila's position, at the time she was shot in the side of the neck (bullet PV/20 - the original fragmented bullet), to force one of her hands or the fingers of one of her hands, onto and into the location or place where she was shot in the throat...

This is precisely the point I have been trying to make, since I feel that Sheila did precisely that at the time she was initially shot in the neck at a time when she was downstairs in the region of the kitchen...

I strongly suspect / believe, that when Sheila tried to take her own life (and failed) downstairs, that the fingers of her right hand, went immediately to the position on her neck where the bullet had penetrated the surface of the skin, and she pressed her fingers against, or over, or upon, the non fatal bullet entry wound, as she lay upon her right side, and that blood ran down the fingers of her right hand, and other parts of her hand, including the top part of her right hand, and pooled in the fold of her arm, and thus stained the top right hand side of her nightdress, whilst she then may have become temporarily unconscious, and over a period of time, say half an hour or more, or at least certainly just, after 8:10am, and by that stage, the non fatal wound had become sealed with a plug of clotted blood which prevented any further blood leaking, or running, or pouring from it, so that when she did regain consciousness, later, and she stood up, and walked about, and made her way upstairs to the main bedroom, that no blood from the original wound dripped or leaked or poured onto any carpet or article as she made her way en route to the main bedroom, to prove or confirm that she did make that journey...

No-one as yet provided a detailed explanation for how and when the triangular bloodstain got there on the top right side of her nightdress, well this is my explanation for how this could have happened...

I would expect her to have put up her left hand as it's kind of awkward using your right hand - try it.

I agree that the triangular blood stain is odd - as if she was sitting up slightly and leaning to the right when she was shot. Perhaps she was and then slid to the floor later.

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
« Reply #47 on: February 02, 2011, 08:47:PM »


(2) as for Sheila having bled all the say upstairs, after, and if, she had been shot downstairs, beforehand - it is not true that there would necessarily be any blood spilled on the route taken by Sheila, if the wound had developed a clotted plug of dried blood which sealed the bullet wound entry hole. It would only take some 10 to 15 minutes or so, for the wound to the side of her neck to stop bleeding, and the entry hole to become sealed by a plug of clotted blood, and if that is what happened there would not be any blood pouring out all over the place, contaminating everything and anything in Sheila's wake, en route to the bedroom upstairs...


But would you agree though that for blood to clot sufficiently to stop any kind of bleeding from a gun shot wound, the wound would have to be left alone to clot.
I've cut my finger whilst cutting, fallen over and cut my knee, banged my head and low ceilings... grabbing the injured area for the majority of people is a basic natural reflex.
Its hard to accept (although I'm not saying its not what happened) that after taking a bullet to the neck the victim didn't interfere with the wound and just left it to clot.
Just an opinion as the whole scenario is speculation.
------------------------------------------------------------

I agree that it would be a natural instinctive reaction, for someone in Sheila's position, at the time she was shot in the side of the neck (bullet PV/20 - the original fragmented bullet), to force one of her hands or the fingers of one of her hands, onto and into the location or place where she was shot in the throat...

This is precisely the point I have been trying to make, since I feel that Sheila did precisely that at the time she was initially shot in the neck at a time when she was downstairs in the region of the kitchen...

I strongly suspect / believe, that when Sheila tried to take her own life (and failed) downstairs, that the fingers of her right hand, went immediately to the position on her neck where the bullet had penetrated the surface of the skin, and she pressed her fingers against, or over, or upon, the non fatal bullet entry wound, as she lay upon her right side, and that blood ran down the fingers of her right hand, and other parts of her hand, including the top part of her right hand, and pooled in the fold of her arm, and thus stained the top right hand side of her nightdress, whilst she then may have become temporarily unconscious, and over a period of time, say half an hour or more, or at least certainly just, after 8:10am, and by that stage, the non fatal wound had become sealed with a plug of clotted blood which prevented any further blood leaking, or running, or pouring from it, so that when she did regain consciousness, later, and she stood up, and walked about, and made her way upstairs to the main bedroom, that no blood from the original wound dripped or leaked or poured onto any carpet or article as she made her way en route to the main bedroom, to prove or confirm that she did make that journey...

No-one as yet provided a detailed explanation for how and when the triangular bloodstain got there on the top right side of her nightdress, well this is my explanation for how this could have happened...

I would expect her to have put up her left hand as it's kind of awkward using your right hand - try it.

I agree that the triangular blood stain is odd - as if she was sitting up slightly and leaning to the right when she was shot. Perhaps she was and then slid to the floor later.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This was looked at in some detail in 2003, and the suggestion that Sheila could have used the fingers of her left hand to put them at the wound on the right side of her neck or throat, would have resulted in a differently configured bloodstain on the opposite side of her nightdress - if she used the fingers of her right hand, blood would run down along the fingers of her right hand or the right hand, and pool in to void which was cerated in the fold of her right hand, and stain the corresponding portion of her nightdress - this is almost certainly what did take place, she used the fingers of her right hand to grasp the non fatal wound on the right side of her neck, and this was the source for why and how the triangular bloodstain on the upper right hand side of her nightdress, came into being...

You are not telling me that the police at the scene, (and Later) did not realize the significance of that triangular bloodstain on the top right hand side of her nightdress, and wonder how it got there?

It could not have got there, if Sheila used the fingers of her left hand, because there is no blood at all on her left hand, and there is no corresponding bloodstain on the top left hand side of the nightdress. or across her chest, to support such a suggestion. What we have got, if we believe or accept that the police found Sheila's body, as it is shown, undisturbed on the bedroom floor, by the side of the bed, with the gun upon the body, is an anomaly relating to the position of the triangular bloodstain on the upper right hand side of her nightdress, that cannot be reconciled with any idea that she took her own life and her right hand ended up on the gun in the region of the trigger, if it had been holding the wound site on the right hand side of her neck, after she was fatally shot, in the main bedroom?

I hope I am making myself clear to you, when I say this...

Please explain to me, if you can, how Sheila could have used the fingers of her right hand, to clutch at the wound on her throat and by the time she fell back onto the floor (if this is what you believe) and that her right hand fell so conveniently upon the rifle in the region of the trigger, as shown in the stage managed photographs?

There is no other explanation which could account for the presence of the triangular bloodstain which can be seen on the top upper right of Sheila's nightdress, other then, Sheila did use the fingers of her right hand to grasp at the wound on her neck / throat, and this took place before she was fatally shot under the chin, and this bears out the fact that Sheila was not shot twice in quick succession, as alleged by the prosecution during Jeremy's trial...

The triangular bloodstain on the upper part of Sheila's nightdress is not linked or associated with the fatal wound she inflicted upon herself under the chin in the bedroom - the blood runs in a totally different direction than the direction of the blood which can be seen to be leaking, and running, and pouring, from the two wounds upon her throat and neck...

Sheila was shot once downstairs, and once upstairs, and what is more, the police substituted the fragmented bullet (PV/20) which wounded her downstairs, for a whole bullet, (PV/20), so that the ballistic expert, could link both bullets, to the same gun...



"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
« Reply #48 on: February 02, 2011, 10:20:PM »


This was looked at in some detail in 2003, and the suggestion that Sheila could have used the fingers of her left hand to put them at the wound on the right side of her neck or throat, would have resulted in a differently configured bloodstain on the opposite side of her nightdress - if she used the fingers of her right hand, blood would run down along the fingers of her right hand or the right hand, and pool in to void which was cerated in the fold of her right hand, and stain the corresponding portion of her nightdress - this is almost certainly what did take place, she used the fingers of her right hand to grasp the non fatal wound on the right side of her neck, and this was the source for why and how the triangular bloodstain on the upper right hand side of her nightdress, came into being...

You are not telling me that the police at the scene, (and Later) did not realize the significance of that triangular bloodstain on the top right hand side of her nightdress, and wonder how it got there?

It could not have got there, if Sheila used the fingers of her left hand, because there is no blood at all on her left hand, and there is no corresponding bloodstain on the top left hand side of the nightdress. or across her chest, to support such a suggestion. What we have got, if we believe or accept that the police found Sheila's body, as it is shown, undisturbed on the bedroom floor, by the side of the bed, with the gun upon the body, is an anomaly relating to the position of the triangular bloodstain on the upper right hand side of her nightdress, that cannot be reconciled with any idea that she took her own life and her right hand ended up on the gun in the region of the trigger, if it had been holding the wound site on the right hand side of her neck, after she was fatally shot, in the main bedroom?

I hope I am making myself clear to you, when I say this...

Please explain to me, if you can, how Sheila could have used the fingers of her right hand, to clutch at the wound on her throat and by the time she fell back onto the floor (if this is what you believe) and that her right hand fell so conveniently upon the rifle in the region of the trigger, as shown in the stage managed photographs?

There is no other explanation which could account for the presence of the triangular bloodstain which can be seen on the top upper right of Sheila's nightdress, other then, Sheila did use the fingers of her right hand to grasp at the wound on her neck / throat, and this took place before she was fatally shot under the chin, and this bears out the fact that Sheila was not shot twice in quick succession, as alleged by the prosecution during Jeremy's trial...

The triangular bloodstain on the upper part of Sheila's nightdress is not linked or associated with the fatal wound she inflicted upon herself under the chin in the bedroom - the blood runs in a totally different direction than the direction of the blood which can be seen to be leaking, and running, and pouring, from the two wounds upon her throat and neck...

Sheila was shot once downstairs, and once upstairs, and what is more, the police substituted the fragmented bullet (PV/20) which wounded her downstairs, for a whole bullet, (PV/20), so that the ballistic expert, could link both bullets, to the same gun...

I agree the blood could have got there that way, although there doesn't appear to be much blood on her right hand. There are those trickles around her right wrist though, so that could account for those.

If that is what happened, obviously she stopped holding the wound before she decided to shoot herself again. If it did happen, that scenario could apply whether she shot herself once in the kitchen or twice in the bedroom.

There is another explanation though. If you look at the picture of Sheila you'll see that she's lying in a very awkward position. Her legs are reasonably straight but her head is twisted to the right. I don't think that is the position she was in when she was shot - either by herself or another person. You wouldn't lie down like that if you were going to shoot yourself. It's possible that she was sitting up with her left side against the bed leaning slightly to the right, and she shot herself. The blood ran to the right and down over her nightdress. She then shoots herself again and this time succeeds and falls back and her head hits the cabinet and twists to her right. That's how her head might have ended up at the funny angle.

If someone else shot her then she almost certainly didn't put up her right hand to the first wound but the above scenario could still apply in theory.

I do agree that her position and the blood stain are very odd. Once things seems to be for sure. That blood did not run in that direction onto her nightdress when she was lying on the floor in that position - it would have gone down the side of her neck.

Whatever the truth, I do find it hard to believe that she just sat there whilst someone put a gun to her throat.

Was she at all drugged up or sedated or anything?


Offline Pete0001

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Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
« Reply #49 on: February 02, 2011, 10:24:PM »
Another point that strikes me is... For everyone to believe that it was suicide the shots to her neck would have to be fired at the right angle...

One wrongly angled shot and the idea that it was suicide is blown apart.

IF Jeremy had killed her to make it look like suicide it was a massive risk that he could get those shots right... surely not an easy task... one wrong shot, defence wounds etc and his plan is useless...

bb2010

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Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
« Reply #50 on: February 02, 2011, 10:34:PM »


This was looked at in some detail in 2003, and the suggestion that Sheila could have used the fingers of her left hand to put them at the wound on the right side of her neck or throat, would have resulted in a differently configured bloodstain on the opposite side of her nightdress - if she used the fingers of her right hand, blood would run down along the fingers of her right hand or the right hand, and pool in to void which was cerated in the fold of her right hand, and stain the corresponding portion of her nightdress - this is almost certainly what did take place, she used the fingers of her right hand to grasp the non fatal wound on the right side of her neck, and this was the source for why and how the triangular bloodstain on the upper right hand side of her nightdress, came into being...

You are not telling me that the police at the scene, (and Later) did not realize the significance of that triangular bloodstain on the top right hand side of her nightdress, and wonder how it got there?

It could not have got there, if Sheila used the fingers of her left hand, because there is no blood at all on her left hand, and there is no corresponding bloodstain on the top left hand side of the nightdress. or across her chest, to support such a suggestion. What we have got, if we believe or accept that the police found Sheila's body, as it is shown, undisturbed on the bedroom floor, by the side of the bed, with the gun upon the body, is an anomaly relating to the position of the triangular bloodstain on the upper right hand side of her nightdress, that cannot be reconciled with any idea that she took her own life and her right hand ended up on the gun in the region of the trigger, if it had been holding the wound site on the right hand side of her neck, after she was fatally shot, in the main bedroom?

I hope I am making myself clear to you, when I say this...

Please explain to me, if you can, how Sheila could have used the fingers of her right hand, to clutch at the wound on her throat and by the time she fell back onto the floor (if this is what you believe) and that her right hand fell so conveniently upon the rifle in the region of the trigger, as shown in the stage managed photographs?

There is no other explanation which could account for the presence of the triangular bloodstain which can be seen on the top upper right of Sheila's nightdress, other then, Sheila did use the fingers of her right hand to grasp at the wound on her neck / throat, and this took place before she was fatally shot under the chin, and this bears out the fact that Sheila was not shot twice in quick succession, as alleged by the prosecution during Jeremy's trial...

The triangular bloodstain on the upper part of Sheila's nightdress is not linked or associated with the fatal wound she inflicted upon herself under the chin in the bedroom - the blood runs in a totally different direction than the direction of the blood which can be seen to be leaking, and running, and pouring, from the two wounds upon her throat and neck...

Sheila was shot once downstairs, and once upstairs, and what is more, the police substituted the fragmented bullet (PV/20) which wounded her downstairs, for a whole bullet, (PV/20), so that the ballistic expert, could link both bullets, to the same gun...

I agree the blood could have got there that way, although there doesn't appear to be much blood on her right hand. There are those trickles around her right wrist though, so that could account for those.

If that is what happened, obviously she stopped holding the wound before she decided to shoot herself again. If it did happen, that scenario could apply whether she shot herself once in the kitchen or twice in the bedroom.

There is another explanation though. If you look at the picture of Sheila you'll see that she's lying in a very awkward position. Her legs are reasonably straight but her head is twisted to the right. I don't think that is the position she was in when she was shot - either by herself or another person. You wouldn't lie down like that if you were going to shoot yourself. It's possible that she was sitting up with her left side against the bed leaning slightly to the right, and she shot herself. The blood ran to the right and down over her nightdress. She then shoots herself again and this time succeeds and falls back and her head hits the cabinet and twists to her right. That's how her head might have ended up at the funny angle.

If someone else shot her then she almost certainly didn't put up her right hand to the first wound but the above scenario could still apply in theory.

I do agree that her position and the blood stain are very odd. Once things seems to be for sure. That blood did not run in that direction onto her nightdress when she was lying on the floor in that position - it would have gone down the side of her neck.

Whatever the truth, I do find it hard to believe that she just sat there whilst someone put a gun to her throat.

Was she at all drugged up or sedated or anything?


Sedation is mentioned in the 2002 Appeal paragraph 148

"Sheila Caffell, probably in a sedated state from her medication, was also shot in the bedroom. "

bb2010

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Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
« Reply #51 on: February 02, 2011, 10:36:PM »
Another point that strikes me is... For everyone to believe that it was suicide the shots to her neck would have to be fired at the right angle...

One wrongly angled shot and the idea that it was suicide is blown apart.

IF Jeremy had killed her to make it look like suicide it was a massive risk that he could get those shots right... surely not an easy task... one wrong shot, defence wounds etc and his plan is useless...

With reference to the last paragraph - the first shot wasn't right, the second one was?

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
« Reply #52 on: February 02, 2011, 10:37:PM »
Another point that strikes me is... For everyone to believe that it was suicide the shots to her neck would have to be fired at the right angle...

One wrongly angled shot and the idea that it was suicide is blown apart.

IF Jeremy had killed her to make it look like suicide it was a massive risk that he could get those shots right... surely not an easy task... one wrong shot, defence wounds etc and his plan is useless...

I agree, and it's one of the things which makes me doubt his guilt. It was a huge gamble. He couldn't be sure she would just sit there and let him do it.

Offline Pete0001

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Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
« Reply #53 on: February 02, 2011, 10:38:PM »
Wasn't right to kill her.. but could still have been of the correct angle..

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
« Reply #54 on: February 02, 2011, 10:41:PM »


This was looked at in some detail in 2003, and the suggestion that Sheila could have used the fingers of her left hand to put them at the wound on the right side of her neck or throat, would have resulted in a differently configured bloodstain on the opposite side of her nightdress - if she used the fingers of her right hand, blood would run down along the fingers of her right hand or the right hand, and pool in to void which was cerated in the fold of her right hand, and stain the corresponding portion of her nightdress - this is almost certainly what did take place, she used the fingers of her right hand to grasp the non fatal wound on the right side of her neck, and this was the source for why and how the triangular bloodstain on the upper right hand side of her nightdress, came into being...

You are not telling me that the police at the scene, (and Later) did not realize the significance of that triangular bloodstain on the top right hand side of her nightdress, and wonder how it got there?

It could not have got there, if Sheila used the fingers of her left hand, because there is no blood at all on her left hand, and there is no corresponding bloodstain on the top left hand side of the nightdress. or across her chest, to support such a suggestion. What we have got, if we believe or accept that the police found Sheila's body, as it is shown, undisturbed on the bedroom floor, by the side of the bed, with the gun upon the body, is an anomaly relating to the position of the triangular bloodstain on the upper right hand side of her nightdress, that cannot be reconciled with any idea that she took her own life and her right hand ended up on the gun in the region of the trigger, if it had been holding the wound site on the right hand side of her neck, after she was fatally shot, in the main bedroom?

I hope I am making myself clear to you, when I say this...

Please explain to me, if you can, how Sheila could have used the fingers of her right hand, to clutch at the wound on her throat and by the time she fell back onto the floor (if this is what you believe) and that her right hand fell so conveniently upon the rifle in the region of the trigger, as shown in the stage managed photographs?

There is no other explanation which could account for the presence of the triangular bloodstain which can be seen on the top upper right of Sheila's nightdress, other then, Sheila did use the fingers of her right hand to grasp at the wound on her neck / throat, and this took place before she was fatally shot under the chin, and this bears out the fact that Sheila was not shot twice in quick succession, as alleged by the prosecution during Jeremy's trial...

The triangular bloodstain on the upper part of Sheila's nightdress is not linked or associated with the fatal wound she inflicted upon herself under the chin in the bedroom - the blood runs in a totally different direction than the direction of the blood which can be seen to be leaking, and running, and pouring, from the two wounds upon her throat and neck...

Sheila was shot once downstairs, and once upstairs, and what is more, the police substituted the fragmented bullet (PV/20) which wounded her downstairs, for a whole bullet, (PV/20), so that the ballistic expert, could link both bullets, to the same gun...

I agree the blood could have got there that way, although there doesn't appear to be much blood on her right hand. There are those trickles around her right wrist though, so that could account for those.

If that is what happened, obviously she stopped holding the wound before she decided to shoot herself again. If it did happen, that scenario could apply whether she shot herself once in the kitchen or twice in the bedroom.

There is another explanation though. If you look at the picture of Sheila you'll see that she's lying in a very awkward position. Her legs are reasonably straight but her head is twisted to the right. I don't think that is the position she was in when she was shot - either by herself or another person. You wouldn't lie down like that if you were going to shoot yourself. It's possible that she was sitting up with her left side against the bed leaning slightly to the right, and she shot herself. The blood ran to the right and down over her nightdress. She then shoots herself again and this time succeeds and falls back and her head hits the cabinet and twists to her right. That's how her head might have ended up at the funny angle.

If someone else shot her then she almost certainly didn't put up her right hand to the first wound but the above scenario could still apply in theory.

I do agree that her position and the blood stain are very odd. Once things seems to be for sure. That blood did not run in that direction onto her nightdress when she was lying on the floor in that position - it would have gone down the side of her neck.

Whatever the truth, I do find it hard to believe that she just sat there whilst someone put a gun to her throat.

Was she at all drugged up or sedated or anything?
--------------------------------------------------------

Quite a bit of blood which had originally been present upon the fingers of Sheila's right hand were transferred at some point, onto the front lower part of her light blue nightdress, and might help to explain why there does not appear to be a significant amount of blood on the fingers of her right hand when it was photographed...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Pete0001

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Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
« Reply #55 on: February 02, 2011, 10:44:PM »
Wasn't right to kill her.. but could still have been of the correct angle..

What I mean is.. once the gun barrel passes a certain angle there would be serious doubt, even more doubt as to whether she could do that... also had the person that shot Sheila shot her elsewhere on her body or accidently misjudged the shots then the whole "make it look like suicide" plan would be ruined and leaves the gun person with a real big problem..... that's a massive gamble after having shot the whole family.. everything before those last shots to Sheila hinged on how authentic the shooter made those injuries appear.

Big gamble...

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
« Reply #56 on: February 02, 2011, 10:46:PM »



Sedation is mentioned in the 2002 Appeal paragraph 148

"Sheila Caffell, probably in a sedated state from her medication, was also shot in the bedroom. "

Hmmmmm, she was having injections of haloperidol I think. I did read that her dose had been reduced. I don't know how drowsy that would make her, but I'll have a read about that.

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
« Reply #57 on: February 02, 2011, 10:50:PM »


Quite a bit of blood which had originally been present upon the fingers of Sheila's right hand were transferred at some point, onto the front lower part of her light blue nightdress, and might help to explain why there does not appear to be a significant amount of blood on the fingers of her right hand when it was photographed...

I read something about a hand print on her nightdress. Didn't the prosecution try to introduce that as evidence at the 2002 appeal?

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
« Reply #58 on: February 02, 2011, 10:51:PM »
Wasn't right to kill her.. but could still have been of the correct angle..

What I mean is.. once the gun barrel passes a certain angle there would be serious doubt, even more doubt as to whether she could do that... also had the person that shot Sheila shot her elsewhere on her body or accidently misjudged the shots then the whole "make it look like suicide" plan would be ruined and leaves the gun person with a real big problem..... that's a massive gamble after having shot the whole family.. everything before those last shots to Sheila hinged on how authentic the shooter made those injuries appear.

Big gamble...

Absolutely - I agree.

Offline Tricksy

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Re: Sheila's right arm and right hand too flexible at time photographed...
« Reply #59 on: February 02, 2011, 10:59:PM »
Another point that strikes me is... For everyone to believe that it was suicide the shots to her neck would have to be fired at the right angle...

One wrongly angled shot and the idea that it was suicide is blown apart.

IF Jeremy had killed her to make it look like suicide it was a massive risk that he could get those shots right... surely not an easy task... one wrong shot, defence wounds etc and his plan is useless...

Hi. I'm a newbie. I remember this case when it happened. I have to say, that at this point I am not sure of Jeremy Baber's innocence or guilt, as I do believe I don't know enough about the case to make that judgement.

However, I do think that there is a legitimate claim for him to receive a new trial, what with details being withheld from the prosecution by the defence and the Police. The Police also seemed to have made several cock ups in the investigation.

I agree with your point re: Shelia. I read in the 2002 appeal that she was taking Haloperidol, by means of a monthly injection. I don't know much about this drug, but it would be interesting to know at what dosage she was taking it and any potential side affects.

I agree with what you said about Bamber having to have taken a hell of a risk to make it look like a suicide.

My question is regarding the gun/shootings. Now it is a given that Jeremy was a good shot with a gun. There is some debate as to whether or not Shelia had ever shot a gun. My question is, if any one on here has handled a gun, how easy do you think it would be to shoot and make it look like the person handling the gun was not experienced (if you actually were an experienced shooter)?

I may be barking up the wrong tree here or being incredibly dense, but I am someone who has never handled a gun, so I just wondered how easy this would be to stage?