Was Silencer fitted to gun resting at main bedroom Window?

[mike tesko]

Was a Silencer fitted to gun, that is resting up at the main bedroom Window?

Please click on image to enlarge...

[31Gr19l64Kw]

Mike is this the rifle and the position of rifle as stated being seen by a police officer from out side of white house farm  were they up a ladder,what time was it these photo's  were taken and what time was sun rise on 7th august 1985 is that window partially open,would you agree that if there is a moderator on that rifle and it is OEM its quite a long

[mike tesko]

Mike is this the rifle and the position of rifle as stated being seen by a police officer from out side of white house farm  were they up a ladder,what time was it these photo's  were taken and what time was sun rise on 7th august 1985 is that window partially open,would you agree that if there is a moderator on that rifle and it is OEM its quite a long

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31Gr19l64Kw:- Yes, a firearms instructor, WPC Julia Jeapes, reported that she could see what she believed was a rifle that was leaning up against the bedroom window, prior to her observing the raid team making its approach to the farmhouse, with a view of forcing an entry into the premises. WPC Jeapes was amongst a group of ten (10) firearms officers who arrived at the scene at 7am, along with two ambulances and their crews - she was deployed into the grounds around whf and she made that important observation at about 7:15am...

Bedroom window (fanlight) was partially open before police entered the building at around 7:30am...

If Silencer is fitted to the gun in the picture, of course this would extend the length of the rifles barrel, by six inches  - I am posting some images to show how an exact replica weapon with a silencer, could have been used by Sheila to shoot herself by use of it, so configured, despite the fact that during Jeremy's trial the prosecution alleged that with a silencer fitted to the guns barrel, the overall length of the weapon, so configured would have been much too long to allow Sheila an opportunity to kill herself by use of it, even if she had wanted to...

Experiments conducted in 2003, establish that the weapon with a silencer attached to the end of its barrel could have been used by Sheila to shoot herself, contrary to what the court was told by the prosecutions expert witnesses - in my opinion, the court was deceived over this point...

Please click on image to enlarge...

[Kaldin]

I think this business of the photo of the gun at the window is a bit of a red herring. In the other photo of the window the gun is not there, so that was presumably taken first. Then the police moved the gun from Sheila's body after they had taken photos of her with the gun on her body and propped it up by the window to get it out of the way - then another photo was taken of the room.

The real issue is whether the same gun was seen propped up at the window before the police entered the house. Would the gun be propped up at the window twice - put there once by Sheila and again later by the police? That seems a bit of a coincidence, so it's possible that the WPC was mistaken about when she saw the gun at the window and that she actually saw it later after the police put it there.

The most interesting thing about the photo of the gun is that it does raise the question of whether there was a silencer on it or not. It kind of looks as if the silencer is on there, but that could be a trick of the light, or shadows or the fact that the picture is not very clear.

To me, that room looks as if it had messed about with a lot between the photos, and in some ways it doesn't even look like the same room, but I guess it must be.

[Pete0001]

I think this is where a lot of the problem lies... Regardless of what we see here the evidence that is being questioned is did Jeremy bamber stage the body or did the Police.
There are photos of the gun against a window, the gun on the body and another of the gun on the body but in a position that would suggest suicide.

It would seem on the surface it's a lot easier to believe the gun was moved during the photograph taking and then replaced.

Also I would have thought that any firearms team entering a building would secure all weapons they come across... So would it not be normal for the fire arms officers entering the room to secure the rifle. After this happens there may have been varying accounts of how the gun was placed... As can be seen in the photographs.

[Kaldin]

I think this is where a lot of the problem lies... Regardless of what we see here the evidence that is being questioned is did Jeremy bamber stage the body or did the Police.
There are photos of the gun against a window, the gun on the body and another of the gun on the body but in a position that would suggest suicide.

It would seem on the surface it's a lot easier to believe the gun was moved during the photograph taking and then replaced.

Also I would have thought that any firearms team entering a building would secure all weapons they come across... So would it not be normal for the fire arms officers entering the room to secure the rifle. After this happens there may have been varying accounts of how the gun was placed... As can be seen in the photographs.

Yes. It's clear that the gun has been moved around in all the photos. Nobody seems to know if there's a photo which was taken of Sheila before anything was touched. It's therefore impossible to know what the position of the gun was when the police entered the bedroom, apart from eyewitness accounts from the first police officers who went in there. It's possible that the gun was not put by the window and then replaced on the body, but that it was moved on the body, and then placed against the window.

I don't know if any of the photos have a time stamp on them, but it would help.

I don't know how firearms teams work, but would it not make sense for one to go into the room with a gun and cover the officer who was checking out the room and the bodies? If so, once it had been established that Sheila was dead, there would be no need to move the gun at all until the proper photos had been taken.

[Pete0001]

I guess, my understanding, which is by no means as an expert, is that any weapon near or on a body would be secured before the room is declared "safe".

[Kaldin]

At the end of the day though, does it matter? If the police had messed with the scene, that would indicate a lack of professionalism, but it doesn't prove who killed all those people either way.

I believe that the gun was on or near Sheila's body when they got in - either because Sheila had killed herself or because Jeremy had done it and put the gun there. It makes no sense any other way. If Jeremy was trying to stitch up his sister, he wouldn't put the gun anywhere else. One can examine the photos in great detail, but it's clear that the gun was moved on the body between photos, and there's no way of knowing where it was exactly unless the police come up with a photo which they can prove was taken before anything was moved. Even if they do, what would that tell anyone?

In the last appeal, Jeremy tried several different ways to get the conviction thrown out on the grounds that the evidence had been tampered with. The judges pretty much agreed that things had not been done right but concluded that that didn't make the verdict unsafe. If he's going to try to convince them that the police deliberately framed him, I don't think that will work - I mean, what would be their motive in doing that?

I think it will be the same this time unless he can come up with something which really makes them think he didn't do it.

[Kaldin]

I guess, my understanding, which is by no means as an expert, is that any weapon near or on a body would be secured before the room is declared "safe".

You mean it would be moved away from the person holding it, even if that person appeared to be dead?

[Pete0001]

Yes.. thats my understanding. The firearms officer would "make safe" the weapon before determining wether someone was alive or dead.

Also I appreciate that non of this really determines who killed who and yes it stinks of a bad job by the authorities concerned but this case is hinging as much on proving Jeremy didn't do it as it is on showing that things were done wrong at the scene so over turning the decision is the right thing to do... the latter doesn't prove innocence just proves bad policing which in turn could mean an unfair trial through genuine mistakes or a stitch up.

I've read about this case for a good few years and always thought that there was something very wrong about the way Jeremy was convicted... but I can't prove his innocence, only have an opinion on what it looks like to me.

[Kaldin]

Yes.. thats my understanding. The firearms officer would "make safe" the weapon before determining wether someone was alive or dead.

Also I appreciate that non of this really determines who killed who and yes it stinks of a bad job by the authorities concerned but this case is hinging as much on proving Jeremy didn't do it as it is on showing that things were done wrong at the scene so over turning the decision is the right thing to do... the latter doesn't prove innocence just proves bad policing which in turn could mean an unfair trial through genuine mistakes or a stitch up.

I've read about this case for a good few years and always thought that there was something very wrong about the way Jeremy was convicted... but I can't prove his innocence, only have an opinion on what it looks like to me.

I don't think even the police would deny that it was badly handled, so if he's appealing on the grounds that they messed up the scene, I think he will lose again. In the last appeal there were several points relating to that, and it got him nowhere. The issue of the silencer and the blood in it was dealt with back then and it didn't change anything.

I also think there is room for doubt, but nobody has come up with one thing which will prove that the verdict was unsafe. I think the new evidence about the police logs will fail, and I think the new evidence about the mantlepiece will fail too. The issue of when and how the gun was moved will not work because, again, it will only show that the police messed things about.

The only thing which I think might make a difference so far is the photo of Sheila which does seem to indicate that the blood was still fresh and that she may have died later than previously thought.

[Pete0001]

In the last appeal, Jeremy tried several different ways to get the conviction thrown out on the grounds that the evidence had been tampered with. The judges pretty much agreed that things had not been done right but concluded that that didn't make the verdict unsafe. If he's going to try to convince them that the police deliberately framed him, I don't think that will work - I mean, what would be their motive in doing that?

I think it will be the same this time unless he can come up with something which really makes them think he didn't do it.

The other point thats hard understand is.. why would they do the staging of the bodies on that morning, the day of the incident. I understood it that Jeremy wasn't in the frame for the murders until sometime after the event and up until then suicide was the favoured opinion. So why stage the bodies... at that point no one was considering Jeremy as a suspect.
The staging suggests they where trying to hide a mistake they had made in disturbing the scene. But again... this unfortunatly doesn't help Jeremys case to prove he didn't do it... just clouds the water

[Pete0001]

Cross posts... you;ve answered majority of points in above post ta!

[Kaldin]

In the last appeal, Jeremy tried several different ways to get the conviction thrown out on the grounds that the evidence had been tampered with. The judges pretty much agreed that things had not been done right but concluded that that didn't make the verdict unsafe. If he's going to try to convince them that the police deliberately framed him, I don't think that will work - I mean, what would be their motive in doing that?

I think it will be the same this time unless he can come up with something which really makes them think he didn't do it.

The other point thats hard understand is.. why would they do the staging of the bodies on that morning, the day of the incident. I understood it that Jeremy wasn't in the frame for the murders until sometime after the event and up until then suicide was the favoured opinion. So why stage the bodies... at that point no one was considering Jeremy as a suspect.
The staging suggests they where trying to hide a mistake they had made in disturbing the scene. But again... this unfortunatly doesn't help Jeremys case to prove he didn't do it... just clouds the water

Exactly. The police at the time accepted that Sheila had done it, so they had no motive to stage the scene to frame Jeremy. They might not even have been trying to cover up mistakes - perhaps they just accepted Sheila had done it, moved things around without taking much care, and then took photos just for their official records. They couldn't have known at the time that would lead to a man going to prison for ever, or that they would be called on years and years later to explain their actions.

Jeremy can say all he likes that the police moved this, or the police moved that, but I doubt very much that an appeal court will change the verdict based on that.

Of course it helps for the defence to get all the photographic evidence and other evidence so they can have a fair chance, but trying to imply the police stitched Jeremy up will get them nowhere IMO.

[Pete0001]

Yes... this is where I think it gets very difficult to uncover the WHOLE truth. Maybe the Police thought they had got it wrong and with family and ex girlfriends coming forward with stories of how guilty Jeremy looked it was actually fairly easy to put him in the frame. Buy editting a few bits here and there and with holding photographs they were able to paint quite a damning picture of what took place.

When you lay the cold hard facts out on the table it is hard to believe they could convict a man to life in prison based on what is there.

Of all the murders the father struggled the most... surely Jeremy would have shown signs of this struggle... (had they been looking for signs.. probably not given that it all appeared open and closed).

There's soo many little pieces that don't make sense unless its all calculated. Sheila didn't get on with the stepmother and this would seem apparent in the amount of shots she fired at her? Her children only sustained one shot each?
Its hard to believe the amount of moving Sheila did after supposedly shooting herself non fatally.