Author Topic: Witness statement of DCS Harris, consisting of 4 pages, dated, 19th September  (Read 2969 times)

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Offline mike tesko

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Witness statement of DCS Harris, consisting of 4 pages, dated, 19th September 1985:-

All 4 pages signed by him...
« Last Edit: October 09, 2011, 06:14:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline smiffy

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So folks  much evidence must be wrong....or is it.

Harris claims to arrive at whf at 7.39 am.
He clearly describes being in the cattle shedbarn with other officers prior to the raid team breaking open the door and entering the house.
Obviously getting out of the police car and going into the cattle shed would take a few minutes so the claim in the 2002 appeal that the Police entered the house at 7.45 am ties up with Harris timing.

Clearly the court believes Harris.

If there is any evidence that indicates an error in this timing then the court was misled and in error.
If this wrong timing can be proven by an abundance of evidence to be wrong then it could be contended that there was a deliberate plot to conceal the real time the raid team entered and that the raid team were in the house for far longer than considered normal.


There seems to be a general agreement of when the raid team finished their search which Harris gives as 8.13 am.

The problem that Harris faces is that his arrival at whf time appears to be at least 15 minutes out if not more ....but his correct time of the leaving the house after the search would dispel any hints of it beinga timepiece he used being in error.

Harris obviously with such a serious incident as this was would have been paying more attention than normal so mistakes should be far less likely.
So if Harris is in error the chances of it being a mistake are reduced which strengthens the argument that Harris deliberately gave a false time of arrival from which the time the raid team were in the house was calculated. This an excessively long search appears by a reduction of 15 minutes to be far more credible thus removing the likelyhood of an incident taking place in the house as being the reason for the excessive amount of time the raid team were in there.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 11:56:AM by smiffy »

Offline smiffy

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So relying on Harris claim about the time he arrived leading to the 7.45 raid team entry time.

Obviously the 2002 appeal shows this 7.45 time is what the conviction is based on. The Dickenson report...also uses this 7.45 raid team entry time.

From what is available it seems only Harris is the source.

Many police officers give no time for when the raid team entered but some officers involved do.

So against Harris ....directly mentioning the time we have Adams stating 7.30 am. We have Dermott and Delgado both saying about 7.30 am and  Gibbons saying about 7.35 am.

Harris' claim now seems to be up against a lot of opposition .
It gets worse though for him as radio logs and indirect claims from which the raid team entry being before 7.45  combine to prove beyond any doubt that Harris claim is wrong and thus the court's claims are wrong and the Dickenson report is utter trash as many have contended.



Offline smiffy

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Another officer gave evidence in court which supports a raid team entry time of 7.30 am .
When being examined a question was put to him in which it stated the raid team entered a little before 7.30am. Myall agreed that this was the case.

It seems somewhat perverse in the light of this that the 7.45 am time for the raid team entering the house is the official story.

With so much contradicting evidence in various statements and phone and radio logs that Harris claimed time and events were seriously in error. It seems incredible that at no time during preperation fo paperwork by police and cps that this error was not picked up on and Harris challenged and accepting it was wrong.  One does wonder then if there was a deliberate course of action to conceal the true time of entry by the raid team through not disclosing or editing of statements etc.
The chances of it being an error and pure chance it was not picked up look very slim indeed which adds weight to the views that the claim of arriving at 7.39am by Harris was a deliberate lie.

Hartley

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7:45 is not the official time of entry, the information log states 7:34-7:36 and Wests log states 7:40, which is consistent with the delay between the information room passing that information to West.

There are three paragraphs in the 2002 Appeal Judgement which talk about the time of entry, paragraphs 8, 32 and 239.


8. When the police attended at the farm, they were joined by the appellant. There was no sound from the farm save for the barking of a dog and fearing that they might be in a hostage situation the police decided to wait until daylight. At about 7.45 a.m., armed officers entered the farm and found all 5 occupants dead from gunshot wounds. Mr. Bamber lay dead in the kitchen, his wife was dead on the floor in her bedroom, the boys were dead in their bed and Sheila Caffell was lying on the floor of the same room as her mother. Across her chest and pointing up at her neck, through which the wounds that had killed her had been fired, was the rifle used to shoot all five members of the family. Beside her body lay a Bible. The scene certainly gave the appearance that Sheila Caffell had shot herself, and the likelihood that this was the case was reinforced by information given to the police by the appellant.


32. Reconnaissance of the farmhouse revealed all the doors to be shut, as were the windows save for one in the main bedroom on the first floor. At about 7.30 a.m., the decision was made to enter the farmhouse and not long afterwards officers moved into place. Through the kitchen window, an officer observed the body of what appeared to be a woman but was in fact Mr. Bamber. Entry was then forced through the rear door which had been locked from the inside.

239. We have considered with great care the statements of PC Collins and PC Delgado who must have been the two officers who entered first at about 7.30 a.m. on the 7 August. PC Collins in a statement of the same date describes forcing an entry into the house and seeing the body of a male person positioned over an upturned chair, which balanced against a cupboard. Having described that person and concluding that he was dead he said:
"On looking around the kitchen I saw upturned chairs and stools and broken crockery on the floor, and on the floor on the far side of the room there were small spots of what appeared to be blood. It appeared that a violent struggle had taken place within this room".PC Delgado made a similar statement.

The full Judgement can be viewed here: http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2002/2912.html


As you can see, you have picked on paragraph 8 which gives an "about" time of entry and discovery of bodies, and that is entirely consistent with the logs.
Paragraph 32 is also consistent with the logs giving a time of "about" 7:30 that the decision was made to enter.
And paragraph 239 is referencing the statements of the firearms team members and is also consistent give or take a few minutes.

What is inconsistent with the other documents is that Harris arrived at 7:39 and he says the firearms team were preparing to enter the premises, because at that time the search would have commenced a few minutes before.

But we are talking about a few minutes, not 15, and whilst you may declare all of this as evidence of lying and manipulation of evidence, quite frankly, I don't.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 02:18:PM by Hartley »

Offline smiffy

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Harris clearly lied...his evidence was clearly false and misleading.

7.30 to 8.13 = 43 minutes for the raid team search.
7.45 to 8.13 = 28 minutes for the search.
15 minutes difference is  over a 50% increase over the wrongly attributed time for the search.

As both the court and Dickenson reports use the 7.45 time with no foundation they are flawed.

A lot can happen in 5 minutes...  twice as much in 10 minutes  and 3 times as much in 15 minutes.

How long did it take recent killer to kill his victim by strangling  ...20 seconds...
it matters very much.

Hartley

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Harris clearly lied...his evidence was clearly false and misleading.

7.30 to 8.13 = 43 minutes for the raid team search.
7.45 to 8.13 = 28 minutes for the search.
15 minutes difference is  over a 50% increase over the wrongly attributed time for the search.

As both the court and Dickenson reports use the 7.45 time with no foundation they are flawed.

A lot can happen in 5 minutes...  twice as much in 10 minutes  and 3 times as much in 15 minutes.

How long did it take recent killer to kill his victim by strangling  ...20 seconds...
it matters very much.

I've just answered all of that above, simply repeating it doesn't do anything.

Offline smiffy

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Adams (to the COLP)claimed he could not say whether Harris arrived prior to the raid team entering OR whether it was after but then claims conflictingly that he was there prior to the raid team entering.

Adams was forced to stay on the fence on this issue so was clearly aware it was an issue.
By declaring anything as being solidly correct or incorrect then it would be a declaration that Harris gave false evidence one way or the other.

Offline smiffy

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Miller claims the raid team entered at 7.40 am.

chochokeira

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Harris clearly lied...his evidence was clearly false and misleading.

7.30 to 8.13 = 43 minutes for the raid team search.
7.45 to 8.13 = 28 minutes for the search.
15 minutes difference is  over a 50% increase over the wrongly attributed time for the search.

As both the court and Dickenson reports use the 7.45 time with no foundation they are flawed.

A lot can happen in 5 minutes...  twice as much in 10 minutes  and 3 times as much in 15 minutes.

How long did it take recent killer to kill his victim by strangling  ...20 seconds...
it matters very much.


Good points, Smiffy +1

Offline smiffy

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Ivor Norman made a radio log entry timed at 7.38 am .
It detailed one body male and one body female found on entry.

Harris is referred to by Ch Supt Divisional as requested to attend and its noted that he is on his way.

Oh dear, 
Obviously Harris was still on his way to the scene at this time...maybe he did arrive at 7.39 am ....but if so he is blatantly lying his stinking head off claiming it was before the raid team entered the house.
One can thus understand that if Adams also knew this he knew he had to be careful not to perjure himself and sit on the fence with claimed memory problems in which he cannot remember things...hmm
No wonder Adams would not lay his neck on the line and say for definite whether Harris was or was not present when the raid team made their entry.

Offline smiffy

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A close look at the radio log of what Ivor Norman recorded at 7.38 am.

This was a message received from the scene. Gibbons statement of 23rd sept 1985 indicates that he caused the message to be sent making a number of requests.
So the requests made by Gibbons should be the same as those documented in the log. Gibbons lists 4 correctly in his statement that ties up with the radio message log. however one request is missing and that is the one that covers Ch Supt Divisional (ie Harris). Obviously Gibbons would not make such a request if Harris was already with him...which he was not.
One does then wonder if Gibbons in his  statement has missed out this request that was part of the message as he knew it could expose the falseness of Harris claims.  By ommiting this part he has concealed that Harris was indeed not present.

After dealing with the message sending the very next part of his statement throws in Harris as attending at the scene though it does not deal with when he arrived. One wonders if his name was thrown in at this stage to complete the deception and mask over the issue by allowing for the impression that Harris could have been present when the message was sent.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 12:48:PM by smiffy »

Offline smiffy

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Lets look at travelling times between Chelmsford Police station and the scene of the incident WHF.

Harris claims to arrive at the scene at the specific time of 7.39 am.

We know from other several other  records he was driven there by PC Reed in car CA2 and it left Chelmsford at 7.05 am.

This gives us a travelling time of 34 minutes.

I wonder what time it took many others to travel between the 2 locations.

Some times we can work out from statements as the journey taking about 30 minutes or a bit more.
ie claims the intitial firearms team set off from Chelmsford at about 4.30 am and arrived at WHF about 5.00am ...  seems fair enough but is it?...
could some little pieces of deception be creeping in here by these vague claims about times?...
Davidson's journey seems to take 32 minutes (though 2 times of him leaving Chelmsford appear to be given)..

In the light of these times ...Harris taking 34 minutes to get to WHF seems credible and his arrival time seems credible.

Were some documents not disclosed or easily understood that may shoot the travelling times down a bit.
If we look at Bonnets log for the initial firearms team then the times are two vehicles at 21 minutes  and one at 23 minutes....these are for van type vehicles (crewbus?).

So now it appears that Davidsons and Harris's claimed travelling times start to appear to be too long.
it also appears that the 30 minutes travelling time people would assume to be the case for the firearms team is misleading..

We should be looking for a typical travelling time of about  20 minutes  and not 30 minutes.

If we apply the true travelling time as per Bonnets log...to Harris leaving Chelmsford time at 7.05 then we have Harris arriving at WHF before the raid team entered the house ...typically at scene about 7.25 am.
Which begs the question if correct as to why Harris gives a totally wrong time of arrival?

Offline smiffy

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The later firearms teams to arrive at whf travelling from Chelmsford according to the radio log entries took 19 minutes to arrive there..fully conversant with the about 20 minutes time estimate worked out from other records for others.

however the entries regarding Harris are very puzzling and contradict other records as well as themselves on the radio log.

Offline smiffy

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Woodcock's statement seems to be in some conflict with DCS Harris account.
Woodcock makes no mention of taking Harris around the house at any time.
Woodcock claims to show Gibbons and Dr Craig around the house starting at 8.40 am. No mention of Harris at all.

Why would Gibbons need to be shown the bodies by Harris 20 odd minutes before  Woodcock shows Gibbons and Dr Craig the bodies?


After DCI Jones arrives on scene , Woodcock claims to take him on a tour of the house to view the bodies. Again no mention of Harris being present and likewise in all Harris claims there is no mention of Woodcock on these tours of the house to view bodies.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 11:58:AM by smiffy »