Author Topic: If no-one disturbed anything - how did police enter the kitchen?  (Read 8227 times)

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Hartley

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Re: If no-one disturbed anything - how did police enter the kitchen?
« Reply #60 on: July 22, 2011, 02:30:PM »
Working on the basis that Nevill was sent toppling out of the chair,when the police smashed the door down,I wonder if this is how Nevill sustained some of his injuries?For instance,the black eyes or cracked skull.

Where does that basis come from though?

tyler

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Re: If no-one disturbed anything - how did police enter the kitchen?
« Reply #61 on: July 22, 2011, 02:36:PM »
Because I fail to see why ANY killer would leave Nevill in the position in which he was found.Particularly with his head in a coal scuttle.If he had fallen in to that position whilst dying,then surely there would have been some injuries or at least marks to his face from the coal scuttle?Also,why would any killer bother to place cushions and clothing etc to stem the flow of blood on the floor?

Hartley

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Re: If no-one disturbed anything - how did police enter the kitchen?
« Reply #62 on: July 22, 2011, 02:44:PM »
Because I fail to see why ANY killer would leave Nevill in the position in which he was found.Particularly with his head in a coal scuttle.If he had fallen in to that position whilst dying,then surely there would have been some injuries or at least marks to his face from the coal scuttle?Also,why would any killer bother to place cushions and clothing etc to stem the flow of blood on the floor?

Okay I understand that, but why if that was the case would the police not have mentioned it? It doesn't make sense. In addition to which, he could not have ended up where he was from being behind the door and only being knocked over upon entry, this distance from the door is too far.

Whilst wer'e being speculative, is it not possible that the murderer (whoever that may be) moved Ralph himself prior to placing the silencer in the gun cupboard in the den?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 02:56:PM by Hartley »

tyler

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Re: If no-one disturbed anything - how did police enter the kitchen?
« Reply #63 on: July 22, 2011, 02:50:PM »
In answer to that - the police failed to mention alot of things,didnt they?

And I personally dont believe that whoever was responsible for the murders,placed the silencer in the cupboard.

Offline curiousessex

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Re: If no-one disturbed anything - how did police enter the kitchen?
« Reply #64 on: July 22, 2011, 02:52:PM »
Because I fail to see why ANY killer would leave Nevill in the position in which he was found.Particularly with his head in a coal scuttle.If he had fallen in to that position whilst dying,then surely there would have been some injuries or at least marks to his face from the coal scuttle?Also,why would any killer bother to place cushions and clothing etc to stem the flow of blood on the floor?

Okay I understand that, but why if that was the case would the police not have mentioned it? It doesn't make sense. In addition to which, he could not have ended up where he was from being behind the door and only being knocked over upon entry, this distance from the door is too far.

Whilst where being speculative, is it not possible that the murderer (whoever that may be) moved Ralph himself prior to placing the silencer in the gun cupboard in the den?

Is it possible that the silencer was not in the gun cupboard on the morning of 7th August when the police gained entry. Maybe the silencer was placed in the gun cupboard after it had been searched by the police who have stated they found nothing.

As NGB has stated the police are trained to do these type of things so surely it would be most unlikely for them to have missed the silencer in the gun cupboard only to be found by relatives at a later date.

tyler

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Re: If no-one disturbed anything - how did police enter the kitchen?
« Reply #65 on: July 22, 2011, 03:01:PM »
I agree Curious.The police surely would have had to do a thorough search regarding all of the weapons in order to make them safe.I dont believe that there was any silencer in that cupboard on the morning of the murders.It has always been my belief that the police took away a silencer on the morning of the murders,though where it was found,I would not know.

Offline HMEssex

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Re: If no-one disturbed anything - how did police enter the kitchen?
« Reply #66 on: July 22, 2011, 10:50:PM »
Because I fail to see why ANY killer would leave Nevill in the position in which he was found.Particularly with his head in a coal scuttle.If he had fallen in to that position whilst dying,then surely there would have been some injuries or at least marks to his face from the coal scuttle?Also,why would any killer bother to place cushions and clothing etc to stem the flow of blood on the floor?

Okay I understand that, but why if that was the case would the police not have mentioned it? It doesn't make sense. In addition to which, he could not have ended up where he was from being behind the door and only being knocked over upon entry, this distance from the door is too far.

Whilst wer'e being speculative, is it not possible that the murderer (whoever that may be) moved Ralph himself prior to placing the silencer in the gun cupboard in the den?




It doesn't make sense why the murderer would have placed him in that position either - seated on an upturned chair, head on coal scuttle.  More likely it was by the police who knocked him over when entering kitchen.

Plus, Neville already had one black eye after being hit by Peter Eaton.

Offline mike tesko

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Re: If no-one disturbed anything - how did police enter the kitchen?
« Reply #67 on: July 23, 2011, 02:54:PM »
Because I fail to see why ANY killer would leave Nevill in the position in which he was found.Particularly with his head in a coal scuttle.If he had fallen in to that position whilst dying,then surely there would have been some injuries or at least marks to his face from the coal scuttle?Also,why would any killer bother to place cushions and clothing etc to stem the flow of blood on the floor?

Okay I understand that, but why if that was the case would the police not have mentioned it? It doesn't make sense. In addition to which, he could not have ended up where he was from being behind the door and only being knocked over upon entry, this distance from the door is too far.

Whilst wer'e being speculative, is it not possible that the murderer (whoever that may be) moved Ralph himself prior to placing the silencer in the gun cupboard in the den?




It doesn't make sense why the murderer would have placed him in that position either - seated on an upturned chair, head on coal scuttle.  More likely it was by the police who knocked him over when entering kitchen.

Plus, Neville already had one black eye after being hit by Peter Eaton.
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If Ralph was toppled over by anybody and his face and head fell into the rim of that metal coal bucket I would have expected there to have been some injuries as a result, but according to the pathologist, none existed or were caused?

This leads me to conclude that somebody simply rested Ralph's head in the coal bucket with a view to preventing blood going all over the place on the kitchen floor - it would be more likely that the police were responsible for doing this, not Sheila, or any would be as yet unidentified killer...

If police moved Ralph's head into that metal bucket, then the scene was stage managed by the police, and PC Birds photographs do not show how the scene was found when the firearms officers went into the Kitchen, they are only a record of what the kitchen scene was like at the time PC Bird took his pictures (there is a major difference which was not necessarily explained to the jury)...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Newbury1

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Re: If no-one disturbed anything - how did police enter the kitchen?
« Reply #68 on: July 28, 2011, 12:24:PM »
I am still amazed at the work of the Defence Team (DT) at trial. It is virtually inconceivable that the murderer would have placed NB's body in that bizarre position.

If NB had fallen from the chair shortly after death his body would still be relaxed and he would have sprawled on the floor and the murderer would have simply left him there (why move the body and get covered in blood).

I for one am totally convinced that NB died sitting in the arm chair that was positioned behind the door EP eventually entered the kitchen by.

Surely the DT could have made more of this, in that NB's body has in someway been moved some time after he died (as indicated by the rig. mort. that has clearly set in).

For the murderer to have placed NB like that and then place his head in a coal scuttle is just ridiculous.

I assume the jury (and the DT) saw this photo (in full) and did not question what they saw?
----------------

I do not think this picture was available to the court at the time the trial took place...

we now know, for example, that Essex police produced an edited photographs schedule which claimed that there only existed 223 pictures that had been taken in connection with this investigation, these were referred to as (1) THE MASTER COPY ALBUM and the crown had 50 of these produced in another album that was for use at the trial, which became known or referred to as (2) THE COURT ALBUM and these were the pictures which the jury had access to...

Whilst all along, there existed a third album which consisted of 358 pictures, that was kept under lock and key inside ACC peter Simpson's office safe, which were known as (3) THE SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM

The picture posted on this thread, was not provided for the attention of the court, but was locked away under lock and key in ACC Peter Simpson's safe, unfortunately...

I will be posting evidence of the first two photographic albums in due course for the attention of those interested, and to facilitate debate...

Mike - Can you confirm whether this picture of NB was shown to the Jury at trial or not. This is quite a significant thing (to me).

If this picture was available at trial then more should have been made of it by the DT.

If this picture of NB was not available at trial, as you suggest above, what did the Jury see?

If this picture of NB came to light later than trial, what has been made of it with the various appeals?

On one hand there has been a lot made of the stage management of SC, with some explanation from EP as to why SC's hand has moved, but this photo of NB gives more emphasis on someone having moved his body after death IMO.


 

Newbury1

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Re: If no-one disturbed anything - how did police enter the kitchen?
« Reply #69 on: July 29, 2011, 01:13:PM »
I am still amazed at the work of the Defence Team (DT) at trial. It is virtually inconceivable that the murderer would have placed NB's body in that bizarre position.

If NB had fallen from the chair shortly after death his body would still be relaxed and he would have sprawled on the floor and the murderer would have simply left him there (why move the body and get covered in blood).

I for one am totally convinced that NB died sitting in the arm chair that was positioned behind the door EP eventually entered the kitchen by.

Surely the DT could have made more of this, in that NB's body has in someway been moved some time after he died (as indicated by the rig. mort. that has clearly set in).

For the murderer to have placed NB like that and then place his head in a coal scuttle is just ridiculous.

I assume the jury (and the DT) saw this photo (in full) and did not question what they saw?
----------------

I do not think this picture was available to the court at the time the trial took place...

we now know, for example, that Essex police produced an edited photographs schedule which claimed that there only existed 223 pictures that had been taken in connection with this investigation, these were referred to as (1) THE MASTER COPY ALBUM and the crown had 50 of these produced in another album that was for use at the trial, which became known or referred to as (2) THE COURT ALBUM and these were the pictures which the jury had access to...

Whilst all along, there existed a third album which consisted of 358 pictures, that was kept under lock and key inside ACC peter Simpson's office safe, which were known as (3) THE SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM

The picture posted on this thread, was not provided for the attention of the court, but was locked away under lock and key in ACC Peter Simpson's safe, unfortunately...

I will be posting evidence of the first two photographic albums in due course for the attention of those interested, and to facilitate debate...

Mike - Can you confirm whether this picture of NB was shown to the Jury at trial or not. This is quite a significant thing (to me).

If this picture was available at trial then more should have been made of it by the DT.

If this picture of NB was not available at trial, as you suggest above, what did the Jury see?

If this picture of NB came to light later than trial, what has been made of it with the various appeals?

On one hand there has been a lot made of the stage management of SC, with some explanation from EP as to why SC's hand has moved, but this photo of NB gives more emphasis on someone having moved his body after death IMO.

Does anyone else share my points above?

I was just wondering if anyone could comment (as Mike has not yet answered) before I go on my two week hols  :)

Offline smiffy

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Re: If no-one disturbed anything - how did police enter the kitchen?
« Reply #70 on: July 29, 2011, 01:24:PM »
I am still amazed at the work of the Defence Team (DT) at trial. It is virtually inconceivable that the murderer would have placed NB's body in that bizarre position.

If NB had fallen from the chair shortly after death his body would still be relaxed and he would have sprawled on the floor and the murderer would have simply left him there (why move the body and get covered in blood).

I for one am totally convinced that NB died sitting in the arm chair that was positioned behind the door EP eventually entered the kitchen by.

Surely the DT could have made more of this, in that NB's body has in someway been moved some time after he died (as indicated by the rig. mort. that has clearly set in).

For the murderer to have placed NB like that and then place his head in a coal scuttle is just ridiculous.

I assume the jury (and the DT) saw this photo (in full) and did not question what they saw?
----------------

I do not think this picture was available to the court at the time the trial took place...

we now know, for example, that Essex police produced an edited photographs schedule which claimed that there only existed 223 pictures that had been taken in connection with this investigation, these were referred to as (1) THE MASTER COPY ALBUM and the crown had 50 of these produced in another album that was for use at the trial, which became known or referred to as (2) THE COURT ALBUM and these were the pictures which the jury had access to...

Whilst all along, there existed a third album which consisted of 358 pictures, that was kept under lock and key inside ACC peter Simpson's office safe, which were known as (3) THE SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM

The picture posted on this thread, was not provided for the attention of the court, but was locked away under lock and key in ACC Peter Simpson's safe, unfortunately...

I will be posting evidence of the first two photographic albums in due course for the attention of those interested, and to facilitate debate...

Mike - Can you confirm whether this picture of NB was shown to the Jury at trial or not. This is quite a significant thing (to me).

If this picture was available at trial then more should have been made of it by the DT.

If this picture of NB was not available at trial, as you suggest above, what did the Jury see?

If this picture of NB came to light later than trial, what has been made of it with the various appeals?

On one hand there has been a lot made of the stage management of SC, with some explanation from EP as to why SC's hand has moved, but this photo of NB gives more emphasis on someone having moved his body after death IMO.

Does anyone else share my points above?

I was just wondering if anyone could comment (as Mike has not yet answered) before I go on my two week hols  :)

In my view it shows Neville's body position was moved and staged...and that by showing such an obviously staged body it could have risked others bodies also being viewed as being moved and staged in the minds of the jury and this would have undermined the prosecution case.
So every reason to conceal this evidence from the jury if they wanted to get a conviction regardless of the truth to cover up what really happened.

Newbury1

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Re: If no-one disturbed anything - how did police enter the kitchen?
« Reply #71 on: July 29, 2011, 01:41:PM »
I am still amazed at the work of the Defence Team (DT) at trial. It is virtually inconceivable that the murderer would have placed NB's body in that bizarre position.

If NB had fallen from the chair shortly after death his body would still be relaxed and he would have sprawled on the floor and the murderer would have simply left him there (why move the body and get covered in blood).

I for one am totally convinced that NB died sitting in the arm chair that was positioned behind the door EP eventually entered the kitchen by.

Surely the DT could have made more of this, in that NB's body has in someway been moved some time after he died (as indicated by the rig. mort. that has clearly set in).

For the murderer to have placed NB like that and then place his head in a coal scuttle is just ridiculous.

I assume the jury (and the DT) saw this photo (in full) and did not question what they saw?
----------------

I do not think this picture was available to the court at the time the trial took place...

we now know, for example, that Essex police produced an edited photographs schedule which claimed that there only existed 223 pictures that had been taken in connection with this investigation, these were referred to as (1) THE MASTER COPY ALBUM and the crown had 50 of these produced in another album that was for use at the trial, which became known or referred to as (2) THE COURT ALBUM and these were the pictures which the jury had access to...

Whilst all along, there existed a third album which consisted of 358 pictures, that was kept under lock and key inside ACC peter Simpson's office safe, which were known as (3) THE SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM

The picture posted on this thread, was not provided for the attention of the court, but was locked away under lock and key in ACC Peter Simpson's safe, unfortunately...

I will be posting evidence of the first two photographic albums in due course for the attention of those interested, and to facilitate debate...

Mike - Can you confirm whether this picture of NB was shown to the Jury at trial or not. This is quite a significant thing (to me).

If this picture was available at trial then more should have been made of it by the DT.

If this picture of NB was not available at trial, as you suggest above, what did the Jury see?

If this picture of NB came to light later than trial, what has been made of it with the various appeals?

On one hand there has been a lot made of the stage management of SC, with some explanation from EP as to why SC's hand has moved, but this photo of NB gives more emphasis on someone having moved his body after death IMO.

Does anyone else share my points above?

I was just wondering if anyone could comment (as Mike has not yet answered) before I go on my two week hols  :)

In my view it shows Neville's body position was moved and staged...and that by showing such an obviously staged body it could have risked others bodies also being viewed as being moved and staged in the minds of the jury and this would have undermined the prosecution case.
So every reason to conceal this evidence from the jury if they wanted to get a conviction regardless of the truth to cover up what really happened.

Smiffy, thanks for the reply.

I agree that it shows NB's body moved well after death (rig mort) and placed so strangely that I cannot believe the murderer did it - if it was not shown at trial why has this photo not been used in JB's defence since - or has it, and what was the official response - anybody know?

I'm off on hols now  ;) yippee

Hartley

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Re: If no-one disturbed anything - how did police enter the kitchen?
« Reply #72 on: July 29, 2011, 02:57:PM »
Photographs of Nevill were given to the defence during the original trial.

Offline mike tesko

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Re: If no-one disturbed anything - how did police enter the kitchen?
« Reply #73 on: July 30, 2011, 04:45:PM »
Photographs of Nevill were given to the defence during the original trial.
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Not the one showing the cushions, towel and cotton trousers around the coal bucket with Ralph's head in it...

It is an unnumbered photograph, so it obviously did not appear as part of the court album, or the 223 photographs which formed part of the so called master copy album...

Essex police and the CPS/DPP would not have dared disclose that picture to the defense, or to the court, otherwise all hell would have broken loose and the police would have had to give a thorough account to explain how any would be killer would have gone to such extremes as to stage manage Ralph Bambers body in the kitchen, and arrange all manner of other exhibits around his body, and around the coal; bucket?

Do me a favour...

All of these cushions, and the towel and the cotton trousers would have surely been exhibits in the case?

Yet, none of them were - nobody knows what the hell happened to any of these exhibits, and strangely enough not one police officer commented upon them being placed like that when the armed police officers got into the kitchen, or later - can you imagine that, not one police officer, or scenes of crime officer said anything at all about all or any of these items, it did not raise any suspicions in their minds that something was afoot here, or there?

Its as though all these exhibits (Cushions, towel and cotton trousers) just vanished into thin air and nobody wanted to speak about them but to me they were significant items in the investigation which warranted an explanation, that could shed light on the correctness or otherwise of Jeremy Bambers convictions...

If this picture had been disclosed before the trial, or at the trial, Jeremy's legal team would have moved heaven and earth to find out all they could about these missing items that somebody placed on the kitchen floor around the coal bucket...

If anything...

The accountability and disappearance of these items and the fact that police make absolutely no reference to them at all, in any witness statement, police pocketbook or report, should be enough to get the conses convictions quashed on any honest and fair appeal...

Unless, the police case was corrupt and his prosecution was a dishonest one, carried out in a dishonest court room...

Then again, if the jury were not told about the existence of these crucial exhibits, then one can see why they could have been. and were fooled into convicting Jeremy on the basis that he killed everyone including his sister, and that he stage managed the scene to make it appear like that, when all along it was the police who did the stage managing...
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 05:49:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: If no-one disturbed anything - how did police enter the kitchen?
« Reply #74 on: July 30, 2011, 05:51:PM »
What happened to the missing exhibits (Cushions, towel, and the pair of cotton trousers)?

Why weren't any of these crucial exhibits ever given any exhibit reference, or referred to in any police statement, pocketbook entry or report?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2011, 05:54:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...